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#26 2012-01-17 16:23:40

louis
Member
From: UK
Registered: 2008-03-24
Posts: 3,939

Re: Mars Economic Activity

SpaceNut wrote:

I see a trend I all of the economy threads thus far and its all one way back to Earth bound investment and profits of those on Earth.
What about these other directions for investment or profit to be had....
What about the wages of the settlers?

Well let's limit this to the first 20 years. We will be doing well if we have 1,000 people there by then.  If they each earn say $50,000 per annum (plenty of money, since nearly all their living expenses will be covered) we are still only talking about $50million per annum - set against huge investment and revenue earnings in the billions.

I think it probably only makes sense to talk about wages once we have a Mars money economy on Mars.  Initially there will in effect be cost free rationing and free accommodation.


SpaceNut wrote:

What about the settlement of one place to another on the same destination(Mars or Moon)?

  I think there will certainly be separate settlements early on but most will be quite small I think - e.g. mining or coms centres.  For both Moon and Mars I expect there will be one big major settlement.


SpaceNut wrote:

What about the Destination place Mars or Moon to another Mars or Moon settlement?

  I think there could be a developing Mars-Moon trading system. Lunar settlements might find it easier to get some materials and even finished goods from Mars.  Mars might buy in rocket fuel from the Moon.


Let's Go to Mars...Google on: Fast Track to Mars blogspot.com

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#27 2012-01-18 20:35:57

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 13,056

Re: Mars Economic Activity

Scientists pining for a sample return from Mars have a consolation prize -- rocks recently found in Morocco are freshly arrived bits from our neighbor planet.

The rocks not only are rare because they came from Mars -- of the roughly 24,000 meteorites that have been discovered on Earth, only about 34 hail from the red planet, NASA says -- they also just arrived.

Scientists believe they plummented to Earth in a meteorite shower last July. They were recovered in Morocco in December.

The biggest of the 15 rocks weighs more than 2 pounds. They're worth 10 times the price of gold.

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#28 2012-01-18 20:51:15

louis
Member
From: UK
Registered: 2008-03-24
Posts: 3,939

Re: Mars Economic Activity

SpaceNut wrote:

Scientists pining for a sample return from Mars have a consolation prize -- rocks recently found in Morocco are freshly arrived bits from our neighbor planet.

The rocks not only are rare because they came from Mars -- of the roughly 24,000 meteorites that have been discovered on Earth, only about 34 hail from the red planet, NASA says -- they also just arrived.

Scientists believe they plummented to Earth in a meteorite shower last July. They were recovered in Morocco in December.

The biggest of the 15 rocks weighs more than 2 pounds. They're worth 10 times the price of gold.


Ten times - that's about $500 per gram then. According to some people such figures are "Pie in the sky"!


Let's Go to Mars...Google on: Fast Track to Mars blogspot.com

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#29 2012-01-19 04:06:59

Terraformer
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From: Lancashire
Registered: 2007-08-27
Posts: 2,890
Website

Re: Mars Economic Activity

They are if you're looking to flood the market - they're only that valuable because of their rarity.


"I guarantee you that at some point, everything's going to go south on you, and you're going to say, 'This is it, this is how I end.' Now you can either accept that, or you can get to work." - Mark Watney

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#30 2012-01-19 07:18:50

louis
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From: UK
Registered: 2008-03-24
Posts: 3,939

Re: Mars Economic Activity

Terraformer wrote:

They are if you're looking to flood the market - they're only that valuable because of their rarity.

...and there will be no rare minerals or meteorites on Mars, of a kind never found on Earth?


Let's Go to Mars...Google on: Fast Track to Mars blogspot.com

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#31 2012-01-19 12:30:48

JoshNH4H
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From: Pullman, WA
Registered: 2007-07-15
Posts: 2,378
Website

Re: Mars Economic Activity

...and there will be no rare minerals or meteorites on Mars, of a kind never found on Earth?

Almost certainly not.  The laws of physics and chemistry are the same on Mars as they are on Earth, and the geological processes are basically the same, with the exception that those on Mars are somewhat less varied than those on Earth, and that the processes which tend to produce the widest varieties of minerals and ores, vulcanism and water flow, were less significant in shaping the face of the planet Mars than they were on Earth.  Likewise, similar meteorites strike the planet Mars as strike the planet Earth and there is little reason to believe that there would be anything particularly special about a meteorite found on Mars.

What marginally different geological formations will be found will no doubt be considered quite fascinating to geologists as well as areologists (Term from KSR's Mars Trilogy, e.g., Martian geologist), but very probably will have little market value on Earth.


-Josh

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#32 2012-01-19 12:56:54

JoshNH4H
Moderator
From: Pullman, WA
Registered: 2007-07-15
Posts: 2,378
Website

Re: Mars Economic Activity

Oh, and by the way, in terms of the actual prices of the meteorites:

This article states that the meteorites are going for $11,000/0z-$25,000/oz.  That is equivalent to $388/g-$794/g.  However, please consider the ways in which these samples are special:

  • This is only the fifth time which an identified Martian meteorite has been seen falling to Earth, and the first time in the last 50 years

  • It was lying on the ground for a period of months, which in this context and especially this location (Morocco, probably in the Sahara) will lead to very little contamination

  • The guy who found them has a monopoly on selling martian meteorites of this quality

  • There were only 7 kg

If you're importing 2-4 tonnes of the stuff per year, as you have suggested, will the price go down?  Absolutely.  And a hell of a lot, too.  I'm sticking with $10/g-$25/g for Martian meteorites, and of course less in profit.

Last edited by JoshNH4H (2012-01-19 12:57:25)


-Josh

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#33 2013-03-31 17:40:19

sanman
Member
Registered: 2012-02-23
Posts: 27

Re: Mars Economic Activity

The most valuable things in a Martian economy will be the things most in demand - air, water, food, energy (basically the equipment that produces them, and also stores them)

People will also want living space - mere real estate isn't good enough. You need enclosed habitable living living space on your real estate in order to make use of it.

Electric vehicles, resource harvesting equipment, robots and of course space suits, without which your freedom of activity may be severely limited.

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#34 2013-04-01 08:26:15

louis
Member
From: UK
Registered: 2008-03-24
Posts: 3,939

Re: Mars Economic Activity

JoshNH4H wrote:

Oh, and by the way, in terms of the actual prices of the meteorites:

This article states that the meteorites are going for $11,000/0z-$25,000/oz.  That is equivalent to $388/g-$794/g.  However, please consider the ways in which these samples are special:

  • This is only the fifth time which an identified Martian meteorite has been seen falling to Earth, and the first time in the last 50 years

  • It was lying on the ground for a period of months, which in this context and especially this location (Morocco, probably in the Sahara) will lead to very little contamination

  • The guy who found them has a monopoly on selling martian meteorites of this quality

  • There were only 7 kg

If you're importing 2-4 tonnes of the stuff per year, as you have suggested, will the price go down?  Absolutely.  And a hell of a lot, too.  I'm sticking with $10/g-$25/g for Martian meteorites, and of course less in profit.

As I've explained the number of meteorites coming on to the market has expanded hugely over teh last 50 years but meteorites can still realise very high values. Meteorites from the surface of Mars will have even greater intrinsic value for both scientists, museums  and private collectors.


Let's Go to Mars...Google on: Fast Track to Mars blogspot.com

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#35 2013-04-01 08:27:48

louis
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From: UK
Registered: 2008-03-24
Posts: 3,939

Re: Mars Economic Activity

sanman wrote:

The most valuable things in a Martian economy will be the things most in demand - air, water, food, energy (basically the equipment that produces them, and also stores them)

People will also want living space - mere real estate isn't good enough. You need enclosed habitable living living space on your real estate in order to make use of it.

Electric vehicles, resource harvesting equipment, robots and of course space suits, without which your freedom of activity may be severely limited.

True, but I think initially all these things will be provided free by the Mars Consortium or whoever gets there first, because for the consortium, the most valuable thing is getting people there to realise the value of the place e.g. by collecting meteorites.


Let's Go to Mars...Google on: Fast Track to Mars blogspot.com

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#36 2015-04-19 19:06:04

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 13,056

Re: Mars Economic Activity

This is the newest of the possible topics to add this post to, the other is » Martian Politics and Economy» Creating the Cis-Lunar economy.

This is partly due to the 3 D printing but I am sure that it will branch out with time.

Made In Space Begins Selling “Terrestrial Offerings”

Made In Space hopes that some of their products will be purchased for reasons other than 3D printing. Advertised to museums, space collectors, and 3D printing enthusiasts, the AstroABS Canister serves as a contemporary space souvenir, identical to the space hardware currently aboard the International Space Station, and as a form of support for the Made In Space vision.

The first product offerings will focus on the plastic filament that Made In Space uses for in-space manufacturing. Four main filament products are available for pre-order today with prices that reflect their level of space readiness. These initial products are meant for a range of potential customers, from makers who want quality printer feedstock at affordable prices to zero-gravity designers who want to use Made In Space’s “AstroABS” to reduce the differences between their test prints on Earth and their planned prints in space. With the inclusion of the “AstroABS Canister” product, Made In Space hopes that some of their products will be purchased for reasons other than 3D printing. Advertised to museums, space collectors, and 3D printing enthusiasts, the AstroABS Canister serves as a contemporary space souvenir, identical to the space hardware currently aboard the International Space Station, and as a form of support for the Made In Space vision.

100% of Made In Space’s profits from all of the products will be used to further the company’s vision for creating a multi-planetary civilization. By leveraging the new capabilities that exponential technologies provide, Made In Space plans to continue revolutionizing what it means to be a modern space developer and create the necessary tools that will enable humanity to colonize space.

“This terrestrial store is a logical extension of the Made In Space explorer spirit.

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#37 2015-05-04 19:58:34

knightdepaix
Member
Registered: 2014-07-07
Posts: 130

Re: Mars Economic Activity

For construction materials, iron is available by simply reducing the iron oxides found on surface. How about Graphene? Using solar energy to make graphene and graphene oxides from the CO2 atmospheres and ice cap. Is the Martian low gravity an advantage for their manufacture. Also these allotropes and compounds will be used and manufactured in bulk amount anyway for construction on Mars so a surplus would be sold to earth industries.

A larger perspective is taking advantage of the lower gravity and thinner atmosphere on Mars for new and exotic manufacturing by robots. Then you have carbon steel, graphene, chlorine oxides and percarbonate as bleaches, silicones, silicon-based semiconductor for CPU etc.

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#38 2015-06-05 18:27:00

louis
Member
From: UK
Registered: 2008-03-24
Posts: 3,939

Re: Mars Economic Activity

knightdepaix wrote:

For construction materials, iron is available by simply reducing the iron oxides found on surface. How about Graphene? Using solar energy to make graphene and graphene oxides from the CO2 atmospheres and ice cap. Is the Martian low gravity an advantage for their manufacture. Also these allotropes and compounds will be used and manufactured in bulk amount anyway for construction on Mars so a surplus would be sold to earth industries.

A larger perspective is taking advantage of the lower gravity and thinner atmosphere on Mars for new and exotic manufacturing by robots. Then you have carbon steel, graphene, chlorine oxides and percarbonate as bleaches, silicones, silicon-based semiconductor for CPU etc.

An important perspective on all this is that the Mars colony will be tiny to begin with so Earth can afford to lavish resources on the human population.  Processes that on Earth might be considered ruinously expensive will be perfectly economical in terms of developing a Mars colony.


Let's Go to Mars...Google on: Fast Track to Mars blogspot.com

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#39 2015-06-06 20:07:51

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 13,056

Re: Mars Economic Activity

There is some work on selective laser 3D printing
Lots of Mars analog site stuff in this report
http://files.hawaii.gov/dbedt/annuals/2 … pisces.pdf

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#40 2015-06-07 04:58:16

louis
Member
From: UK
Registered: 2008-03-24
Posts: 3,939

Re: Mars Economic Activity

SpaceNut wrote:

There is some work on selective laser 3D printing
Lots of Mars analog site stuff in this report
http://files.hawaii.gov/dbedt/annuals/2 … pisces.pdf

That's an interesting doc I must read in more detail. I have always been interested in use of basalt to make useful objects on Mars e.g. kitchen vessels and utensils, some farm tools etc.  Using basalt dust in 3D printers could be a good way forward.


Let's Go to Mars...Google on: Fast Track to Mars blogspot.com

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#41 2015-09-16 10:12:51

Tom Kalbfus
Banned
Registered: 2006-08-16
Posts: 4,401

Re: Mars Economic Activity

louis wrote:
knightdepaix wrote:

For construction materials, iron is available by simply reducing the iron oxides found on surface. How about Graphene? Using solar energy to make graphene and graphene oxides from the CO2 atmospheres and ice cap. Is the Martian low gravity an advantage for their manufacture. Also these allotropes and compounds will be used and manufactured in bulk amount anyway for construction on Mars so a surplus would be sold to earth industries.

A larger perspective is taking advantage of the lower gravity and thinner atmosphere on Mars for new and exotic manufacturing by robots. Then you have carbon steel, graphene, chlorine oxides and percarbonate as bleaches, silicones, silicon-based semiconductor for CPU etc.

An important perspective on all this is that the Mars colony will be tiny to begin with so Earth can afford to lavish resources on the human population.  Processes that on Earth might be considered ruinously expensive will be perfectly economical in terms of developing a Mars colony.

For example a Solar Power Satellite might be too expensive for Earth, but Martian colonists have to travel through space to get to Mars, and placing an SPS satellite adequate to all the power needs of the Mars colony, might be cheaper than hauling all those solar panels from Earth, landing them on Mars, and placing them on the surface of the planet and then having to worry about power storage at night!

If you have a small Solar Power satellite beaming a laser or a microwave beam at a receiving station on Mars, since Mars is tilted on an axis, that power will be continuously available throughout most of the Martian year.

Another case in point, no one would dream of having a portable nuclear reactor to power and heat his home on Earth, but on Mars it makes perfect sense. You could also have atomic powered cars, the problems of hazardous waste may be put off until Mars is more heavily populated and their are people who are concerned about it.

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#42 2018-03-30 20:45:23

vemsemigma
Banned
From: USA
Registered: 2018-03-28
Posts: 10

Re: Mars Economic Activity

Court tell me they have only recently sent the defence statement to other side and Mars say they are still going ahead
suppose I will have to wait and see what they say in their reply to the court

barney

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