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Void

Member

Registered: 2011-12-29

Posts: 7,824

Re: Venus

Greater minds than mine have looked into "Dynamic Soaring" at the Heliopause.

I think that such thinking may have merit for both Venus and Mars.

https://arxiv.org/abs/2211.14643
Quote:

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Physics > Space Physics
[Submitted on 26 Nov 2022 (v1), last revised 29 Nov 2022 (this version, v2)]
Dynamic Soaring as a Means to Exceed the Solar Wind Speed
Mathias N. Larrouturou, Andrew J. Higgins, Jeffrey K. Greason

So, inertia of the device that would soar, is not the same sort of concern as for trying to accelerate a load to outer reaches beyond the edge of the solar wind.

Since orbit of an object is basically an energy storage opportunity, the device may not have to be as dry mass consirvative.

But much more to learn.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-08-17 10:45:09)

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Void

Member

Registered: 2011-12-29

Posts: 7,824

Re: Venus

I have been traveling, fishing, and dealing with a computer malfunction, so I want to see if I can do a post.

I have been observing the site a bit by other means though, and was stimulated by this topic from kdb512: https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=10892

My parallel solution would not fit into that topic without disrupting it, so I will do it here.

Caliban has also provided stimulation as well, in a notion to send ice chunks to a sun orbit from Ceres that would eventually intercept Mars.

Here though I am thinking about Carbon to bombard Mars.  The Carbon to be from Venus.  The process could also have a separate method to deliver Nitrogen from Venus, at greater trouble.

Carbon from Venus, joined to molecules of solids from asteroids could support a one planet form of cycling spaceship, to deliver the Carbon.

The cyclers (Many) would be tied to Mars but should be convenient to receive materials from Venus.  Just for giggles lets say you would have one for each day of a Mars year.  They would not seek to intercept another planet, only Mars.

Materials delivered from Venus by some methos could intercept one of these as might be convenient, and eventually all of them in turn.

So, this leaves two questions.  How do you get the materials from Venus to the cyclers?  How can you do things we might consider beneficial to Mars with Carbon?

I will address a possible method to get the materials from Venus.  I am thinking that in the orbit of Venus, if you can capture CO2, you can build things with Carbon.  As for the Oxygen it is a common substance, and can be more used as a propellant.  An Oxygen Mass Driver is one possibility.

A substance that it might be possible to construct with in microgravity could be Carbon Aerogel.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aerogel
Quote:

Carbon aerogels are also extremely "black" in the infrared spectrum, reflecting only 0.3% of radiation between 250 nm and 14.3 μm, making them efficient for solar energy collectors. The term "aerogel" to describe airy masses of carbon nanotubes produced through certain chemical vapor deposition techniques … See more

But I think that the creation process for that is tedious.  I am wondering if 3D printing could produce a similar structure.
It does not have to be as good at insulation as Aerogel but does need to be porous.  Rocket Lab indicates that they have a fast creation process to build Neutron Rocket.  So, other structures might be made of Carbon as well.

But also, in the orbit of Venus, it might be possible to aerobrake materials from asteroids to an orbit of Venus.

So giant bubbles of materials with a outer structure resembling Aerogel could be put into orbit of Venus, at a location where they may intercept thin atmosphere.

The Pseudo-Aerogel, being porous such molecules will intercept and penetrate the Aerogel, and tend to adopt the orbital characteristics of the devices.  Of course, makeup propulsion methods will have to keep the "Bubbles" in orbit.

To assist visualization, imagine a cylinder constructed, with each flat end pointed to the solar polarities, of North and South.  These flat faces could be quite cold, perhaps cold enough to condense CO2 as a frost.

But the cylindrical walls will be the Pseudo-Aerogel collectors.

So, then if you could condense CO2, that can be processed into Oxygen and Carbon.  Oxygen can be shot out of a Mass Driver for propulsion.  It is likely that some other gasses will be collected such as Nitrogen.  I will not yet suggest how to collect those, but methods are likely possible.

I also suspect that materials like Atomic Oxygen will erode the Carbon structures, so, a method to repair them continuously will be wanted, perhaps 3D printing robotic devices.

So presuming Carbon can be refined from the atmosphere of Venus in this way, then a product to deliver to Mars would exist.

Methods to deliver the Carbon to the cyclers would be possible, I suggest making a solar sail out of Carbon, as some notion.  Not very efficient I expect, but even so, with time and patience the Carbon could arrive at the Cycler.  But it now occurs to me that the Carbon could in fact go to Mars on its own.   That would be simpler of course.  So, I may have destroyed the need for the Cyclers.

Anyway, upon arrival at Mars, we expect a collision with the Atmosphere.  And a burning process.  This may cause the creation of Carbon Monoxide, but possible some of the Carbon would crash onto a surface.

By adding Carbon to the Atmosphere of Mars you increase the air pressure, but of course you make it more toxic.  It was already toxic from CO and for that matter CO2.

But we have added to two substances that biology can live on CO, and Carbon.  As these can be added to a body of water that is anoxic, then biology can use the CO and Carbon as a fuel, and extract Oxygen from the Water and from stony materials such as Dune Materials.  They would then produce CO2 to add to the Atmosphere.

As for the Atmospheric collectors around Venus, I think that if Carbon sheets could be delivered to Earth orbits and our Moon, then interesting things could happen such as collecting air from the Earth's upper atmosphere, and of course Carbon on the Moon would be very valuable.

Ending Pending

Seems like I can post with this computer now.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2024-09-27 07:56:10)

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