Building a Saturn V in your backyard...

Swoosh · 2008-02-28 07:57:58

What is the law in the US regarding private use of NASA designs? If, for example, a private firm wanted to have a shot at Mars using Apollo technology, would they be allowed to reengineer the dies and start making Saturn Vs? What about components like the external tanks and SRBs? In short, how cool is NASA with private companies building stuff that they originally designed?

From another thread: Apparently the Russians are leaving this possibility open with their Energia program.

In February 2001 I received a response from the Director of the International Division of RSC Energia. He confirmed that Energia is available to anyone willing to pay for restoration of infrastructure and the per-launch cost

JoshNH4H · 2008-02-28 15:07:44

Interesting idea... but nasa goes the 'i have unlimited money' way, for companies, it's not that simple.

Austin Stanley · 2008-02-29 23:36:44

What is the law in the US regarding private use of NASA designs? If, for example, a private firm wanted to have a shot at Mars using Apollo technology, would they be allowed to reengineer the dies and start making Saturn Vs? What about components like the external tanks and SRBs? In short, how cool is NASA with private companies building stuff that they originally designed?

The biggest and most immediate problem with this is that the detailed plans for the Saturn V have been lost/destroyed. So the exact design itself is pretty much unrecoverable. The are of course still some copies of it in existance in various parks, but reverse engineering a new Saturn V from these would probably be comparable to designing a new rocket.

The second problem is that a large number of the components that make up the Saturn V, like say the F-1 or J-2 engines are owned by Rocketdyne or some other private corp and so not part of the public domain. While you could buy J-2s from off the shelf, the F-1 engine has been out of commission for a while now.

The last problem of course is the earth-shattering cost. Even if you could save on development by reviving the Saturn-V (which seems unlikely) you would still have to actually build the rocket, and worse yet all the infastructure to service it. To build and launch the Saturn-V you need a huge building like the VAB (third largest building by volume in the world) to build it. Launch stands to launch it. A crawler to transport it (and some means of transporting the still large incomplete stages). A mission control center. And a fuel plant. Its quite possible you will need some test stands for the engines as well. All of this is crazy expensive, out side of the rocket cost (which is quite enough thank you).

cIclops · 2008-03-01 01:55:20

Rocket science today has gone far beyond that used in building the Saturn V in the 1960s. Improvements in materials, engines, actuators, control systems and all the other components and technologies required have been enormous. On the surface Ares V looks similar to the Saturn V but its performance, reliability, marginal and operational costs will be significantly better. It would make no more sense than to start building Boeing 707s today. That may explain why no private company has proposed doing it.

Terraformer · 2008-03-01 05:12:25

Then what about the law with bulding Ares rockets?

SpaceNut · 2008-03-01 08:14:59

FAA.EPA and so many more agencies that would need to be part of the loop..See the threads on private space cots and such for more.

Austin Stanley · 2008-03-01 13:50:07

While I don't know of any specific law against building a large rocket in your backyard, their are MANY regulations involved. There are regulation about storing and handling large quantities of jet/rocket fuel, liquid hydrogen, and liquid oxygen. In fact handling the fuel inside the SRB is probably downright illegal without the proper licenses. Your county/city may want to speak to you about building codes/permits and the like as well.

When it comes to launching the rocket the FAA is definitely involved. Launching any decent sized rocket requires their approval of both the launch and the design. Launching the rocket is both incredibly loud and dangerous so the local authorities would have to sign off as well.

For better or worse building a large rocket in your backyard is not practical.

cIclops · 2008-03-01 13:59:08

Perhaps that bad and pointless movie "The Astronaut Farmer" is partly to blame

GCNRevenger · 2008-03-01 14:24:36

While I don't know of any specific law against building a large rocket in your backyard, their are MANY regulations involved. There are regulation about storing and handling large quantities of jet/rocket fuel, liquid hydrogen, and liquid oxygen. In fact handling the fuel inside the SRB is probably downright illegal without the proper licenses. Your county/city may want to speak to you about building codes/permits and the like as well.
When it comes to launching the rocket the FAA is definitely involved. Launching any decent sized rocket requires their approval of both the launch and the design. Launching the rocket is both incredibly loud and dangerous so the local authorities would have to sign off as well.
For better or worse building a large rocket in your backyard is not practical.

-Liquid fueled rockets are basically big incendiary bombs, which you would be launching out of a populated area

-"Space grade" solid rockets often use toxic ammonium perchlorate or ammonium nitrate which can easily make nasty explosives (terrorism concern)

-Most maneuvering thrusters use toxic and easy-to-blow-up anhydrous hypergolic fuels or dangerous to handle concentrated hydrogen peroxide, which can also be used to make bombs (triacetone triperoxide)

-Even unfueled, a crashing supersonic rocket would make an awfully big bang when it impacts

-If you mess up orbital insertion, you are likely to add a nontrivial amount of space debris into Earth orbit, making a hazard for other space vehicles.

So yeah, there are good reasons not to let anybody build big rockets in their back yard.

cIclops · 2008-03-01 14:28:44

Being able to put 110 MT into LEO would give the group who launched it a massive ICBM capability.

JoshNH4H · 2008-03-01 20:26:22

Thinking of this, what about other countries? are there any (preferably equatorial countries that will allow it?

on another not, you don't need ICBM capabilities if you're already in the USA.

Swoosh · 2008-03-01 23:17:57

Perhaps my "backyard" statement was not quite on the money... clearly the government's not about to hand out rocket plans to just anyone, but say SpaceX wanted to gain HLV capability, would they be allowed to try their hand at building a NASA design (their upcoming Falcon designs look remarkably similar to the larger classes of Delta)

cIclops · 2008-03-02 02:37:05

If NASA own the design, they can allow anyone to use it as long as no other law applies (such as ITAR). This is one reason they want ownership of as much of the Constellation system as possible, so they can compete its production and reduce costs.

In fact NASA own all of the Constellation design with the possible exception of the Ares I first stage, or do they also own this as it's based on the Shuttle RSRB? Boeing (ULA) own the Delta II, they would want a license fee from SpaceX if they copied it.

RVingRetiree · 2008-03-14 23:53:37

The biggest and most immediate problem with this is that the detailed plans for the Saturn V have been lost/destroyed. So the exact design itself is pretty much unrecoverable. The are of course still some copies of it in existance in various parks, but reverse engineering a new Saturn V from these would probably be comparable to designing a new rocket.

I believe NASA has denied that the plans are lost. See

http://www.space.com/news/spacehistory/ … 00313.html

Incidentally, I'm a skeptic about not rebuilding the Saturn V. I remember all too well the glowing claims about how wonderful the Shuttle was going to be. I'd be happy to see a commitment to rebuild the Saturn V, which I suspect would come online sooner, and be cheaper and more reliable than the Ares I and V will turn out to be. But that's the opinion of an aged cynic when it comes to engineering projects and claims about new rockets, not a rocket scientist.

louis · 2008-03-26 21:21:34

Associated with this issue -

Shouldn't assembly in space of sub-units be much easier now with laser technology and so on. Isn't there an argument for looking towards assembly in LEO as the way forward? So, if you want a 40 tonne Mars lander, you build it from 8 "snap together" 5 tonne sub units (which can be lifted into space by medium sized rockets)?

pete · 2008-04-06 14:55:26

Just adding to the previous statements: There is a law in the US that any private US company can use whatever constructional data NASA has developed. This is why Bigelow can use the Transhab technology free of charge. The same would apply for the Saturn V, all the other caveats not withstanding, of course.

The main problem with the Saturn V is not so much, whether the original blueprints still exist. Even if they did exist, somebody would have to read them and the old engineering teams don't exist anymore. So it would probably be just as expensive to rebuild the Saturn than it would be start a new development.

By the way, there is one more problem. The 1960s spare parts and components are no longer available. Even if you wanted, you couldn't build a carbon copy of the Saturn V. Although Soyuz has been in production for about 40 years, the Russians are having more and more trouble getting the parts for it. That's one of the reasons why they will have to develop something new like Kliper or ACTS.

Terraformer · 2008-04-07 03:49:09

The Russians aren't building the new parts for Soyuz?

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#1 2008-02-28 07:57:58

Re: Building a Saturn V in your backyard...

#2 2008-02-28 15:07:44

Re: Building a Saturn V in your backyard...

#3 2008-02-29 23:36:44

Re: Building a Saturn V in your backyard...

#4 2008-03-01 01:55:20

Re: Building a Saturn V in your backyard...

#5 2008-03-01 05:12:25

Re: Building a Saturn V in your backyard...

#6 2008-03-01 08:14:59

Re: Building a Saturn V in your backyard...

#7 2008-03-01 13:50:07

Re: Building a Saturn V in your backyard...

#8 2008-03-01 13:59:08

Re: Building a Saturn V in your backyard...

#9 2008-03-01 14:24:36

Re: Building a Saturn V in your backyard...

#10 2008-03-01 14:28:44

Re: Building a Saturn V in your backyard...

#11 2008-03-01 20:26:22

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#12 2008-03-01 23:17:57

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#13 2008-03-02 02:37:05

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#14 2008-03-14 23:53:37

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#15 2008-03-26 21:21:34

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#16 2008-04-06 14:55:26

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#17 2008-04-07 03:49:09

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