New Mars Forums

Official discussion forum of The Mars Society and MarsNews.com

You are not logged in.

Announcement

Announcement: As a reader of NewMars forum, we have opportunities for you to assist with technical discussions in several initiatives underway. NewMars needs volunteers with appropriate education, skills, talent, motivation and generosity of spirit as a highly valued member. Write to newmarsmember * gmail.com to tell us about your ability's to help contribute to NewMars and become a registered member.

#1 2007-01-28 22:36:45

Dayton Kitchens
Member
From: Norphlet, Arkansas
Registered: 2005-12-13
Posts: 183

Re: July 20th, 2009 Should Be Our Goal

I think all Manned Mission to Mars advocacy organizations should make getting a presidential commitment to a manned Mars Mission on July 20th, 2009 an absolute priority.

That of course will be the 40th anniversary of Apollo 11.  The next president will be in their first year, still in the honeymoon period and prone to being willing to make a grand gesture or start a major program.

I think the emphasis should be on getting the new president to commit to putting a manned mission on Mars by 2019.   That is, getting it done for the 50th anniversary of Apollo 11.

Such key events.  40th anniversary, 50th anniversary seems more likely to capture peoples imaginations and draw political and public support than more far fetched and nebulous time timelines.

Offline

#2 2007-02-01 22:53:49

Dayton Kitchens
Member
From: Norphlet, Arkansas
Registered: 2005-12-13
Posts: 183

Re: July 20th, 2009 Should Be Our Goal

I would've thought this thread would get some responses by now.

Why do we spend so much time arguing about tether length, the use of inflatables as surface habitats, and whether a drill should be part of the field equipment on the first manned mission?

inflatables.....tethers.....drills.........

answering [b]none or all[/b] of those questions isn't going to do anything to get a Manned Mars program up and running.

We should be looking at political opportunities,  media covered anniversary dates, sound bites, spin...all those things that could get us a serious commitment to a manned Mars program.[/b]

Offline

#3 2007-02-02 09:34:46

Marsman
Member
Registered: 2005-08-30
Posts: 146
Website

Re: July 20th, 2009 Should Be Our Goal

Makes you wonder if anyone really wants a Mars mission or not. I guess many people are resigned to the fact that NASA are the only ones to be able to get to Mars and that there is no point pressuring them, after all, they will get it done without any of us... In short, this issue is the big elephant in the room no one wants to go near. This issue may seem too big for many of us, but I think that is being small minded.

We should be looking at political opportunities, media covered anniversary dates, sound bites, spin...all those things that could get us a serious commitment to a manned Mars program

.

I agree. People power can and does change things as history shows us. The cynics might disagree but the evidence is clear enough. Get enough people to support a humans to Mars mission and then our governments will take notice and do something. If we do nothing then be content with Mars in 30 years or more, and it will only be for the very elite in some boring science mission like Apollo if we are lucky. Some of the posters here probably won't even be around to witness a humans to Mars mission. All that talk, all those thousands of posts, all that enthusiasm and they miss out on the main show. What a waste. If we really are Mars enthusiasts we should be doing everything we can to bring forward a humans to Mars future. More than just talking in a forum. I was reading in the NASA Spaceflight forums a Q & A session with an actual NASA engineer and noted what he said about forums like this- NASA PAO and staff are too busy working on actual systems and hardware etc to take notice of the BIG media let alone small forums. So action would be a far better use of our time. Here is the quote-

Sure NASA could have done better at managing public perception of the ARES 1 and Constellation Programs...and probably the Programs themselves...but a bit of perspective is in order...I personally love this site(NASA Spaceflight Forums) and think Chris does a great job and that most of the posters are good, knowledgeable folks with pure motives...but there typically are only 10s of people participating in these discussions, and at best less than 200. The NASA folks are so busy getting their jobs done and satisfying the stakeholders that can take their budget away that they don't spend a heck of a lot of time running down internet rumors and making sure to correct misconceptions on internet chat forums or aerospace blog sites. If something comes to them from Congress or gets in a major media site, PAO and the Program will reluctantly take some time to address it

We need to think about things, true, and do research, but wouldn't that be better done through actual activity towards putting humans on Mars? Things like you suggest- lobbying the government, making noise in the wider media, doing real public outreach etc. If we were strong in such things then all our talking would mean something but as it is we know how to talk the talk, but not how to walk the walk. Talk of small groups like MS or MarsDrive being able to have a real impact in the area of mission committments seems insane, but only to those who have settled for second best. I believe we can do better.


welcome to [url=http://www.marsdrive.net]www.marsdrive.net[/url]

Offline

#4 2007-02-02 09:43:24

Dayton Kitchens
Member
From: Norphlet, Arkansas
Registered: 2005-12-13
Posts: 183

Re: July 20th, 2009 Should Be Our Goal

I think if every Congressman and Senator got 10 detailed letters calling for a manned Mars program it would make an impact.

That's only 5350 letters.   Which should be achievable I would think.

But we can do better.   Target their campaign managers and Chief of Staffs for mailings as well.   The people who write their speeches and actually write the bills they introduce.

Offline

#5 2007-02-02 09:52:31

RobertDyck
Moderator
From: Winnipeg, Canada
Registered: 2002-08-20
Posts: 7,781
Website

Re: July 20th, 2009 Should Be Our Goal

Welcome to the wonderful world of the space nerd. Many members like me wanted to be an Aerospace Engineer, to design the first manned spacecraft to Mars. I watched the first two Mercury missions as a baby, literally bottle fed in front of the TV by my mother as those missions happened. As a child I wanted to grow up to be a "rocket scientist" as I called it then, the correct term is aerospace engineer. This message board is open to everyone, but was originally formed as the forum for Mars Society members. The Mars Society has roughly 4,000 members, most of whom are actively involved. We have NASA scientists and engineers, space industry contractors and their engineers, as well as average citizens like computer programmers and automechanics working together as equals. As a contrast, the Planetary Society has over 100,000 members, but they never do anything other than pay their dues and read the flashy/glossy newsletter that's mailed out to them periodically. Maybe they would be more interested in yet another promise from a politician. Oh wait, those guys just sit there, watch and read, they don't actually participate; they probably couldn't even be bothered to respond to your suggestion.

Mars Society members have heard a lot of promises from a lot of politicians. President George H. W Bush (George Bush Sr.) stood on the steps of the Air and Space museum on the 20th anniversary of the Apollo 11 Moon landing to announce his Space Exploration Initiative. That included a manned mission to Mars. NASA trundled off and spent 90 days coming up with a plan to get it done. Their report has come to be called the "90-Day Report". You know, the one that cost $450 billion. When congress saw the price tag their response was "You want WHAT!!!" And that was the end of that. Then on January 14, 2004, President George W. Bush (George Bush Jr.) announced his Vision for Space Exploration. NASA is still officially working on that, but it has degenerated into a redux of Apollo to the Moon; Apollo on steroids. Any effort to get humans to Mars has been pushed so far in the future it isn't visible any more. Most space fans are tired of promises from politicians. If one follows through and delivers, that will get people's attention. But few are willing to listen to further campaign promises.

Offline

#6 2007-02-02 11:08:00

Marsman
Member
Registered: 2005-08-30
Posts: 146
Website

Re: July 20th, 2009 Should Be Our Goal

You make some interesting points Robert. I'm aware of the great work being done by Mars Society members, and I know of the many people within and outside of NASA who want a Mars mission. Waiting for a politician to announce a Mars mission is not worth the effort, I agree. I should have finished my thoughts from my first post, sorry. My focus is on making an alternative Mars mission a reality. I have totally given up on waiting for a government to do it. That is what I mean when I say we can do better. I think that the Mars groups of the world, private enterprise and other nations should take charge of this issue if the U.S government won't. The Mars Society have stated in their charter that their aim is to be-

3. Conducting Mars exploration on a private basis.
Starting small, with hitchhiker payloads on government funded missions, we intend to use the credibility that such activity will engender to mobilize larger resources that will enable stand-alone private robotic missions and ultimately human exploration.

Does the Mars Society really take that last point seriously or are they just conducting more conferences and writing more papers on it? Action is what is needed. Part of the reason MarsDrive was formed was out of frustration that this third point was not in actuality being pursued in truth. Private missions to Mars, or government/private partnerships are the way to go, even NASA have hinted at this. It is time the private sector, and that includes new space companies and Mars advocate groups stepped up to this challenge instead of just writing more nice papers on the subject. It is a massive and complex issue(private Mars missions), and it surprises me that even though it's in the MS charter and lipservice is paid to it as an idea, in reality it remains the butt of jokes. Until this changes waiting on NASA is all we will have. One of our people from marsdrive got this response from a senator recently when asked about their position on Mars missions-

Although I believe space exploration is an important element of our national science policy, I remain unconvinced that the President's initiative (VSE) is scientifically valuable or fiscally prudent."

Politics is a double edged sword. It can cut both ways. When they support space visions we see amazing things happen (like Apollo). When they don't support space we see the LEO quagmire of the last 30 years. Letter writing campaigns and talks with congress and the senate must go on from Mars advocates, but so must a strong new focus on alternative Mars missions. Pragmatism must win out here if we are to reach Mars.


welcome to [url=http://www.marsdrive.net]www.marsdrive.net[/url]

Offline

#7 2007-02-02 13:30:08

RobertDyck
Moderator
From: Winnipeg, Canada
Registered: 2002-08-20
Posts: 7,781
Website

Re: July 20th, 2009 Should Be Our Goal

The Mars Society is serious about that, however financial reality is something else. When the Mars Society was first founded, the internet bubble had produced a number of new millionaires willing to donate funds. Roughly half of the Mars Society funds came from millionaire donars, the rest from membership dues and fundraisers like the auction. Since the bubble burst, we don't have millionaire donars any more; that cut our revenue roughtly in half. FMARS costs money to maintain and operate, one thing the executives did is stop giving a free airplane ticket to crew members. FMARS crew now must pay their own way to Resolute. The European chapter is own their own regarding their simulated habitat, consequently it's still in storage. Same with Australia, their's isn't even built yet. Occationally MDRS is rented out; that makes some money. The Mars Gravity biosatellite was a project to launch something in space, a spectacular step toward Mars, but the team fell apart and the majority investor pulled out. Now it's slowly puttering along as a university student project for MIT. This is another case demonstrating the need to stick together. As the old saying goes: "Together we stand, divided we fall." That project became divided, it still hasn't been launched and may not have sufficient researches to ever reach completion.

So rather than forming yet another Mars group, how can Mars Drive work with the existing Mars Society to complete at least one useful project?

Offline

#8 2007-02-02 16:43:20

Marsman
Member
Registered: 2005-08-30
Posts: 146
Website

Re: July 20th, 2009 Should Be Our Goal

One of the biggest points of focus for Marsdrive has been public outreach. We are fully aware of how small the Mars community is and how limited the funding sources have been for all projects and have resolved to do all we can to expand the size of our support base which has many added benefits as you know. As the number of Mars supporters increases this also increases the chances of higher funding levels and even eventually political support (as they see we are more than just 4000 people). Our approach has been different in this area too. We are a group run by non traditional space advocate types, just average citizens like me with a passion to see humans on Mars. We believe that to reach the real public you should use members of that public, not engineers and scientists whos
's speciality is in their own fields, not PR. I accept that the Mars Society are doing some great reserach, and we will not mirror that or pull away people or resources from those projects. We have a different focus. For example, we have a myspace website for the general public to have a portal into our main site and that has become our biggest point of contact with the public. Through that we have met musicians and plenty of very non traditional space advocate types. We are also building outreach in second life if you know what that is and have produced brochures and are doing a couple of new projects this year which will get our message out to 600 people all at once(I can't say what it is yet).

We believe that we do have some unique advantages, and if MS worked closer with us instead of seeing us as a rival they would see we are not about pulling people away from them but quite the opposite. There can also be strength in diversity. If for example a potential new recruit does not like the Mars Society for whatever reason, they should have some other group they can join, this is a good thing, or would you prefer we lose such people? We work together wherever we can but can do so much more being independent. I would like to see more partnerships, I just hope MS look at us a bit deeper and see us for who we always have been- a support for the entire Mars cause.


welcome to [url=http://www.marsdrive.net]www.marsdrive.net[/url]

Offline

#9 2007-02-02 19:41:44

RobertDyck
Moderator
From: Winnipeg, Canada
Registered: 2002-08-20
Posts: 7,781
Website

Re: July 20th, 2009 Should Be Our Goal

Good for you. More outreach is great. I should say that I'm only a computer programmer. Although I did bid on a couple NASA contracts, I didn't get either. At some point you just have to pursue your dream. Within the Mars Society, I founded the local chapter, and am still president of this chapter, but I'm not a member of the society executive. I am also a member of the Mars Homestead project, and was part of their phase 1 programming team. But I'm not a big-shot, I don't make decisions for the Mars Society as a whole.

Cool! Second life. I read about that but haven't created an account. The article looks artsy, I'm not a graphic artist.

Offline

#10 2007-02-03 02:45:52

Michael Bloxham
Member
From: Auckland, New Zealand
Registered: 2002-03-31
Posts: 426

Re: July 20th, 2009 Should Be Our Goal

Hey Marsman, love what you're saying there.

IMHO, diversification should be embraced.

How many of us here have studied marketing? I think we can definately learn a thing or two. The whole science of marketing seems fascinating to me...

I hope to trial a few new ideas to market my site (http://cleanslate.editboard.com) once I get it up to standard.

I created this site as a response to the amount of apathy that I have witnessed throughout my life. It seemed to me that people are too content with current systems that they have no interest in improving upon them. Perhaps this is because their lives are so comfortable, or perhaps they are too agnostic to get involved. Either way, I think this sort of apathy can be potentially quite dangerous.

I think Edmund Burke hit a nail when he said: "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing."

I very much enjoyed reading Zubrins arguments for the necessesity of the frontier, and the potential for a clean-slate martian society. However, I think he too easily convinced himself that such a frontier, and such a society, could only develop off-planet, so to speak.

With this site, I am giving anyone the opportunity to be a part of something that I honestly believe has the potential to be very, very big. Whether such a clean-slate society is ever given the chance to form is, I think, a matter for the future. What I think is important, is that we start thinking about where we can make improvements, today. Perhaps todays societies will implement such changes tomorrow, and we will never need such a radical 'proof of concept', like the United States and its revolutionary ideals was to the rest of the world in its time. Or perhaps todays governments and businessmen and the like, will learn from their past ignorance, and actually promote and invest in the formation of such a clean-slate society.

Personally, I remain too agnostic and naive to know whether Zubrins arguments about Mars being the only suitable media are just.

Although history repeats, I believe every situation is unique. We may prefer to simplify things, to see them in black & white, in order to make them more palatable to our logical brains perhaps. But more often than not, this ignores the true color of the situation. To be honest, the world is so complex today, that you have to be agnostic.

So lets be naive together, and at least give it a try. You never know what might happen.


- Mike,  Member of the [b][url=http://cleanslate.editboard.com]Clean Slate Society[/url][/b]

Offline

#11 2007-02-04 10:21:58

Marsman
Member
Registered: 2005-08-30
Posts: 146
Website

Re: July 20th, 2009 Should Be Our Goal

Just a question Robert (or anyone else with this information)- I understand when the dot com thing went bust MS lost funding for things, but with 6.5 Billion people in the world I'm sure there must be other viable funding sources? Has anyone from MS seriously tried for that? I mean really tried, not just a sporadic, small time limp wristed approach? For example, most of the entrepeneurs(in the commercial world) who succeed were people who never gave up trying to get investors for their ideas. So compared to that, how passionately would you say MS has gone after new sources of funding? The other question I have is what does a corporate sponsor GET out of funding MS projects? (which would be their questions).


welcome to [url=http://www.marsdrive.net]www.marsdrive.net[/url]

Offline

#12 2007-02-04 11:41:58

RobertDyck
Moderator
From: Winnipeg, Canada
Registered: 2002-08-20
Posts: 7,781
Website

Re: July 20th, 2009 Should Be Our Goal

They are trying to get other sponsors, but I don't know any details. If you're willing to help raise funds, the Mars Society would really appreciate it. MS does have a lot of scientists and engineers, so has the skills for technical projects. Sponsors get their company name and logo on any media coverage for that project. For example, after when the Mars Arctic Research Station (MARS) was being built, one major sponsor provided a substantial amount of money so got their name added to the project name. Basically Flashline paid for naming rights, so it's now called the Flashline Mars Arctic Research Station (FMARS). It's covered by internet news, newspapers, magazines, and TV science and news programs, so Flashline gets their corporate name splashed all over. It's often featured on the Discovery channel. Actually, the Discovery channel is a sponsor as well, and they get exclusive TV rights. No other science channel or science program for any other channel gets to send TV crews up to FMARS. News channels buy their video coverage from Discovery channel. A couple manufacturers of equipment made donations, equipment the MS uses at FMARS, so people get to see that corporate logo on the side of the hab and the website. Whenever the Discovery channel covers FMARS the logos (including Discovery channel's own logo) gets TV coverage. Met One Instruments gets a plug, and their customers tend to be scientists who follow missions at FMARS so it's targeted advertising. GMPCS makes personal communications equipment like satellite phones, designed specifically for remote locations that don't have cell coverage. Again, showing off in the arctic at FMARS is targeted advertising. StarChaser wants to get in the business of space tourism, suborbital rocket ride to 100km; where better than a space advocacy society to find customers, and the Mars Society tends to be those who are active, not just sitting at home reading. Spacefleet Association is trying to find investors so they can get into space tourism, but they want to start big: a 10 person (8 passenger + 2 pilot) fully reusable single stage suborbital space plane. It's all targeted advertising.

I remember a few people suggested NASA get sponsors, but the NASA rep. said they're not permitted to do so. The only corporate logos on NASA equipment are the manufacturer for equipment used on that mission. So no Coke ads on the Shuttle. However, it would permit a Nike swish on space boots or Mars boots if Nike was involved in manufacture of those boots. The NASA person just laughed at that. Someone else suggested the Nike swish to get paid sponsorship, I suggested getting Nike involved in the boots manufacture, but the NASA person just laughed that off, obviously thinking Nike doesn't have the skills necessary for space hardware. But I found ILC Dover (manufacturer of the soft parts of Apollo and Shuttle spacesuits) has bought commercial work boots and put a pressure tight liner in them. Their solution for the next generation Moon boots starts with commercial-off-the-shelf work boots, so why not get the manufacturer of those boots to pay for sponsorship? Instead of paying the manufacturer at 10 to 100 times the price for a commercial version of the same product, get the manufacturer to pay for advertising rights? NASA won't do that, but a private enterprise could.

Offline

#13 2007-02-04 16:32:17

Dayton Kitchens
Member
From: Norphlet, Arkansas
Registered: 2005-12-13
Posts: 183

Re: July 20th, 2009 Should Be Our Goal

I still think we should do more when it comes to political outreach.

All the efforts made here by members (and I applaud them)  will never equal what one committed and connected politician can do in the right circumstances.

All it takes is one or two Congressman or Senators who can be convinced to make the cause of a manned Mars program their own.  Who can be coaxed or convinced into believing that they can leave a historic legacy this way.   

And who are willing to make a serious gamble politically to do so.

We've got more than half of thousand House and Senate members. 

Surely we could find a couple willing and able to bring the issue to the forefront and push for it publicly.

Offline

#14 2007-02-04 18:37:34

Marsman
Member
Registered: 2005-08-30
Posts: 146
Website

Re: July 20th, 2009 Should Be Our Goal

Thanks for the info Robert. From everything I have researched in this area it still seems to come down to a numbers game. Political or private outreach must mean at its foundation there has to be a large number of us, otherwise our efforts will continue to fall on deaf ears. While there remains a tiny almost unnoticed group on the edge of the space community (which is not so big either) we will never stand much of a chance of getting the attention of political or private leaders. Why would any government or private sponsor get involved in a group that only has 4000 members and maybe a only few thousand more internationally? Why would they spend millions or billions on Mars r&d or missions for such a tiny group?

The foundation of all our efforts should be centered around aggressive and creative public outreach, building our numbers to a noticeable level so that when our efforts to speak to political or private leaders happen, they will be accompanied by a large support base. We can keep spending the rare amounts of money we do have on r&d, which is fine by me, or we can start to finally put some serious effort into real public outreach. I think that for the foreseeable future at least, public outreach should be the focus of as many Mars enthusiasts as possible. I know to a pro Mars engineer or scientist this is not what they want to hear, but we shouldn't get the cart before the horse.

How much better would it be if we had say 100,000 or even a million or more supporters for humans on Mars who we prepared to join us in some way? The public will not join a scientific/engineering dominated fraternity group, but they will purchase products of interest and they will look into items of interest if we presented it to them in the right way. Things like games, movies, TV shows, community events, celebrity endorsements and widespread promotion of our cause is what we need and what the public do respond to. Most major corporations understand this and tailor their advertising campaign around what the public want if they want to be a success. It's a good model to follow. We must speak to them in their language if we are to reach them too.

For example, what are the probabilities of  attracting 100,000 people to a professional online game (like EVE ONline, WoW, etc) versus having them sit through a one hour lecture or propulsion systems in a MS conference or chapter meeting (just an example). The point here is to get their support using whatever means works best. Continuing on with the game example, if there was 100,000 players in a Mars based online game, and this game had advertising and information connecting it to our own message and cause, a certain percentage of the players would join us. Lets say it was only 10%, then there you have a new group of 10,000 supporters where there was once none. So this for us at Marsdrive is the way we are going and the early signs are that it does work. Let's build our numbers, then political and private support will come.


welcome to [url=http://www.marsdrive.net]www.marsdrive.net[/url]

Offline

#15 2007-02-04 20:22:03

Dayton Kitchens
Member
From: Norphlet, Arkansas
Registered: 2005-12-13
Posts: 183

Re: July 20th, 2009 Should Be Our Goal

or private leaders. Why would any government or private sponsor get involved in a group that only has 4000 members and maybe a only few thousand more internationally? Why would they spend millions or billions on Mars r&d or missions for such a tiny group?

Let's build our numbers, then political and private support will come.

In other words, let's do nothing except post on message boards and endlessly debate the minutiae of mission plans.

Let's create more Five Year Plans than the Soviet Politburo.

Why do we assume that small numbers condemn us to political impotentcy?

Isn't that a self fulfilling prophecy?

For a start, the Political and Education Outreach forums should be overflowing with people starting threads and bouncing ideas around rather than  in this forum, debating launch vehicles, tethers, crew size...ad nauseum............

Offline

#16 2007-02-04 21:33:20

Marsman
Member
Registered: 2005-08-30
Posts: 146
Website

Re: July 20th, 2009 Should Be Our Goal

In other words, let's do nothing except post on message boards and endlessly debate the minutiae of mission plans.

I never said anything of the sort. In fact quite the opposite. (If you read what I said). I'm not an engineer, my interest is in seeing humans living in space and on Mars, and yes there are certain hard realities which you must accept if you are to make any progress in this area. First of all, most space groups, including the Mars Society have a large majority of engineering/scientific/technical focused members and so it is natural for them to want to discuss what interests them- mission plans, logistics, etc. It is not so natural or easy for them to be big on outreach, as history has shown us. So other solutions are needed. If you try to fight this reality and force people to get interested in what they are not, you will only succeed in alienating them and I for one value the technical minded members. Without them there will be no missions to Mars either. Their brilliance and creativity is amazing and should be encouraged. Attacking people here for not getting more into public outreach is not going to help your cause Dayton.

Thats why MarsDrive was created. Our forums and our programs are ALL aimed at public outreach. Most of our members are average citizens trying to reach other citizens for Mars. We are small and young but this type of movement was inevitable even if I was not here.

Why do we assume that small numbers condemn us to political impotentcy?

You need to have an understanding of the space community, how we formed, who dominates, and what effect we have had on NASA over the years. Anyone here who knows anything about this will tell you that so far space advocacy has had very little effect on government policy. It's not just that our small numbers doom us Dayton. It's reality. Governments barely take notice of ANY citizen based issue, even with large numbers of people behind it. Take the pro/anti abortion debate. Both sides have massive numbers. Both sides have well paid lobbyists and campaigns of outreach and influence. The government tends to keep away from that issue as a rule though, inspite of the war raging between these two sides. The same applies to other issues. What is needed are three main things-

1. Relevance/Popularity- If it is of high priority to the government and private leaders, they will listen more. For example, the war on terror, climate change, the energy crisis, the economy, etc. Either the issue is relevant to them or must be made relevant to them, and to do that requires lots of skilled people, money and time. Groups like Greenpeace have grown large due to the relevance of the issues they champion looming large in the minds of all of us.(including politicians).

2. Numbers- The mars community is tiny when compared to larger and more powerful interest groups. We are also very divided and mainly made up of technical minded members. We need a heck of a lot more average citizens to join us, and then governments and the private sector will see that our ideals are not just the rantings of a small minority of space geeks, but in fact the true will of the people. Governments do respond to large numbers and relevant issues when combined.

3. Money- We could remain small, but at the very least we need decent amounts of money so that we can engage in more useful/relevant research, professional political lobbying, professional public outreach and so forth. Interest groups with large cash reserves do stand a much better chance of sucess than those who don't. (for example the NRA).

It is not us who need our numbers to be big, it the governments and private sector that demand this.  For example, in the private sector, businesses respond to trends and demands. If a million people suddenly needed a certain product as a matter of urgency, private businesses would step in and supply demand. If one person demanded the same product no one would respond to them. It's common sense. The bigger our numbers are, the louder our voice becomes.

Think of it this way. If you ran a business selling only one type of cheese direct to the public and you wanted to break into the deli meats or exotic cheeses market what would you do? If you knew very little about those markets and how to reach them you would look to hire expert sales people and managers who were experienced in such products. This is what the Mars Society and the mars community in general needs to do. We need to get the right people in the right positions. We need to recruit political experts, financial sector experts and the general public to reach their respective groups (this will include PR/media experts).

For example, I have had people (average members of the public, not space geeks) tell me that they attended Mars Society chapter meetings and walked out halfway through because it was all over their heads. I would expect this. I myself have been to such meetings and felt like a fish out of water. I would sit at a dinner and listen to a dozen scientists and engineers having passionate discussions about all manner of highly technical details in relations to Mars missions and I would have nothing to say. In fact it was very intimidating being an average member of the public among such learned people. So I resolved to create a group that could effectively reach the public at a level they understand and enjoy. This is the unique appeal of Marsdrive. We were created by average citizens, for average citizens and we have removed some of the old barriers to public outreach already just in the first few months of our existence. If the Mars Society and other space groups gave us a bit more support and publicity we would be able to expand our effectiveness and reach which would in turn benefit all space groups, especially Mars focused ones.

I would not pretend to try and do the work of an engineer. (though I try). And the same applies to an engineer. If they are not an expert in public relations or political strategy then why would you want them to engage in such things? If something is worth doing, it's worth doing right.

For a start, the Political and Education Outreach forums should be overflowing with people starting threads and bouncing ideas around rather than in this forum, debating launch vehicles, tethers, crew size...ad nauseum............

Visit MarsDrive. Though we are small right now we do have the beginnings of just such forums. Plus forums are in the end just words, action is what matters.


welcome to [url=http://www.marsdrive.net]www.marsdrive.net[/url]

Offline

#17 2007-02-05 12:37:42

dicktice
Member
From: Nova Scotia, Canada
Registered: 2002-11-01
Posts: 1,764

Re: July 20th, 2009 Should Be Our Goal

Dayton Kitchens wrote: "For a start, the Political and Education Outreach forums should be overflowing with people starting threads and bouncing ideas around rather than in this forum, debating launch vehicles, tethers, crew size...ad nauseum..."

I'm at a loss. What your "rather" refers to are ideas, surely, and we're constantly "starting threads and bouncing [such] around." What's your point, man?

Offline

#18 2007-05-25 14:38:37

Yang Liwei Rocket
Member
Registered: 2004-03-03
Posts: 993

Re: July 20th, 2009 Should Be Our Goal

Preparing for the next Congressional blitz

http://www.thespacereview.com/article/874/1


'first steps are not for cheap, think about it...
did China build a great Wall in a day ?' ( Y L R newmars forum member )

Offline

#19 2007-06-12 05:11:59

EuroLauncher
Member
From: Europe
Registered: 2005-10-19
Posts: 299

Re: July 20th, 2009 Should Be Our Goal

Offline

#20 2007-06-12 08:37:31

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 28,747

Re: July 20th, 2009 Should Be Our Goal

Reposting what may have missed:

One might say that all presidential candidates will be facing this very issue and there stance will weigh heavily on the decisions of the voters when they cast there vote.

McCain Presidential Bid Linked to Iraq

John McCain, his presidential bid faltering and his support for the unpopular Iraq war unflinching, is seeking to convince Americans that the conflict is 'necessary and just.'

Yes you have served your country, so your view of the war is understandable but it is the insurgents culture that needs a less than civil display to get them to stop. Setting timetables of dates with no checks and balances for milestones of transformation towards democracy is not the way to go either.

The question is how is Afganistan different with our actions versus those in Iraq?

But what are the views for Nasa and space exploration? That amoung many other questions would need answering before it is time to vote.

So who are the players in the next act, Where might we find a complete list?

2008 race has the face of a changing America

'08 RACE FOR PRESIDENT
   
Edwards
   
Giuliani
   
Obama
   
Clinton

Romney

Other Republicans: Brownback | Gilmore | Hagel | Huckabee | Hunter | Pataki | Romney | Tancredo

Other Democrats: Biden | Clark | Dodd | Edwards | Kucinich | Richardson | Sharpton

Thompson to run for president in 2008


I am sure there will be a changing status on all of this as the time grows near.

Anyone know where Fred Thompson stands?

Try the Wikipedia Article on Fred Thompson.

According to several straw polls, Fred Thompson would be a front runner, but I attribute no significance to that until it becomes more than just a straw poll.  I don't count a candidate in until he's in, and Thompson appears content to vacillate until the registration deadline.

Bill Richardson throws his hat in the ring.

All right.   We now have a pro-space democrat in the US presidential race.  What's more, Richardson has a decidedly pro-alt-space record.  The range of choices for the space activist is no longer limited to McCain vs. lackluster. 

I wonder what initial polls give him for chances?

-edit-

Oh, five percent as of May 20, 2007.  I give him better odds than Al Sharpton.


Below is the mailing address and phone numbers of the major
candidates. Note: When writing your letter, try to keep it to one
page. Express you opinion and why you think it is important.

Joseph , Biden
Biden for President, Inc.
P.O. Box 438
Wilmington, DE 19899
Phone: (302) 574-2008

Hillary , Clinton
Hillary Clinton Exploratory Committee
4420 North Fairfax Drive
Arlington, VA 22203
Phone: (703) 469-2008

Christopher , Dodd
Chris Dodd for President
P.O. Box 270701
West Hartford, CT 06127
Phone: (860) 561-8843

John , Edwards
John Edwards for President
410 Market Street
Suite 400
Chapel Hill, NC 27516
Phone: (919) 636-3131

Mike, Gravel
Mike Gravel for President
P.O. Box 948
Arlington, VA. 22216-0948
Phone: 703-652-4698

Barack, Obama
Obama for President
P.O. Box 8102
Chicago, IL 60680
Phone: (866) 675-2008

Mitt, Romney
Romney for President, Inc.
P.O. Box 55899
Boston, MA. 02205-5899
Phone: (857) 288-6400

Sam Brownback
Brownback for President
P.O. Box 2008
Topeka, KS 66601-2008

James, Gilmore
Jim Gilmore for President Committee
P.O. Box 19128
Alexandria, VA 22320
Phone: 703-942-8110

Mike, Huckabee
Huckabee for President Exploratory Committee
P.O. Box 2008
Little Rock, Arkansas 72203
Phone: 1-800-871-6302

Duncan , Hunter
Hunter for President, Inc.
9340 Fuerte Drive
Suite 302
La Mesa, CA 91941
Tel: 619.463.3896

John, McCain
John McCain 2008
P.O. Box 16118
Arlington, VA 22215
Phone: (703) 418-2008
Fax: 703-413-0740

Bill, Richardson
Bill Richardson for President
811 St. Michaels Drive, Suite 206
Santa Fe, NM 87505
Phone: 505.476.2200

Tom, Tancredo|
Tancredo for a Secure America
P.O. Box 7204
McLean, VA 22106
Phone: 703.255.1399

Tommy, Thompson
Thompson Presidential for President
PO Box 15191
Alexandria, VA 22320
515-422-5100

Rudy, Giuliani
Rudy Giuliani Presidential Exploratory Committee
P.O. Box 184
New York, NY 10018
Phone: 212-835-9449

Dennis Kucinich
Kucinich for President
P.O. Box 110180
Cleveland, OH 44111
Phone: 877-413-3664

Offline

#21 2007-06-12 09:24:11

X
Member
From: Alabama
Registered: 2007-02-02
Posts: 134

Re: July 20th, 2009 Should Be Our Goal

The Planetary Society did try to launch a solar sail, but the rocket it was on exploded.

How did they get such a huge membership though?  I'd never heard of them until I came to this site.  Admittedly I'd have never heard of the Mars Society if not for Zubrin's books, but at least that is something that is out there for public consumption.  However, it is at least on a very limited basis being put out in the public's eye.

I've never been to a Mars Society convention, but that's an interesting thing mentioned earlier about the technical discussions.  Maybe there should be concurrent technical lectures with a more general overview lecture offered at the same time.  Say while one is talking about the best way to recycle water another is giving a non-technical discussion of what an ideal small base would look like given what we know right now, where it might be located and why, and that sort of thing.

Offline

#22 2007-06-12 11:21:29

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 28,747

Re: July 20th, 2009 Should Be Our Goal

The political power that these larger organization do have can make for changes but only when they all are speaking the same message.

Local news page: http://www.fosters.com/apps/pbcs.dll/se … ory=NEWS81

Lots of articles, as they are in my small state looking to get votes.

Offline

#23 2007-06-18 06:57:17

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 28,747

Re: July 20th, 2009 Should Be Our Goal

Presidential candidates and space policy

To date, none of the presidential candidates for either party has revealed any hint of what their plans might be for civil space programs. Nor have there been any questions, thus far, addressing this issue during the several debates.

Supporters of only one candidate, Senator Clinton, recently sponsored a forum to discuss possible civil space positions she could take if elected.

Offline

#24 2007-07-15 04:48:06

EuroLauncher
Member
From: Europe
Registered: 2005-10-19
Posts: 299

Re: July 20th, 2009 Should Be Our Goal

John McCain - top aides have resigned, his boat's sinking, and he's almost out of money.

Offline

#25 2007-09-17 05:56:47

EuroLauncher
Member
From: Europe
Registered: 2005-10-19
Posts: 299

Re: July 20th, 2009 Should Be Our Goal

NASA has already seen cuts, another question is whether Bush will ask for enough money to keep the vision on track and freeze spending not related to security or missile defense. NASA's budget for the Moon-Mars mission until 2008 is $12.6 billion, but only $1 billion of that is new funds; the rest will be diverted from other activities. the Bush speech was nothing like that made by JFK, public interest in Mars exploration isn't really there anymore people are more concerned with other issues such as social security reform and Iraq. The next obvious step is to look at the people who are currently being promoted as possible presidential candidates for the 2008 election and who would be best for NASA.

Offline

Board footer

Powered by FluxBB