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#1 2006-04-26 10:24:56

cIclops
Member
Registered: 2005-06-16
Posts: 3,230

Re: Ares V (CaLV) - status

Hopefully this will tie all the CaLV threads together

This report in Flight International says the RS-68  has been selected as the CaLV’s main engine!

Life-cycle cost also drove selection of the Rocketdyne RS-68 as the CaLV’s main engine, rather than the RS-25e. However, this led to an increase in CaLV core structure diameter from 8.38m, the same as the Shuttle’s external tank, to 10m. The wider core was needed to enlarge the fuel tanks to provide the extra propellant required to allow the RS-68 to burn long enough to deliver RS-25e-like performance.


Let's go to Mars and far beyond -  triple NASA's budget !   #space channel !!    - videos !!!

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#2 2006-04-26 11:24:03

GCNRevenger
Member
From: Earth
Registered: 2003-10-14
Posts: 6,056

Re: Ares V (CaLV) - status

Ten meters? This is sounding more and more like the ol' Saturn-V's planned sucessors that used solid rocket boosters instead of the massive F-1 first stage.


"The power of accurate observation is often called cynicism by those that do not have it." - George Bernard Shaw

The glass is at 50% of capacity

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#3 2006-04-26 21:48:15

John Creighton
Member
From: Nova Scotia, Canada
Registered: 2001-09-04
Posts: 2,401
Website

Re: Ares V (CaLV) - status

Ten meters? This is sounding more and more like the ol' Saturn-V's planned sucessors that used solid rocket boosters instead of the massive F-1 first stage.

Well…Griffin said that the Apollo engineers did a lot right.

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#4 2006-04-26 23:21:56

John Creighton
Member
From: Nova Scotia, Canada
Registered: 2001-09-04
Posts: 2,401
Website

Re: Ares V (CaLV) - status

Hopefully this will tie all the CaLV threads together

This report in Flight International says the RS-68  has been selected as the CaLV’s main engine!

Life-cycle cost also drove selection of the Rocketdyne RS-68 as the CaLV’s main engine, rather than the RS-25e. However, this led to an increase in CaLV core structure diameter from 8.38m, the same as the Shuttle’s external tank, to 10m. The wider core was needed to enlarge the fuel tanks to provide the extra propellant required to allow the RS-68 to burn long enough to deliver RS-25e-like performance.

From the same article:

The landing system for the Crew Exploration Vehicle (CEV) is the latest part of NASA’s planned Exploration Transportation System (ETS) to undergo re-evaluation as the US agency continues to study its options.

Okay, interesting but what are they considering?

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#5 2006-04-27 11:21:01

PurduesUSAFguy
Member
From: Purdue University
Registered: 2004-04-04
Posts: 237

Re: Ares V (CaLV) - status

I read that NASA has selected a five RS-68 first stage with a 10meter diameter. The Ares V is starting to sound alot like an all cryogenic Saturn V. I just hope they build that pad infrastructure to accomadate a four SRB configuration for future expansion.

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#6 2006-04-28 13:37:49

publiusr
Member
From: Alabama
Registered: 2005-02-24
Posts: 682

Re: Ares V (CaLV) - status

I might drop the Ares Magnum name and call it Saturn VI to get more support.

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#7 2006-04-29 06:49:19

cIclops
Member
Registered: 2005-06-16
Posts: 3,230

Re: Ares V (CaLV) - status

I might drop the Ares Magnum name and call it Saturn VI to get more support.

Either name would be better than CaLV which is really confusing ... nah let's stick (haha) with HLV, that has a nice ring to it.


Let's go to Mars and far beyond -  triple NASA's budget !   #space channel !!    - videos !!!

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#8 2006-05-04 14:10:28

publiusr
Member
From: Alabama
Registered: 2005-02-24
Posts: 682

Re: Ares V (CaLV) - status

And have the Air Force fund it by accident thinking its an RLV. That suits me just fine!

Here is a nice link:
http://www.ilr.tu-berlin.de/koelle/ILR- … ILR351.pdf

This blurb I found on the web thanks to the good people over at http://www.nasaspaceflight.com

"The www.avia.ru english newsbrief had the following news on the RD-171M:"

Russian liquid-propellant engine ZhRD-171M has been given a special designation allowing it to be  serially produced including its production by state-tailored order, according to information obtained by an ARMS-TASS correspondent at  NPO Energomash, a Russia's leading enterprise specializing in production of liquid-propellant engines. By a decision taken by the Defense Ministry and Roscosmos the engines RD-171D has been designated with 01 giving green light to the engine to be serially produced in the framework of state order, said Energomash press secretary Yuri Korotkov.  At present the RD-171M engine developed for Energiya-Buran system is mounted on rocket carriers Zenit which are used to launch space vehicles under a Morskoi Start project. At Baikonur efforts are currently being made, as well, under the Nazemny Start project providing for commercial launches with the help of Zenit boosters.

Misc:

New Threat!
http://www.ananova.com/news/story/sm_18 … ddiscovery

Space spiders for SPS:
http://www.esa.int/gsp/ACT/news_furoshiki.htm

Kliper news:
http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/forums … 10&posts=2

Sim:
http://simcosmos.planetaclix.pt/

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#9 2006-05-04 14:29:29

cIclops
Member
Registered: 2005-06-16
Posts: 3,230

Re: Ares V (CaLV) - status

Yep a very detailed history of the Saturn V, thanks.

The www.avia.ru english newsbrief had the following news on the RD-171M

For those of us who only know that the RD series are rockets engines, what is the significance of that newsbrief?

This story has come and thankfully gone, in fact it was removed from the database a few days ago, yet another example of crappy journalism (New Scientist also had the scare story) more interested in making a splash (haha) than getting the facts right.


Let's go to Mars and far beyond -  triple NASA's budget !   #space channel !!    - videos !!!

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#10 2006-05-06 20:11:11

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 15,120

Re: Ares V (CaLV) - status

September 4, 2005: The Pentagon had hoped NASA would buy into its heavy rocket program

The EELV program currently uses two launch vehicle families, the Boeing Delta IV and the Lockheed Atlas V. Either family is currently capable of lifting anywhere from 9,300 to 28,000 pounds to geosynchronous orbit. NASA's heavy launcher needs to be capable of lifting up to 220,500 pounds to low earth orbit.

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#11 2006-05-13 02:19:17

cIclops
Member
Registered: 2005-06-16
Posts: 3,230

Re: Ares V (CaLV) - status

12 May 2006: Original SSME based core stage engine solicitation cancelled by NASA. Looks like NASA are clearing the way for the RS-68.


Let's go to Mars and far beyond -  triple NASA's budget !   #space channel !!    - videos !!!

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#13 2006-05-19 07:05:52

cIclops
Member
Registered: 2005-06-16
Posts: 3,230

Re: Ares V (CaLV) - status

148708main_clv_split.jpg

As predicted: NASA have selected 5 x RS-68 for the HLV!

Full size image of RS-68 under test here  (recommended)

NASA press release here

This will be a real BFR!!


Let's go to Mars and far beyond -  triple NASA's budget !   #space channel !!    - videos !!!

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#14 2006-05-19 08:48:07

cIclops
Member
Registered: 2005-06-16
Posts: 3,230

Re: Ares V (CaLV) - status

148707main_clv.jpg

NASA concept image of whole vehicle - apologies for the image size, but she's so big, bad and beautiful  .....

The 5-segment SRBs are 53.9 m long including nose cone and have a diameter of 3.7 m. The first stage tank core is 10 m in diameter and approximately 63 m tall. Overall height including the J-2X powered upper stage is about 110 m.


Let's go to Mars and far beyond -  triple NASA's budget !   #space channel !!    - videos !!!

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#15 2006-05-19 14:53:39

Rxke
Member
From: Belgium
Registered: 2003-11-03
Posts: 3,658

Re: Ares V (CaLV) - status

Woohoo!


(Sorry, nice to see this moving ahead)


ExoMars' launcher's 2nd stage is probably en route to Mars. Unsterilised... yikes

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#16 2006-05-22 06:19:50

Grypd
Member
From: Scotland, Europe
Registered: 2004-06-07
Posts: 1,847

Re: Ares V (CaLV) - status

Jeff Bell and his view of the VSE and its engine and basic design

The VSE Booster Switch


Chan eil mi aig a bheil ùidh ann an gleidheadh an status quo; Tha mi airson cur às e.

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#17 2006-05-22 09:41:49

cIclops
Member
Registered: 2005-06-16
Posts: 3,230

Re: Ares V (CaLV) - status

Jeff Bell and his view of the VSE and its engine and basic design

The VSE Booster Switch

I don't know why I bothered to read such a negative, NASA bashing,  I told you so diatribe. Who is Jeff Bell anyway, what rocket systems has he designed or built?


Let's go to Mars and far beyond -  triple NASA's budget !   #space channel !!    - videos !!!

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#18 2006-05-22 10:29:17

PurduesUSAFguy
Member
From: Purdue University
Registered: 2004-04-04
Posts: 237

Re: Ares V (CaLV) - status

Jeff Bell and his view of the VSE and its engine and basic design

The VSE Booster Switch

I don't why I bothered to read such a negative, NASA bashing,  I told you so diatribe. Who is Jeff Bell anyway, what rocket systems has he designed or built?

He's not even an engineer, he's a retired astronomer IIRC. Occasionally he has some very astute observations, other times, well, yeah, lol.

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#19 2006-05-22 10:39:56

cIclops
Member
Registered: 2005-06-16
Posts: 3,230

Re: Ares V (CaLV) - status

An interesting find in Aerospace Daily - 22 May 2006

NASA has already opened discussions with Air Force Space Command on a potential cooperative effort on the RS-68 upgrades that will be needed to fly the engine in clusters of five.

Hopefully this will reduce the cost of the HLV first stage engine cluster not increase it!


Let's go to Mars and far beyond -  triple NASA's budget !   #space channel !!    - videos !!!

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#20 2006-05-22 16:36:21

Commodore
Member
From: Upstate NY, USA
Registered: 2004-07-25
Posts: 1,021

Re: Ares V (CaLV) - status

Jeff Bell and his view of the VSE and its engine and basic design

The VSE Booster Switch

Gloat much Jeff?

Still, Griffen is either a genius or a lucky SOB. He sold the VSE to Congress as this great hodge podge of existing equipment that will somehow be affordable and employ everyone at the same time. Then he quietly switched everything.


"Yes, I was going to give this astronaut selection my best shot, I was determined when the NASA proctologist looked up my ass, he would see pipes so dazzling he would ask the nurse to get his sunglasses."
---Shuttle Astronaut Mike Mullane

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#21 2006-05-22 16:52:55

GCNRevenger
Member
From: Earth
Registered: 2003-10-14
Posts: 6,056

Re: Ares V (CaLV) - status

Bah, all he's doing is repackaging the news and claiming he predicted it, and his entire thesis basically hinges on the SSME, which means his whole article is pretty lame.


"The power of accurate observation is often called cynicism by those that do not have it." - George Bernard Shaw

The glass is at 50% of capacity

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#22 2006-05-23 12:06:21

cIclops
Member
Registered: 2005-06-16
Posts: 3,230

Re: Ares V (CaLV) - status

Still, Griffen (sic) is either a genius or a lucky SOB. He sold the VSE to Congress as this great hodge podge of existing equipment that will somehow be affordable and employ everyone at the same time. Then he quietly switched everything.

Mike Griffin is probably both and a lot more. He's managed to wake NASA up and focus it on a real, achievable goal. All that despite the enormous difficulty of restructuring a moribund aimless organization with deep political connections that constrained its purpose and form.


Let's go to Mars and far beyond -  triple NASA's budget !   #space channel !!    - videos !!!

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#23 2006-06-05 13:40:50

cIclops
Member
Registered: 2005-06-16
Posts: 3,230

Re: Ares V (CaLV) - status

New high resolution CaLV graphic  (1500 x 844 pixels)


Let's go to Mars and far beyond -  triple NASA's budget !   #space channel !!    - videos !!!

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#24 2006-06-09 10:43:00

publiusr
Member
From: Alabama
Registered: 2005-02-24
Posts: 682

Re: Ares V (CaLV) - status

She's lovely. Unlike X-33/VentureStar--this baby can fly.

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#25 2006-06-12 21:36:33

robcwillis
Member
Registered: 2001-09-23
Posts: 71

Re: Ares V (CaLV) - status

While RS-68 is certainly not as bad a choice as producing new SSMEs to power the CaLV main stage, increasing core diameter to 10m to fit 5 RS-68s and the extra propellant they would need is a very bad idea. Production tooling and logistics equipment  that could otherwise be taken over directly from STS will have to be replaced, and pad infrastructure extensively modified. This means increased programme costs and delays.

Four RS-68s per booster should be more than adequate to maintain a reasonable thrust to mass ratio and burn time. If RS-68 is so much less efficient than SSME, the propellant needed to make up for this could be accommodated by stretching the core or the EDS. Alternately, the the number of SRBs could be increased, which would allow for the use of current stocks of four segment SRBs.

Much better than all of the above would be to maintain the “original” CaLV design proposal, but replace the 5 SSMEs with 5 RD-0120s. This configuration offers almost identical performance and better reliability at lower cost. At this point, some of the more hysterically rabid far-right ultra nationalists on this board may start screaming that  western civilization in general, and the U.S. space programme in particular, will be destroyed if the American Reich allows itself to be held hostage by the evil Slavic hordes. Such an extreme “not invented here” attitude is as irrelevant as it is silly. Aerojet has performed extensive testing on RD-0120. CADB (Kosberg) is desperate to offer them, or any other competent manufacturer a production license for a pittance. The counter argument, that RD-0120 is likely to cost as much as SSME if built by an American company,  is absurd. SSME and RS-68 are both Rocketdyne products. RS-68 costs much less than SSME because it is much less complex. RD-0120 is in most respects slightly better than  SSME while being slightly simpler than RS-68! It achieves this through an elegance of design that reflects a generally superior liquid-fuel engine technology base.  For all these reasons, RD-0120 is also the best choice to power the CLV upper stage as well as the CaLV core, which would also allow surplus stocks of SSME to be used interchangeably with RD-0120 on the core.

http://www.astronautix.com/engines/rd0120.htm

http://www.astronautix.com/lvs/cargolv.htm

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