Jupiter in a year for Europa orbiter?

DannyITR · 2006-01-26 00:58:41

I was just wondering...if New Horizons can get to Jupitor in 13 months, why the heck can't we send the same thing to Europa in the interim while we wait for the sloth JIMO? I'm sure there is a weight consideration here but send two or three with the bare minimum of equipment or something.

Does anyone know the details about why NH is so fast (ie: weight, path, propulsion etc) and if its applicable to orbters as well. I undertand NH is only a flyby of Pluto.

Julius Caeser · 2006-01-26 04:06:50

I believe its a question of weight.NH weighs just about over 300 kgs whereas spacecraft like Galileo and Cassini weigh over 1000 kg each.For the latter two to bring them into orbit around the gaseous planets,poses a limit on their accelaration for them to be able to be captured into orbit around Jupiter and Saturn.NH is not meant to orbit these 2 planets and therefore affords to reach higher velocities and just do a flyby.NH is probably the first spacecraft to be escaping the solar system rather than put into orbit around the sun.

REB · 2006-01-26 07:37:52

It might have to do with weight and fuel. You see, the more you accelerate, the more you have to decelerate when you get to where you are going, and that requires more fuel, a heaver launce vehicle, and more cost.

Stephen · 2006-02-08 03:17:19

NH is probably the first spacecraft to be escaping the solar system rather than put into orbit around the sun.

Ah! the fleeting fickleness of fame!

You're forgetting Pioneers 10 & 11 & Voyagers 1 & 2. All are on outbound trajectories.

SpaceNut · 2006-02-08 21:09:29

Yup good reminder of the past and present probes still in use even if only in a data collection mode.

But I wonder even if another copy of the New Horizon or some other probe such as the cere vista asteriod nearly complete can foot the bill for the exploration questions that we search for answers on in the first place.

I like the idea that first real scout missions should be made from a very basic probe so as to keep costs low for the initial exploration.

SpaceNut · 2020-07-07 20:13:56

Bump to group up similar topics

Mars_B4_Moon · 2021-07-24 06:23:16

Looks like Musk is going to Jupiter for NASA, ESA will launch a European missions, Russians and Chinese might go also with a nuke-space tug or interstellar mission
....politics...maybe a Win for the US Private Sector and SpaceX, but a blow to SLS.

NASA Awards Launch Services Contract for the Europa Clipper Mission
https://www.nasa.gov/press-release/nasa … er-mission

The ESA mission under tests?
https://socci.esa.int/web/juice

SpaceNut · 2021-07-25 21:24:48

SpaceX Falcon Heavy to launch NASA ocean moon explorer, saving the US billions

Known as Europa Clipper, the six metric ton (~13,300 lb) spacecraft will instead launch on a SpaceX Falcon Heavy rocket for less than $180M. Had Falcon Heavy not been ready or NASA shied away from the challenge of switching launch vehicles, sending the ~$4.25 billion orbiter to Jupiter could have easily added more than $3 billion to the mission’s total cost. Instead, Europa Clipper will be able to launch one or two years earlier than SLS would have been ready and at a cost that’s practically a rounding error relative to the alternative.

Since there is now another rocket for the crews to make use of rather than the SLS for under 70 metric ton payloads....

Measuring approximately 3100 km (~1940 mi) in diameter, Europa is approximately 10% smaller and 30% less massive than Earth’s Moon. Both are similar balls of rock with solid metallic cores. However, based on observations taken over decades by spacecraft and Earth-based telescopes, odds are good that Europa also has a vast liquid water ocean insulated by 10-30 km (6-20 mi) of ice so cold that it’s as hard as granite.
Scientists estimate that Europa’s saltwater ocean is dozens to 100+ km (~62 mi) deep, covers the moon’s entire surface, and holds more water than all of Earth’s oceans combined. Signs of a liquid ocean under Europa’s crust (and the crust of numerous other outer solar system moons, as it would turn out) were especially surprising because of the implication that those moons possessed vast heat sources. In the case of Europa, it’s believed that Jupiter’s immense gravitational pull and the moon’s close orbit are balanced in such a way that Europa is heated as those tidal forces violently stretch and squeeze its interior.
In an orbit 30% lower than Europa, tidal heating is so aggressive that the moon Io is littered with titanic volcanoes and lava lakes more than 200 km (~120 mi) across – so large that waves have been spotted on its surface with Earth-based telescopes. In short, because Europa appears to be in the right place to have enough – but not too much – tidal heating, it’s believed to be one of the best potential harbors of extraterrestrial life and Europa Clipper’s primary purpose is to pursue that potential astrobiological treasure trove.

Mars_B4_Moon · 2021-12-30 09:51:19

I thought this news topic could go here

Scientists Find Unexpected Trove of Life Forms Beneath Antarctic Ice Shelf
https://www.theverge.com/2021/12/29/228 … -ice-shelf

Little is known about the environment beneath Antarctica's floating ice shelves, the seaward extensions of the continent's glaciers that span 1.6 million square kilometers. It's a harsh, cold environment shrouded in continuous darkness, and previous studies of life beneath the ice have only documented a few dozen hardy life forms. The new research, published earlier this month in Current Biology, identified more species in a single spot than had previously been documented across all the ice shelves of the frozen continent. After drilling two holes through the Weddell Sea's Ekstrom Ice Shelf, the researchers collected seabed specimens in 2018. They found the biodiversity on this patch of seafloor to be "richer than many open water samples found on the continental shelf where there is light and food sources," according to a press release from the British Antarctic Survey. Four of the species studied experienced yearly growth rates "comparable with similar animals" in open water habitats.

SpaceNut · 2021-12-30 10:39:06

Yes part of the thoughts for existence of life under the ice shell of Europa...

Mars_B4_Moon · 2021-12-30 15:02:14

A 1:18 scale model of Juice, ESA’s spacecraft to explore the Jupiter system, is being employed to test its radar antenna.

The working version of the RIME instrument (Radar for Icy Moons Exploration), incorporating a 16-m long version of the straight ‘dipole’ boom seen here under the model spacecraft, will probe up to 9 km deep under the surfaces of the gas giant’s main ‘Galilean’ moons.
The testing took place in ESA’s Hertz (Hybrid European RF and Antenna Test Zone) chamber based at ESA’s ESTEC technical heart in the Netherlands.

https://www.esa.int/ESA_Multimedia/Imag … er_s_moons

Metal walls screen outside radio signals, while spiky foam interior cladding absorbs radio signals internally to create conditions simulating the infinite void of space.

This chamber’s hybrid nature makes it unique: Hertz can assess radio signals from antennas either on a local ‘near-field’ basis or as if the signal has crossed thousands of kilometres of space, allowing it to serve all kinds of satellites and antenna systems.

RIME is the #JUICE ice-penetrating radar by Thales_Alenia_S
https://twitter.com/ESA_JUICE/status/14 … 6055701507
, sounding the icy surfaces down to a depth of 9 km with vertical resolution up to 50m, it is key to mission success for its ability to directly identify & map the internal structure of the ice layers.

Last edited by Mars_B4_Moon (2021-12-30 15:05:42)

Mars_B4_Moon · 2022-01-11 16:22:14

Europa Clipper imaging system captures breathtaking 'first light' images
https://phys.org/news/2022-01-europa-cl … aking.html

on the topic of Pluto

New Horizons is the fifth space probe to achieve the escape velocity needed to leave the Solar System.

The one question about Pluto that just won’t die down
https://www.slashgear.com/the-one-quest … -10706464/

Some say Europa might be a better place than Mars to find life, it is a frozen, icy world world but many scientists are confident that below the frozen surface lies a salt-water ocean, moving lifeforms and a rocky seafloor. What is underneath, some state ice floating on an ocean of liquid water compared to rock floating on magma on the Earth there might be extremophiles or good conditions to host life.

Europa Jupiter System Mission
https://solarsystem.nasa.gov/studies/51 … m-mission/

PDF mission download link

Last edited by Mars_B4_Moon (2022-01-11 16:26:37)

Mars_B4_Moon · 2022-06-11 08:12:09

Europa: Catching Up with the Clipper

https://www.centauri-dreams.org/2022/06 … e-clipper/

Mars_B4_Moon · 2023-08-21 15:46:39

NASA, DARPA to launch nuclear rocket to orbit by early 2026
https://www.space.com/nasa-darpa-nuclea … draco-2026

More info from Clipper and Juice

Our mission will study Jupiter's ocean moon Europa from space. But future expeditions might directly explore the surface of icy worlds like Europa or Enceladus, and drill into their watery depths. How to prepare? Start on Earth! Welcome to Alaska’s Juneau Icefield
https://twitter.com/EuropaClipper/statu … 9980188672

Two more ESAJuice instruments are working in space and have delivered their first data
But the commissioning wasn't entirely plain sailing.
https://twitter.com/ESA_JUICE/status/16 … 5094959104

GW Johnson · 2023-08-22 08:30:02

I would not hold my breath waiting for anyone to recreate NERVA by 2026, much less add any upgrades to its 1970-vintage design.

There's an old adage that says "Rocket science ain't just science, it's only about 40% science, the stuff that was written down. It's about 50% art (the stuff never written down), and 10% blind dumb luck." I would add that that's for production work. For new developments, the art and luck percentages are much higher. And, it applies to engineering generally, not just rocket work.

The art was never written down because managers never wanted to pay for writing down any more than they had to in the final reports. The art was passed-on one-on-one on-the-job from the old hands nearing retirement to the newbies.

There's now only a single handful of people still alive (indeed, if any at all) who actually worked on nuclear thermal rocketry from the 1950's to the mid-1970's when it was all shut down. So where are the newbies at any contractor going to learn the art that was never passed-on or written down? With only the written science to help, the odds of success are quite low indeed.

GW

Last edited by GW Johnson (2023-08-22 08:31:37)

GW Johnson · 2023-08-23 07:41:14

The recent failure of the Russian Luna-25 moon mission pretty much is an example of the case I just tried to make in post 15 just above. They managed somehow to screw up a deceleration burn (it ran overtime, causing a crash instead of a change to lower orbit). It has been almost 50 years since they last attempted such a moon mission, and still quite a spell since they attempted such a thing at Mars. With a time gap like that, where did the current mission crew learn the unwritten art, so necessary to success? Answer: they did not, and it shows.

GW

GW Johnson · 2023-08-23 07:48:03

I see the Indian moon mission successfully landed. The article includes a paragraph about the failed Russian landing. It includes a quote from Russian management that confirms exactly what I said in post 16 above.

GW

quoted paragraph from news story released on PBS website:

India’s successful landing comes just days after Russia’s Luna-25, which was aiming for the same lunar region, spun into an uncontrolled orbit and crashed. It would have been the first successful Russian lunar landing after a gap of 47 years. Russia’s head of the state-controlled space corporation Roscosmos attributed the failure to the lack of expertise due to the long break in lunar research that followed the last Soviet mission to the moon in 1976.

Mars_B4_Moon · 2023-09-12 06:45:09

Nuclear powered spacecraft will take first humans to Mars
https://www.earth.com/news/could-a-nucl … p-to-mars/

How the JUICE mission will look for habitability on Jupiter's moons
https://www.newscientist.com/article/mg … ers-moons/

Clipper JPL NASA

Our spacecraft is nearly assembled!
https://twitter.com/europaclipper/statu … 9945917872

Mars_B4_Moon · 2023-09-19 13:13:50

Juice: why’s it taking sooo long to reach Jupiter

https://www.esa.int/Enabling_Support/Op … _sooo_long

Mars_B4_Moon · 2023-12-10 09:52:01

There’s one place where the case for nuclear power is [ indisputable ]
https://uk.finance.yahoo.com/news/one-p … 49671.html

8 alternative spaceflight concepts that could take us to the stars
https://interestingengineering.com/list … cept-stars
Using existing technologies, it would take 18,000 years to reach our nearest star, Proxima Centauri.

Mars_B4_Moon · 2023-12-12 12:58:53

Jupiter Icy Moons Orbiter JIMO mentioned in this thread was a proposed NASA spacecraft, it might have used NEXIS engine and powered by a small fission reactor or High Power Electric Propulsion (HiPEP) is a variation of ion thruster for use in nuclear electric propulsion. Project Prometheus or Project Promethian was established in 2003 by NASA to develop nuclear-powered systems for long-duration space missions.
https://web.archive.org/web/20220128231 … s-to-mars/

Small Fission Power System Feasibility Study Final Report
https://solarsystem.nasa.gov/studies/22 … al-report/

NASA unveils nuclear-powered Cryobot mission concept to hunt alien life
https://interestingengineering.com/inno … alien-life

Rolls-Royce Unveils Groundbreaking Nuclear Space Micro-Reactor For Powering Moon Bases
https://www.mensjournal.com/gear/the-gu … moon-bases-

Is Juice coming back home?
https://twitter.com/ESA_JUICE/status/17 … 5318438319
It is, but only briefly
Using its main engine, ESAJuice has recently changed its orbit around the Sun to put itself on the correct trajectory for next summer’s Earth-Moon double gravity assist – the first of its kind.

Past and future: this timeline lays out the milestones in our journey to Jupiter and Europa

https://twitter.com/EuropaClipper/statu … 6597194785

Last edited by Mars_B4_Moon (2023-12-12 13:05:03)

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#1 2006-01-26 00:58:41

Re: Jupiter in a year for Europa orbiter?

#2 2006-01-26 04:06:50

Re: Jupiter in a year for Europa orbiter?

#3 2006-01-26 07:37:52

Re: Jupiter in a year for Europa orbiter?

#4 2006-02-08 03:17:19

Re: Jupiter in a year for Europa orbiter?

#5 2006-02-08 21:09:29

Re: Jupiter in a year for Europa orbiter?

#6 2020-07-07 20:13:56

Re: Jupiter in a year for Europa orbiter?

#7 2021-07-24 06:23:16

Re: Jupiter in a year for Europa orbiter?

#8 2021-07-25 21:24:48

Re: Jupiter in a year for Europa orbiter?

#9 2021-12-30 09:51:19

Re: Jupiter in a year for Europa orbiter?

#10 2021-12-30 10:39:06

Re: Jupiter in a year for Europa orbiter?

#11 2021-12-30 15:02:14

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#12 2022-01-11 16:22:14

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#13 2022-06-11 08:12:09

Re: Jupiter in a year for Europa orbiter?

#14 2023-08-21 15:46:39

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#15 2023-08-22 08:30:02

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#16 2023-08-23 07:41:14

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#19 2023-09-19 13:13:50

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#20 2023-12-10 09:52:01

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