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#51 2019-03-08 17:31:53

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 15,587

Re: Quadracycles

Some of the Nasa lunar buggy did do just that but point taken for none athletic types being put to a test. Oh wait a minute I'm 60 plus and use a Workman trike with a cargo basket to haul under 100 lb object if required possible 1 to 4 time in a days time for round trips of at least a mile each time. Not totally flat but no large super hills either or assist motors.

The generator and even regen breaking could be decoupled by magnetic coupling or a simple cluch plate system to allow for battery operation and for charging.

We would want life support capability for 2 inside of the units passenger area from battery storage that is capable of a 24/7 supply when in use from any combination of solar, pedalling or fuel cell technology used. We would need to make water, waste, external Co2 and well as internal to feed a moxie unit to aid in ensuring oxygen. One could use a balloon bladder or composite tanks to store excess as its made.

Water could be broken down if required to make oxygen and to be used in the RGWS with the extra co from the Moxie unit.

Food supplies would mean that a stash of some snack no cook foods to keep energy to minimal use for the life support. Hoping that food caches are within reach as well as power that is stored at the hub units.

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#52 2019-03-08 18:55:31

tahanson43206
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Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 785

Re: Quadracycles

For SpaceNut ref #51 ...

Thanks for your ** really interesting ** extensions of the basic Idea for a Mars qualified Personal Mobility Vehicle with mechanical assist capability.

Thanks too, for mentioning the Workman trike.  I have one of those (another brand), for personal use, so appreciate the fact you've been able to use it in a "real world" setting.

I hope that others add to this thread, to build up the detail that would allow someone (at some point) to tackle design and fabrication of a prototype.

A perfectly workable prototype could be built on Earth and tested thoroughly, without putting anyone at serious risk.  There is risk just getting out of bed, so it certainly can't be eliminated, but it would be a fraction of what a Mars user will face.

I like your addition (if I understand your post correctly) of food supplies to the periodic recharging posts that we can imagine might be set up along Martian dirt trails to help travelers in emergency situations.

***
As as a preview of a post I hope to make soon to Josh's "book" topic, I'm currently reading a story in the latest Analog, which envisions a race to the top of Mount Olympus by competing teams of climbers from Earth.  I like some of the ideas for technology the author has brought to life in the story, and hope to highlight them.

***
I'd like to note contributions by kbd512 to the discussion, with (to me) interesting points about how to use electrical systems to permit people of differing physical capability to contribute to the success of an emergency recovery effort.

(th)

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#53 2019-03-08 20:28:39

kbd512
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Registered: 2015-01-02
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Re: Quadracycles

tahanson43206,

There's nothing wrong with testing the concept in a benign environment first, followed by an off-road environment, a vacuum chamber, and then on the moon.  It's too much of a risk to rely upon without serious engineering effort going into the final product.  Many materials don't behave in as they do on Earth when they're exposed to vacuum and background high radiation levels.  I suspect the development costs would be somewhere in the neighborhood of $20M to $40M for the vehicle.  I've no clue what the life support systems would cost, but it won't be cheap.  NASA has spent $200M on the new space suits and those are nowhere near ready for space flight.  The current flight-qualified space suits cost $12M each.

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#54 2019-03-10 19:35:50

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
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Posts: 15,587

Re: Quadracycles

I am reminded of the current bubble cars to leverage from
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_Electric_Motorcars

top speed of 25 mph (40 km/h) GEM cars have a range of 30–100 miles (50–160 km) on a charge depending on the installed battery technology. They are battery-electric, operate on a 72-volt battery system and plug into a standard 3-prong 120-volt outlet for recharging, and fully recharge in six to eight hours.

microlino-ev-prototype-1-300x169.jpg?x58405

Of course there is the smart car products which are also a place to base design from.

The more that we require of the hybrid vehicle design the heavier it gets and the more HP for the motor and the same from the wattage of its batteries which can put Human power out of being possible.

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#55 2019-03-10 19:44:38

kbd512
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Re: Quadracycles

SpaceNut,

If you made that vehicle taller and a little wider, such that a single suited-up astronaut could walk into the vehicle and walk out of it, and it was made from our new nano materials to drive the weight out of the design, then something like that might actually work.  It needs bigger tires and a real suspension system, but that's a minor point.  I forgot about those things.  It was a neat concept, but the implementation was poor.

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#56 2019-03-10 20:39:41

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 15,587

Re: Quadracycles

I agree the modifications are not all that big of a deal for taking the base concept into a real prototype. Something that could be tried even at the analog stations that we could see how it would be for a real mission.

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#57 2019-03-10 21:20:43

tahanson43206
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Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 785

Re: Quadracycles

for SpaceNut ... re #54 .... Nice catch!  This thread is coming along !!!

For kbd512 ... It's fun to see your support, and particularly suggestions for materials that might make the design practical for Mars.

I've not forgotten your $12,000,000 estimate for development, but am keeping in mind that costs on that level for a modern automobile are probably quite low. The question an investor would ask is whether the long term market opportunity exists.  It takes a bold investor to see that possibility, but (I'm guessing) such people are alive on Earth today, hopefully pulling good grades in lower school.

One suggestion I'd like to toss into the mix is that the Personal Mobility Vehicle could be considered to ** be ** the space suit.  In that scenario, the operator would enter the vehicle while it is snugged to a port on a habitat, secure the hatch just as is done today at ISS, secure the vehicle door, release air to the outside or scavenge it as much as possible before venting, and then undock.

(th)

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#58 2019-03-11 08:47:20

tahanson43206
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Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 785

Re: Quadracycles

Underwater docking of autonomous research vehicles is (apparently) in use at a location managed by the Woods Hole Oceanographic Institution. A Google search yielded numerous citations which appear to indicate that underwater docking for unmanned vehicles is in research/testing mode at a number of locations.

However, I did not find a report on underwater docking for human use, so would be interested if anyone in the NewMars community can find one.

Docking on Mars would be complicated by the presence of dust in the air, so a mechanism for exclusion of dust at the seal would seem necessary, whether the portal is for a person in a suit or for a vehicle as suggested in #57 above.

(th)

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#59 2019-03-11 17:23:02

SpaceNut
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Re: Quadracycles

The air lock to walk out of I was reminded of from the old lunar base inflateables of the early constellationprogram work.
170069main_influnarhab01-330.jpg
ILC Dover inflatable planetary surface habitat and airlock unit

Camping on the Moon Will Be One Far Out Experience - 23 Feb 2007

One team of experts from NASA's Langley Research Center, NASA's Johnson Space Center and NASA contractor ILC Dover LP is looking at inflation-deployed expandable structures as one possible building block for a lunar base.

As a starting point, ILC Dover has delivered a 12-foot (3.65 meter) diameter inflatable structure made of multilayer fabric to Langley for ground-based evaluation of emerging technologies such as flexible structural health monitoring systems, self-healing materials and radiation protective materials. Attached to the structure is a smaller inflatable structure that serves as a demonstration airlock. Both are essentially pressurized cylinders, connected by an airtight door.

The "planetary surface habitat and airlock unit" can also be used to evaluate materials, lightweight structure technologies, astronaut interfaces, dust mitigation techniques, and function with robotics and other lunar surface equipment. "Inflatables can be used as connectors or tunnels between crew quarters and can provide radiation shelter if covered with lunar regolith (soil)," said Chris Moore, Exploration Technology Development Program program executive at NASA Headquarters.

So a bed behind the windshield made with the inflateable to enter sound possible and that would be a huge reduction in mass as well via the materials being used.

To remove some cost why not use some of the rovers of mars electronics to make it possible.

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#60 2019-03-11 17:52:11

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
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Posts: 15,587

Re: Quadracycles

Inside of the air lock
170071main_influnarhab02-330.jpg

with plenty of room inside for a crew or just a couple of people
170073main_influnarhab03-330.jpg

More of the design work from a decade ago

roverspev5.jpg
Small Pressurized Rover Design Features

This image and much more from the Lunar Architecture Update (PDF 8MB)  - 20 Sep 2007

Lots of stuff in the document with the lunar rover suits being attached to the ouside of the unit.
http://images.spaceref.com/news/2007/AI … E.2007.pdf

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#61 2019-03-11 18:35:07

tahanson43206
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Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 785

Re: Quadracycles

for SpaceNut #59 and #60 .... thanks for these reminders of work done in 2007 ...

I appreciated the images...2007.pdf.  What an amount of thought and presentation technique is represented.

The inflatable hab structure and separate docking portal are impressive.  I note that the metal doors and rims were designed to withstand significant pressure, although I didn't dive in deep enough to know if 15 psi was intended. 

Out of curiosity, I asked Wikipedia for notes on the ISS airlock:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quest_Joint_Airlock

Camp-out procedure

Quest provides an environment where astronauts can "camp out" before a spacewalk in a reduced-nitrogen atmosphere to purge nitrogen from their bloodstream and avoid decompression sickness in the low-pressure (4.3 psi, 30 kPa) pure-oxygen atmosphere of the spacesuit.[2] The previous method of preparing for spacewalks involved breathing pure oxygen for several hours prior to an EVA to purge the body of nitrogen. In April 2006, Expedition 12 Commander Bill McArthur and Expedition 13 flight engineer Jeffrey Williams tested a new method of preparing for spacewalks by "camping out", or spending the night, in the Quest Airlock.[3] In the chamber, the pressure was reduced from the normal 14.7 to 10.2 psi (101 to 70 kPa).[2] Four hours into the Expedition 13 crew's sleep period, an error tone prompted mission controllers to cut short the activity, but the test was still deemed a success. American spacewalk activities thereafter have employed the "camp-out" pre-breathing technique.[2][3][4]

These real life examples show that various pressures might be employed in various components of life support systems on Mars.

On the other hand, it might be preferable to try to maintain the same air pressure in all locations, to avoid the time consuming adaptation procedures that have been and (I gather) are still in use in the American space suit procedures.

The tradeoff is that the airlock and the Personal Mobility Vehicle would have to be stronger to hold sealevel pressure that would be the case if lower pressure were chosen for some reason.

(th)

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#62 2019-03-11 18:36:50

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
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Posts: 15,587

Re: Quadracycles

Here is the attached suits...
https://www.lpi.usra.edu/lunar/constell … NF2008.pdf
it also contains the too many wheeled chariot truck design...we will want something that simpler
https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn … nar-rover/

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#63 2019-03-12 20:05:56

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 15,587

Re: Quadracycles

I happened onto one of the strangest of small vehicle that qualifies to be no licence or neighborhood vehicle...

Images of Peel P50

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peel_P50
"three-wheeler" 900 lb; 410 kg
just 49cc which is what a moped would use to stay away from all of the licencing at a roaring 28 mph (45 km/h). withj a 125 cc that could zip along at 60...

But sure its way to small...

So I started to look at if it was electric and how to convert the HP of gas to watts for battery use.

So what is 1 Horse Power? Its a motor that is 750 watts. With 1 HP also in the 15-17 cc size such that the 49cc is about 2.5 kw for an electric motor to be able to move the above mass.

Some things that we know for motors:
a larger motor will use less current to move the same mass up to a point and then it become more than what is needed. The batteries also function the same as the higher the voltage the less the currents but if we need power its amp/hrs that will rule for duration of operation.

So performance matrics are needed to bound the design:
Duration of being occupied
Distance to travel
manifest of supplies volume and mass
life support values
Space suit with known duration that it can be used as this might serve as a backup to extend getting to cache or base

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#64 2019-03-12 20:17:42

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 15,587

Re: Quadracycles

This is a simple kit but there are lots of pieces
p50-car-replica-kit-parts-spares-1962-blue.jpg

A mars vehicle will be even more complex we will need to be able to keep it running without the resupply from earth cycles to depend on so simple and robust is what we will need for the design.

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#65 2019-03-13 17:39:27

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 15,587

Re: Quadracycles

The term HP is the effort to move a mass is a period of time.
33,000 FT/lb per minute or 550 ft/lb per seconds.

The average person can walk at roughly 2.5 mph which relates to near 250 watts of course if we went to run then its up to the physical condition one coulds sustain a level of 400-500 watts with a sprint boosting the power level to twice that.

On earth atmospheric drag does cause quite a bit of energy lose to the rider but on mars thats not the same case. That said torque to the wheels and then speed if smooth driving is possible from pedalling or from electric motor use. That makes mass and energy the limiting factors for use.

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#66 2019-03-16 20:25:54

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
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Posts: 15,587

Re: Quadracycles

Any design and fabrication will go through a research stage with a list of goals for what needs to be obtained as the results. Sometimes you can use items that are comercial off the shelf but when conditions go to extreme then the added research for design is needed, for every motor there is a power controller that makes the motor work.

https://www.instructables.com/id/DIY-MO … ontroller/

Other items would be the batteries, generator design and yes even the wheels., shape of pedals and distance of throw for each stroke.

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#67 2019-03-17 09:45:21

GW Johnson
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From: McGregor, Texas USA
Registered: 2011-12-04
Posts: 3,523
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Re: Quadracycles

Reminder:  the work to bend limbs walking in a gas balloon-type pressure suit is very large,  even at 3-4 psi pure oxygen pressure. 

Part of that is the apparent stiffness induced by inflation pressure,  and part of that is the inherent stiffness of many layers of materials coupled together in a one-piece do-everything garment. 

This is why people walking in those suits go slower,  and for shorter trips,  than humans in street clothing on Earth.  That same effect also limits very sharply the human pedal power that can reach the vehicle's drivetrain,  much less its wheels.

I'd hazard the ballpark guess that an Apollo-type moonsuit (not as stiff as the EVA suits on ISS today) would double,  or possibly triple,  the power expended walking at 2-3 mph from Spacenut's 250 W to well over 500 W. 

I think I've said it before somewhere on these forums:  if you want a human-powered vehicle,  you'd better provide a supple MCP suit,  or it won't be feasible. 

And you have do do your MCP suit as vacuum protective underwear (along the lines of Webb's "space activity suit") underneath loose-fitting outer clothing,  not the one-piece do-everything garment that was under development for a time at MIT.

One-piece do-everything is the wrong approach for the design of an EVA suit on any planetary surface. 

GW

Last edited by GW Johnson (2019-03-17 09:47:45)


GW Johnson
McGregor,  Texas

"There is nothing as expensive as a dead crew,  especially one dead from a bad management decision"

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#68 2019-03-17 10:54:16

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 15,587

Re: Quadracycles

As you note a special mars suit is required to make Human powered and even for health fitness use it is much needed. Designed of multiple parts to make it easy to put on and if the full duration moon suit is required the layers are removed in comfort and the suit is put on.

Related topics:
Physical Fitness and Gravity

Spacesuits - Its about time we came back to them

Pressurized Air in Suits

Powered Spacesuits

Spacesuits - personal spaceship

New idea for Mechanical CounterPressure suit

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#69 2019-03-22 18:39:54

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 15,587

Re: Quadracycles

Started to run single crewman use of the vehicle life support here at post 400 but the complete topic relates to how we would survive.

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#70 2019-03-24 20:44:16

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 15,587

Re: Quadracycles

Based on this page a one crew member transport that is hybird powered is capable of life support.
http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=7687&p=17

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#71 2019-03-25 16:54:11

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
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Re: Quadracycles

The Rapid Cycle Amine (RCA 2.0) System Development
28 volts buss powered with a Power Input 5 Watts or less for operation. It overall volume is : ~0.47 ft3 (~13.3 Liters), System Mass: 16 lbm (7.26 kg), System proof pressure demonstrated to 13.7 PSIG, 28.4 PSIA over vacuum.

It would seem that the pack would do what we wanted once wired in.

DESIGN GUIDELINES FOR CARBON DIOXIDE SCRUBBERS
https://apps.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a160181.pdf

LIFE SUPPORT SYSTEM for EXTRAVEHICULAR ACTIVITY
http://www.ocw.nur.ac.rw/NR/rdonlyres/A … system.pdf

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#72 2019-03-25 18:08:05

kbd512
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Registered: 2015-01-02
Posts: 2,834

Re: Quadracycles

SpaceNut,

Power consumption figures appear on Page 12 of the first NTRS report link you provided in Post #71.  Peak output was 12We, idle was 3We, and time-weighted average electrical power consumption over 8 hours was 3.1We.  The valve drive power consumption varied between 0.5We to 0.8We. The developmental goals of 5We was and is irrelevant to actual demonstrated performance at specific test points.  In practice, CAMRAS exceeded developmental goals set by whomever.  The column on the right contains the listing of actual test point power consumption totals by peak output, idle, and time-weighted average over 8 hours.

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#73 2019-03-25 18:54:50

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 15,587

Re: Quadracycles

The generated power from pedaling will not be done for all that many hours but calculating for constant budgetting will need to take place for all constant demands as we will be lucky to do more than a 1 or 2 hour intervals before resting and hopefully being able to do it again with a final for the night charge up. Augmenting with some solar cells as part of the shell would be a plus in that regard to help in maintaining battery levels.

http://www.recumbents.com/wisil/e-bent/

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#74 2019-03-26 20:20:27

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 15,587

Re: Quadracycles

When you search for human pedal power generation of power you find the typical alternator style design which is a high rpm input device needing well over 1,000 rpm to achive half of less of the rating of power from the device.

pedal-power-generator-voltage-output-per-rpm.jpg

example sites:
http://pedalpowergenerator.com/diy-byo/ this is a kit site

diy-pedal-power-generator-kit_small.jpg

notice the large pedal wheel required to get the rpm to generator that is in contact with it.
http://www.los-gatos.ca.us/davidbu/pedgen.html

http://www.pmgenerators.com/lowrpmgenerators/
perameters of a good low rpm is what windmills are using for the most part

https://www.lowtechmagazine.com/build-y … hines.html
this one turns the wheel into a flywheel by adding mass

https://www.re-innovation.co.uk/bespoke … _Plans.pdf
this gives the typical bike generator of 100-200 w power level of course it may be able for some to get to that 300 - 400 w but not the average athlete.

The ability to wire coils in WYE versus Delta does give the ability to lower the RPM's for generating power as well.

Matching the wire awg (guage) to what is needed for the amps is another to aid in controlling the heat when in operation.

The stronger the better for making lines of flux for the magnet is another of the features for a more powerful generator.

Numbers of magnets and coils spread out over a large diameter is another of the features to boost power output.

Using 2 magnets for each coil with one on each side that alternates pole polarity is another means to boost the power produced by each coil.

Design and Development of a Power Cycle Working Module (Power Generation by Manual pedal)
lots of design equations and indicates how to use the gear ration to step up the RPMs for the turn of the shaft of the generator.

108 pg of different designs
Principal of electrical machinery and optimization of electrical power

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#75 2019-03-26 20:59:43

tahanson43206
Member
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 785

Re: Quadracycles

For SpaceNut re #74 ... Thanks for another great search collection!

Thanks too, for keeping the topic focused.

While reading the post (before diving into the links) I had a mental picture of the power generating mechanism inside a small plastic bubble pressure vessel, on a vehicle mounted on rails for travel in Mars normal atmosphere through tunnels.  What I'm imagining here is a least cost solution for reliable movement between locations in Sagan City or a similar built up community.  The battery packs could be be kept charged at the docking port for each living quarters facility or economic activity facility, and recharged by the operator if desired or simply allowed to drive the vehicle if not.  In either case, the use of level rails should keep energy requirements for movement down. 

Recent discussion of carbon dioxide scrubbing, oxygen re-supply, and moisture management in another topic reminds me that those necessary services would draw power, so the designer will have a challenge to create a vehicle that would be practical, durable and affordable for the Mars tunnel network.

One advantage (I just thought of) of the tunnel network is that re-supply caches can be spotted at frequent locations between domicile ports, as part of a community support plan.

(th)

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