The Methane Based Economy - Exploring Mars in a Reusable Manner

John Creighton · 2004-12-20 11:51:55

I am having difficulty trying to figure out how reusability with is desirable for a scientific base and mobility which is desirable for exploration can be incorporated. Given the money spent on mars it is imperative that as much return in science and engineering is achieved for those dollars as possible. This is the weakness of mars direct. (Mars direct)/(The Case for Mars) says this is how we can go to mars and this is why we must go problem solved. The reasons offered by Zurbrin are often historically week and it is great he figured out how to get to mars cheaply but it should not be the final say. Zubrin figured out how to do Apollo on mars and that is great but we have time to figure out how to do much more. Appollo was a short sited program whose focus was not on science or engineering but betting the Russians there. The got there but they weren’t ready to stay.

So although Appllo achieved a lot of science which was great it could of achieved a lot more with proper planning. They just grabbed rocks. They had no idea which ones to take. Mars is a vast world with a surface area as big as all the dry land on earth and some of the most impressive land marks in the solar system. It would be a shame to spend all the time in one little base and not venture outward to find more and more of what mars has to offer. But traveling across mars like no mads makes it difficult to carry supplies. There is little opportunity for reusability and in-situ resource utilization because refuellable power plants and factories are big.

My alternative is analogues to the hydrogen economy. The reactor and the ISRU unit is not carried with the base each mission. Instead a 1 cm diameter inflatable pipeline is layed down across the land to transport the methane from the old base to the new base. Each mission picks a new site a few hundred kilometers from the old site. Power is transmitted by pumping methane gas. The gas is later converted to electricity on the rovers by small generators. Although power could also be transmitted by transmission lines, transmission lines will probably weigh much more and will only transport power and not import resources like hydrogen and carbon. Is it feasible. I don’t know. Time to crunch some numbers.

SpaceNut · 2004-12-20 15:23:16

Makes sense creating a network of methane pipes to provide the resource much needed. Similar to the power grid here on Earth.

Maybe as well there should also be a solar power or a nuclear power grid and possibly a water line as well.

John Creighton · 2004-12-20 15:35:09

Maybe as well there should also be a solar power or a nuclear power grid and possibly a water line as well.

A water grid would be much more difficult to build because it would have to well insulated, hopefully built to withstand freezing, and it will probably need some kind of heaters to be turned on when the pipes freeze or just before they freeze if there are temperature sensors. A water pipeline will also need more pumps since it will be more viscous and is incompressible. I was thinking that initially just methane and ammonia pipes could be used. Water should be a byproduct of the generators and can be condensed and filtered. Ammonia could be used for fertilizer. If there was an air pipe then all life-support could be taken care of from a central location with the odd fan/pump here and there. Some backup systems would of course be desirable but may be built later.

Elaborating on this grid model further some resources would be produced from a central location and others would be produced locally. Various fault diction schemes could be set up to detect bad air or breaks in pipes and resources rerouted appropriately. If one base is abandoned then all of its life support and gas/(liquid)/power production could be dumped back into the grid. This would allow old bases to temporarily supply the life support needs of newer bases until more local production is in place.

I presume as mars grows it will have a combination of piplines, power lines, and communication lines. The more important lines will travel between bases and the other lines may be more intra base connections. I think methane will initially be one of the more important pipelines.

SpaceNut · 2004-12-20 21:28:43

The water line I was thinking of was sub surface rather than open to the elements but that would come very late in terms of development unless robotically done. Simple pvc pipe probably would do but that would be hard to make with the insitu available materials.
But you are thinking in the right direction to make things reuseable and not discard them just because you chose to land in a different area of mars in order to do more science.

Timeslicer · 2004-12-22 12:09:44

At around 10cubic meters per 100km of 1cm tubing, It might be smarter to just make a good big tank on wheels? One of the first chores would be to fetch the tank. Less chance of a micrometeor hit too, at a few square meters vs about 10000 sq-m.

John Creighton · 2004-12-22 13:01:10

Well 10 square meters of tubing doesn’t sound so bad. It won’t have to be that thick either to withstand the pressure since the radius is small but I agree a tanker is a good idea. A robotic tanker could travel between two bases on a GPS guided route which was first navigated by tellerobotic control either from mars or earth. Each tanker would cary resources between various bases until a pipeline is built. At which time the tanker takes a new route between bases for the next mission. Hopefully the pipeline can be constructed from local resources (plastic or fiberglass?). If not, I don’t think 10 square meters of tubing will kill the mass budget. As for micro meteorites the tubing could be buried. I suppose initially it could just be laid flat across the ground and either dug in or just covered in dirt later on. Perhaps it may be desirable to put the original tube in a second tube to protect it from frost if that is something we have to worry about on mars.

C M Edwards · 2004-12-22 16:11:05

Perhaps the first tractor on Mars should have a ditch witch?

RobS · 2004-12-22 22:13:20

There are no micrometeors on the Martian surface. The atmosphere stops everything smaller than a few feet in diameter. Mars has no small craters as a result.

Robotic trucks will consume fuel moving back and forth. Pipelines are expensive to build but cheap to operate.

-- RobS

LtlPhysics · 2004-12-23 01:25:55

Minneapolis and St. Paul have a budding light rail transit system, powered by overhead electrical lines. The system, since its inception, has accommodated twice as many passengers as was predicted, but whether light rail will pay for itself remains to be seen.

Much of the route had been pioneered by ordinary mass transit busses, carrying their stinky sooty diesel fuel power supply with them.

On Mars, use rovers/vehicles that can hold or haul the fuel until there is a consensus regarding which trails are deemed permanent and should be piped and wired.

SpaceNut · 2004-12-23 06:22:34

Was just thinking of the need to transport items from one site to the next and of the pipe lines for fixed locations, These could be a dual function if laid in pairs much like railroad tracks. Power could be fed onto them and the vehicle could make contact to them and be powered by them.

Martian Republic · 2005-08-20 13:31:38

I hate to be a party pooper, but something that is only an 1/8 of a mile to 1/4 of mile or possibly 1/2 mile away, we are only talking about being four to eight city blocks away from each other. In that space we would probably use enclosed rovers for anything within a one mile to two mile of our main complex, it would be a waste of time and resources to build another complex. You have to get out almost ten to twenty mile away before you would even consider building another complex if you have a good enclosed rovers fleet specially designed for that work. For the amount of resources that you would have to have to make all those plastic pipes plus those temporary habitats which will be resource heavy to make and you would have to maintain to, you could put a ten mile rail out there and get there in ten minuets. Our scientist that exploring that section of Mars is only going to be there for few days anyway, before he move on to the new next location anyway. Unless there a place there going to be for six months to year like a mining colony or something, then anything that less than ten miles away, is pretty much a waste of time and resources to build and maintain.

I real big about build infrastructure, but there also needs to be a reason to build it too.

Larry,

John Creighton · 2005-08-20 13:53:22

I hate to be a party pooper, but something that is only an 1/8 of a mile to 1/4 of mile or possibly 1/2 mile away, we are only talking about being four to eight city blocks away from each other. In that space we would probably use enclosed rovers for anything within a one mile to two mile of our main complex, it would be a waste of time and resources to build another complex. You have to get out almost ten to twenty mile away before you would even consider building another complex if you have a good enclosed rovers fleet specially designed for that work. For the amount of resources that you would have to have to make all those plastic pipes plus those temporary habitats which will be resource heavy to make and you would have to maintain to, you could put a ten mile rail out there and get there in ten minuets. Our scientist that exploring that section of Mars is only going to be there for few days anyway, before he move on to the new next location anyway. Unless there a place there going to be for six months to year like a mining colony or something, then anything that less than ten miles away, is pretty much a waste of time and resources to build and maintain.
I real big about build infrastructure, but there also needs to be a reason to build it too.
Larry,

I wasn’t thinking of little distances. I was thinking about what it would be practical to travel by rover in a day. On earth 2 hours by car is about 240 km. So the bases should be at least 240km apart. It would be desirable to put them further apart if it was practical to travel further in one day. Now if that distance is not to far too pump CH4, (NH3 or N2) and O2. Bases could essentially provide backup life-support for each other. You could even create valves at intermediate distances that the rover could tap in to get air, fuel. Perhaps the rover could produce drinkable water from the exhaust of the engine.

This way you can explore a lot of mars while building up some base infrastructure on the surface at the same time.

Martian Republic · 2005-08-20 17:46:11

Oh, you were thinking of a hundred mile or more to the next temporary settlement. Well, even if you ran a small gas pipe line that distance as you said in your first post, that would still be a lot of line to lay down even to the first settlement from the base camp. Then you try and put together a whole network like that and whole plan will fall apart. You will have to use too much plastic pipe to make such a plan like that viable. Anything that we send out like that is almost going have to be a self contained unit that can stay out for several day to several weeks or even for several months or longer. laying that much plastic pipe down so a half dozen people can stay at one location for few weeks before they move on, is just not feasible. At least for the exploring part of this operation of Mars goes. But, once we decide where we want to put the next permanent base, then you idea would be a workable plan.

Larry,

John Creighton · 2005-08-20 18:14:13

http://www.nature.com/news/2005/050815/ … 815-8.html

The ribbons are transparent, flexible, and conduct electricity. Weight for weight, they are stronger than steel sheets, yet a square kilometre of the material would weigh only 30 kilograms. "This is basically a new material," says Baughman.

Okay, I did some MATLAB caculations:

>> 1000^2
ans =
1000000
>> ans/pi
ans =
3.1831e+005
>> ans/1000
ans =
318.3099

Thus if you made your pipe out of this carbon nanotube ribbon you could build 318 km pipeline with only 30 kgm’s of material. You could have an autonomous vehicle that digs a trench and lays the pipe like a fire hose. The portion of the pipe in the trench could be pressurized from the base as the vehicle travels. This would support the weight of the dirt that is pilled on it from a second vehicle. A third vehicle could compact the dirt so that the gas in the pipe is sealed by both the pipe walls and the sounding dirt.

Now if heat rejection is a problem in the base the pipe could first be built two ways as a cooling system. Every so often. Say every km a valve could be put in place that could server several functions including:

Turning the pipe into a loop so the air can be circulated back as a cooling system
Providing a place for rovers to get gasses for fuel
Provide an emergency shutoff point should the line ever be breached
Provide a place so that the pipe can be later branched in a different direction if needed.

Even expending the pipe out short distances so the rover can refuel further away from the base will be beneficial in terms of exploration and safety. Also the ability to dump heat into the Martian soil well greatly enhance the efficiency of the cooling and heating systems in the base.

publiusr · 2005-09-01 14:38:12

At least methane is dense in hydrogen as both a cryogenic and a hydrocarbon--the best of both worlds.

That should reduce tankage. Only naptha and hydrazene need less space IIRC.

SpaceNut · 2005-09-06 10:07:23

Well to make this successful we need to mine for these insitu materials and to be able to process them into what we need under the least amount of energy used to make the conversions happen.

Space entrepreneurs eyeing Mars as a hub of some future solar system economy launched a startup on Tuesday to mine the red planet for building materials.
The new company, 4Frontiers, plans to mine Mars for building materials and energy sources, and export the planet's mineral wealth to forthcoming space stations on the moon and elsewhere.

The Next Mother Lode: Mars

SpaceNut · 2005-09-28 13:54:15

To make use of the available water and hydrogen as well as methane we will need to use fuel cells and electrolysis.
Direct Methanol Fuel Cells (DMFCs)

LOW COST, HIGH EFFICIENCY REVERSIBLE FUEL CELL (AND ELECTROLYZER) SYSTEMS

John Creighton · 2005-09-28 14:02:45

To make use of the available water and hydrogen as well as methane we will need to use fuel cells and electrolysis.
Direct Methanol Fuel Cells (DMFCs)
LOW COST, HIGH EFFICIENCY REVERSIBLE FUEL CELL (AND ELECTROLYZER) SYSTEMS

Well, there is also the internal combustion engine but fuel cells are interesting to.

SpaceNut · 2005-09-28 14:11:05

To make use of the available water and hydrogen as well as methane we will need to use fuel cells and electrolysis.
Direct Methanol Fuel Cells (DMFCs)
LOW COST, HIGH EFFICIENCY REVERSIBLE FUEL CELL (AND ELECTROLYZER) SYSTEMS
Well, there is also the internal combustion engine but fuel cells are interesting to.

While that might work within a green house it has no chance on the moon and minimal on mars unless we have figured out how to use co2 as the oxydizer for another liquid fuel. I know of solid fuel work and research that has already been done that would work for items like a steam boiler or simular to a coal burning stove.

Dook · 2005-09-29 18:08:22

Once you consider the incredible amount of oxygen that internal combustion engines use they are not practical for use outside of the earth's atmosphere.

SpaceNut · 2005-10-07 11:24:10

Then again you have the military version of what they think fuel cells use to make this energy...
U.S. Army Exhibits Successful Fuel Cell

The fuel cell, manufactured by Plug Power, uses a proton exchange membrane to strip hydrogen from high-grade propane from the Gas Company.
The hydrogen is combined with oxygen from air to produce electricity, and heat from the reaction is recovered to make hot water. Very low emissions and water are byproducts of the process.
About the size of two refrigerators and just as quiet, the fuel cell makes enough power and hot water for a large family residence.
Up to 5 kilowatts of electricity is produced by the fuel cell and fed into the Schofield electrical distribution system.

So what's the point, other than to be green friendly...

Grypd · 2005-10-09 14:30:58

The point is that as our reliance on easy to access fuel is increasing but that our fuel of choice is causing drastic problems to us our economies and our planet and is also getting harder to access then we need an alternative.

Fuel cells need "Political" push a bbc article

SpaceNut · 2005-10-10 10:31:41

Though it is a better choice for protecting the environment. I wondered what are the effects going to be with all the water coming out of these new vehicles. This has a larger impact in the winter for icy roads.

Grypd · 2005-10-10 12:30:54

I suppose since the water will be coming out warm it should actually help to melt the ice. But then again if we dont change I suppose we will have either no ice at all or a lot more depending where you live.

louis · 2008-03-29 10:13:32

John Creighton -

It is important not to try and run before we walk.

I think the first few years should be dedicated to consolidating the base colony and developing a small but sophisticated industrial infrastructure.

Only then should major exploration expeditions be undertaken.

This is not to say that there won't be a lot of exploration going on in the vicinity of the base - maybe say 30 kms in any direction. That will provide lots that is of interest.

But the prime focus must be on creating the conditions for human settlement.

If you are really interested in exploration, then I think you should back this approach. Once we have an industrial infrastructure in place we will be able to manufacture rocket fuel at will. That will provide plenty of scope for using the lander itself as the exploratory vehicle - heading off to various points on the planet. A lot easier than duplicating everything on the lander in a large, big mass Mars Rover.

So industrial infrastructure first. Manufacture fuel, then visit wherever you want to on the planet. At each landing point, use cheap low mass transport e.g electric bikes, trikes or scooters to explore the immediate vicinity.

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#1 2004-12-20 11:51:55

Re: The Methane Based Economy - Exploring Mars in a Reusable Manner

#2 2004-12-20 15:23:16

Re: The Methane Based Economy - Exploring Mars in a Reusable Manner

#3 2004-12-20 15:35:09

Re: The Methane Based Economy - Exploring Mars in a Reusable Manner

#4 2004-12-20 21:28:43

Re: The Methane Based Economy - Exploring Mars in a Reusable Manner

#5 2004-12-22 12:09:44

Re: The Methane Based Economy - Exploring Mars in a Reusable Manner

#6 2004-12-22 13:01:10

Re: The Methane Based Economy - Exploring Mars in a Reusable Manner

#7 2004-12-22 16:11:05

Re: The Methane Based Economy - Exploring Mars in a Reusable Manner

#8 2004-12-22 22:13:20

Re: The Methane Based Economy - Exploring Mars in a Reusable Manner

#9 2004-12-23 01:25:55

Re: The Methane Based Economy - Exploring Mars in a Reusable Manner

#10 2004-12-23 06:22:34

Re: The Methane Based Economy - Exploring Mars in a Reusable Manner

#11 2005-08-20 13:31:38

Re: The Methane Based Economy - Exploring Mars in a Reusable Manner

#12 2005-08-20 13:53:22

Re: The Methane Based Economy - Exploring Mars in a Reusable Manner

#13 2005-08-20 17:46:11

Re: The Methane Based Economy - Exploring Mars in a Reusable Manner

#14 2005-08-20 18:14:13

Re: The Methane Based Economy - Exploring Mars in a Reusable Manner

#15 2005-09-01 14:38:12

Re: The Methane Based Economy - Exploring Mars in a Reusable Manner

#16 2005-09-06 10:07:23

Re: The Methane Based Economy - Exploring Mars in a Reusable Manner

#17 2005-09-28 13:54:15

Re: The Methane Based Economy - Exploring Mars in a Reusable Manner

#18 2005-09-28 14:02:45

Re: The Methane Based Economy - Exploring Mars in a Reusable Manner

#19 2005-09-28 14:11:05

Re: The Methane Based Economy - Exploring Mars in a Reusable Manner

#20 2005-09-29 18:08:22

Re: The Methane Based Economy - Exploring Mars in a Reusable Manner

#21 2005-10-07 11:24:10

Re: The Methane Based Economy - Exploring Mars in a Reusable Manner

#22 2005-10-09 14:30:58

Re: The Methane Based Economy - Exploring Mars in a Reusable Manner

#23 2005-10-10 10:31:41

Re: The Methane Based Economy - Exploring Mars in a Reusable Manner

#24 2005-10-10 12:30:54

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