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#1 2004-06-29 22:58:36

Rxke
Member
From: Belgium
Registered: 2003-11-03
Posts: 3,658

Re: Plans for mobile base - on the moon...

[color=#000000:post_uid0]NASA


Can you say: "immense cost-overruns."

Ok, looks cool and all that, ut what about shielding, complexity, costs...

I really hope they don't go this way, at least not in the initial phase, it is far too difficult.[/color:post_uid0]


ExoMars' launcher's 2nd stage is probably en route to Mars. Unsterilised... yikes

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#2 2004-06-29 23:09:23

DERF
Member
From: Kingston, Ontario
Registered: 2004-05-25
Posts: 39

Re: Plans for mobile base - on the moon...

[color=#000000:post_uid0]There are so many ideas. I don't care - please just somebody do something!!!!!! I am particularily afraid when "authorities" such as NASA come down with random other ideas that seem to be off the main track, or haven't been thought of yet. I mean yes, the walking roves are intensely cool but could we not just get there or somewhere PLEASE? I demand infrastructure!!!!

Hmm off-topic ranting.[/color:post_uid0]

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#3 2004-06-29 23:26:41

Rxke
Member
From: Belgium
Registered: 2003-11-03
Posts: 3,658

Re: Plans for mobile base - on the moon...

[color=#000000:post_uid0]BTW, here are some snazzy pictures...

NASA Ames

Looks cool, eh? Now try to imagine how you're going to launch/ assemble this on the moon...

Such a sttructure in that environment... It'll cost heaps of billions to get it functioning properly.

NASA's delusions of grandeur are just making me sick, sometimes. This way we'll never get anywhere.[/color:post_uid0]


ExoMars' launcher's 2nd stage is probably en route to Mars. Unsterilised... yikes

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#4 2004-06-29 23:39:20

Rxke
Member
From: Belgium
Registered: 2003-11-03
Posts: 3,658

Re: Plans for mobile base - on the moon...

[color=#000000:post_uid0]DERF, I'm with you...

Honestly, even on Earth, such a structure would be quite hard to build, even w/o the need of pressurized cabins etc.

Looking at the pics, it seems like another bunch of $$$$ already spent 'researching' this monstruosity, or maybe it was done in someone's spare time? I doubt it...

NASA is too 'fat.' Money gets wasted on making pretty computerpics that take hours to draw, design etc. It all adds up to a huge amount of wasted man-hours, thus money.

Don't get me wrong: I'm ok with designing new stuff, but be at least a *bit* realistic, please?

How many 'thinktanks' do they have there, all making grandiose plans of the next battlestar galactica, while moaning they don't get enoughh money?


pretty pics, pretty pics pretty pics, is all we get, lately...


:bars2:  :bars2:  :bars2:[/color:post_uid0]


ExoMars' launcher's 2nd stage is probably en route to Mars. Unsterilised... yikes

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#5 2004-06-30 03:01:05

Grypd
Member
From: Scotland, Europe
Registered: 2004-06-07
Posts: 1,847

Re: Plans for mobile base - on the moon...

[color=#000000:post_uid0]NASA's plans for mobile bases seem to be a bit flawed.

1) To build something that size will reguire, either orbital assembly as it will be far too big for any existing launcher or recent proposed launcher or being made at an already constructed lunar base. It will be as complicated as the ISS to assemble and probably as expensive requiring a lot of manned space walks.

2) It is a very limited idea of the exploration of the moon it can only survey, It cant actually use any resource it finds. There will be no use of insitu lunar materials at this base.

3) Safety of crews. Frankly unless it is very heavy it will have about as much radiation shielding as the ISS. The ISS is great it has the protection of the Earth. But on the moon the radiation count increases never mind a solar flare. One advantage of a permanent base is that it can put a lot of shielding to the human compartments so almost eliminating this risk.

4) Finally, This base lends itself to the credence of being a flags and footprints mission. It is never designed to go and permanently stay on the moon. It is a superb example of a really expensive white elephant.[/color:post_uid0]


Chan eil mi aig a bheil ùidh ann an gleidheadh an status quo; Tha mi airson cur às e.

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#6 2004-06-30 20:59:31

MarsDog
Member
From: vancouver canada
Registered: 2004-03-24
Posts: 852

Re: Plans for mobile base - on the moon...

[color=#000000:post_uid0]Looks impressive.
Moon shakedown, for safety, before Mars.
And add a few missiles for military capabilities.[/color:post_uid0]

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#7 2004-07-01 15:15:38

cDelta
Member
From: New Jersey
Registered: 2004-07-01
Posts: 46

Re: Plans for mobile base - on the moon...

[color=#000000:post_uid0]I think that NASA should start working on designs for [i:post_uid0]permanent[/i:post_uid0] bases, rather than these mobile technical monstrosities.[/color:post_uid0]

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#8 2004-07-01 16:55:41

MarsDog
Member
From: vancouver canada
Registered: 2004-03-24
Posts: 852

Re: Plans for mobile base - on the moon...

[color=#000000:post_uid0]No use making permanent base until Lunar materials are used.
Might as well look around for a really good crater or lava tube to settle in.
An 8 wheel mobile home on wheels, can't do better than that.[/color:post_uid0]

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#9 2004-07-01 23:49:55

Rxke
Member
From: Belgium
Registered: 2003-11-03
Posts: 3,658

Re: Plans for mobile base - on the moon...

[color=#000000:post_uid0]You can't be serious!
Did you look at those plans? They're impossible with today's tech, at least not without truckloads of billions... They'd have to assemble it on orbit, for starters. ISS Mark II...

If you absolutely want to go mobile big time, you could do it with a medium-sized pressurized rover, refilled with a 'hopper,' that jumps around with spare fuel, or fuel drops from orbit. Crazily expensive, still a lot less than *that* monstruosity.

I'd give it 20 meter before it breaks down. Mujo too complex.

Scouting should be done with unmanned rovers, the distance makes t easy to tele-operate. Much cheaper, no risk for losing crewmembers, etc...[/color:post_uid0]


ExoMars' launcher's 2nd stage is probably en route to Mars. Unsterilised... yikes

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#10 2004-07-02 08:19:14

MarsDog
Member
From: vancouver canada
Registered: 2004-03-24
Posts: 852

Re: Plans for mobile base - on the moon...

[color=#000000:post_uid0]Robots are cost efficient, and a lot more could be done.
A very high resolution 3D map would allow us to be armchair explorers; Something similar to virtual reality model of Baghdad.
-
But the goal is Man on the Moon by 2020.
For human needs; something safe, comfortable, flexible, a home away from home needs to be established. What could be more comfortable than a Hobot ?[/color:post_uid0]

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#11 2004-07-02 08:39:51

cDelta
Member
From: New Jersey
Registered: 2004-07-01
Posts: 46

Re: Plans for mobile base - on the moon...

[color=#000000:post_uid0]It may be comfortable, but comfort is not the only issue here. As previous posters have said, this thing would be incredibly complex to build. It looks like the legs are hydraulic. If it were on wheels, maybe, given enough time and money (neither of which are in abundance), but it has six legs! Imagine the "walking" pattern this thing would go through. It would take a lot of energy to power this and it probably wouldn't be very fast either.

Somehow I doubt this is actually under serious consideration. More than likely, a NASA employee stumbled upon some old 'wish list' plans and decided to post them for kicks. No engineer would seriously consider this at the present time.[/color:post_uid0]

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#12 2004-07-02 12:00:38

MarsDog
Member
From: vancouver canada
Registered: 2004-03-24
Posts: 852

Re: Plans for mobile base - on the moon...

[color=#000000:post_uid0]Hobotat

It is claimed, "it doesn't take a lot more investment to make it highly mobile"
-
In any event, there will be need for transport from the Moon spaceport to a fixed settlement. A construction site starts with vehicles.[/color:post_uid0]

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#13 2004-07-02 13:26:51

cDelta
Member
From: New Jersey
Registered: 2004-07-01
Posts: 46

Re: Plans for mobile base - on the moon...

[color=#000000:post_uid0]Let's just launch up some pressurized Humvees  big_smile[/color:post_uid0]

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#14 2004-07-02 16:28:45

Grypd
Member
From: Scotland, Europe
Registered: 2004-06-07
Posts: 1,847

Re: Plans for mobile base - on the moon...

[color=#000000:post_uid0]I Had a good look at that Hobot, It is a technical nightmare. The picture of the one with legs. Well the moon wont be forgiving imagine that lunar regolith dust and constant heat and quick cooling. I can be assured you will not go far in that thing.

The other Mobitat the one with wheels looking like some science fictions writers mobile home. That will not be used i think until there is a full time base already built. It will be made by that base or not at all, It cant be supported any other way.[/color:post_uid0]


Chan eil mi aig a bheil ùidh ann an gleidheadh an status quo; Tha mi airson cur às e.

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#15 2004-07-02 16:58:35

cDelta
Member
From: New Jersey
Registered: 2004-07-01
Posts: 46

Re: Plans for mobile base - on the moon...

[color=#000000:post_uid0]I knew I had seen the legged-rover concept before! It is depicted by Pat Rawlings in Ben Bova's [b:post_uid0]Welcome to Moonbase[/b:post_uid0]. Here are some images:

Legged Rover

And here are some alternate designs.

Six-Wheeled Rover

Three-Wheeled Rover

This next one I particularly like.
Treaded Rover[/color:post_uid0]

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#16 2004-07-02 20:36:44

MarsDog
Member
From: vancouver canada
Registered: 2004-03-24
Posts: 852

Re: Plans for mobile base - on the moon...

[color=#000000:post_uid0]I would like to see a space version of the single wheel vehicle; a person and motor inside a large wheel.  For more stability, a 2 wheeler, not as a motorcycle, but the wheels on the same axis and the habitat in between.[/color:post_uid0]

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#17 2004-07-03 13:05:48

Grypd
Member
From: Scotland, Europe
Registered: 2004-06-07
Posts: 1,847

Re: Plans for mobile base - on the moon...

[color=#000000:post_uid0]That legged habitat was using Pneumatics to provide power to its legs. Nice looking vehicle just not very practical, The Pneumatics under the change of tempature from the sun to the side that is shaded will give very different speed and action. This will lead to the vehicle being lamed and unsafe. I have been experimenting on trying to createa robotic ant. To try to counteract this I use memory metal type strands to provide muscle.

This is still possible to be affected by the lunar enviroment but is less affected by lunar dust. It is easier though to seal away these delicate devices and this gives a chance for some use on the moon and mars

But i really think that simplicity should be our word for using vehicles on the moon and mars. We will need to repair them when they break down, and they will. If it is reasonably simple to repair them it will make the work of the initial base and colony builders a lot easier. Not to mention with all the different terrains it will hint towards all terrain types tracks or wheels. And my thinking is that wheels with there less moving parts are easier to operate.[/color:post_uid0]


Chan eil mi aig a bheil ùidh ann an gleidheadh an status quo; Tha mi airson cur às e.

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#18 2004-07-03 15:02:23

MarsDog
Member
From: vancouver canada
Registered: 2004-03-24
Posts: 852

Re: Plans for mobile base - on the moon...

[color=#000000:post_uid0]Motor Wheel - All in One

I agree - simpler the better;
Standardize to something easy to replace.[/color:post_uid0]

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#19 2004-07-04 08:01:37

RobS
Member
From: South Bend, IN
Registered: 2002-01-15
Posts: 1,701
Website

Re: Plans for mobile base - on the moon...

[color=#000000:post_uid0]Why would you want a one-wheeled vehicle? If you have a six or eight wheeled vehicle, you have plenty of innate stability and if one wheel malfunctions you just shut of fthe power to it and roll along on the others. If you have a one-wheeled vehicle, if something goes wrong you fall over, and if you can't fix that one wheel you're in real trouble.

        - RobS[/color:post_uid0]

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#20 2004-07-04 13:38:11

Grypd
Member
From: Scotland, Europe
Registered: 2004-06-07
Posts: 1,847

Re: Plans for mobile base - on the moon...

[color=#000000:post_uid0]If you do want to go for legs use the millipede effect, Lots of legs. This can go for wheeled vehicles too.

Actually the three wheeled vehicle/bike is a good idea too. It will give those Moon Miners a real kick out of driving. Biker gangs on the moon anyone.[/color:post_uid0]


Chan eil mi aig a bheil ùidh ann an gleidheadh an status quo; Tha mi airson cur às e.

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#21 2004-07-06 00:32:30

RobS
Member
From: South Bend, IN
Registered: 2002-01-15
Posts: 1,701
Website

Re: Plans for mobile base - on the moon...

[color=#000000:post_uid0]I wanted to add this comment to the "simple Mars vehicle" thread, but it seemed to be borked, so I'll add it here. For those interested in designing Mars vehicles, it might be helpful to look at the designs of campers and recreational vehicles. This idea was inspired by the arrival of my best friend's uncle over the July 4 weekend in his "Chateau Sport" recreational vehicle. He gave me a tour and I was immensely impressed.

Campers usually fit on the back of pickup trucks and consist of an over-the-cab loft bedroom and a room that fits on the truck back that is usually 8 to 10 feet long (2.4-2.7 m) and about 7 (2 m) feet wide. A good example, including interior photos and blueprints, can be found at

http://www.lancecamper.com/sec3/lance/lance.htm

Class C recreational vehicles are usually 18 to 28 (5.3-8.3 m) feet long and 8 feet (2.4 m) wide. Class A are up to 36 feet (11 m) long and also are about 8 ft/2.4 m wide. There are photos and blueprints of examples at

http://www.fourwinds-rv.com/chateau_sport.html

This takes you to the Chateau Sport, which is class C, but there are links to the other products of Four Winds and some are Class A. An interesting variant is

http://www.fourwinds-rv.com/funmover.ht … r+Winds&b=

The "Funmover" is a Class A vehicle that consists of a small Class C vehicle with a garage on the back, into which one can put motorcycles, all-terrain bikes, snowmobiles, etc. One could imagine a variant of this version replacing the garage with a science or repair facility.

Note that one can't simply move these vehicles to Mars. Besides the problem of making them airtight and warm, one would have to add oxygen and methane tanks, an airlock or two, and important amenities like a clothes washer/drier (on Earth, it is assumed you'll go to an laundromat!). The dry weight of the vehicles might not change too much, though, because something sent to Mars will be made out of high-strength plastics or weldalite instead of steel and aluminum.

At least they give one a sense of the options. We will need different sorts of vehicles on Mars. It is interesting that there are defined classes of vehicles already on Earth (or at least in the United States). Those interested in the idea of a mobile base might want to consider something in the recreational vehicle class; if one added a second story to one (hard on Earth, with highway bridges to clear, but easier on Mars and the moon) one would have a substantial amount of interior space, about 50 square meters, which is the amount in the Mars Direct's Earth Return Vehicle or in the top floor of the Hab. That is getting pretty close to the amount of space you need for a mobile base.

         -- RobS[/color:post_uid0]

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#22 2004-07-06 00:57:18

Rxke
Member
From: Belgium
Registered: 2003-11-03
Posts: 3,658

Re: Plans for mobile base - on the moon...

[color=#000000:post_uid0]I still think the idea is not practical, a lot of science equipment works better, or more convieniently in a 'set' place.
Still, medium-to large sized rovers are neccessary to do some extended missions, so those camper-sized things might be an option. But not for months in a row.
A mobile base, that you'd have to use for about a year, would be very complex, big, heavy, and still error-prone. Better would be 'scout-jeep' like things for shorter travels, and a medium-sized, pressurized rover for the longer "out of the outpost" missions. The 'jeeps' could be 'foldable' like the moon-buggies, and be used to find the best route for the bigger and more inflexible pressurized rover.

What about a chassis with a transHab-like inflatable structure put on top? Should be more practical to send up.

(That whole transhab thing has not flown yet, but the possibilities look so promising...)[/color:post_uid0]


ExoMars' launcher's 2nd stage is probably en route to Mars. Unsterilised... yikes

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#23 2004-07-06 06:14:41

cDelta
Member
From: New Jersey
Registered: 2004-07-01
Posts: 46

Re: Plans for mobile base - on the moon...

[color=#000000:post_uid0]Speaking of Transhab/Nautilus, here's a recent article from Aviation Week & Space Technology about foreign interest in Bigelow.

Private Initiative for Inflatable Space Habitat Lures Chinese Interest[/color:post_uid0]

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#24 2004-07-06 15:51:14

BWhite
Member
From: Chicago, Illinois
Registered: 2004-06-16
Posts: 2,635

Re: Plans for mobile base - on the moon...

[color=#000000:post_uid0]I recall from the fictional [u:post_uid0]The Rocket Company[/u:post_uid0] an assertion that Mobil One synthetic oil would allow an internal combustion engine to work just fine in vacuum.

Obviously you need an oxygen source.

If this is true, what about a Hummer or a Suburban modified to run on methane and oxygen? Here in Illinois, many contractors buy used Chevy Suburbans from the natural gas company which routinely run on methane.

Given the cost of shipment, fabricate the body from carbon fiber and high tech plastic and remove weight as much as possible.

= = =

What are the odds Chevy or Hummer would throw in a few hundred million dollars as promotional consideration?

= = =

Oh yeah, a mobile base. What about a towed camper? :;):

= = =

Follow up. Start with this.

Charge Dodge a billion dollars (or two) for promotional consideration. A five year ad campaign? Peanuts. And the fee can cover the Proton launch needed to get this thing there.

Add methane/oxygen tanks. (We have Sabatiers on Mars, right?) Replace steel with high tech alloy in the frame/chassis and re-design the body from chassis up. Keep the hood ornament.

Have Mobil pay you $200 million AND buy the launch needed to send 1000 quarts of oil to Mars AND they donate a special blend of Mobil One intended for use in vacuum.

= = =

Anyone have access to a vacuum chamber and a used lawnmower engine and some Mobil One oil?

Want to assist my daughter in her science fair next year?[/color:post_uid0]


Give someone a sufficient why and they can endure just about any how

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#25 2004-07-07 12:04:25

clark
Member
Registered: 2001-09-20
Posts: 6,252

Re: Plans for mobile base - on the moon...

[color=#000000:post_uid0]Bill, you need a cane and a striped hat. "Come one, come all, step right up! Don't be shy."  :laugh:[/color:post_uid0]

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