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#1 2003-07-25 18:04:59

space_psibrain
Member
Registered: 2002-02-15
Posts: 83

Re: Lifter Technology

Lifters using Ion Wind

This is a new way to get around mars, without having to worry about many moving parts or such...given that a mars plane would be unwieldy...this might be a better alternative

Visited by moderator 2022/01/28

"What you don't realize about peace, is that is cannot be achieved by yielding to an enemy. Rather, peace is something that must be fought for, and if it is necessary for a war to be fought to preserve the peace, then I would more than willingly give my life for the cause of peace."

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#2 2003-07-27 05:30:15

sethmckiness
Banned
From: Iowa
Registered: 2002-09-20
Posts: 230

Re: Lifter Technology

It seems interesting.. But I am somewhat skeptical due to the vagueness and attitude of the site.  Am I the only one that feels this way?

We are only limited by our Will and our Imagination.

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#3 2003-07-27 21:21:08

Josh Cryer
Moderator
Registered: 2001-09-29
Posts: 3,830

Re: Lifter Technology

NASA pretty much debunked the lifter myth. The main problem with them is that they require ungodly ammounts of electricity to do anything remotely useful.

Some useful links while MER are active. [url=http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/home/index.html]Offical site[/url] [url=http://www.nasa.gov/multimedia/nasatv/MM_NTV_Web.html]NASA TV[/url] [url=http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/mer2004/]JPL MER2004[/url] [url=http://www.spaceflightnow.com/mars/mera/statustextonly.html]Text feed[/url]
--------
The amount of solar radiation reaching the surface of the earth totals some 3.9 million exajoules a year.

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#4 2003-07-28 01:31:42

space_psibrain
Member
Registered: 2002-02-15
Posts: 83

Re: Lifter Technology

perhaps within a span of 50 years or so...i mean the technology was patented in the 1950s, so perhaps by then...

"What you don't realize about peace, is that is cannot be achieved by yielding to an enemy. Rather, peace is something that must be fought for, and if it is necessary for a war to be fought to preserve the peace, then I would more than willingly give my life for the cause of peace."

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#5 2003-07-30 06:40:45

Shaun Barrett
Member
From: Cairns, Queensland, Australia
Registered: 2001-12-28
Posts: 2,843

Re: Lifter Technology

I've never really looked into these 'lifters', as they call them, and I don't want to sift through miles of text checking them out.
    Can anyone give me the low-down on these things in a nutshell?

    For instance, the ones they fly in labs: They are connected to a power supply with a wire, right? Even so, what is the physics behind their levitation?

    Thanks ahead!    smile

The word 'aerobics' came about when the gym instructors got together and said: If we're going to charge $10 an hour, we can't call it Jumping Up and Down.   - Rita Rudner

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#6 2003-08-12 03:26:35

Adrian
Moderator
From: London, United Kingdom
Registered: 2001-09-04
Posts: 642
Website

Re: Lifter Technology

Here's an article on Wired that debunks lifter technology, at least in the 'antigravity' sense.

Editor of [url=http://www.newmars.com]New Mars[/url]

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#7 2003-08-15 18:55:27

space_psibrain
Member
Registered: 2002-02-15
Posts: 83

Re: Lifter Technology

yes, yes, I already knew about the ion wind phenomena...and if i'm not mistaken, the article also mentions it possibly being useful for

Martian gliders

"What you don't realize about peace, is that is cannot be achieved by yielding to an enemy. Rather, peace is something that must be fought for, and if it is necessary for a war to be fought to preserve the peace, then I would more than willingly give my life for the cause of peace."

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#8 2003-08-18 20:37:32

Shaun Barrett
Member
From: Cairns, Queensland, Australia
Registered: 2001-12-28
Posts: 2,843

Re: Lifter Technology

Thanks, Adrian, for the interesting link about lifters. Looks like they're just a form of electrical helicopter!   smile

    Dicktice, I did see the New Scientist article you mention. It was some time ago now so I don't remember all the details.
    I forget the name of the scientist who maintains a mirror light sail won't move, but common sense seems to tell me he's wrong. A mirror sail should be the most effective form of light sail, since it maximises the proportion of photons doing a complete 'about face' and minimises the number being absorbed. To my way of thinking, a reflected photon whose momentum is flipped from +1 to -1 is contributing twice as much momentum to the sail as a photon which is absorbed and has its momentum changed from +1 to zero. It's just arithmetic!

    As for the doppler effect, at the kind of velocities we're talking about within our solar system, any such effect will be vanishingly small.
    However, if our light sail is getting faster as it moves away from the light source, the apparent wavelength of photons falling on its surface must be getting longer. If the wavelength is increasing, the frequency must, by definition, be decreasing. Since the energy of a photon is proportional to its frequency, the faster the light sail goes, the less energy each photon impact imparts to the sail.
    As a result, the rate of acceleration of the sail should decrease as the sail moves ever faster, not increase.

    This Doppler effect, though, as I've mentioned, will be unimportant unless we're talking about speeds which are a significant fraction of light speed. Within our solar system, it seems to me that a light sail, with its vast area and relatively low mass, will start to experience noticeable 'atmospheric drag' due to interplanetary gas density long before the Doppler effect becomes a problem.
    But it is an interesting theoretical problem just the same. And with the imminent launch of The Planetary Society's Cosmos 1 solar sail, we may soon have actual data to work with and be in a position to dispense with the hypothesising and start dealing with facts!
                                           smile

The word 'aerobics' came about when the gym instructors got together and said: If we're going to charge $10 an hour, we can't call it Jumping Up and Down.   - Rita Rudner

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#9 2003-08-21 21:43:10

space_psibrain
Member
Registered: 2002-02-15
Posts: 83

Re: Lifter Technology

the launch of Cosmos 1 should indeed be interesting...

"What you don't realize about peace, is that is cannot be achieved by yielding to an enemy. Rather, peace is something that must be fought for, and if it is necessary for a war to be fought to preserve the peace, then I would more than willingly give my life for the cause of peace."

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#10 2003-08-23 07:51:32

Shaun Barrett
Member
From: Cairns, Queensland, Australia
Registered: 2001-12-28
Posts: 2,843

Re: Lifter Technology

Hi Dicktice!
    I went off looking for the equation for the momentum of a photon, so as to place my previous answer about solar sails on a firmer mathematical footing.
    But now I notice your original question has disappeared.

    I assume you've lost interest in solar sailing or have decided to wait and see how well (or otherwise! ) Cosmos 1 performs!
                                            smile

The word 'aerobics' came about when the gym instructors got together and said: If we're going to charge $10 an hour, we can't call it Jumping Up and Down.   - Rita Rudner

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