Two Unrelated Questions

Palomar · 2003-08-19 10:46:48

*What exactly is the alkaline in alkaline batteries? Can it be easily made? Does alkaline "run out"? Is it permanent? Can you tell I know -nothing- about alkaline?!

*Approximately how long would it take a man -- say 6 feet tall -- to walk 4 kilometers?

Any answers would be appreciated.

--Cindy

Shaun Barrett · 2003-08-20 01:23:00

The 6' man should take about 35 to 40 minutes to walk 4 kilometres.
It depends, of course, on the definition of 'walk'. My mother-in-law's idea of walking would result in 4 kilometres taking about an hour and a half - assuming she made it to the 4 km mark at all !!
Then again, I've seen power-walkers who could probably do 4 kilometres in not much more than 20 minutes.

The term 'alkaline' is really just the opposite of 'acidic'. In chemical terms, an acid is a proton donor while an alkali (or 'base') is a proton acceptor.
For example, nitric acid's formula is HNO3. When you mix it with water, it goes into solution to form the ions H+ and NO3-. The H+ is simply a hydrogen ion, a hydrogen atom deprived of its electron and hence positively charged. It's the simplest ion there is because it's just a proton!
Because HNO3 provides a proton, it is a proton donor or an acid.

A common alkali is sodium hydroxide or NaOH. When you mix it with water, it too goes into solution, this time forming the ions Na+ and OH-. The OH- ion is called a hydroxide ion and, as you can see, it is negatively charged. It's negatively charged because it carries an extra electron. This negativity causes it to attract the H+ ion (or proton), making it a proton acceptor or an alkali (also called a 'base').

If you mix acids and alkalis, one neutralises the other. Using the above examples, the H+ (proton) combines strongly with the OH- (hydroxide ion) to form H2O (water, of course). Hence, no more acidity and no more alkalinity - they're both neutralised!
The remainder of the chemicals also combine to form what is known as a 'salt', in this case sodium nitrate or NaNO3.
Common table salt is also a 'salt' (of course! ) because it too results from the neutralising of an acid and an alkali (base). Hydrochloric acid and sodium hydroxide give rise to table salt (sodium chloride) if you mix them.

Now, as for the description of 'alkaline' applied to long-life batteries, I don't know what type of chemical reaction is being used here. I suppose I could look it up but maybe it's enough for you to realise that the term simply means that some kind of alkali, or proton acceptor, is involved in the generation of electricity(?).
It's enough to keep me happy anyhow!!

[P.S. No doubt Robert Dyck could enlighten us as to the alkaline battery's inner workings right off the top of his head. That man's a mine of technical info. ]

Palomar · 2003-08-20 11:53:11

The 6' man should take about 35 to 40 minutes to walk 4 kilometres...
The term 'alkaline' is really just the opposite of 'acidic'. In chemical terms, an acid is a proton donor while an alkali (or 'base') is a proton acceptor.
For example, nitric acid's formula is HNO3. When you mix it with water, it goes into solution to form the ions H+ and NO3-. The H+ is simply a hydrogen ion, a hydrogen atom deprived of its electron and hence positively charged. It's the simplest ion there is because it's just a proton!
Because HNO3 provides a proton, it is a proton donor or an acid.
A common alkali is sodium hydroxide or NaOH. When you mix it with water, it too goes into solution, this time forming the ions Na+ and OH-. The OH- ion is called a hydroxide ion and, as you can see, it is negatively charged. It's negatively charged because it carries an extra electron. This negativity causes it to attract the H+ ion (or proton), making it a proton acceptor or an alkali (also called a 'base')...SNIP...
[P.S. No doubt Robert Dyck could enlighten us as to the alkaline battery's inner workings right off the top of his head. That man's a mine of technical info. ]

*Thanks for answering my questions, Shaun. I understood the first paragraph perfectly (relative to walking kilometers)...

"OH" to me is the abbreviation for "Ohio." You must have taken chemistry in college or something...unlike me.

Time to go pull my hair out! Egad.

Well, at least I understand philosophy...

--Cindy

RobertDyck · 2003-08-20 14:24:10

Ok, I've been named. I don' know the chemistry of an alkaline battery off the top of my head, but you can find out here. According to that link you have zinc on one side, magnesium dioxide on the other, and in between you have water with some stuff dissolved in it to make it alkaline. As the battery operates it converts zinc into zinc oxide; so the zinc is used up. An alkaline battery is not rechargeable because the zinc oxide will not get back to being zinc just by running electricity backwards through the battery. So yes, the alkaline and zinc get used up.

Shaun gave a good description of what an alkaline is, but Cindy is pulling out her hair. Let's see, basic chemistry. Each atom has a bunch of positive charged protons in the nucleus and non-charged neutrons. The neutrons keep the protons from pushing each other away, so they hold the nucleus together. Electrons orbit the atom. Because each electron has a negative charge, normally there is one electron for each proton. The electrons orbit the nucleus, but their charge causes them to push away from each other. This results in only certain orbits being stable. The electron orbits form concentric shells, like layers of an onion. Each shell can only hold so many electrons. The close-in shells fill up first. Furthermore, the orbits have different shapes. Because electrons do not behave exactly the same as planets around a sun, scientists like to have another name to describe electron orbits so they call them orbitals. Within a shell there are orbitals of different shapes. There is a spherical orbital calls S, and 3 pear-shaped orbitals called P. The 3 pear shaped orbitals are oriented forward-back, left-right, and up-down. Since the atom can twist and turn all over the place, which orbital is which way can change so scientists like to use the letters X, Y, and Z. That means the 3 pear-shaped orbitals are Px, Py, and Pz. Each orbital shape can only hold 2 electrons, one spinning one way, the other spinning the other way. They used to believe spin was either clockwise or counter-clockwise, but quantum effects make it more complicated. To make it easy to understand just think of the electrons spinning like a top. All this is important because atoms are most happy when all orbital shapes are full. To fill them all up they need 8 electrons in the outer most shell. But atoms normally have only the same number of electrons as protons, so they may not have enough electrons to full up the outer shell. To solve that atoms can either share or borrow.

If one atom with 5 electrons in the outer shell bumps into an atom with 3 electrons in the outer shell, they share all their outer electrons. This gives both atoms exactly 8 electrons so they are both happy . The fancy word for the outer most shell is the valent shell, so this way of getting two atoms to stick together is called a co-valent bond.

If one atom with 7 electrons in the outer shell bumps into an atom with only 1 in the outer shell, the atom with 7 will borrow an electron. This fills up the first atom's out shell, and completely empties the other atom's outer shell. The second atom is happy because the next shell in is full, so that means the shell that is now outer most is also full. However, this means the first atom has one electron more than the number or protons, so it makes the atom negatively charged. The second atom has one fewer electron than its number of protons, so it has a positive charge. The two atoms are then stuck to each other by static electricity. If many atoms with the same charges are dancing around together, the atoms can swap partners. (Swing your partner round and round, doe-see-doe, ...) An atom that has too many or too few electrons is called an ion, so this means to get atoms to stick together is called an ionic bond.

Hydrogen is a very small atom. Its outer most shell is too small for any pear-shaped P orbitals. Its outer shell is full when it has 2 electrons to fill its spherical S orbital. Hydrogen can either lend or borrow an electron and is equally happy, but most of its partners want to take much more strongly than hydrogen, so it usually ends up positive. Oxygen has 6 electrons in its outer shell so it wants to share or borrow 2. It can share one electron with each of 2 hydrogen atoms, which forms H2O (water). Or oxygen can share an electron with one hydrogen atom and borrow from another. If it does that the pair of one oxygen and one hydrogen (O and H) will have a negative charge (OH-). The remaining hydrogen atom that lent its electron will be positive (H+). Water can easily bounce back and forth between normal H2O and pairs of OH- and H+.

Salt also breaks up into positive and negative ions. If a positive ion from water bumps into a negative ion from salt, then static electricity will hold them together. At least until they bump into another ion. The reverse is also true. (Swing your partner round and round?) This helps salt dissolve in water. If a pair is more strongly attracted than their previous partners, they tend to stay together. (Atoms are so fickle!) This is how chemical reactions work.

Shaun Barrett · 2003-08-20 20:07:13

A very readable precis of current thought on electron arrangements in atoms and ions, Robert.

I started out by including something of that in my attempt to clarify the term 'alkaline' for Cindy. In the end, I deleted it and stuck to what I hoped would be more digestible. Judging by Cindy's response, I didn't succeed!

One of us needs to take Cindy aside, over a cup of coffee, with pencil and paper, and go through the basics of how chemicals do their thing. I get the feeling Cindy's teachers may have failed her when it comes to mathematics and science, which is a pity because, as we all know, she is more than capable of assimilating this kind of information if it is presented properly.
It's just too hard to explain things via the internet. Face to face would be so much better and I'm perfectly certain Cindy would have no trouble at all grasping these concepts if given half a chance.

Maybe one happy day, we'll all meet up at a Mars Society conference and get that opportunity!
I'll even buy the coffee!

Palomar · 2003-08-21 05:35:04

Shaun: "One of us needs to take Cindy aside, over a cup of coffee, with pencil and paper, and go through the basics of how chemicals do their thing. I get the feeling Cindy's teachers may have failed her when it comes to mathematics and science,"

*Well, I did encounter quite a few elementary and junior high school math teachers who, when I would ask a question after the lesson, would reply "What did I just tell you?" They did this to other students as well, of course. If I knew what they'd just told us, I wouldn't ask! They would breeze through the lesson, and (it seems) just because Jim Sweers (the brainest guy in the class) could answer any question posed to the class in a few seconds, -lesson over-! It was discouraging to say the least.

Shaun: "which is a pity because, as we all know, she is more than capable of assimilating this kind of information if it is presented properly."

*Aw. You're sweet to say that. I hope it's true.

Shaun: "It's just too hard to explain things via the internet. Face to face would be so much better and I'm perfectly certain Cindy would have no trouble at all grasping these concepts if given half a chance.

Maybe one happy day, we'll all meet up at a Mars Society conference and get that opportunity!
I'll even buy the coffee!"

*Okay, and I'll buy the doughnuts!

Robert, thanks for your post; I'll re-read it throughout the day. I'll try to muster up some responses...

--Cindy

RobertDyck · 2003-08-21 15:01:50

Fascinating ??? I took a look at the anatomy of a copper-top battery to see how to make one on Mars. The casing is a nickel-plated steel can that has a plastic sleeve which contains decorative printing identifying the cell type and size. Inside that is the cathode, which is a cylinder of magnesium oxide and graphite. Inside that is a separator; porous non-woven fibrous material which separates electrodes. That sounds like some sort of felt. Inside that is the anode; a solid rod of powdered zinc metal. Stuck into the rod is the anode collector, a nail made of tin-plated brass. The end has seal/vent, a molded plastic disc which holds internal components inside the cell and releases internal pressure when battery is abused. If you look at the picture carefully you will see an orange line along the bottom; that is an insulator that separates the steel can which has positive charge from the steel plate on the very bottom that has negative charge. The tin-plated brass nail passes right through the insulator, steel can, and plastic seal/vent. I wonder how they keep the tin-plated nail from shorting to the nickel-plated steel can? Some of the insulator might wrap around the edge of the can when they drive in the nail. Or the can might not wrap all the way around; it might be crimped onto the plastic disc with a gap in the center where the anode collector nail is driven through. The can itself is filled with electrolyte solution, just water with potassium hydroxide.

So what materials are here, and how do we find them on Mars? The steel is iron and carbon; iron is the red stuff in Mars soil and Mars air is 95.32% carbon dioxide. Actually, the CO2 is the only known source of carbon on Mars. 20-24% of Mars soil is iron oxide, but that is bound in minerals like feldspar. There wasn't any nickel discovered in soil samples by Sojourner, but there are probably nickel deposits somewhere on Mars. Sojourner did detect 7.3-9.7% magnesium oxide in the soil. Magnesium may be a more expensive metal on Earth than nickel, but if nickel is hard to find on Mars we could use magnesium instead. We could even use aluminum; the only purpose of the plating on the can is to prevent it from rusting.

The next layer in the battery is magnesium oxide and graphite; there is lots of magnesium oxide in Mars soil. Again, we can get carbon from the air. Vapor deposition will turn carbon into graphite, you just need high temperature and an absense of oxygen.

The anode is zinc. Hmm, no zinc found by Sojourner. We'll have to do some prospecting.

The anode collector is tin plated brass. Tin is an element not found by Sojourner, and brass is an alloy of copper and zinc. Hmm. Sojourner didn't find copper either.

The plastic disk; Robert Zubrin's book "The Case for Mars" described how to make plastic. You can learn more about making plastic on Mars here.

The very end: I'm not sure if the insulator is plastic or paper, but we could use plastic. The negative terminal on the bottom is the same material as the can: plated steel. Is it soldered or spot welded onto the anode collector? We could spot weld to prevent the requirement for more material.

Mars soil is 0.5-0.7% potassium oxide, so potassium is available. Hydroxide is just (OH-) so that you can get from water.

So what is the felt? Or is it paper? We could use a felt of plastic fibers since we wouldn't have wood for paper.

Bottom line: I would take some prospecting, but we could make batteries on Mars. For the initial mission we would want to bring rechargeable batteries, probably lithium-ion batteries since they're lighter than nickel-cadmium batteries.

::Edit:: It could be that the plating on the steel can is not magnesium so it doesn't degrade as the magnesium oxide cathode is consumed. I wonder of chromium would do? Sojourner's samples did include 0.2-0.5% chromium oxide. Nickel would require prospecting for it.

Free Spirit · 2003-08-22 01:13:00

*Well, I did encounter quite a few elementary and junior high school math teachers who, when I would ask a question after the lesson, would reply "What did I just tell you?" They did this to other students as well, of course. If I knew what they'd just told us, I wouldn't ask! They would breeze through the lesson, and (it seems) just because Jim Sweers (the brainest guy in the class) could answer any question posed to the class in a few seconds, -lesson over-! It was discouraging to say the least.

I had a Spanish teacher just like that. He was this super cranky old man that somehow expected you to magically learn everything the first time around and had no qualms whatsoever about belittling you if he had to re-explain things. The weirdest part though was how he'd frequently go off on these long lectures on sheep hunting and archaic Spanish words that are no longer used. I think I learned more about wild sheep than I did Spanish.

Maybe one happy day, we'll all meet up at a Mars Society conference and get that opportunity!
I'll even buy the coffee!"
*Okay, and I'll buy the doughnuts!

Did somebody mention coffee and donuts? Hey, I think I could use a refresher or two myself in chemistry.

Shaun Barrett · 2003-08-22 18:31:06

Yes, Free Spirit, we did mention coffee and do(ugh)nuts!
And you're very welcome to join us at our informal chemistry seminar, as and when it happens. Unfortunately though, we're rather long on plans and short on details at present. But you never know, we might just make it happen yet!

Cindy's and your accounts of teachers' behaviour really annoyed me. No teacher worthy of the name would be able to consciously and willingly allow a good student to flounder in confusion. And when I say 'good student', I mean any student who wants to learn!
I've met a few "teachers" like that myself and can only assume they're just time-servers.
I was extraordinarily fortunate to attend a particularly good school in England. It was government, not private, but you had to show some degree of academic inclination to get in .. i.e. pass an exam. (Again, more luck than judgment in my case! ) The teachers were all specialists in their subject and the great majority were dedicated teachers. I had enormous respect for all of them and a genuine affection for several. I still think about them from time to time and hope they're OK.
I met many other kids at that school who were very very smart; much smarter than I was. Whatever I achieved, was achieved at least as much by sweat as by any native wit! I had to try hard and I know the frustration of finding some topics difficult to grasp. That's why I admire a good teacher so much and get so angry at so-called teachers who just don't seem to care.

Oops, sorry! Looks like I absent-mindedly stepped up onto my soap-box again!!

Byron · 2003-08-23 07:58:14

I was extraordinarily fortunate to attend a particularly good school in England. It was government, not private, but you had to show some degree of academic inclination to get in .. i.e. pass an exam. (Again, more luck than judgment in my case! ) The teachers were all specialists in their subject and the great majority were dedicated teachers. I had enormous respect for all of them and a genuine affection for several. I still think about them from time to time and hope they're OK.

Very interesting, Shaun. Exactly what kind of "public" school that you had the fortune to attend? Are there still these types of "merit" schools left in the U.K.? Here in the U.S. we have "magnet" schools for gifted students, where they take advanced classes, etc, but these schools are usually open to regular students as well.

The main problem with U.S. schools really has to do with race and poverty, although few people will openly admit it as such. (PC-ness and all of that.) In many areas of the country, there are schools where African-American students are the majority, while other schools are lily-white. This is not because of any deliberate attempt to re-segregate the public schools; rather it's because people with means (usu. the white ones, although this includes a lot of immigrants as well) move to areas with "white" schools, while the black families are stuck in poorer areas with predominately "black" schools. Guess which schools have higher performing students? For the most part, money is not the issue, as public officials like to make sure all public schools in their respective districts have more or less equal funding (although you have rich and poor school districts, with vast differences in per-pupil spending.) When it comes down to the brass tacks, however, the differences in our educational system is a cultural one. Families with a strong work/educational ethic strive very hard to live in neighborhoods with like-minded families, who all go to the same schools, which help promote a "pro-learning" culture; where learning is "cool." These are the schools that send very high percentages of their students to colleges, have consistently high test scores, etc.

Sadly, when you look at the traditional African-American neighborhoods, many of which are mired in proverty, a huge proportion of students in these schools come from dysfunctional families, often strung-out single mothers (who might have to work 2 jobs just to pay the bills) or worse. And because you have so many of these kids together in one place, there is a general lack of a "learning ethic," and the students that do show promise are often shuttled off to the "magnet" schools I mentioned earlier, as officials are desperate to keep the "numbers" up in these higher-level schools. So you have this constant brain-drain out of the "crummy" schools (call your local Realtor to find out what they are in your city), and furthermore, novice and under-performing teachers are often sent to these least-desirable schools, which only makes things even more difficult.

Here in the state of Florida, we have a thing called the "no Child Left Behind Act," which effectively ends "social promotion," with benchmark exams every student must pass to advance to the next grade level. This coming year, 13% percent of 3rd graders will have to repeat the 3rd grade, and it's plainly evident what schools the vast majority of these students came from. Now the parents of many of these children claim they're being unfairly treated because of their race, etc. I guess the point is that state officials still haven't found a way to actually keep children from "being left behind."

I guess that sums up the great educational dilemma in this country - how to implement equal education in a land of "unequal learners" (and teachers) and vast cultural differences. My own personal educational situation was quite fortunate, I should say, as I went to excellent public schools in a city that operated under a mandated federal integration scheme, which stipulated that every school in the entire county-wide district have the exact racial proportion as the county overall (something like 66% white, 32% black, 2% other.) This was pretty cool, except many of the black children had to endure long bus rides out to the "country" schools, and vice-versa. The particular school I went to (b/c of my district) was a magent school, with excellent teachers and curricula, but even here, there was this thing called "in-school segregation," a term that was never spoken, only whispered. The brighter, college-bound kids were put in higher level classes, while the others were placed in lower level classes. Except for homeroom and P.E., almost all of my classmates were white, while the lower level classes had huge proportions of African-Americans and poorer whites.

Weird, huh? How to rectify this problem? For one thing, I think you would have to eliminate proverty....as this has proven to be one of the largest impediments to getting a good education, as well as promoting a good learning ethic in traditionally underperforming schools (believe me, the pols are trying hard, but not hard enough, imho.) Another idea I support is school choice - allowing kids to pick whatever schools they would like to attend, which would help even things out (the problem you would have then is that the "good" schools would be busting at the seams, while the poor ones would be sitting empty...oh well, what can you do?)

O.K., O.K., I'll step off the soapbox for now..lol

B

Shaun Barrett · 2003-08-23 08:46:58

It's interesting to get the low-down on the school situation in America, Byron. Thank you.

As far as my school in England was concerned, I used the term 'government school' to indicate it was supported by government funds. You have to be careful in England because they use the term 'public school' for their elite fee-paying establishments like Eton and Harrow, where aristocrats have been going to school for centuries. (Not my idea of a public school at all, but there it is.)
Unlike America, England and Australia don't have what you call 'junior high'; we go to primary school first, then highschool.
When I arrived in London at the age of ten, there were two kinds of highschool: grammar school and secondary modern schools. And there was an exam called the 11-plus ( because you were assumed to be 11 years old or older when you sat it I suppose).
If you passed the exam, you were offered a place at a grammar school, an establishment designed to prepare you for university entrance. If you failed, you went to a secondary modern school, which leaned more toward preparing students for clerical work or trades like carpentry or plumbing.
In either case, you had to buy your own school uniform (or at least your parents did) but all tuition, books, and most school sports facilities were provided for you by the state.

This 'streaming' of students at 11 years was not irrevocable as far as the student's future was concerned. For example, in my seventh and final year at grammar school, my pure mathematics master was an '11-plus failure' and had gone to a secondary modern highschool! Obviously, it didn't stop him going on to gain admittance to university and earning a degree in mathematics. And he was an excellent teacher too!

Overall, it was a good system. My school had students from all social levels. We weren't there because of money or colour but simply because we'd all passed the same exam. Some of the poorest kids were among the smartest. The uniform meant we all looked the same and you could never tell by looking at somebody whether his parents were judges or bricklayers.
Those seven years were some of the happiest of my life!

prometheusunbound · 2003-08-23 16:13:45

I come from a rather affulent community, although I won't be staying in it long as my father has lost his job. The other three communitys in my school district are nowhere as affulent as my community. The high school I go to could be considered one of the poorer, more "crummy" HS in the area, but for students who want to get an education it is perfectly fine w/ many advanced courses and collage level courses. Unfortantly, all the better teachers teach the advanced courses and the worst ones teach the lower level courses. Although many are supportative, many just don't care and just want to do the following-

1. Pass struggling student at almost any cost
2. Ingore struggling student because he/she fits in with an streotype of a slacker/bum or a racial sterotype. . .
3. Focus only on the students that do well and ingore the rest. In short, have the top 10% of class become a exclusive club. (clique?)

I have been fortante to expierence a much better (academically) school where there is no real clique. However, I have been at my present one since freshman year, and have been equally fortanate to be able to take the better classes. I do believe that more vocational education would readress the balance between those cut out for college and those who are not.

RobertDyck · 2003-08-23 18:00:17

I am politically minded, and have written letters to my federal Member of Parliament, and the provincial Minister of Education. A few of my ideas to improve the education system are being implemented. I lived in Chester, Virginia (a suburb of Richmond) for 6 months. At that time it was pointed out to me that the quality of education and school facilities was quite different in the suburbs vs. the inner city, although the funding per student was the same. That was the result of vandalism by students in the inner city so the schools had to replace fundamentals and spend money on security rather than new equipment or books, or fresh looking halls, etc. I also lived in Miami, Florida, for 10 months. At that time I was told a survey of school districts across the U.S.A. found that Miami-Dade county had the lowest level of literacy in the country. An article in the Miami Herald stated that teachers were taking so many days off for "stress" that if a student took that many days off the student wouldn't graduate. The Herald's conclusion was that teachers there are lazy.

When I was a student in Canada I found education to be a bit of a challenge. There weren't any "magnate" schools or "advanced learning" schools. The only option at that time was to fit in a regular public school class, or skip a grade in the same school. I found I was held back in math and science from kindergarten through grade 6. Elementary school starts with grade 1; kindergarten is the year before that. Junior high was well paced and I learned a lot (grades 7-9). Grade 10 science taught nothing, it was a review of junior high while waiting for math to catch up, but I was still held back in math in grades 10 and 11. I actually had teachers tell me to stop giving myself advanced algebra problems. Science in grades 11 and 12 were well paced, and what was at that time called 300 physics/chemistry/biology/computer science covered most if not all of first year college. It was roughly equivalent to Advanced Placement in the US. The 300 courses were more comprehensive, 301 covered the same subject but were less comprehensive. The 300 courses were intended to be college entrance. I'm using the American term "college" although in Canada it is called university. It's ironic that the first year of science in high school taught nothing, it was just a review of the previous school; then the first year of science in college also taught nothing, it was also a review of the previous school. A few years ago the high schools took over grade 9. Since junior high only as grades 7 and 8, it has been renamed middle school. Instead of courses for grade 10 being 100 or 101, grade 11 being 20x, and grade 12 being 30x; now grade 9 courses are 10S for comprehensive courses or 10G for less comprehensive courses, grade 10 is 20G or 20S, grade 11 is 30G or 30S, and grade 12 is 40G or 40S. Whether a student takes an 'S' course is solely dependent on whether the student passed the previous grade 'S' course in the same subject, and wants to take that course. Any student may attend any school within the same school division as their home. University entrance has minimum grade requirements for 40S courses. For example, if a student wants to enrol in first year university physics, the student must first have high school 40S physics with a minimum grade of xx%. (I forget the number.) To enrol in the faculty of science the student must have a minimum number of high school 40S science courses, each with a minimum grade. There is no racial differentiation, although there is a little tension with whatever is the latest immigrant group. However, school divisions in poor neighbourhoods do tend to have slightly lower quality of education than rich neighbourhoods. In Canada there is no racial differentiation, although there is a differentiation between rich and poor.

Today the province of Ontario does have advanced learning programs. Modes 1 and 2 are just additional courses taught in addition to normal public school. Mode 3 advanced learning is a separate school where each student is taught at his/her own rate, independent of any grade.

The recommendations I made to the Manitoba minister of education which are being implemented are to better coordinate the different levels of school, and to create a system which permits high school students to graduate with credit toward first year college. The dual-credit high school system (as it's now called in Manitoba) permits students to graduate high school with credit for up to all of first year college. Manitoba is also increasing the number of degrees taught at Red River College. That college uses a 10-month 3-term calendar. Normally in university, the school year has 2 semesters per year so 2nd, 3rd, and 4th year have a total of 6 semesters. At Red River College those 6 semesters take 2 years to complete. That means the dual-credit high school system combined with the 10-month 3-term calendar permits a student to complete a 4-year bachelor degree in just 2 years. That is due to reduction of vacation time, improved scheduling of exams, and making the equivalent of an Advanced Placement high school program the norm for all university entrance students. This really isn't hard since it's the same 10-month calendar as high school, and high schools have been teaching at that level for a couple decades. Also, math in high school has changed since I took it; before the implementation of the dual-credit high school system they already taught calculus 1, introduction to statistics, and some schools even taught linear algebra. Red River College still only teaches very few degree programs, and the University of Winnipeg and University of Manitoba continue to use the traditional 8-month 2-semester calendar, but it's a start. Red River College charges the same annual tuition as the University of Manitoba, so cutting the number of years in half effectively cuts the total tuition for a degree in half.

By the way, after having answers marked wrong in arithmetic class in elementary school if I gave an answer that was a grade or two beyond the class, and being told by teachers in grades 10 and 11 to stop giving myself advanced algebra problems, when they said "now do it" in grade 12 I had a mental block. Math 300 at that time covered trigonometry comprehensively, you could call it trigonometric algebra although today it would be called pre-calculus. As a consequence I did badly in second term calculus (integration) in college. I still need a tutor for that. It's a good thing I took computer science instead of theoretical physics.

Palomar · 2003-08-23 19:30:14

*Well, for what it's worth:

The schoolteachers I referred to were all in my hometown...a tiny Iowa farming community where 99.9% of all people were white and middle-class.

Stupid attitudes (i.e. "What did I just get done telling you?" of pathetic, lazy "teachers") can be found everywhere, regardless of racial demographics, income levels, etc. Yes, I know you all know this...I just wanted to point out, though, that there was no "black kids over there, honkies over here" in my hometown. There were 3 nonwhites in that town (1 Native American, 2 Koreans).

--Cindy

Shaun Barrett · 2003-08-23 20:48:10

It's plain to see that education is often a sore point for people. I suppose it's because it takes place at time in life when we are going through an emotional physical and mental development period. Everything is so real and so important and, frequently, so painful. Injustices seem more unjust and relationships more intense.

Thanks guys, for the interesting glimpse of schooling in other parts of the world and a taste of the obvious shortcomings thereof!
I very much sympathise with Robert for the trouble he experienced with mathematics. How frustrating for a student with such a clear interest in a subject to be held back for so long. This is the kind of thing which causes me so much anger when it comes to education! I can't tolerate cruelty to children, in any shape or form, and this is a kind of 'slow-burn' psychological cruelty with a damaging outcome all of its own. It's not physical cruelty but it can leave scars which last just as long and change lives almost as profoundly, in some cases.

A very emotive issue which evidently leaves many with a bitter taste in the mouth.
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