China - New Competition for Nasa/U.S.

dredge · 2003-02-02 18:53:02

I am really excited to hear that China will put a man in space later this year. I read that they will shoot for the Moon after that.

My personal thoughts are that if China wasent doing all of this, no one in our government (U.S.) would care about Nuclear Rockets or getting to Mars. If China gets to the Moon, we are no longer "the best" in the area of space travel.

I really love China for their commitment to space, and the ripple effects it's causing.

dredge

Adrian · 2003-02-02 19:20:25

Moved to Sci-Tech forum.

Josh Cryer · 2003-02-02 20:08:39

Adrian made a comment that was quite insiteful, if not ironic... he said something along the lines of (quoting someone or no), that the next man into space may be Chinese.

I think that China does hold the biggest potential with regards to space. And I think that if the US doesn't get its act together, we may be behind very quickly, without even noticing.

I was watching my Babylon 5 Season 1 DVD set last night. The episode I was watching (entitled By Any Means Necessary) basically had an issue with the government workers going on strike (which is illegal of course), the Commander's solution was to lower the increasing military spending that was occuring (ironically, he couldn't have done if had another character not invoke an act which gave the commander ?any means? to fix an illegal striking problem- which usually results in mass arrests- the commander showed them!).

With the US droping another 100 billion to their military budget, one must wonder... what's the harm in taking half and putting it in the space program? I don't mean to stray from the central topic, here. I'm just throwing about possible solutions.

soph · 2003-02-02 20:29:54

the problem is, many might chose to deny it, or might not even realise it, but america's military budget isnt only for america-its for western europe, japan, and some of our other trade partners as well. ever since world war 2, our military has kept western europe secure against the soviet union, and now, the middle east.

europe would have a major problem if they had to support a military with america's capabilities. the very threat of american intervention kept the soviets from moving across germany, and possibly western europe.

if we were to cut money, it would mean our overseas capacity would be greatly diminished, and our trade network would be insecure. this is not just from an american standpoint, our trade partners would experience the same problems.

Josh Cryer · 2003-02-04 09:58:43

I find the argument dubious at best. The US, indeed, has secured the wealth of nations, the question is whether or not the US's capablities have been used for the greater good or not. After WW2, things arguably went downhill. There are very few ?achievements? we've had militarily, which we weren't the direct cause of (hell, we were even involved in selling things to Germany in WW2, so it's arguable that it goes back beyond that point).

clark · 2003-02-04 13:15:13

In a world full of guns, wouldn't you want to live in the place with the "most guns"?

Multilateralism is a good goal, but invariably, we want the ability to project our will, and our view independantly of anyone else. That's what it means to be "free".

We could arguably maintain US hegemony with only our economic and politcal power, however, it is the military that ensures our soft-power.

Britain and france each have a veto on the UN, permanent members, yet their military power is nothing next to that of the US. If we reduce our military spending, we reduce our capability- our ability to achieve certain goals on our own.

Could we divert money to NASA or other space related ventures, no doubt. But military spending, especially with our current administration (Rumsfeld and Cheney) focus on weaponizing space is doing nothing but improving the overall situation for space advocates.

Josh Cryer · 2003-02-04 13:30:17

clark, the question is whether or not it's worth pulling back military spending to beat China to the moon, Mars, and at building a basic space infrastructure. We already know that it's not going to happen.

The argument that things like Starwars are actually going to help build relevant space infrastructure are laughable. I see nothing in our current administrations itinerary with regard to manned space flight. Most of it is pork.

clark · 2003-02-04 13:47:05

I see nothing in our current administrations itinerary with regard to manned space flight. Most of it is pork.

Look up "Orbital Space Plane".
Look up "Military Space Plane".
Look up "X-37;X-38,X-40".
Look up "Quadrennial Review"
Look up "DOD space policy"
Look up "Air Force Reseach Lab"
Look up "national space policy"
Look up "space bomber"

Hell, SLI, the Space Launch Intitive; the redesign within NASA itself, all is focused on producing the technology to make human space flight economical and realizable. Look at the nuclear intitive to see what I am talking about. Read interviews from Sean O'Keffe- the goal is to produce the technology that will allow us to make human space flight attainable.

This all goes hand in hand of an over-arching vision for Space. The guy in charge of the military, Rumsfeld, was also in charge of reviewing national space polices- then he was charged with reassesing our militaries future!

We are umping money into the military in preperation for any future conflict with China (Hellooooo Tawian). That means scuring space. that means we need reliable RLV technology- launch on command; and a more generaly robust space infrastructure that the military can rely on.

You can look into other military white papers, they call for a greater utilization of the commerical sector for things like satellites and space realted technology.

And, take a look at NASA's strategic vision:

http://www.spaceref.com/docs/nasa/strategi.pdf

You might notice that one of their PRIMARY building blocks is to enable 100+ day missions BEYOND LEO.

Josh Cryer · 2003-02-04 14:48:47

Hmm, well, I did several quick searches, and am confident that they are largely meaningless from a long term perspective. A space bomer means nothing to the futhered exploration and eventual colonization of space, clark. It just means we'll be able to blow people up here on Earth much easier.

Orbital space plane, fine and dandy, but it's pointless sitting amongst other ideas for reusable launchers, and not actually being built. Latest news I can read about it is in mid to late 2002, and it won't be built until 2007 from what I see. It takes a good dip from SLI, though, depreciating the program very badly. And even NASA accepts that it wouldn't be a replacement for the Shuttles... (saying that actual replacements would cost around $50 billion), and that it would just be a manned Shuttle for the ISS.

Okay, I'm really not impressed here, clark.

I need to be convinced that this is going to help privatization and colonization and things of that nature. All I'm convinced is that taxpayer money is being thrown away so that people can play with new toys which blow things up.

Josh Cryer · 2003-02-04 15:02:50

Heh, read the whole, ?Integrated Space Transportation Plan.?

Pretty, well... underwelming. The first flight is planned for 2015? Jesus. I hope China pushes us when they start putting people into space. Otherwise we'll be so pathetically behind, it won't even be funny.

The orbital space plane needs to be dropped. Any and all funding going into it needs to end right now.

The ISS needs to be scrapped.

The Shuttles need to be scrapped.

Nuclear rocket technology needs to be developed immediately.

Man, what I could do with $15 billion a year... hell, the $2 billion a year from SLI, going into the Space Plane alone could build a nice nuclear rocket.

Josh Cryer · 2003-02-04 15:07:16

I'm too lazy to edit. Let me just add that this is basically what NASA is planning on doing: intead of stopping any and all traffic into space for a period of time, they're developing a manned resuable vehicle. In 2010 they plan to scrap the Space Shuttle, continuing to use the ISS until 2015 with the Space Plane (which like I said, they're developing now-which is draining resources from other potential areas), until a Space Shuttle replacement can be built.

This is sad. It really is. Welcome to the world of limited budgets.

clark · 2003-02-05 14:51:48

The orbital space plane will be what the shuttle should have been, a man-rated space ship only.

What you should realize though is that all of these programs in conjunction will have the effect of further stimulating our space capabilities. You should also realize that by neccessity, out space infrastructure will increase to support our ever increasing reliance on space based assests.

The military NEEDS space dominance, and it will need a civilian commercial sector to get there.

soph · 2003-02-05 15:01:10

Heh, read the whole, ?Integrated Space Transportation Plan.?
Pretty, well... underwelming. The first flight is planned for 2015? Jesus. I hope China pushes us when they start putting people into space. Otherwise we'll be so pathetically behind, it won't even be funny.
The orbital space plane needs to be dropped. Any and all funding going into it needs to end right now.
The ISS needs to be scrapped.
The Shuttles need to be scrapped.
Nuclear rocket technology needs to be developed immediately.
Man, what I could do with $15 billion a year... hell, the $2 billion a year from SLI, going into the Space Plane alone could build a nice nuclear rocket.

well:

1) No, it shouldnt be dropped. The OSP looks like a very promising alternative to the Shuttle, one that can be built in 5-10 years. Until then, we should fly the shuttle. Think of the OSP as a "stepping stone" to third generation spaceplanes. It should not be permanent, but we need it to lower the cost of launches, and free up the shuttle funding, both for more launches, and more research.

2) No, not after already building it. It has some use, for medical research. Perhaps 5 years ago, but not billion of dollars later.

3) After we have an alternative built, yes. Until then, we need to keep flying the three we have.

4) Absolutely. But we need to free up money by using the OSP or VentureStar-which had other issues besides a landing strut. I would love a nuclear spaceplane. But we need an intermediary, and a chance to convince the public. Use the next 5-10 years to design a spaceplane free from critical failures, as the columbia was.

my idea, and others, of using the ntr for launch, orbit, then slowing down and shutting down the reactor for reentry would work well, because you only have a chance for critical failure in the first 5-10 minutes, which is very unlikely. You could even use a ramjet for low atmosphere, ntr for high atmosphere, so there is no real danger at all!

5) call bill gates!

SpaceNut · 2015-08-16 09:45:11

Hey, Josh could you fix this topic please.....

Clark had it some what right with the congress wanting to fund pork projects with the president wanting a commercial fleet of providers but it comes back to being able to turn a profit and flight rates which will tell which way will last....

SpaceNut · 2019-08-31 19:37:24

Quite a bit has changed since my last post in this topic and now I can even fix the issue which was caused by the boards data conversions.
China has become quite the manned and robitic capable country.
They have had a couple of space stations and human crews manning them.
They also have the only lunar rover that has lasted through several lunar nights to wake each time to continue wit h its exploration.

China's lunar rover has found something weird on the moon's far side

Of course finding something that is unexpected is the quest and it seems to have done just that.

China's Chang'e-4 lunar rover has discovered an unusually colored, "gel-like" substance during its exploration activities on the far side of the moon

Nice tracks
AAGBNnP.img?h=471&w=799&m=6&q=60&o=f&l=f

Sure would be nice to have that lab,,,,,

tahanson43206 · 2020-05-09 06:57:58

Progress by the Chinese can be seen as a positive development on a global scale.

Rivalries between the Great Powers have been fruitful in the recent past when they play out in space development.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/chinas-space … 19497.html

The United States has some citizens who seem to recognize the growth of China as a global competitor on many fronts.

The United States has many citizens who are preoccupied with other concerns.

In general, I believe that the achievements of a population should be separated from the politics of their leaders.

(th)

SpaceNut · 2020-05-09 18:29:31

The ability for the Chinese rover to survive the lunar days and nights would be a plus for mars.

Mars_B4_Moon · 2022-06-11 14:22:55

Looks like the race is on to build the first Farm in Space

The yeast variety "Saccharomyces cerevisiae" has been instrumental in winemaking, baking, and brewing since ancient times.

Here Are The Science Experiments That NASA Wants To Send To The Moon
https://www.slashgear.com/890974/here-a … -the-moon/
China beginning a space race? - Fallout from NASA's China Snub
https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=2071

kbd512 · 2022-06-11 15:38:02

Mars_B4_Moon,

We're not "snubbing" the Chinese. We cannot work with people who have military conquest ambitions directly opposed to our own national security interests. Every aspect of what we attempt to share with them for peaceful purposes is immediately converted into a military technology program. The people who run the Chinese government are not interested in peaceful coexistence with others. They want to use the Chinese military to dominate other nations, and America has been through two separate World Wars so we know how that ends. We're not interested in helping them do that, which is why we have pulled back on most aerospace-related cooperative projects. Nobody I know of, across the political spectrum (ignoring the literal handful of fringe elements of our society who blame others for the problems they created), looks down their nose at Chinese people. That has never been what this is about.

As far as building the first "farm in space", the Chinese are a little late to the party. NASA has already conducted a myriad of experiments with growing plants and raising small animals. The results thus far are mixed.

Calliban · 2022-06-11 16:03:46

As Peter Zeihan has pointed out, China is likely to be a failed state a decade from now. Its demographics are the worst in the world, thanks to one child policy and rapid urbanisation. Chinese population will decline by at least a third over the next 30 years. There is no point starting any sort of cooperative programme with a country that isn't going to be around as a serious player a decade from now.

On top of that, it is crucially dependant on imports for all energy other than coal. Greenies like to sing praises over the Chinese renewable energy drive. They seem to miss the fact that this policy is motivated by desperation. It is driven by a desperate attempt at making China's limited coal reserves stretch further. The only Chinese coal reserves capable of expanding production now are a long way from population centres. This is a big part of the decision to turn Xinxiang into the solar factory for the world. It allows stranded coal reserves to be used to create an energy product that can be shipped. China is lagging in high technology, specialising in low grade assembly of components that are mostly made elsewhere. Any cooperative venture with China must involve technology transfer, which no corporate body in their right mind would agree to. Its political system has turned from communist hierachy into outright despotism. That doesn't bode well for the ability of their government to face the enormous challenges ahead.

Maybe Taiwan, South Korea and Japan are better prospects for a cooperative international programme in space. They all have high technology that would make them serious partners in a multinational space programme. But the Chinese aren't interested in that sort of cooperation and won't be able to keep their end up anyway beyond the 2020s. Joint programmes between the PRC and USA, just don't make sense at any level. A joint programme between the US and other east Asian countries is not such a bad idea. The main pitfall is that programmes like the ISS end up being pork barrels that end up costing a lot more because all the contributing parties want a share of the money and technology. So international politics tends to make programmes cumbersome and costly.

Last edited by Calliban (2022-06-11 16:13:50)

Mars_B4_Moon · 2022-08-10 05:52:05

The Russian Soviets were different to the Chinese culture, the Russian put the First Dog in Space, the first Man in space and the first Woman in space...but in year 1985 the USA would launch a follower of Mahomet into space On the Shuttle flight Saudi a member of Royalty and a mohammedan on STS-51. Russian Soviets would later launch many mohammedans, from Syria, an Afghan, it is unknown if all these people were true muslim islamic mohammedean followers of jihad culture or maybe they could have been chosen as Communists Atheists since many were launched in Soviet USSR times. Russia also launched many other cultures Kazakh, Azerbaijan, Kyrgyzstan, Russian has also put Malaysia and United Arab Emirates into space, the Malaysian expected to observe Mecca or Ramadan, the Islamic National Fatwa Council drew up the first comprehensive guidebook for Muslims in space. There have been many cultures in Space, Christian, Jewish, Atheist, Shinto, Buddhist and Hindu, Kalpana Chawla an Indian-born American astronaut and mechanical engineer who was the first woman of Indian origin to go to space but died with the break up of Space Shuttle Columbia, also on the flight Ilan Ramon and Six stars which have five points, the seventh has six points like a Star of David, symbolizing the Israeli Space Agency's contributions to the mission. The problem with people who read on islamism is they think islamism is always spread by a bomb but sometimes it is not, there are softer versions of jihad such as migration or infiltration, there is instruction of Hegria or Hijra by example in their book the Quran or Koran.

The unique thing about China is almost everything it has done and achieved it has done on its own and in isolation, sure maybe it has been inspired by others, almost stole or copied another idea but it is amazing what Chinese have achieved in short time. As for the mulit-culture element to space it seems these days some all peoples and culture such as Egyptians are now flying with the Private Sector, when you go on a website for example sometimes people like Anousheh Ansari are classed in news headline as the 'First Muslim Woman' but does she really practice mohammedanism, she is of Iranian heritage but also an American engineer, maybe the fact that muslims issue a Death Penalty against Apostacy or Ex-muslim Atheists is why some people would live in fear of speaking out, this mohammedan jihadi Sharia Law extending into the Western world, ready to launch Punishment of Death to people from their own culture even when they live inside another country, the mohammedan will refuse to obey that new nation's Law, instead a Law of Death is enforced upon them, a Theocratic Law of jihad and islamism from 600 AD era. Anousheh Ansari and Firouz Naderi represented Iranian filmmaker Asghar Farhadi at the 89th Academy Awards and accepted the Academy Award for Best Foreign Language Film for The Salesman on Farhadi's behalf. Farhadi did not attend the ceremony due to his opposition to President Trump's immigration ban applying to seven Muslim countries including Iran. Farhadi selected Ansari and Naderi as his representatives because both are successful Iranian-Americans who immigrated to the US, in year 2009, Ansari was featured in the documentary film Space Tourists by independent Swiss filmmaker Christian Frei about billionaires who paid to ride to the International Space Station aboard Russian spacecraft. Will Atheists of muslim nations be more sucessful or will the Mosque and the jihadi cults of mohammedanism continue to proliferate from Earth into outer space?

SpaceX Crew-6 is planned to be the sixth crewed operational NASA Commercial Crew flight of a Crew Dragon spacecraft, and the eleventh overall crewed orbital flight. The mission is planned for launch in early 2023. The Crew-6 mission will transport four crew members to the International Space Station (ISS). Two NASA astronauts, a United Arab Emirates astronaut, and a Russian cosmonaut have been assigned to the mission. Australia invested in Sultan AlNeyadi, he went to Australia and received a master's degree in Information and Networks Security from Griffith University, he was also at the University of Brighton is a public university based on four campuses in Brighton and Eastbourne on the south coast of England.

Will the United States of America help launch islamist mohammedanism jihadi culture to the Moon and Mars?

Does China have the same desires to expand idenity politics and multi-religion and sending desert dwelling cults and multi culturalism into space....maybe not.

it seems they made gestures like UN flags but perhaps in the end care more that if a Town or University or School or Factor is on the Moon or Mars it will also have Chinese flags and the writing or language broadcast or spoken word will be Chinese culture.

Of course with X-37 type Shuttles there is a possibility of a military side to this.

Reusable experimental spacecraft put into orbit

https://www.spacedaily.com/reports/Reus … t_999.html

China launched a Long March 2F carrier rocket at the Jiuquan Satellite Launch Center in Northwest China's Gobi Desert early on Friday morning, sending a reusable experimental spacecraft into orbit, according to China Aerospace Science and Technology Corp.

The leading State-owned space conglomerate said in a news release that the test vehicle is scheduled to stay in orbit for a certain period of time and will then return to its preset landing site in China.

Last edited by Mars_B4_Moon (2022-08-10 06:04:29)

Calliban · 2022-08-10 09:31:49

India is a more probable long term competitor to the US in space. It is the only other economy of any size that isn't facing outright demographic collapse within the next few decades. By 2050, Russia and China will be failed states, with only half their present day population and no competitive advantage in anything. They may in fact cease to exist as unified entities. Europe will be a fractured mass of smaller states, some of which will survive, some will disappear. Mexico, Argentina and Turkey will be significant regional economies, but not on the same scale as the US. India is probably already the largest country in the world by population and its demographics are far better than any other large economy. So India is the great power of the future. It is concievable that it will overtake the US by GDP befire mid century.

Last edited by Calliban (2022-08-10 09:33:13)

Void · 2022-08-10 13:15:39

From my point of view, the USA is the result of a 1st British Empire. India, of the 2nd British Empire. I am sure they will hate the thought, as they do indeed have very deep prior civilizations in their foundations.

But one can love and hate if you wish, but practicality does matter in either case.

I see them as in a sense our mirrored twin. It is not so much that we would do something based on some treaties, but rather from natural situations.

Being on two sides of the planet essentially, you have to go to a lot of effort to annoy each other.

As they are more recently independent, it can be expected that they may interpret our intentions as being worse than they are. And in reality, we do have some real people with questionable tact and intentions. But in the scope of time, those get sorted out.

We don't need to compete with them for energy or food.

And space is vast.

But yes, there could be irrational behaviors from each and also possibly triggered by their neighbors. I guess we cannot suppose that stupid will not emerge from time to time.

But India potentially can keep half of the planet busy, and if we do what is right as much as we can it may be that we will also do OK.

What we each have to worry about is siphons, and mimics.

Mimics read from a book (Library) and fail to test realty for truth. Siphons think that the most important thing is to be in charge of whatever is going on. They do not think that lifting reality is their task, rather to simply siphon the energy out of what is going on.

Many of these think that if the lower ranks suffer, it is actually a good thing, as it will benefit their soul, and give them a possible path to reward in the afterlife. And while that can be true, challenge can cause growth, these types will cause it to happen even if it does not need to happen.

That is my opinion.

We really don't know about India, it could be a good thing or maybe if the mimics and siphons have their way, a downfall for humanity. And so, also we.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-08-10 13:28:15)

Mars_B4_Moon · 2022-08-25 04:37:36

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Mars_B4_Moon · 2023-09-20 07:50:44

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While attending a conference in the United States recently, I overheard an American expert discussing the space competition between China and the US.

After the event, I approached the expert to inquire about the possibility of space cooperation between the two countries. His answer is a matter of concern. He explained that as long as the US Congress doesn't withdraw the ban it announced in 2011, official space collaboration between China and the US is unlikely.
https://www.spacewar.com/reports/Will_S … s_999.html

The escalating competition between China and the US in cislunar space risks spiraling out of control. And all signs suggest their space rivalry may extend to Mars in the next two to three decades, possibly leading to even more negative consequences.

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#1 2003-02-02 18:53:02

Re: China - New Competition for Nasa/U.S.

#2 2003-02-02 19:20:25

Re: China - New Competition for Nasa/U.S.

#3 2003-02-02 20:08:39

Re: China - New Competition for Nasa/U.S.

#4 2003-02-02 20:29:54

Re: China - New Competition for Nasa/U.S.

#5 2003-02-04 09:58:43

Re: China - New Competition for Nasa/U.S.

#6 2003-02-04 13:15:13

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#7 2003-02-04 13:30:17

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#8 2003-02-04 13:47:05

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#9 2003-02-04 14:48:47

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#10 2003-02-04 15:02:50

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#11 2003-02-04 15:07:16

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#12 2003-02-05 14:51:48

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#13 2003-02-05 15:01:10

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#14 2015-08-16 09:45:11

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#15 2019-08-31 19:37:24

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#16 2020-05-09 06:57:58

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#17 2020-05-09 18:29:31

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#18 2022-06-11 14:22:55

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#19 2022-06-11 15:38:02

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#20 2022-06-11 16:03:46

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#21 2022-08-10 05:52:05

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#22 2022-08-10 09:31:49

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#23 2022-08-10 13:15:39

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#24 2022-08-25 04:37:36

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#25 2023-09-20 07:50:44

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