Question on the iron carbonyl process - Has the iron oxide issue been settled?

Bill White · 2003-11-28 22:13:41

This link, for example, among others, suggests that forming carbonyl gas is an easy way to produce pure iron, which can be molded into numerous useful implements - - like your grandma's cast iron skillet.

RobertDyck contributes to a site http://chapters.marssociety.org/winnipeg/materials.html

which includes this:

Carbonyl process to extract iron
Using iron carbonyl production, the iron is drawn off as a carbonyl vapor. A mixture containing iron is heated to 120?C with CO and the pressure is raised a bar or two. The gas is drawn off leaving the SiO2, CaO, etc as they were. The gas is depressurised and cooled with the Fe(CO)5 condensing out for our use. Iron carbonyl production Fe + 5CO -> Fe(CO)5 120?C liquid, vaporises at modest pressures. Iron deposition from iron carbonyl Fe(CO)5 -> Fe + 5CO at 200?C.
At first glance this is particularly useful for Mars due to its low energy requirement, and the fact that it leaves the SiO2, CaO, etc suitable for further processing or as a soil. However, the carbonyl process requires metalic iron as its starting point; iron in regolith is an oxide. That still requires smelting to reduce it, and smelting temperature will convert regolith into slag.

Has anyone figured out how to efficiently obtain iron for the carbonyl process from the huge piles of iron oxide (rust) that must litter Mars?

If settlers must smelt regolith to obtain metallic iron, be sure do it under the skirts of a solar chimney, okay?

Shaun Barrett · 2003-12-01 18:55:15

Bill:-

If settlers must smelt regolith to obtain metallic iron, be sure to do it under the skirts of a solar chimney, okay?

Ha-ha !! :laugh:

You know, Bill, for a hand-wringing, bleeding-heart, linguine-spined, arty-farty, pinko Democrat, you have a pretty good sense of humour!

[I meant all that in the nicest possible way, of course. ]

RobS · 2003-12-01 19:48:52

There should be a certain amount of meteoritic nickel-iron littering the surface that can be extracted magnetically. The Martian climate doesn't weather stuff much, so the iron should still largely be unrusted.

-- RobS

RobertDyck · 2003-12-04 09:04:32

Bill:-
If settlers must smelt regolith to obtain metallic iron, be sure to do it under the skirts of a solar chimney, okay?
Ha-ha !! :laugh:
You know, Bill, for a hand-wringing, bleeding-heart, linguine-spined, arty-farty, pinko Democrat, you have a pretty good sense of humour!
[I meant all that in the nicest possible way, of course. ]

I have trouble believing you actually posted this Shaun. That has to be one of the harshest condemnations I have read on this board. Let's at least try to stick together and support each other in our quest to get to Mars. We can discuss means to get there, but whether someone is Democrat or Republican, communist or capitalist is a personal decision and hardly appropriate for insults. It is my belief that Mars is the ultimate retreat to get away from monolithic political views; Mars is the place where everyone can be themselves without pressure to conform. The only pressure should be avoidance of violence and that starts with avoidance of the harsh prejudice you just expressed. We have enough violence on Earth, and the life support systems on Mars cannot endure war or riots. That means tolerance and acceptance of your fellow human, or die. There are those who believe the best economic system for Mars is communism; after all there won't be many resources so the colonists will have to share what they have. I think we can safely say that the old prejudices and ideological arguments of Earth must be left on Earth; any Mars colony must be practical.

To further support Bill, I would have to call myself a Democrat. I believe in democracy, in fact I lived in Florida during the last U.S. federal election. I think the Electoral College system is stupid; the U.S. has the technology to directly elect their president. I believe in empowering the citizens, not selecting an elite to rule. That does require a good education system. Politically, I would call my views Democrat and not Republican. I also believe elected officials must be accountable to their voters, more so than their party. The ability for free votes does align with the Democratic Party in the U.S. However I'm also for a balanced budget and not subsidizing those too lazy to work, so my views do not exactly align with any established political party.

To look at politics from another perspective, I heard an American complain that the Japanese tend to avoid vocal arguments. If an American starts to argue loudly and forcefully with a Japanese individual, the Japanese will just smile politely and quietly walk away then do whatever he/she intended to do. The person who pointed this out to me stated that Japanese must learn to argue if they want to operate on ISS; but I would claim the reverse is true, Americans must learn to respect other cultures and learn how to resolve a disagreement without shouting or name calling. The reason a Japanese would do this is that their culture forbids loud, forceful arguments so anyone who starts to do so is treated as having just lost. The person you try to argue with will have just won simply because you raised your voice, swore or used name-calling such as "pinko", or otherwise treated the other person without respect. In the Japanese culture if you fail to show respect, you loose. So since you loose, the other person has won and is therefore free to do it his/her way.

RobertDyck · 2003-12-04 09:14:00

Getting back to the technical aspect of Bill's question: Collecting heat in such a way that the energy can be recycled is just good design. You may want to use other techniques than a solar chimney, but the principle is quite sound. One problem with smelting is that it converts the remaining material into slag. That is a glassy mess. The silicon dioxide in rock literally melts in the furnace and re-solidifies as glass, but with all the other left-overs mixed in. It certainly wouldn't be useful as soil in a greenhouse, and might not be useful to harvest other resources such as glass, aluminum, gypsum, clay, etc. One possibility is to use a solvent that dissolves the material you want to concentrate, but leaves the rest. This is used to process bauxite: an acid dissolves alumina but leaves the iron oxide and dirt. Then the acid is processed to get the alumina out, and the acid is recycled. Pure alumina can then be smelted with electricity to make aluminum. Is there an acid that will dissolve iron oxide bearing minerals but leave the others? Could a chemical process extract iron oxide from augite and bronzite leaving the calcium and silicon dioxide? Hematite should be easy to separate; it's already pure iron oxide.

Josh Cryer · 2003-12-04 12:53:49

Talking about solar chimneys, would it be possible/advantageous to have one in a dome? I mean, considering that the outside atmosphere is pretty ridiculously thin, a pressurized dome would have much greater air circulation. And the chimney itself could be supported by the dome. Think a donut, but without a real hole (instead of a hole, the top part is covered).

I think the only problem with this might be light considerations, plus, clear domes aren't yet feasible technologically...

Anyway, I'm glad the process you described, Robert, uses an acid that is recyclable. At first I was going to reply, scolding you for agreeing with the "conserve everything" concept but using a consumable acidic process!

Shaun Barrett · 2003-12-04 19:01:42

Robert:-

I have trouble believing you actually posted this Shaun. That has to be one of the harshest condemnations I have read on this board.

No no no no no !!! Dear Robert (and I mean Dear Robert without irony), you misinterpret my post completely and misjudge my intentions.
I'm on record elsewhere at New Mars praising Bill for his intelligence and his cogent arguments in favour of his ideals.

Bill recently espoused the idea of utilising waste heat from a fission reactor to supplement the performance of a solar tower on Mars. I made enthusiastic noises about it and tried to encourage more discussion about it, even when reservations about radiation were voiced by other interested contributors. I still think it's an idea worth further consideration.
Bill's comment at this thread, about doing our smelting under a solar tower collector-skirt, struck me as amusing and I wanted to tell him so. But I wanted to say it in a tongue-in-cheek way which might also be found humorous.
Knowing Bill holds anti-Republican views (he makes no secret of it), I assumed he must be a Democrat. So I couched my compliment about Bill's sense of humour in a classic pantomime description of his political leanings, as you might expect a right-wing radio shock-jock to express it.

After some of the things I've said at New Mars, I would half expect someone like, say Alt2War or even Bill, to describe me as a "wild-eyed, slavering, gun-toting, nazi-sympathising, white-supremacist red-neck with neo-imperialist leanings"! But that's O.K. .. it's all part of the game.

The truth of the matter, as I touched on above, is that I, in common with most people here I suspect, hold Bill in high regard. When he posts about something, I tend to sit up and pay attention. Even when I don't altogether agree with his political views, he makes me think hard about my own position on things and he's been successful in causing me to modify one or two of my beliefs simply because of his persuasive logic and the inoffensive way he presents it.

Thinking I knew Bill well enough, and that he knew enough about me not to always take me at face value, I launched into the post in question.

I'm saddened a little, Robert, to think that you could really take me for the kind of person of "harsh prejudice" you went on to describe.
On the other hand, given that you believed I was genuinely attacking Bill, I have to say I admire the way you came to his defence. As it happens, I've also been a quiet admirer of your democratic views and been impressed with your drive and determination to 'work the system', as it was meant to be worked, and 'go through channels' to bring about change. That takes energy and initiative.

You see, Robert, I didn't mean it and I'm sorry for the whole misunderstanding. I never would have done it if I'd known it was going to cause more trouble than it was worth.

[P.S. I hope this doesn't mean we can't rag each other a little bit every now and then. I think it helps if we can laugh at our politics sometimes; it reminds us that, first and foremost, we're human beings.]

RobertDyck · 2003-12-04 19:22:18

I'm glad the process you described, Robert, uses an acid that is recyclable. At first I was going to reply, scolding you for agreeing with the "conserve everything" concept but using a consumable acidic process!

Good, more technical details.

On Earth, alumina is separated from bauxite ore by crushing it, then dissolving in caustic soda (NaOH) at 145?C (300?F) and 50 psi for over 30 minutes. Then more caustic soda is added. The result is moved to a flash tank to reduce pressure and recover heat. That is moved to a settling tank. After letting the solids settle out, the result is filtered. The remaining red mud is washed to recover caustic soda and alumina. Alumina is then precipitated out of solution by crystallising, using alumina hydrate seed crystals. Alumina hydrate is then "calcinated" by heating it to 1,100?C (2,000?F) to remove water, converting it to alumina.

Notice the caustic soda is completely recycled, using only pressure and heat. Samples taken by Sojourner's APXS instrument showed between 2.2% and 4.4% NaO2, after projecting oxides stoichiometrically. However, a CIPW analysis to estimate the mineral forms using the results from MGS as a guide, indicates the sodium is most probably in the form of salt (NaCl). That works out to 1.0% to 1.8% salt by weight. Caustic soda can be made from salt and water using electricity; the process is called chloralkali electrolysis. In a cell with a membrane separating the water anode from the cathode, add salt to the side with the anode; it will off-gas chlorine. Add water the the side with the cathode, it will off-gas hydrogen and create caustic soda. The membrane must be permeable to sodium ions.

To remove the oxygen, aluminum requires electricity run through it, but alumina itself does not conduct electricity. Alumina is usually dissolved in molten cryolite because that conducts electricity. Cryolite is a brittle translucent rock with the formula Na3AlF. Some of the sodium from cryolite is lost by combining with oxygen from the alumina, leaving aluminum fluoride (AlF); this is still conductive. As the reduction process takes place, the aluminum sinks to the bottom of the pot while the oxygen gas rises to the surface to be drawn off. A carbon anode is dipped into the aluminum fluoride to complete the electrical connection. Carbon from the anode will combine with some of the oxygen to form carbon dioxide. Carbon is therefor lost during the process.

There is no significant carbon in Mars soil, so it must be made from CO2. (The scientists who analyzed Sojourner's results were arguing about carbon last I talked to them, one says less than 0.3% while the other says less than 0.8%, but either way it is low.) The CO2 off-gassed from creating aluminum might as well be captured and broken-down into oxygen and carbon. That would create a new anode for the aluminum smelting tank.

Carbon can be made with a Bosch reactor. I'm sure everyone in the Mars Society is familiar with the Reverse Water Gas Shift: CO2 + H2 -> H2O + CO
The Bosch reactor takes this a step further: CO + H2 -> C + H2O
The net reaction produces heat: 2.3 kJ per gram of carbon produced at 650?C. The Bosch reaction is slow, but can be increased with a catalyst. Iron, cobalt and nickel catalyze the Bosch reaction; steel wool is usually used since it's cheap and has a large surface area. The catalyzed reaction operates between 400? and 600?C. However, it tends to get coated with carbide intermediates and oxides. The iron can be recycled, so it can be used as an industrial technique, but this means the process is not applicable for life support.

Carbon produced by the Bosch reaction is particulates, but that can be formed into graphite by baking it in an electric furnace above 2500?K (2227?C). It takes 4 to 5 weeks at 2800?C.

RobertDyck · 2003-12-04 19:40:36

No no no no no !!! Dear Robert (and I mean Dear Robert without irony), you misinterpret my post completely and misjudge my intentions.
I'm on record elsewhere at New Mars praising Bill for his intelligence and his cogent arguments in favour of his ideals.

I apologize. I misunderstood. I'm afraid sometimes I take things a little too seriously. It's good to chat like this with other Mars enthusiasts; the local chapter is a bit small. International news these last couple years have gotten me paranoid.

Today's news is over the US imigration department deporting a Canadian to Syria, where he was tortured. Canada has said that if the US feels there is something wrong with an individual traveling with a Canadian passport, then deport him to Canada. The US state department says they will continue to refuse to honour Canadian passports. Paul Martin has called this "unacceptable". Paul Martin will be sworn-in as Prime Minister in a few days.

RobertDyck · 2003-12-05 00:17:10

Sticking to technical issues, I'm surprised no one has "jumped down my throat" for above mistake. Caustic soda is an alkali, not an acid.

The materials we can extract from Mars soil are: iron, aluminum, titanium, glass, gypsum, concrete, and terra cotta for tiles. Concrete needs practically all the material in regolith, so it would have to be made separately. Gypsum and clay for bricks can be extracted in its own run. If iron is more difficult to extract than alumimum, then extract aluminum first.

Aluminum is not in the form of bauxite, it is microcline (KAlSi3O8) and feldspar. Plagioclase feldspar is a mixture of albite (NaAlSi3O8) and anorthite (CaAl2Si2O8); 10-30%/90-70% is bytownite, while 50-70%/50-30% is andesine. Microcline is orthoclase feldspar. Anorthite will dissolve in hydrochloric acid, while microcline and albite will dissolve in hydrofluoric acid. Microcline and albite have been reported to dissolve in hydrochloric acid as well, although more slowly, so let's stick to hydrochloric.

Dolomite decomposes in hydrochloric acid. The carbonate combines with hydrogen to form CO2 gas and water, the calcium and metals (Mg, Fe, Mn) combine with chlorine.

Gypsum will dissolve as well, but the others should remain. Muscovite was found; it's a form of mica and could contain some fluorine. We can only hope. But mica will not dissolve in hydrochloric acid. So that leaves us with acid containing: H+, K+, Na+, Ca++, Mg++, Fe++, Mn++, Cl-, SO4-, AlSi2O8-, Al2Si2O8--, OH-

That is a separation, but how do we further refine it?

Palomar · 2003-12-05 11:32:08

Caustic soda is an alkali, not an acid.

*What can caustic soda be used for? I thought of "baking soda" when I read this, but I suppose it's something completely different/unrelated.

Is caustic soda like lime/lyme (the stuff great-grandma used to put in her homemade soap)?

--Cindy

RobertDyck · 2003-12-05 14:34:02

Caustic soda is an alkali, not an acid.
*What can caustic soda be used for? I thought of "baking soda" when I read this, but I suppose it's something completely different/unrelated.
Is caustic soda like lime/lyme (the stuff great-grandma used to put in her homemade soap)?

Caustic soda has the chemical formula NaOH, it's also known as sodium hydroxide. It is used for various industrial applications. Sodium carbonate (Na2CO3) is washing soda. Sodium bicarbonate (NaHCO3) is baking soda. Lime is calcium oxide (CaO); it's highly alkali. Lime will combine with animal fat to form soap, but the proportions are tricky.

Bill White · 2003-12-05 17:54:36

Sticking to technical issues, I'm surprised no one has "jumped down my throat" for above mistake. Caustic soda is an alkali, not an acid.

Robert, I for one have a BA in American History (and, I very much hesitate to admit this) a law degree. I took one year of BioSci in college having gotten AP credit for my high school chemistry.

Frankly, I never noticed your error.

Anyway - thank you for your support.

= = =

Shaun Barrett, I never took offense from your post. Your other comments embarass me, they are so very flattering.

As for my politics, I belong to the party of Mort Sahl.

Critical of Dubya? Absolutely. Yet like Mort Sahl, I would hope I could skewer the more ridiculous of the liberal left as well. But why kick folks when they are down?

Mort Sahl has been a devastating critic of the Republicans, yet when invited to Democratic events, he manages to criticize them rather effectively as well.

I simply love the following quote:

"Liberals feel unworthy of their possessions. Conservatives feel they deserve everything they've stolen."

and this

"There were four million people in the Colonies and we had Jefferson and Franklin. Now we have over 200 million and the two top guys are Clinton and Dole. What can you draw from this? Darwin was wrong!"

Shaun Barrett · 2003-12-06 01:30:05

A LAW DEGREE !!
Bill ... you have a LAW DEGREE !

That does it! I retract all compliments you low-down, blood-sucking, scrape-it-off-yer-shoe excuse for an amoebic-dysentery-causing intestinal parasite!
:angry:

[Disclaimer:-
The above description should in no way be interpreted as representing the views or beliefs of Shaun Barrett. Any resemblance between any human being, alive or dead, and the damnable pond-scum described, is entirely coincidental.]
:laugh:

P.S. I have nothing at all against #@%*!#* lawyers!!! ...
.. O.K.?!!

RobertDyck · 2003-12-06 08:54:21

Getting back to technical stuff, am I right that feldspar and gypsum will dissolve in hydrochloric acid while clay, mica, olivine, serpentine, augite, bronzite, and obsidian will not? Am I right that the dissolved minerals are ionic? If so, how do we precipitate out the metals separately? The method to make a printed circuit board back in the 1980's was to take a fibreglass board coated in copper on both sides, cover the copper you want to keep using a photographic process, then immerse the board in ferric chloride. The exposed copper would dissolve, becoming cupric chloride, and iron would precipitate out as particles. You would then take the board out and wash it. When too much of the ferric chloride had become cupric chloride you would throw out the chemical. Obviously I'm against anything that can't be recycled, and that generated industrial chemical waste, but it demonstrates one way to get iron out of solution. Is there a way to precipitate out iron, magnesium, and manganese without precipitating potassium, sodium, or calcium? This would be one way to extract ferrous metals from dolomite. If we precipitated the rest to recycle the hydrochloric acid we would have pure feldspar and gypsum. Could we precipitate feldspar and gypsum separately?

Ideally, before precipitating out feldspar would use another chemical step to break-up the aluminum silicate ion into alumina and glass. Any idea how to do that?

Rxke · 2003-12-06 09:46:59

only prepicitate Fe Mg Mn... I think it's possible when you use 'chelaat vormers' (that is dutch) i'll try to look it up to find the English term...

(Be back inna minute)

Rxke · 2003-12-06 10:03:54

*Can't find it...*

Best known Chelate is EDTA :ethyl(ene?) diamin(d?)e tetra acetic acid (or something liket that, again: this is last year's knowledge, ie: largely forgotten...esp. if i have to translate it to English...)

You have several 'lenghts' of these thingies, the all react to different metals, Cu, Fe, (those i am sure of...) by creating rings. The process is reversible, 'just' change pH in aquatic environment.

We use it to remove rust-stains etc out of paper. (conservation student)
It 'leaves the paper alone' ie quite specific itnteration but it's also used for 'titering' (???) 'titration' (???) errr... (concentration measurements-stuff in chemistry) Sorry for my lack of English tech words...

Downside: this is possibly forbiddingly expensive...

(Edited: the more i think about it, the more i'm getting convinced i'm talking total nonsense... I'm afraid i'm mixing things up...)

RobertDyck · 2003-12-06 10:50:49

I did find "chelate", "chelation" and "chelated compounds" on the web. I also found Ethylene Diamin Tetra Acetic Acid. Interesting. And you did translate "titration" correctly, that is a technique I used in high school chemistry. Your English is much better than my Dutch; I don't speak a word of it. I did take conversational French beginner level 1, and have learned a few words and phrases in other languages. You are doing great.

Rxke · 2003-12-06 11:37:25

thank you for the complement. (Edit: COMPLIMENT!! Aaaaargh!)
It's just that i always start doubting translating chemical stuff... it's difficult enough in my native language (where you often find 'ancient' terminology, mixed with modern and english names, you get the picture)

Found some scribbled notes (heh)
Chelation: making (organic) complexes with metallic IONS (kations, cations?) but it's fairly 'agressive' so possible to 'rip' metal ions out of their oxide-state-bond (i guess, otherwise it'd be useless for what we (conservators) use it for... we actually 'bind' reactive 'rust' into chelates so it becomes harmless.)

regulating Ph changes the chelation process, so in theory you'd be able to chelate (=bind) the stuff, afterwards extract (rinse?) the 'metal-loaded' chelates, change pH again so they 'shed' their metallic ions... and recycle...

I'm really, really wildly speculating, extrapolating from the little i know about it... Might be totally wrong. And i used laymans terms because i don't know the translation otherwize
I hope it's a little bit understandable!

Edit: googled it myself, looks like its primary use is in medical tratment (so it won't be cheap :;): )
But maybe this one is interesting: sequestration of *a lot* of metals:(sorry google cache, bad habit)

RobertDyck · 2003-12-06 15:47:33

I just talked to my chemist friend again. He first suggested finding deposits of traditional ores, like on Earth. But I don't think we can count on travelling thousands of kilometres to mine just a deposit of crystalline hematite for iron, or bauxite for aluminum. Beside, bauxite is formed on Earth by tropical trees depleting the soil of all other elements, leaving aluminum. We don't have tropical rain forests on Mars.

However, he also mentioned that the aluminum in feldspar is probably a positive ion (Al+++), with the silicate being strongly negative. I tried to verify this and found my original belief was correct: aluminosilicate is a single ion. He suggested extracting metal ions from solution by forming insoluble salts, one metal at a time. He thought such a process would be energy intensive, so we would have to be careful about energy conservation. The other problem he mentioned is that clay might break down in the presence of strong hydrochloric acid. I suppose olivine will break down; (Mg,Fe)2SiO4 would break down into Mg++, Fe++, and SiO4---- ions. If the olivine is forsterite then all of the metal is Mg and none Fe. That just leaves us with more metal and glass. I wonder if the SiO4---- would break down into SiO2 and O2 in the presence of hydrochloric acid. Or would the O2 bind with metal ions to form oxides?

Rxke · 2003-12-07 11:24:48

Phew. Robert, i'm getting more confused by the day...

can't follow any of this, i'm afraid, still thinking about your melting-> glass problem... The original quote in this thread: "... the carbonyl process requires metalic iron as its starting point; iron in regolith is an oxide. That still requires smelting to reduce it, and smelting temperature will convert regolith into slag. "

The slag being glass, essentially... with metallic impurities.
So back to square one.
Solution maybe: "water-glass" or natronglass?

Quartz (SiO2), being an acidforming oxide, can react with base (, alkali?)forming oxides ...

If yuo heat the 'SiO2-and-other-stuff-mess' (the slag) with Na or K hydroxide you get soluble(!) Na or K silicate. (You can substitute the hydroxides with carbonates...)

This is how it goes:

Through heaating, carbonates and hydroxides decompose, giving you an alkali-oxide (sp?)

Na2CO3->Na2O+CO2
or
2NaOH->Na2o+H2O

(water and carb diox evaporate away)

So: SiO2+Na2O ->Na2SiO3

This is the commercial 'natronwaterglass' (dunno if that's english) K variant is the more expensivee kaliwaterglass....

In this glass, a lot of Si-O bonds are broken, and get not 'restored' after cooling...

And now for the good part:

Metal-ions find a place between the tetraedric Si lattices, breaking it .

so this glass is a ionbonding-based 'construction,' not strong, and can be dissolved in water under pressure!

I guess, electrolyzing the metals in this solution is the next step

It also reacts with CO2: n*H2o+SiO3(2e-)+CO2

--> SiO2.n*H2O+CO3(2e-)

it forms a gel. it is used to waterproof bricks! the gel pushes out H2o, preventing cracking of the bricks during freezing.

... and if you add HCl you get the 'silica-gel' used to keep your fancy hi-tech stuff dry!

(ok, enough, i'm probably wasting your time)

RobertDyck · 2003-12-08 20:06:01

Reprocessing slag...good idea.

When you dissolve a compound, typically a polar compound will dissolve into a polar solution, or an ionic compound will dissolve into an ionic solution. The question is whether the compound stays as a single molecule with a positive charge at one end and negative at the other, which would be polar, or whether it breaks into two or more small molecules that have charge. Sometimes a solid is just a bunch of very small molecules that hold onto each other by strong static electricity, the simplest example is salt: Na+ and Cl-. Water is a weak solvent but it is the only universal solvent. That is because it is both ionic and polar; some of its molecules will break into H+ and OH- ions, while other molecules will remain intact with both hydrogen atoms on one side of the oxygen, creating positive poles at the hydrogen atoms and a negative spot on the oxygen opposite the hydrogen.

Hydrochloric acid will break into H+ and Cl- ions, creating a lot of ions in water so it will dissolve ionic compounds quickly. Perhaps aluminosilicate is too hard to break, we should leave it for bricks and tiles. We might be able to get something out of muscovite, though. Its formula is KAl2(Si3Al)O10(OH,F)2 which means it has an aluminosilicate ion (Si3Al plus oxygen) but how are the other two aluminum atoms bound? Are they ionic? If so we could get them out by acid treatment. If there is any fluorine there, it is definately something we want.

dickbill · 2003-12-09 13:17:37

I just talked to my chemist friend again. He first suggested finding deposits of traditional ores, like on Earth. But I don't think we can count on travelling thousands of kilometres to mine just a deposit of crystalline hematite for iron, or bauxite for aluminum.

That's an important point. Practicallity matters sometimes more than theories:

Example is the Perfluorocarbon factories needed to synthetise the few billions of tons necessary to ignite a global warming chain reactions. Ok, there are plenty of Carbon in the air, OK there is plenty of fluoride on Mars, and sulfur too (PFC compounded with sulfur are also very gound green housing gas).
But how realistic is the idea to bring together these elements in small chemical reactors in significant amount for our purpose (millions of tons) ?
Even if rich beds of fluorite minerals are discovered, who gonna make the job to harvest them and bring the fluoride to the reactor ? a single man could probably harvest several tons a day, well great, then we need thousands of workers. Foraging robots would be the other solution, but thousands would be needed too. The consequence is that terrforming that way is not for tomorow...

Maybe genetically engineered microorganisms could eat on fluoride and produce PFC as a metabolic byproduct, but so far, I found nothing in the litterature which encourrage to think that it is possible. But I feel this is the way to go : nano+ biotechnology rather than gigantic chemical reactors.

SpaceNut · 2015-08-12 21:38:12

Happened onto this topic when doing a search on the forum for Solar chimney and started to read the posts of which it was heat recapture in the chimney to enhance its performance.

Have fixed the shifting screen issues for the posts with just the post from Josh that has the old coding methods still in it.

The topic quickly morp'd into the chemistry of Mars and insitu useage of what was known at the time.

New Mars Forums

Announcement

#1 2003-11-28 22:13:41

Re: Question on the iron carbonyl process - Has the iron oxide issue been settled?

#2 2003-12-01 18:55:15

Re: Question on the iron carbonyl process - Has the iron oxide issue been settled?

#3 2003-12-01 19:48:52

Re: Question on the iron carbonyl process - Has the iron oxide issue been settled?

#4 2003-12-04 09:04:32

Re: Question on the iron carbonyl process - Has the iron oxide issue been settled?

#5 2003-12-04 09:14:00

Re: Question on the iron carbonyl process - Has the iron oxide issue been settled?

#6 2003-12-04 12:53:49

Re: Question on the iron carbonyl process - Has the iron oxide issue been settled?

#7 2003-12-04 19:01:42

Re: Question on the iron carbonyl process - Has the iron oxide issue been settled?

#8 2003-12-04 19:22:18

Re: Question on the iron carbonyl process - Has the iron oxide issue been settled?

#9 2003-12-04 19:40:36

Re: Question on the iron carbonyl process - Has the iron oxide issue been settled?

#10 2003-12-05 00:17:10

Re: Question on the iron carbonyl process - Has the iron oxide issue been settled?

#11 2003-12-05 11:32:08

Re: Question on the iron carbonyl process - Has the iron oxide issue been settled?

#12 2003-12-05 14:34:02

Re: Question on the iron carbonyl process - Has the iron oxide issue been settled?

#13 2003-12-05 17:54:36

Re: Question on the iron carbonyl process - Has the iron oxide issue been settled?

#14 2003-12-06 01:30:05

Re: Question on the iron carbonyl process - Has the iron oxide issue been settled?

#15 2003-12-06 08:54:21

Re: Question on the iron carbonyl process - Has the iron oxide issue been settled?

#16 2003-12-06 09:46:59

Re: Question on the iron carbonyl process - Has the iron oxide issue been settled?

#17 2003-12-06 10:03:54

Re: Question on the iron carbonyl process - Has the iron oxide issue been settled?

#18 2003-12-06 10:50:49

Re: Question on the iron carbonyl process - Has the iron oxide issue been settled?

#19 2003-12-06 11:37:25

Re: Question on the iron carbonyl process - Has the iron oxide issue been settled?

#20 2003-12-06 15:47:33

Re: Question on the iron carbonyl process - Has the iron oxide issue been settled?

#21 2003-12-07 11:24:48

Re: Question on the iron carbonyl process - Has the iron oxide issue been settled?

#22 2003-12-08 20:06:01

Re: Question on the iron carbonyl process - Has the iron oxide issue been settled?

#23 2003-12-09 13:17:37

Re: Question on the iron carbonyl process - Has the iron oxide issue been settled?

#24 2015-08-12 21:38:12

Re: Question on the iron carbonyl process - Has the iron oxide issue been settled?

Board footer