Who Governs Mars? - Corporate Warlords vs. Commonwealth

srmeaney · 2005-04-02 03:57:03

Space Commonwealth Criminal Database

Criminal: Ian Flint
Crime: Treason (Defaulted on Financial responsibilities)
Penalty: Stripped of Commonwealth Citizenship, Expelled from Civilization (deported to Lunar Colony)

Criminal: Leifur
Crime: Treason (Attempted to take away the right of others to Govern themselves)
Penalty: Stripped of Commonwealth Citizenship, Expelled from Civilization (deported to Lunar Colony)

Criminal: Space Commander
Crime: Treason (Terrorism, Multiple Murderer, Hijacking Spacecraft)
Penalty: Not a citizen (own country disowned him), Expelled from Civilization (deported to Lunar Colony)

Here we have three very different criminals. Yet they would all be guilty of Treason. :bars:

Leifur · 2005-04-02 04:42:59

Sr. Mean-ey, you are executing people here left and right, I think I would not like to participate in a commonwealth of your envisioning and or control. And I would certeinly not loan any money to it, as it is not good enough investment, although I do not doupt that space will give me plenty of profitable investment possibilities in the future, just not under your commonwealth.

2. Your still projecting your own concepts of Government on to how a Space Commonwealth will work. The Citizens of the Commonwealth would Govern themselves. Freedom of the Individual.

You talk about the freedom of the individual, but you seem to exclude the main rights of the individual so he can be called free, the basic right to own property and the ownership right, of himself and his body and the work of his hands and fruit of his labor. Nobody can touch you, not even an all powerful commonwealth if you are free enough to own your own body and you do not violate any one else´s rigth to his own body (that is commit a crime against him), remember there are no victimless crimes in a completely free society.

So your commonwealth is anything but free, sending people to a moon prison colony for uttering another understanding of how best to promote a space colonisation than your dear commonwealth, thank God I am not part of it in reality. Have you read The Moon Is a Harsh Mistress by Robert A. Heinlein? Like there, your prison colony will eventually revolt and secede, as it will have aquired the right to do that because of unjust treatment and as a separate culture and society.

Like my country seceeded from Denmark, you have to have a little more than just the will to secede, like the cultural right (as a separate nation with separate culture, language and preferable a history of independence, specially if that independence has been stamped upon or the right of the nation violated, like was the case with Iceland), it is not a clarification of a free society the possibility to seceede from it, like Flint declared, there must be other additional things, wich a prison colony of such unjust treatment like Sr. Mean-ey is promoting sure will eventually have.

Contracts will include the education of Potential Citizens at the expense of the Commonwealth. If you are unable to pass the educational requirements to become a colonist, You still come away with an education that is currently unavailable to 90% of the Earth's Population.

This has begun to sound like a socialist utopia more and more, solving all of worlds problems just by pouring money into it, who is going to pay for this all? Not me, as I will not put my savings into threat by loaning it to such a project with unclear and untrustworthy returns, and I surely doupt any one else that owns money will endanger it in such a way.

So my question, if you believe so strongly in the fundamental value of this Common Wealth system, why wouldn't you let it compete in a market of other ideas (read: systems of government) on mars, to flourish or wither, as time and experience dictate? You create a monopoly system whereby the Common Wealth is the only legitimate idea and system of government, that is stagnant at birth, since it has no reason to improve upon itself.

Well put, I can agree to this statement clark and make it mine, please answer this question of ours Sr. Mean-ey...

No. Just people who realize that disruptive and dangerous idiots must be isolated from the rest.
...
Whether you want it or not, Commonwealth is it. If you want to go to Mars colony or live on one of the Commonwealth Space stations, you must realize that Money isn't going to buy your way in. The Commonwealth economy is based on people who contribute skills and ideas and work. If you dont qualify, you don't go into space.

This sounds more and more as a dictatorship, who is going to perform this ,,realization"? Will those individuals judged as such not have any rights themselves, to have their own ,,dangerous" in your opinion views, or expressing them freely, or even think them? Who will judge what is ,,dangerous" or who?

The commonwealths idea basic flaw is though not its apparent form of coercion, government beurocratic foundation, lack of individual rights and freedom but its utter lack of economic viability. When something else than the market is going to judge the value of someones skills, ideas and work like it seems you are promoting, then an economy based upon such absurd value measurement is eventually going to collapse, as such judgement can newer be true to the true value and thus burden in such a system of people of less value than they are judged to be on those that have more value than given credit for is eventually become to great for the society and its economy to support itself.

... an attack on the right of other citizens to freedom from religion, exploitation, slavery, poverty, government by others, and inequality as citizens of a new Commonwealth;

What about freedom to religion? Or freedom of free agreements/contracts between individuals, that is the freedom to sell your skills, work and service? What about freedom to ownership and not having to give up your property to others unvillingly? What about freedom to fullfill your full potential, and strive above mediocracy? When I see your list of so called rights, with the exception of freedom from government by others, I am at last assured that you are burdened with inconsistent socialistic vision contrary to all of my values of individualistic freedom, right of tradition and respect for property.

srmeaney · 2005-04-02 05:14:24

Sr. Mean-ey, you are executing people here left and right, I think I would not like to participate in a commonwealth of your envisioning and or control. And I would certeinly not loan any money to it, as it is not good enough investment, although I do not doupt that space will give me plenty of profitable investment possibilities in the future, just not under your commonwealth.

-Leifur

I am executing no one. By your own Actions you have violated the rights of other Space Commonwealth Citizens to freedom from You. Your own actions got you expelled. They see the benifits of working together to pay off the National Debt so that one day their decendents can say "Hey! We have the right to be on Mars. We have a right to an equal share. We built it. We did it ethically. We did it without killing anyone for their share. We have the right to deny access to it to those who did not."

Grypd · 2005-04-02 05:59:42

Im sorry srmeaney but this Commonwealth of yours is anything but. Your description is of a state that owns everything including the people that are coerced into it and certain basic rights are simply refused. If you stand up to it your are imprisoned in a lunar hell hole and or simply attacked by military forces. It frankly sounds like a Feudilistic Oligarchy where the leaders own the population as slaves or more closely Techno SERFS.

I would not ever join such an evil empire nor would I let it be created and frankly nor would my country. We would like many countries join together to destroy such an organisation and as this would happen very early in its makeup we would win.

Criminal : Srmeaney
Crime : Concerned in Slavery, Murder, Treason, War Crimes, Genocide
Sentence: Life Imprisonment imposed by world tribunal for war crimes

srmeaney · 2005-04-02 06:11:13

Someone else who didn't qualify for citizenship in the Space Commonwealth. I suppose you were with Cobra Commander when he hijacked a ship.

Ps. It isn't countries that get invited to join. It's People who want to live off world. The only way a nation would wind up Commonwealth Territory would be if every last citizen voted yes.

Property is communal. If you respect property, you must acknowledge the right of every Space Commonwealth Citizen to an equal share. Government is also Communal. Everyone has the responsibility of Governing themselves and working towards a single goal. A self Sustainable Mars that will be theirs. Anyone who attacks the rights and responsibilites of Citizenship is Unwelcome.

So, a thousand years later, when your decendents have attempted to build a Monarcy, They will be stripped of their Citizenship and deported for having violated the rights of others to freedom from government by a few or one.

Grypd · 2005-04-02 06:56:06

I suspect that what CobraCommander did was to simply take a hostile nations vessel. This is perfectly reasonable thing to do. If he was also to get a letter of marque and use that vessel against the commonwealth again a perfectly legal thing to do..why

According to the declaration of Paris many countries declared they would no longer use letters of Marque and reprisal. The USA was not a signitory but it did sign up to the London naval treaty that also stopped there use on the Earths oceans.

But as stated space is not an Ocean and the USA may fairly do this, to the Commonwealths detriment.

Add that the Commonwealth is a slave transporter and maker and it becomes every countries duty to stop and sieze there vessels and in what is a police action take over by force if necassary the illegal settlements and structures that form the Commonwealth.

srmeaney · 2005-04-02 07:36:51

So, You are advocating state sponsored terrorism? That is exactly what a letter of marque was.

Commonwealth Security Files

Individual: Grypd
Status: Non Citizen
Category: Advocates acts of State Sponsored Terrorism against the Space Commonwealth. Currently No real threat. Probably be manipulated by others into criminal activity.
Action: Deny access to Space Commonwealth Territories.

Martian Republic · 2005-04-02 09:29:15

Gee, it a space war!

Srmeaney and his Commonwealth Empire agains every other country on Earth.

Larry,

Palomar · 2005-04-02 09:53:46

*Has someone here been reading too many comic books? ???

:laugh:

--Cindy

srmeaney · 2005-04-02 10:13:09

The wolves have come out to play!

You know very well that no nation in existance can pull together the resources that a Space Commonwealth could achieve. Not even the USA. Nor will the Earth nations be able to get the help they will need from others to achieve it.

So insult me all you want. You know I am right. That truth will be proven in the centuries to come when the Human race, unwilling to take a chance, begins feeding on itself.

ps. I havn't read a comic in six months.

srmeaney · 2005-04-02 10:23:46

The idea you have begun waving as the banner of your crusade is "Why go to the expense of colonizing Space when you can kill six billion humans and Rule what's left of the Earth!"

srmeaney · 2005-04-02 11:57:59

http://www.time.com/time/world/article/ … .html]time article

This is what you will be looking at with attempts to establish government over the right of others to govern themselves.
With a Space Commonwealth, you wouldn't need 2/3 majority to do what you want, You would need 100% approval.

Grypd · 2005-04-02 17:23:42

That is the problem the commonwealth is so hateful that it considers everyone who works or has been transported by it as property and as such as serfs.

Needless to say the rest of the world will treat the Commenwealth as a really evil organisation and as such one to be destroyed. You count me as a non citizen I take this as a recomendation especially to the Evil the Commenwealth espouses.

So we will break such a creation for we are sensible and you may call me a terrorist but Im only doing what the rest of the world espouses and if I have a letter of Marque let the commonwealth beware..........

srmeaney · 2005-04-02 21:29:16

You hear only what you want to hear.

The Commonwealth will be freedom compared to any earthly dictatorship you can offer up as democracy.

Even the A.C. Clarke is a rip of someone elses commentary.

The standard Civil service response to Crisis
1. Nothing is going to happen.
2. Something may be going to happen, but we should do nothing about it.
3. Maybe we should do something, but there is nothing we can do.
4. Maybe there was something we could have done, but it is too late now.

srmeaney · 2005-04-03 03:43:20

If you want an alternate type of government, perhaps this is more to your capitalist desires:

The Citizens of Tasmania are deemed to own the Mineral rights to Mars. That's five million billion dollars per citizen held as individual shareholdings. Let the buying and selling of Mars begin.

Leifur · 2005-04-03 11:03:46

The Citizens of Tasmania are deemed to own the Mineral rights to Mars. That's five million billion dollars per citizen held as individual shareholdings. Let the buying and selling of Mars begin.

That is more like it, although I do not understand why the people of Tasmania of all places should own it, and in fact would that be difficult in practise because how do you draw the line between a tasmanian and an Australian?

Better to have the inhabitants of various areas on Mars own that particular spot. Actually I once read an article promoting the idea that Mars should be the ultimate prise, that is, whoewer manages to go there first, he should own it. That would of course clarify all legal matters of who owns what, as that particular person, companie or whoewer will start to sell pieces of it to others.

I would rather have it more like the settlement of my country Iceland, or of the US of A in the old days, that people would declare themselfs a portion of the unused land and aquire ownership of it by using it and thus increasing its worth and capital. Here is an interesting article on what should be done to promote space faring and settlement in various space bodies by using capitalism and property rights:

http://www.cato.org/pubs/wtpapers/98081 … tml]Martan law

srmeaney · 2005-04-03 22:33:56

I've just had an Idea for funding the Move into Space.

If every one on this planet is an equal shareholder in the Mineral rights of Mars and each Share is about fifty million billion, let's start buying and selling those rights in the Stock Market. With that sort of wealth I could fund my own space station.

clark · 2005-04-04 07:37:55

I have an idea, I'll sell you my rights to my Mars Share srmeaney!

I'll sell it for 50 bucks, a bargain price given your estimate.

Then, when you start your commonwealth, I'll apply, and have equal ownership over all of Mars! Plus fifty bucks, which I will of course invest in a company that builds transport rockets to Mars, which should split several times over by the tiume your million colonists arrive, making me filthy rich, so when I am invariably exiled to the lunar prision for saying "Hi" and it being interpreted as an act of treason (saying hello is obviously an infrignement upon others freedom to be free from the sound of my voice), I can wallow in luxury.

I speak for the CommonWealth of Free Peoples Exiled Martian Liberation Front, not the FreePeoples CommonWealth of Martian Exiles Liberation Front- they are traitors, and should be exiled to the lunar prisons, swine!

BWhite · 2005-04-04 08:27:51

I've just had an Idea for funding the Move into Space.
If every one on this planet is an equal shareholder in the Mineral rights of Mars and each Share is about fifty million billion, let's start buying and selling those rights in the Stock Market. With that sort of wealth I could fund my own space station.

This idea would work, of course, but only if we first had a world government that most of us 7 billion humans deemed legitimate.

I won't hold my breath.

= = =

Read about the Treaty of Tordesillas. The Pope gave half of the New World to Spain and half to Portugal. Which was fine and dandy until the French and English and Dutch disputed the Pope's authority to make that grant.

= = =

Who will have the authority to write the property laws for celestial mining rights will be the great political battleground of the next few centuries.

'Tis a pity I will not likely survive to watch the real fireworks many, many decades from now as humans dispute who owns what, out there. But its going to make a great and tragic story.

Edited By BWhite on 1112625053

clark · 2005-04-04 08:40:23

'Tis a pity I will not likely survive to watch the real fireworks many, many decades from now as humans dispute who owns what, out there. But its going to make a great and tragic story.

If history is any guide, the humans who dispute who owns what out there, the price will be paid by those who live down here.

Sounds like Bill is speaking for the Liberation Front of Martain Exiles Free People CommonWealth. We hate them, they are traitors, swine!

Martian Republic · 2005-04-04 09:24:43

I've just had an Idea for funding the Move into Space.
If every one on this planet is an equal shareholder in the Mineral rights of Mars and each Share is about fifty million billion, let's start buying and selling those rights in the Stock Market. With that sort of wealth I could fund my own space station.

The French tried that same stunt in the Mississippi Valley and it didn't work there either. All they did was jack up the price of land in the Mississippi Valley so if anybody what wanting to develop it, the land would have been too expensive to buy and settle on. When the price get up to the point you have to pay a million dollars an acre for a piece of Mars, that will have a tendency to scare away investors from going to Mars. And this will be before tens of billions to hundreds of billions of dollars worth of improvement to Mars to make it habitable for human life in biosphere’s and such and the billions more for shuttle on both end and the Deep space space ship to carry people to Mars.

Larry,

BWhite · 2005-04-04 09:55:06

'Tis a pity I will not likely survive to watch the real fireworks many, many decades from now as humans dispute who owns what, out there. But its going to make a great and tragic story.
If history is any guide, the humans who dispute who owns what out there, the price will be paid by those who live down here.
Sounds like Bill is speaking for the Liberation Front of Martain Exiles Free People CommonWealth. We hate them, they are traitors, swine!

Actually, I belong to a secret society, of one. Ooops. I let loose of the secret. Time to expel myself.

Leifur · 2005-04-04 11:33:08

I actually beliewe this latest idea by Sr. Mean-ey as rather interesting. You see, when someone has bought up a great portion of land of Mars from the people, he will have added incentive to promote space travelling technology and terraforming and exoterestrial colonisation technology to get some returns for his initial investment. Most likely someone that is allready in that genre will start buying up shares of Mars to get better and save revenues for his inital investment in space faring technology.

But space faring investment depends hugely on one thing, continuing growth of human, but that has in fact gone into recess in way to many countries, due to social engineering of feminism and socialdemocratism. We need more resources, and the human resource is the ultimate resource, the best investment of them all. Growing population will need more land, so the worth of property on Mars will grow, thus creating incentives for initial investment in Martian settlement. The Earth can supply enough of people for us to grow much more than we are today, but we should not just be fixeted on the Earth, we have also the Moon, Mars, hopefully Venus one day and even beyond.

BWhite · 2005-04-04 12:22:51

I actually beliewe this latest idea by Sr. Mean-ey as rather interesting. You see, when someone has bought up a great portion of land of Mars from the people, he will have added incentive to promote space travelling technology and terraforming and exoterestrial colonisation technology to get some returns for his initial investment. Most likely someone that is allready in that genre will start buying up shares of Mars to get better and save revenues for his inital investment in space faring technology.
But space faring investment depends hugely on one thing, continuing growth of human, but that has in fact gone into recess in way to many countries, due to social engineering of feminism and socialdemocratism. We need more resources, and the human resource is the ultimate resource, the best investment of them all. Growing population will need more land, so the worth of property on Mars will grow, thus creating incentives for initial investment in Martian settlement. The Earth can supply enough of people for us to grow much more than we are today, but we should not just be fixeted on the Earth, we have also the Moon, Mars, hopefully Venus one day and even beyond.

Leifur, if one segment or subset of humanity saw things this same way. they could get to Mars first, make babies and then decline to share any of Mars with the rest of us.

President Bush says it not a race, but a journey. Yeah. Right!

Grypd · 2005-04-04 13:02:21

But for that to happen Bill it would require a population on Mars counted in the minimum of millions. For that to happen a nation would need a really tremendous space transportation system a decent amount of space knowledge and a lot of political and financial will. It also would likely not be alone on the planet.

Still for a country to deny a whole planet to other nations it would need to be in control of a real majority of that planet. And it would have to be a very large majority too. Still there is the ability to control certain areas of the solar system that give a form of bottleneck situation and a real benefit to the nation that controls it.

But I really do not believe that any country will have the power to control Mars and to actually completely dominate space to that degree.

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Re: Who Governs Mars? - Corporate Warlords vs. Commonwealth

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