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#51 2005-03-24 11:13:39

srmeaney
Member
From: 18 tiwi gdns rd, TIWI NT 0810
Registered: 2005-03-18
Posts: 976

Re: Who Governs Mars? - Corporate Warlords vs. Commonwealth

Considering that you have subverted the Commonwealth and every kind of scum are comming in their thousands was it any surprise they established a monetary economy to keep the colony going?

Suddenly every thing is legal, even killing those who hijack space ships with plans to set up their own little barony.

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#52 2005-03-24 11:22:33

Cobra Commander
Member
From: The outskirts of Detroit.
Registered: 2002-04-09
Posts: 3,039

Re: Who Governs Mars? - Corporate Warlords vs. Commonwealth

Considering that you have subverted the Commonwealth and every kind of scum are comming in their thousands was it any surprise they established a monetary economy to keep the colony going?

That, and the need for a common medium of exchange.

Suddenly every thing is legal, even killing those who hijack space ships with plans to set up their own little barony.

Then isn't hijacking spaceships legal as well?   :;):

Baron Cobra hereby decrees the Commonwealth dead. Heed these words, or don't. Whatever suits you.


Build a man a fire and he's warm for a day. Set a man on fire and he's warm for the rest of his life.

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#53 2005-03-24 11:31:52

srmeaney
Member
From: 18 tiwi gdns rd, TIWI NT 0810
Registered: 2005-03-18
Posts: 976

Re: Who Governs Mars? - Corporate Warlords vs. Commonwealth

No it ain't. We simply abandoned the Olympus Mons Colony as a free city because it suits us to do so. The Commonwealth opens the colony to any and all. In fact we offer Prisoners a second chance at freedom and start shipping them in. The Commonwealth reasserts its right to Govern Movement through Space.

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#54 2005-03-24 11:46:17

srmeaney
Member
From: 18 tiwi gdns rd, TIWI NT 0810
Registered: 2005-03-18
Posts: 976

Re: Who Governs Mars? - Corporate Warlords vs. Commonwealth

After the Commonwealth folks pulled out of Mars colony, the Mafia established a gold coin mint for purposes of "a common medium of exchange". With a local economy, they declared the free city of Olympus a tax haven. The Earth corporations relocated to Mars. Earth economy collapsed becomming increasingly dependent on the Commonwealth contracts to build Space Stations for Commonwealth Citizens.

Mars accuses Earth of dumping criminals on Mars colony.

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#55 2005-03-24 17:14:18

Martian Republic
Member
From: Haltom City- Dallas/Fort Worth
Registered: 2004-06-13
Posts: 855

Re: Who Governs Mars? - Corporate Warlords vs. Commonwealth

After the Commonwealth folks pulled out of Mars colony, the Mafia established a gold coin mint for purposes of "a common medium of exchange". With a local economy, they declared the free city of Olympus a tax haven. The Earth corporations relocated to Mars. Earth economy collapsed becomming increasingly dependent on the Commonwealth contracts to build Space Stations for Commonwealth Citizens.

Mars accuses Earth of dumping criminals on Mars colony.

Right about here the men in the white coats come after srmeaney, because he is delusional. He thinks he a dictator of a great Space Empire. So these men in the white coats are after him.

But, don't worry!

srmeaney, has a name change and now he call's himself George Bush and such crazy thinking is acceptable and is: "OK"! Because, if your George Bush, you can think such crazy things and get away with it.

Larry,

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#56 2005-03-24 20:20:34

Cobra Commander
Member
From: The outskirts of Detroit.
Registered: 2002-04-09
Posts: 3,039

Re: Who Governs Mars? - Corporate Warlords vs. Commonwealth

roll


Build a man a fire and he's warm for a day. Set a man on fire and he's warm for the rest of his life.

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#57 2005-03-24 20:22:08

srmeaney
Member
From: 18 tiwi gdns rd, TIWI NT 0810
Registered: 2005-03-18
Posts: 976

Re: Who Governs Mars? - Corporate Warlords vs. Commonwealth

The Commonwealth City-state of Olympus Mons

1. Initial Commonwealth Colonization focus to the Crater of Olympus Mons. The early teams will assemble and drill the core of the Mountain for a Core Sample Survey guaging Material Hardness, Gas Pockets, The Geology and Possible Biology (if there are air and water pockets beneath the mountain, there may be life). The Crater then becomes a space port.

2. The next stage will be to dig access tunnels down through the Mountain. The primary focus to excavate the mountain and build an atmospheric pressure well all the way down through the lithosphere.

3. Within that Pressure well we build a city that will be the singular focus of the colonization and Terraforming of Mars. With a city focused on mining and materials processing (and increased hydroponic and aquaculture in the caves), we could bring the planetary population up to a million. Have all the materials processed and ready for expansion.

4. The City at Olympus Mons would be Governed by a completely new and Independent Government that has no ties to the Earth Civilizations. The Colonists who choose to stay will be citizens of that Government.

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#58 2005-03-24 21:03:25

srmeaney
Member
From: 18 tiwi gdns rd, TIWI NT 0810
Registered: 2005-03-18
Posts: 976

Re: Who Governs Mars? - Corporate Warlords vs. Commonwealth

1. Colonist Selection Criteria

The UN would require that this new Commonwealth reflect earth population ratios. Because the city would have a one million population limit the final figures would be:

Total Mars Imigration Population Limit=1,000,000
American (USA) Population intake=50,000
Chinese Population intake=166,666
Australian Population intake=3,333
Other Earth Population intake=790,000

"Fifty thousand crowded into the only Shopping mall on Mars just to stand in the cue at McDonalds."

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#59 2005-03-25 12:50:50

BWhite
Member
From: Chicago, Illinois
Registered: 2004-06-16
Posts: 2,635

Re: Who Governs Mars? - Corporate Warlords vs. Commonwealth

1. Colonist Selection Criteria

The UN would require that this new Commonwealth reflect earth population ratios. Because the city would have a one million population limit the final figures would be:

Total Mars Imigration Population Limit=1,000,000
American (USA) Population intake=50,000
Chinese Population intake=166,666
Australian Population intake=3,333
Other Earth Population intake=790,000

"Fifty thousand crowded into the only Shopping mall on Mars just to stand in the cue at McDonalds."

The United Nations? Are you serious?


Give someone a sufficient why and they can endure just about any how

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#60 2005-03-25 18:09:45

srmeaney
Member
From: 18 tiwi gdns rd, TIWI NT 0810
Registered: 2005-03-18
Posts: 976

Re: Who Governs Mars? - Corporate Warlords vs. Commonwealth

Considering they (the U.N.) will be lending the Commonwealth the money to colonize space, I'd say that it will come with strings attatched, don't you?

So, unless the security council nations are planning to extend their little military dictatorship to controlling and governing other nations, I'd say you're going to be as much of a minority point of view in space as you are on earth.

or if you prefer the cowboy version:

"They have us surrounded Tonto!"
"Which us would that be?"

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#61 2005-03-26 17:22:50

Grypd
Member
From: Scotland, Europe
Registered: 2004-06-07
Posts: 1,872

Re: Who Governs Mars? - Corporate Warlords vs. Commonwealth

Considering they (the U.N.) will be lending the Commonwealth the money to colonize space, I'd say that it will come with strings attatched, don't you?

So, unless the security council nations are planning to extend their little military dictatorship to controlling and governing other nations, I'd say you're going to be as much of a minority point of view in space as you are on earth.

or if you prefer the cowboy version:

"They have us surrounded Tonto!"
"Which us would that be?"

You are assuming that we still have a UN in 20 years and the way things are going this is a very unlikely event.

But we may have some authority that does control Mars or the Moon. If it is something like a port Authority it can raise funds and issue contracts on its own to develop its area of authority. And as it is really just a development authority then it does not bring with it all the problems of citizenship issues. It has only one purpose and that is to develop the area of its concern it also has a set of strict quidelines that say what it is concerned with. And since it can raise its own funds and issue bonds it can get funds.

But for us to create an overgoverment that controls all outside the atmosphere im sorry to say it just will not happen. It certainly would not be voted in by people who would have to vote it in. And there is no one with the power to have it just imposed or even if it was it would simply be considered powerless.


Chan eil mi aig a bheil ùidh ann an gleidheadh an status quo; Tha mi airson cur às e.

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#62 2005-03-26 21:37:52

srmeaney
Member
From: 18 tiwi gdns rd, TIWI NT 0810
Registered: 2005-03-18
Posts: 976

Re: Who Governs Mars? - Corporate Warlords vs. Commonwealth

But for us to create an overgoverment that controls all outside the atmosphere im sorry to say it just will not happen. It certainly would not be voted in by people who would have to vote it in. And there is no one with the power to have it just imposed or even if it was it would simply be considered powerless.

if you are not a citizen of the Space government, who says you will have a say? And yes, it would be very much like a port authority. But it would be it's own Nation. A Commonwealth that takes orders from no other empire.

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#63 2005-03-27 08:22:53

Martian Republic
Member
From: Haltom City- Dallas/Fort Worth
Registered: 2004-06-13
Posts: 855

Re: Who Governs Mars? - Corporate Warlords vs. Commonwealth

But for us to create an overgoverment that controls all outside the atmosphere im sorry to say it just will not happen. It certainly would not be voted in by people who would have to vote it in. And there is no one with the power to have it just imposed or even if it was it would simply be considered powerless.

if you are not a citizen of the Space government, who says you will have a say? And yes, it would be very much like a port authority. But it would be it's own Nation. A Commonwealth that takes orders from no other empire.

Your Commonwealth Government go contrary to everybody that you would need to be apart of it to make it happen. It even goes contrary to the people that would be part of your Commonwealth in that they would have to agree to be slave for the purpose of setting up your Commonwealth Government. You are basically talking about setting up an Empire to rule space and eventually take over the world.

If the Earth Governments were setting up a colony on either or both the moon and Mars they would not set you up as a dictator to rule there colony.

It would take forty to sixty years to setup a colony of sufficient size, with agro-industrial mining capability that you would not be around anyway, when such a colony was setup.

Any such colony would only have control or authority over the section of the moon or Mars or asteroid that they controlled and not over all space, because there would be other countries with there colonies in space too. So your argument is a dead issue. If I were an American President and such a Commonwealth were setup by other countries, I would declare a national mission to build colonies or city on both the moon and Mars as a national mission to guarantee Americas National security from such a Commonwealth type Government.

For these reason and many more that I have not mentioned, your idea is ridiculous and pure fantasy, but will never see the light of day.

Larry,

srmeaney,

You use circle reasoning to argue or defend your position. You start out with a position based on nothing and then you hang it out there in nowhere, which is also an empy argument.

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#64 2005-03-27 11:37:13

srmeaney
Member
From: 18 tiwi gdns rd, TIWI NT 0810
Registered: 2005-03-18
Posts: 976

Re: Who Governs Mars? - Corporate Warlords vs. Commonwealth

if you are not a citizen of the Space government, who says you will have a say? And yes, it would be very much like a port authority. But it would be it's own Nation. A Commonwealth that takes orders from no other empire.

^This is my bit of the conversation.

If you found circular reasoning in this, then you see me being forced to repeat myself in the face of ignorace and fear.

The reason for Total Commonwealth Control of Space is this:

If a million go to Mars as citizens in a directed effort to mine out the Volcano of Olumpus Mons and Build a city within that Mountain then it is they who will be the inheritors of the outcome of terraforming Mars. As citizens who participated equally in it's making, it is their decendents who will have exclusive land rights over Mars. It will be their decendents who will walk the Martian soils freely and without taxation. They and they alone will have the right to equality, freedom and Self government. Not the representation of Democracy and the racism, poverty, slavery and inequality that not even Democracy can free us from, But the freedom of Self Governance. The right to keep what you have made and not surrender it to those who have contributed nothing.
The Commonwealth is simply a code of conduct. A government of all the people by all the people. A common flag by which all can leave the Earth and it's Nationalism behind. The idea of expelling and isolating criminals is that if you are incapable of being better than a human monster, you have no place amongst those who can.

That is why it must be funded and governed as a seperate nation free of the rest of humanity while striving for something better.

That is what Commonwealth promises. It is surprising that it instills a certain paranoid response in people. They see only something they have been programmed to fear. Rather than the freedom and responsibility that it is.

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#65 2005-03-28 11:42:18

Leifur
Banned
From: Reykjavík, Iceland
Registered: 2004-12-15
Posts: 40
Website

Re: Who Governs Mars? - Corporate Warlords vs. Commonwealth

Smearney, I must admit, to my suprise, that I can agree with a lot from your newest post.

But how do we create the economic conditions for such a future, independent future, for Mars? You have talked about the government of Mars (or space) taking a massive loan to fund its investment, but I beliewe that to be a mistaken aproach. What the right aproach is, will of course be decided by the martians themselves, but if I had the right to vote on how to do it, I would opt for more laisser faire aproach, where individual entrepreunership could flourish.

If you, as another martian, wanted to hollow out Olympus moons as your place of settlement, you could by all means invest your money or what you have taken as a loan directly, or through the company you, and likeminded martians (and or future martians, that is ,,terrans" ready to invest in a future on Mars) have set up for this project.

I and my company, built mostly (and owned) of Icelandic, and or scandinavian people of my relatives and likeminded (religiously, politically, culturally and so forth) people with whom we have decided together to invest our future on Mars, have on the other hand decided to build a glass (with some future technology) dome over one of the valles marinas deep valleys as our future home.

We have aquired the funds (our own savings, loans and by selling shares) to do this on our own, and under the rules of such a future martian government we will acquire property rights over the site we have chosen (how those rules will be is something that must be decided upon, but be that something simple). Then we will increase our capital with selling access to it to future martians that want to come (we try to limit it to people that share our values, wich is our right, as this is our property) and increasing the worth of our settlement and the surrounding lands, wich we will thus gain property rights over. By increasing the worth of it I am mostly talking about terraforming projects so the land can be used for agriculture and other usage in the future.

The people of this society/community/company will agree upon our own laws, or better yeat, buy them on market, as all other things, including arbitration (judgement) policing and even the defenses of our property (and thus the property right). By having such completely market system for all aspects of society, even a government is not needed, except maybe as you point out to give the martians legitimacy and independence from other nations.

But its powers should be very limited, or non at all, as there will be many different kinds of people settling all over Mars, societies like I have descriped, societies like you want, and all kinds of other in between, and such a system will decrease the changes of infighting (there is no power to fight for) be that in democratic fights (and cultural wars) or with violence.


Leifur

Es. [url=http://www.newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=2776]Private creation and enforcement of law on Mars
Old-Icelandic/ Anarco-Capitalistic system on Mars[/url]

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#66 2005-03-29 00:00:21

srmeaney
Member
From: 18 tiwi gdns rd, TIWI NT 0810
Registered: 2005-03-18
Posts: 976

Re: Who Governs Mars? - Corporate Warlords vs. Commonwealth

What you are promoting is to send people to Mars, let them do the work and then establish a government colony dictated by an earth government. The problem is that the economic approach is wrong. You are restricting Going to those who can afford to send people. Only a few can go.

What I'm saying is that your Government has no say. By establishing a government over space, those who cant afford to go can go with a population that is representative of their national population on earth. That way the effort is commited to the singular task of colonizing a planet that has a single government rather than the overpowerful factions that represent a small minority of the world's population. Many can go.

The Commonwealth will have control over all of Space and every citizen of it is that government.

The only reason I'm getting hostile feedback is that certain people dream the dream of Empire. They see the numbers and are terrified at the prospect of  being out numbered by people who dont believe in the things they believe in. Even in a democracy that puts you in a powerless minority and that is all they see.

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#67 2005-03-29 00:25:59

srmeaney
Member
From: 18 tiwi gdns rd, TIWI NT 0810
Registered: 2005-03-18
Posts: 976

Re: Who Governs Mars? - Corporate Warlords vs. Commonwealth

Olympus Mons is apparently the size of Utah, I dont know how big that is. If its half the size of the Northern Territory, a potential city could be expanded to a population upward of  ten million colonists. All living inside a hollow mountain with an atmosphere that wont blow away in the next solar storm. A colony that pretty much produces what they all need. Paying back the debt was partially achieved through the issue of contracts of such wealth that unemployment could reach zero in even the most impoverished nations. That debt would still have to be paid back in the future anyway but it could be paid back in infrastructure and excess wealth produced by the colonies.

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#68 2005-03-29 10:33:28

Leifur
Banned
From: Reykjavík, Iceland
Registered: 2004-12-15
Posts: 40
Website

Re: Who Governs Mars? - Corporate Warlords vs. Commonwealth

What you are promoting is to send people to Mars, let them do the work and then establish a government colony dictated by an earth government.

I said exacly the opposite, that martians should be a free and independant society. Do you maybe regard foreign investment to be wrong and a form of dictations? Maybe it is some form of control, but it would certeinly not be government control, as there will mostly be individuals that will fund and go to Mars, looking for profit and better lives.

The problem is that the economic approach is wrong. You are restricting Going to those who can afford to send people. Only a few can go.

It is the only viable approach economically, of course going is restricted to those that can afford it, or have made an contract to someone that affords to send them. But it is certeinly, like some said here on this board recently, the most valuable resource in Mars, working hands, so they will be well paid, that is for sure. And of course only a few can go initially, but when the infrastructure of Mars gets better, more people can go, and that is what the first will have to wager on, that more will follow.

The worth of their work will increase with more people, so essentially the ones that come later have to pay those that came first for the infrastructure they put up and so on. But it will on the other hand be cheaper to go as it will be easier than have to bring everything with them like the first will have to. So the first will, if demand for land and thus essentially demand for going to Mars will continue to increase, the investment of those that will go first will pay off.

The only reason I'm getting hostile feedback is that certain people dream the dream of Empire. They see the numbers and are terrified at the prospect of  being out numbered by people who dont believe in the things they believe in. Even in a democracy that puts you in a powerless minority and that is all they see.

I have no empire dreams, at least not for my country, neither the EU, wich I hate, or the USofA or any other country, but if Mars will become a free society, then it is bound to become an empire, and it will led to good.

The issue of the powerless minority is settled if the law will be bound by and created by the market forces, so people can buy laws according to their beliews by buying the service of protection agengies that follow a set of laws they can agree with. It can also be settled adequitly by power distribution, so each society will have most of the control over their own things, but the other system will led to that also.

The other explanation for the hostile feedback is the impression I have of you sometimes at least is that you are a troll...are you? At least it is sometimes very hard to understand your reasoning, although I should not be talking, having such a bad grasp of English.


Leifur

Es. [url=http://www.newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=2776]Private creation and enforcement of law on Mars
Old-Icelandic/ Anarco-Capitalistic system on Mars[/url]

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#69 2005-03-29 11:57:53

srmeaney
Member
From: 18 tiwi gdns rd, TIWI NT 0810
Registered: 2005-03-18
Posts: 976

Re: Who Governs Mars? - Corporate Warlords vs. Commonwealth

Considering they would be signatory to a constitution and the only law: treason, an attack on the right of other citizens to freedom from religion, exploitation, slavery, poverty, government by others, and inequality as citizens of a new Commonwealth; It would be a little hard to convince the individual to surrender their rights to others who would be guilty of treason for doing so.
It would also be a crime if those around you allowed you to do it.

Criminal:      Leifur
Crime:         Treason
Penalties:    Loss of Commonwealth Citizenship.
                 Deportation to the Lunar Prison Colony.

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#70 2005-03-29 20:30:29

EarthWolf
Member
From: Missouri, U.S.A.
Registered: 2004-07-20
Posts: 59

Re: Who Governs Mars? - Corporate Warlords vs. Commonwealth

Hello,

Huzzah for Ecrasez and Cobra Commander. This Commonwealth idea seems to be another idealistic utopia gone dystopia, a lot like Communism and Plato's Ideal State in the Republic. Although to be honest, I doubt that the major powers on Earth would voluntarily submit to such overpowering dominance as suggested under this Commonwealth. Frankly, his Commonwealth idea requires a good deal of social organization and military/police powers to enforce the desires of the Commonwealth citizen.

That means government by some over others. Defeats one of his purposes. No offense, srmeaney, you might want to rethink the idea.

Cordially,

EarthWolf


" Man will not always stay on the Earth. "

Konstantin Tsiolkovsky

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#71 2005-03-29 21:49:51

srmeaney
Member
From: 18 tiwi gdns rd, TIWI NT 0810
Registered: 2005-03-18
Posts: 976

Re: Who Governs Mars? - Corporate Warlords vs. Commonwealth

No. Just people who realize that disruptive and dangerous idiots must be isolated from the rest.

The problem is you are unable to let go of your own Citizenship. You are Psychologicly dependent on the status quo and your own interpretation of that is yet to be formed.

Whether you want it or not, Commonwealth is it. If you want to go to Mars colony or live on one of the Commonwealth Space stations, you must realize that Money isn't going to buy your way in. The Commonwealth economy is based on people who contribute skills and ideas and work. If you dont qualify, you don't go into space.

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#72 2005-03-31 07:29:18

clark
Member
Registered: 2001-09-20
Posts: 6,345

Re: Who Governs Mars? - Corporate Warlords vs. Commonwealth

Excavating Mount Olympus?  :laugh:

You know, it is a volcano... but perhaps that explains a lot. The Common Wealth appears to be ruled by very forward looking individual(s?) hell bent on pasting Mother Earth.

I like the choices inherent in this system too. I can joing the Common Wealth, go to space, or not. Diametric choices of such opposing values are the basis of true choice, no? It's like elections in November, red or blue, or blue or red.

So what you are propsing Sr. Mean-ey, is to co-opt those who have a hankering to colonize space, make them submit to the only choice of Common Wealth government in order to realize their dream. If that dream is important enough, they will submit to the weird dictates of this rule in order to go off into space. This would be a bit akin to the Mars Society requiring membership to their organization to even talk about Mars (or else to the lunar pits with you, non-believer!)

So my question, if you believe so strongly in the fundamental value of this Common Wealth system, why wouldn't you let it compete in a market of other ideas (read: systems of government) on mars, to flourish or wither, as time and experience dictate? You create a monopoly system whereby the Common Wealth is the only legitimate idea and system of government, that is stagnant at birth, since it has no reason to improve upon itself.

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#73 2005-04-01 09:35:26

srmeaney
Member
From: 18 tiwi gdns rd, TIWI NT 0810
Registered: 2005-03-18
Posts: 976

Re: Who Governs Mars? - Corporate Warlords vs. Commonwealth

1. Mons Olympus is a dead Volcano (or rather that is what the first team is going to determine). With that much rock above ground as a result of the eruption, it will have become very stable.
It is that stability that the Survey team will test.

2. Your still projecting your own concepts of Government on to how a Space Commonwealth will work. The Citizens of the Commonwealth would Govern themselves. Freedom of the Individual. You can call that facist,or Communist or what ever you feel the need to call it so you no longer feel threatened by the freedom and equality it offers.
Contracts will include the education of Potential Citizens at the expense of the Commonwealth. If you are unable to pass the educational requirements to become a colonist, You still come away with an education that is currently unavailable to 90% of the Earth's Population.

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#74 2005-04-01 12:00:45

Ian Flint
Banned
From: Colorado
Registered: 2003-09-24
Posts: 437

Re: Who Governs Mars? - Corporate Warlords vs. Commonwealth

Do parts of the commonwealth have the freedom to secede?  If not, it is not a free society.

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#75 2005-04-02 03:26:18

srmeaney
Member
From: 18 tiwi gdns rd, TIWI NT 0810
Registered: 2005-03-18
Posts: 976

Re: Who Governs Mars? - Corporate Warlords vs. Commonwealth

If you as an individual feel the need to succeed with your share and pay off your share of the fifty million Billion a year it took to build the Space Commonwealth, then go right ahead.
I wouldn't reccomend walking out on the financial responsibilities to which you were signatory to in your application for citizenship though. The rest of the Citizens might get the idea that you are unworthy to be a Commonwealth Citizen and strip you of your Citizenship under charge of Treason. In which case, Its a one way trip to The Lunar prison colony.

That way you can explain to Cobra Commander (space vehicle hijacker) just what it was that qualified you for expulsion from civilization.

As to earthwolf: It's amazing how they refer to a civilization based on Ethics and personal responsibility as some sort of Utopian Fantasy land. You must be from one of those corrupt minority rule dictatorships where ethics is the brand on the drugs they push at night clubs. I live in one of those too.

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