You are President

Bill White · 2004-06-15 06:15:58

The gold standard might have merit IF we had one global currency and trading in gold was prohibited.

Otherwise, speculation and coordinated monetary attacks could be used to destory the economy of a target nation especially if the ability to de-couple currency from gold was a taboo tactic for the defense.

Stable money can only exist if there is a strong central government, a hegemon with exclusive power over the issuing of currency and the power to enforce the gold standard.

Basic Hobbes. A Leviathon.

Cobra Commander · 2004-06-15 06:58:01

Stable money can only exist if there is a strong central government, a hegemon with exclusive power over the issuing of currency and the power to enforce the gold standard.

You're right, if we're talking about the much vaunted 'gold standard' which we had in this country until the 1970's. It tied the value of the dollar to gold, but it wasn't a direct connection. What I'm suggesting is we mint physical gold coinage and US Treasury notes redeemable for gold on a one for one basis. The notes circulate as a convenient stand-in for the physical gold. Anyone can at any time exchange the notes for gold. If someone wants to they can use gold (or silver) for their daily transactions. The trade value of the notes would be equal to gold as they could be directly exchanged.

Unless the US government were on the verge of collapse, then people will be rushing to exchange the notes for physical gold, not really a problem if they're issued one for one. It's just a question of distribution rather than supply. If people can be made to understand that the note is not currency itself, but a redemption ceritificate for currency, it can work quite well.

Very strict standards would have to be set, however, or the actual physical gold and silver could be debased as was done in the Roman Empire. which brings us to the point.

Long after the fall of the Empire, the old Aureus and Denarius continued to be used as currency, even in the absence of a strong central government to regulate it. Gold is money by itself and has been almost since the dawn of human civilization. If our currency isn't just tied to gold, but interchangeable with gold, is gold, it will be stable.

Dook · 2004-06-15 08:27:54

It will not be stable. The gold supply would have to increase exactly with the rate of population increase so everyone would have access to the same amount of money/gold. Gold is not an inexhaustable supply, just like oil it's going to run out.

clark · 2004-06-15 08:30:02

The one eyed man speaks of rainbows in the valley of the blind.

My fellow compatriots, I bid thee to sit a moment, beneath the now full moon, underneath the rising red star that calls from afar. Aye, the Moon, and Mars, pale light on the night sky. A lovely dream that whispers on the wind, and slips into your sleep, bringing hope and desire to your slumber. Smell deep the summer dew, and this fancy, for it is as fleeting as youths first season of love.

As we sit beneath the stars in wonder, pointing, declaring in awe and in arrogance our intent to one day touch those distant shores, we dream. Of better places, of different places, of places unknown by man or hand, or the long road of winding history. If but we could, we might upturn the world, drain the seas, and level any mountain to step just one bit closer to that waiting destination.

Perhaps the red pale dot of Mars is a compulsion, an idle obsession to lose ourselves in. A symbol of all that tommorrow may bring. Perhaps it is hope of what could be, of a new chance far from what we have always known. Though unknown and un-traveled, those safe harbors must be waiting.

Beneath the waning moon, the setting Mars, and ever constant stars, our dreams diverge, like raging rivers from the gentle stream. Yet our course is ever the same. Forward, through and around all obstacles in our path. Until one day, we reach an empty sea, and fill it, as we know we must.

Do not deny another their dream, whatever it may be. For some, America is that dream, as our Mars. Both are waiting over a hill.

Cobra Commander · 2004-06-15 08:49:46

It will not be stable. The gold supply would have to increase exactly with the rate of population increase so everyone would have access to the same amount of money/gold.

Yes, if we implemented gold-backed currency as a global standard and the world population continued to increase at the rate we've seen for the past few decades, and no gold is added into circulation, the doomsday scenario you mentioned previously would come to pass.

But I'm not suggesting we impose it on the world, merely adopt it in America. Let the rest of the world do what they will, though trade could get interesting with a greatly strengthened American dollar. The exchange rate would be whatever the world market price of gold is in the currency in question, whether it be Euros, Yen, Rubles etc.

The other two factors are questionable at best. Eventually gold (and silver) mined from the Earth will run out, but we aren't there yet. As mentioned previosuly there are other sources regardless. The gold supply isn't in danger of drying up in the short term, and in the long term only if we're complacent Earth-bound homebodies. Population growth isn't likely to continue at the same rates either, birth rates in many industrialized countries are down, and dropping in some developing countries. If we project from today, global population appears likely to go down over the coming century. Predicting the future is notoriously unreliable, but exploding population is increasingly unlikely.

If we re-adopt gold as the medium of exchange and proceed to move our activities off-world, as we all hope to see and if I'm not mistaken genuinely believe will happen, then the problem won't be insufficient supplies of gold but how to expand trade quickly enough to compensate for increasing gold supplies.

Do not deny another their dream, whatever it may be. For some, America is that dream, as our Mars. Both are waiting over a hill.

But one is our hill. We took it fair and... well, we took it. Let's not let this one wash away until we've taken another.

clark · 2004-06-15 08:54:24

If you help a man in making his dream, he will help you in yours.

If Mars was just a swim through the sea, or a hike across a desert, would any wall or law stop you?

Cobra Commander · 2004-06-15 09:04:37

If Mars was just a swim through the sea, or a hike across a desert, would any wall or law stop you?

No. But if I lived there, had built walls, and laws, had crossed the sea and tamed the desert I would welcome any who wanted to be part of that dream, but jealously guard it from those who would subvert and destroy it.

I'm not against immigration, but I do ask that immigrants conform to our society, assimilate to our culture, and adapt to us; not we to them. If you want the life America offers, embrace it. Become part of it. If you seek America to become part of the dream I welcome you. Otherwise, no good can come of it.

clark · 2004-06-15 09:12:31

Hey, we're in agreement.

I think we may be seeing a small difference between the "pond" in our experiences.

The immigrants who come to this country come for the opportunity, and for the choice. That is the basis of what our culture is.

Afterall, I sometimes eat salsa with my potato chips and drink micro-brews with my chiense food. :laugh:

I agree, assimilation is good, and it's good for us too. We need to work out a bit more of those stodgy Puritan world views yet. :laugh:

And in the words of a wise Prohphet, "F*ckin A."

Cobra Commander · 2004-06-15 09:34:09

The immigrants who come to this country come for the opportunity, and for the choice. That is the basis of what our culture is.

My concern is what "opportunities" they come for. Many come to work hard and make a better life for themselves and their families. They come to be Americans.

Others come to mooch off the American welfare system, to be more profitable criminals, or a few with the express intent of harming Americans. Still others want to make what they regard as an honest life, but in the manner of their home countries. We end up with unassimiliable pockets of foreign people with foreign cultures. They do not speak the language, do not respect our laws and customs, and are often hostile to others. They make little pockets of whatever hellhole they left behind. This cannot continue.

Not all immigrants are created equal.

clark · 2004-06-15 09:52:31

Others come to mooch off the American welfare system,

There are far more actual Americans that mooch off the system than non. Most people, when challenged, are hard pressed in producing any actual numbers of immigrants who end up on the welfare roles. Perhaps a small minority do as you think, but the vast majority do not.

to be more profitable criminals,

Is this a great country or what! If they are criminals, the cops will catch em. Then they can write a book, and then Hollywood can make a mini series, and a lot of honest people will get jobs. And we have another sterotype to export.

or a few with the express intent of harming Americans.

Them's the breaks man. [shrug] The unibomber was home grown. Timothy McVeigh was red white and blue. Denying a broad swath of people access based on an irrational fear that one of them might do us harm is bit over the top. Moderation in all things.

Still others want to make what they regard as an honest life, but in the manner of their home countries.

So? As long as they respect my desire to live my life as I choose, more power to them. I don't get bent out of shape when my german neighbors speak german, or my Irish friends drink too much, or my italian friends hit on the ladies. I wave my flag on Cinco de Mayo, I drink green beer on St. Patty's day, and I have done Christmas and Chaunka in the past.

I don't want people to live their life any other way than what they feel comfortable with, and as long as they give me the same latitude, what's the problem?

We end up with unassimiliable pockets of foreign people with foreign cultures.

Oh, you mean like the Ozarks? Or perhaps the Bible belt and Hollywood? The Amish? Quakers? Those people who start communal utopian compounds? Trek fans?

They do not speak the language, do not respect our laws and customs, and are often hostile to others.

Tell me who they are, and we can go beat them up. There are assholes everywhere, it's universal. [shrug]

They make little pockets of whatever hellhole they left behind.

There are no cultural lines, no color lines, no single religious affliation that this can be applied to. It exsist as a universal constant, regardless of sex, creed, color, or sexual orientation.

All idiots are created equal. :;):

Cobra Commander · 2004-06-15 10:18:00

There are far more actual Americans that mooch off the system than non. Most people, when challenged, are hard pressed in producing any actual numbers of immigrants who end up on the welfare roles. Perhaps a small minority do as you think, but the vast majority do not.

No, the majority do not. But some do, and we don't do much to discourage it.

My big probelm with this is that idea we got a while back that anyone born in the US is automatically an American citizen. That makes no sense and needs to stop. It undermines all efforts at legal immigration when all you have to do is pop out a kid on the right side of the border.

Is this a great country or what! If they are criminals, the cops will catch em. Then they can write a book, and then Hollywood can make a mini series, and a lot of honest people will get jobs. And we have another sterotype to export.

Ha. Meanwhile we have an American victim. Someone robbed, murdered, raped, beaten... all because we had this noble idea that everyone deserves a chance at the American dream.

Them's the breaks man. [shrug] The unibomber was home grown. Timothy McVeigh was red white and blue. Denying a broad swath of people access based on an irrational fear that one of them might do us harm is bit over the top. Moderation in all things.

Agreed, and throwing open the doors to all is excessive in the other direction. While we have our own crazies and thugs, why import more?

So? As long as they respect my desire to live my life as I choose, more power to them.

And that's just it, some of them don't.

I don't get bent out of shape when my german neighbors speak german, or my Irish friends drink too much, or my italian friends hit on the ladies.

I'll bet your German neighbors can speak English. I'll bet they do when dealing with others. I'll bet they don't demand that they be given welfare applications in German.

All the examples you give (of Western European immigrants, I might add) involve people who came here and retained their roots while becoming American. Too many immigrants today, mostly from other parts of the world, don't do that.

Oh, you mean like the Ozarks? Or perhaps the Bible belt and Hollywood? The Amish? Quakers? Those people who start communal utopian compounds? Trek fans?

They all speak English and for the most part know they're a bit odd. I've also never heard of gangs of Quakers gang-raping young white girls. Just a thought.

There are no cultural lines, no color lines, no single religious affliation that this can be applied to. It exsist as a universal constant, regardless of sex, creed, color, or sexual orientation.

When we let in large numbers of people with the same ethnic, religious or cultural background which is significantly different from our own, and we make no effort to properly assimilate them, we get problems. First in a short-term rise in criminal activity as the first-generation American children of these immigrants are born, don't speak English at home and never properly learn it, then lash out at a society they can't participate in fully and feel entitled to compensation from thanks to certain political factions, and later in huge demographic and cultural shifts that threaten to destroy what made the nation worth immigrating to in the first place.

We need to let people in, but we need filters.

clark · 2004-06-15 10:36:33

No, the majority do not. But some do, and we don't do much to discourage it.

The address that problem, don't make it bigger than it needs to be. Reform the welfare roles, fine. What does that have to do with immigration?

My big probelm with this is that idea we got a while back that anyone born in the US is automatically an American citizen. That makes no sense and needs to stop.

Ah, so you don't want your children to automatically be American citizens when they are born? Perhaps they could earn it by being sent off to war. It's an old custom, and I find it funy that you hold this opinion but also believe that foriegners can never be trusted to lead our country. Proof is in the pudding, eh? :laugh:

Ha. Meanwhile we have an American victim. Someone robbed, murdered, raped, beaten... all because we had this noble idea that everyone deserves a chance at the American dream.

Hey, throw em in jail, keep em there till they rot. But I still like the premise that all people are innocent until proven guilty. Give em a chance. Wouldn't you want that yourself?

I'll bet your German neighbors can speak English. I'll bet they do when dealing with others. I'll bet they don't demand that they be given welfare applications in German.

No, they can't. Their children can though. They don't demand much of anything, but I can understand wanting say, a book in their native language that explains how to vote, or what laws are being decided. Just because they can't speak English dosen't make them stupid. I might also add, your beef is with the fact that English is not the offical language in the United States. You can't really demand others learn English unless it is the offical language. Untill then, is it so hard to try and meet them half way? You don't have to learn their language, but we can certainly help them when possible.

They all speak English and for the most part know they're a bit odd. I've also never heard of gangs of Quakers gang-raping young white girls. Just a thought.

That's cause they keep it on the DL, yo. This issue would be so much easier (or moot) if we were just a bit (not too much) lie our European cousins and just learned two or three languages before the end of highschool...

When we let in large numbers of people with the same ethnic, religious or cultural background which is significantly different from our own, and we make no effort to properly assimilate them, we get problems.

LOL! Dude, when you're in LA, let me take you to Olvera Street, or Little Saigon, or Little Italy, or Little Tokyo, or any number of other ethnic centers. Great food, wonderful colors- and you don't even need a passport.

First in a short-term rise in criminal activity as the first-generation American children of these immigrants are born, don't speak English at home and never properly learn it, then lash out at a society they can't participate in fully and feel entitled to compensation from thanks to certain political factions, and later in huge demographic and cultural shifts that threaten to destroy what made the nation worth immigrating to in the first place.

You're latching onto the wrong things if you think we're losing what made this country worth immigrating too. Choice. Opportunity. For all. Don't complicate it any further than that, and you'll start to see.

When jerks, of all stripes, try to undo this basic premise, then we have problems, and then I'll cry foul with you. But, by and large, it isn't coming from the immigrant quarter- it's coming from those stuck in a vision of America looking, sounding, smelling, and tasting exactly like themselves.

They don't need to speak English to fit in, but learning English gives them more choice, more opportunity. The same way you and I learning Spanish or Chinese gives us more choice, more opportunity. I ain't going to force someone to understand this, but I'll try and help if I can. Come on Cobra, it's better on my side- and the food is great.

Cobra Commander · 2004-06-15 11:08:08

The address that problem, don't make it bigger than it needs to be. Reform the welfare roles, fine. What does that have to do with immigration?

I'd prefer that approach, as long as we stick to it. Let everyone try, and if they fail it's on them.

Ah, so you don't want your children to automatically be American citizens when they are born? Perhaps they could earn it by being sent off to war. It's an old custom, and I find it funy that you hold this opinion but also believe that foriegners can never be trusted to lead our country. Proof is in the pudding, eh?

It's fairly recent with regards to granting citizenship to the children of non-citizens who happen to be born this side of a signpost. If the parents are citizens, it makes sense to confer citizenship on the children. If they're not, all we're doing is opening a big fat loophole for anyone unwilling or unable to immigrate through proper channels. It's an unnecessary burden on the American people and an insult to immigrants who worked hard to be admitted legally.

To clarify, my problem isn't with some Mexican baby getting to be an American. It's with the parents, who illegally entered this country automatically becoming the legal guardians of an American citizen and therefore being permitted to stay, skipping the proper channels.

Hey, throw em in jail, keep em there till they rot. But I still like the premise that all people are innocent until proven guilty. Give em a chance. Wouldn't you want that yourself?

Absolutely I'd want that chance, but I wouldn't be coming here to engage in criminal activity either. We should check these people out, deny anyone questionable, and deport anyone who violate our trust. No one has an inherent right to immigrate to this country, we're generously offering them the opportunity. We're doing them a favor. Our own people take precedence.

No, they can't. Their children can though. They don't demand much of anything, but I can understand wanting say, a book in their native language that explains how to vote, or what laws are being decided. Just because they can't speak English dosen't make them stupid.

I never said they, or any other immigrants are stupid. I was attempting to explain that there are immigrants who don't learn English, well if at all for legitimate reasons, and there are those who won't learn it or refuse to speak it. The former is understandable, learning a whole new language late in life is hard, but the latter is actively hostile.

You're latching onto the wrong things if you think we're losing what made this country worth immigrating too. Choice. Opportunity. For all. Don't complicate it any further than that, and you'll start to see.

It's the mentality of the people that concerns me. The country was built by self-reliant people with strong work ethics, striving to build a better life for themselves and their children. Not all recent immigrants share those qualities, and should be weeded out before admittance.

Come on Cobra, it's better on my side- and the food is great.

Clark, we're on the same side. I'm just sitting at a different table, back in the corner, looking the place over. If a fight breaks out, I'll be ready. Until then, enjoy the food.

clark · 2004-06-15 12:50:11

Ho hum, agreement.

I'd prefer that approach, as long as we stick to it. Let everyone try, and if they fail it's on them.

So boring...

To clarify, my problem isn't with some Mexican baby getting to be an American. It's with the parents, who illegally entered this country automatically becoming the legal guardians of an American citizen and therefore being permitted to stay, skipping the proper channels.

Man, I think I'm falling asleep...

The former is understandable, learning a whole new language late in life is hard, but the latter is actively hostile.

Nothing to pick on here...

We should check these people out, deny anyone questionable, and deport anyone who violate our trust. No one has an inherent right to immigrate to this country, we're generously offering them the opportunity. We're doing them a favor. Our own people take precedence.

You're starting to sound almost moderate! Or maybe I'm not as liberal as I thought...

Just a quick aside though, wouldn't it be easier to check these people out if we made it easy for them to go through the system in the first place? Something I think I thought I had suggested.

The country was built by self-reliant people with strong work ethics, striving to build a better life for themselves and their children. Not all recent immigrants share those qualities, and should be weeded out before admittance.

Not all Americans share these qualities either, but hey, i agree. I think I need a nap now.

Clark, we're on the same side. I'm just sitting at a different table, back in the corner, looking the place over. If a fight breaks out, I'll be ready. Until then, enjoy the food.

Food Fight!

Cobra Commander · 2004-06-15 13:00:44

So much agreement. Urge to say something inflammatory just for laughs rising... No...Must be... Presidential...

Just a quick aside though, wouldn't it be easier to check these people out if we made it easy for them to go through the system in the first place? Something I think I thought I had suggested.

Absolutely, let's make it easy to start the process. Let's set up kiosks along the Rio Grande. As long as we only let in honest, hard working people genuinely interested in becoming part of America.

Quote
Clark, we're on the same side. I'm just sitting at a different table, back in the corner, looking the place over. If a fight breaks out, I'll be ready. Until then, enjoy the food.

Food Fight!

:laugh: I knew I should have ordered more burritos...

Cobra Commander · 2004-06-16 13:25:15

Slow day... So with tongue firmly in cheek...

Speech delivered from the White House in lieu of the scheduled State of the Union Address.

(Use a hint of GWB inflection, it's better) :;):

Countrymen. Only hours ago we witnessed an act of profound cowardice and depravity. Rescue workers continue to work on Capitol Hill, but hope is fading. The members of the Senate, the House of Representatives, gathered for the State of the Union address, have borne the brunt of our enemies' wrath and have become casualties in a war we did not start and can no longer afford to prosecute as we have been. The course we have previously followed has become a road too dangerous to travel and too narrow to navigate to our destination. This cannot stand. The choice is ours, though we have only begun to grieve, we must not succumb to fear. This terrorist act has reminded us that we have a duty to leave our children a safer, better world than the one we inherited. We will fulfill that duty.
(Applause)
Out of the fires of the Capitol dome shall rise an American phoenix, bringing freedom and dignity not only to the people of America but the people of the world, and in so doing making us all more secure. There are those who would blame America for this attack, those who say that we are prosperous at the expense of the world. Logic dictates then that when the world has wealth and prosperity equal to America, they will no longer envy us. They have sought to destroy what we have built, and this evening we have seen the result. For those responsible, we will bring justice, but for the innocent people of those nations we will help them build it for themselves. We are engaged in a war unlike any we have fought before. We cannot win through military might alone. This is not a war between governments, but between cultures. And we will triumph.
(Applause)
Our success in the annexation and assimilation of Mexico is proceeding well, but it is merely a beginning. Other challenges beckon, and we will meet them. We owe our military a debt of thanks for their recent service in Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria, Saudi Arabia, Iran, Korea, Taiwan, Indonesia, Cuba and Quebec. They have taken up a noble mission to protect, and to liberate. We owe them much more than we can give, but we also owe the people of those countries they have liberated. We owe them a better life than the one they've known, a future better than the one they had hoped to dream of, and a better position in the world. And so we take the historic step of welcoming them into the American family, first as territories, but in time with the full priveleges and responsibilites of states of the Union. America shall fulfill its Manifest Destiny, while respecting the sovereignty of our European brethren. My Administration has reached an agreement with the European Emperor Gennaro I, a pledge of mutual friendship and cooperation in all endeavors. The world is truly coming together for a more peaceful and prosperous future.
(Applause)
And we will not stop on the shores of foreign lands, we will continue pressing onward to greater heights. As we have demonstrated first with the Moon and just months ago, Mars, we intend not only to explore other worlds, but to bring life to them. Already our presence beyond the Earth is growing, and I pledge to you that, in close cooperation with our European brethren, mankind will continue its inexorable expansion into the cosmos.
(Applause)

clark · 2004-06-16 13:39:25

Other challenges beckon, and we will meet them. We owe our military a debt of thanks for their recent service in Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria, Saudi Arabia, Iran, Korea, Taiwan, Indonesia, Cuba and Quebec.

Freakin doves.

You forgot France.

Cobra Commander · 2004-06-16 13:43:26

Freakin doves.
You forgot France.

Well, I wanted to go in but the National Security Advisor thought it might upset relations with Emperor Gennaro.

So we invaded Quebec after they voted for independence in a referendum. Close enough.

clark · 2004-06-16 13:50:46

I'm sure they will love phase II. :laugh:

I still don't care. You're soft. You've changed man.

Cobra Commander · 2004-06-16 14:02:43

I still don't care. You're soft. You've changed man.

Damn politics, does that to you. :angry:

My fellow Americans, it is with great pleasure that I annouce to you that as of this day, the United States of America will no longer be dependant on foreign oil, or even the oil from once-foreign states that are now US territories.
(Applause)
Scientists and engineers working with the automotive industry and the Department of Energy have developed a cheap, clean burning, and renewable alternative to petroleum, and the technology to utilize this new fuel is available and affordable today.

(A compact car rolls out from behind the platform, silent and emitting to fumes. The car zooms away, weaves through an obstacle course, then returns, coming to a sudden a precise stop next to the podium. Applause)

I am proud to present the first production car using the revolutionary new Mana Combustion Engine.

(Reporters shout questions. The President points to a female CNN reporter.)

REP. What does it use for fuel, you right-wing warmongering swine?

PRES. As the name implies, it uses mana as a power source.

(Reporters shout questions. The President points to another female reporter, this one from Fox News)

REP. Mr. President, what exactly is mana and why are you bothering with this left-wing tree-hugging propaganda?

PRES. Well, it comes in glowing spheres roughly yay big (He holds his hands approx. 8 inches apart.) They float, you understand, about four feet off the ground, and the spheres are chock full of clean burning, renewable magic. A full sphere can power a car for six months, but the beauty of it is they never get empty.

REP. How is that possible, Mr. President?

PRES. I told you, it's magic.

(At this point the networks dumped coverage in favor of Michael Jackson's release from prison)

Gennaro · 2004-06-16 14:05:41

My Administration has reached an agreement with the European Emperor Gennaro I, a pledge of mutual friendship and cooperation in all endeavors. The world is truly coming together for a more peaceful and prosperous future.

:band: :laugh: LOL!

clark · 2004-06-16 14:16:50

In news today, Cobra Commander's Administration was rocked by recent revelations that his new energy effeciency plan is nothing more than junk science and slight of hand.

Several esteemed scientists, backed by anonymous donors from the energy sector have proven that the so-called "Mana-Combustion Engine" is powered by nothing more than tiny ferral hamsters."

The White House has been silent since the break of this new scandal, already dubbed by the politcal pundits as "Hamster-Gate", so stay tuned for on-going development as they happen.

Cobra Commander · 2004-06-16 14:26:58

It is with great regret that I address you tonight regarding the Mana Combustion Engine and the scandal surrounding it. The rumors you have heard are partially true, it is in fact unworkable. The original attempt to create mana worked, but we have been unable to generate more. It seems all the magic truly has gone out of the world. We will be polluting and stealing oil for the foreseeable future. I hope you can forgive me for misleading you and giving false hope, and I take full responsibility. But as we haven't had an election in five years and Congress was wiped out by terrorists, you're all just going to have to deal with it. Oh, and we're annexing Canada, dammit.

clark · 2004-06-16 14:30:45

F*ckin A.

PurduesUSAFguy · 2004-06-16 18:58:42

Banning firearms is a good way to start a civil war in the US.
If you campaigned on that
A.) you would never win
B.) Someone would cast their 'ballot' from a rooftop and you would have .50 caliber hole in you

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