Yet another Martian Constitution - An alternative to Euthenia

Cobra Commander · 2004-02-04 16:37:18

In response to a post by Scott G. Beach from his "Constitutional Amendment" thread, specifically

if you believe that you know enough about political science to draft a constitution that can endure for 1,000 years then please do so. Post it here for us to see.

Well, It was a slow day at work this morning and I had to look busy, so here it is.

Constitution of the Martian Colonies
It is hereby decreed that the Martian people claim ownership and sovereignty of the lands on which they reside and the surroundings for a radius of twenty-five kilometers from the landing site. This land shall be held in Stewardship by the Martian Colonial government described herein until such time as this colony is functionally self-sufficient. Citizens of the colony shall reside in habitats on this Stewardship land until such time as they are able to relocate into privately owned habitats. Land claims beyond the Stewardship boundary shall be honored provided the claimant can demonstrate intent and ability to develop it. Disputes shall be arbitrated by the Triumvirate until such time as a municipal authority can be constituted.

Article I
Executive

The executive authority of the Martian Colonial Government shall consist of a Triumvirate elected from the colony's population at large. The first Triumvirate, being in place at the time of colonization and preceding the enactment of this constitution, shall preside until the first election. Their Class shall be determined by lot, resulting in First, Second, and Third Triumvirs. Class shall have no bearing on relative authority of a Triumvir. Consensus of two Triumvirs shall be sufficient to exercise executive authority.

Triumvirs shall serve six (Earth) year terms with elections staggered every two (Earth) years, First Triumvir standing for election first, followed by Second Triumvir two years after and Third Triumvir two years after Second. The first election shall take place no sooner than two (Earth) years after the founding of the colony and no later than five (Earth) years, such as determined by the Senate and popular referendum.

Triumvirs shall be elected by a combination of popular vote and Senate vote, each counting for half of the total. A simple majority of total aggregated votes shall be sufficient to elect. (For example, twenty percent of the Senate vote coupled with forty percent of the popular vote wins the election if no other candidate exceeds this combined total percentage. One hundred percent of the popular vote plus one percent of the Senate vote wins, and vice-versa)

To stand for election to the Triumvirate one must be a naturalized Citizen from the founding of the colony or for a period not less than twenty years, or born a Citizen of the colony. No one under the age of thirty-five Earth years shall be eligible to serve as Triumvir.

The powers of the Triumvirate are as follows:

The power to enforce the laws of the colony.

The power to raise military forces adequate to the defensive needs of the colony, subject to Senate review every Martian year.

The power to summon the Senate when deemed necessary.

The power to negotiate treaties with other sovereign entities.

The power to veto legislation passed by the Senate.

The power to appoint judges.

While the Senate holds sole authority to declare and commit the colony to war, the Triumvirate may in time of need respond to attacks on the colony or its interests.

Article II
The Legislative

The legislative authority of the colony shall be wielded by the Senate. Senators shall serve terms of four (Earth) years. Senate elections shall coincide with Triumvir elections. None shall serve in the Senate who have not attained the age of twenty-five (Earth) years and also have been a Citizen of the colony for not less than ten (Earth) years.

Senators shall be elected by direct vote of the Citizen population. The Senate shall consist initially of twenty-five members. The numbers of the Senate and the method of apportioning may be amended twenty (Earth) years after the colony's founding in a manner agreed upon by the Senate at that time and the Triumvirate, so long as changes are not in a manner which contradicts this constitution.

The Senate shall elect one of their number to serve as Chancellor of the Senate. The Chancellor shall remain in the capitol year-round, regularly meeting with the Triumvirate.

The Senate shall hold session only:

Within one month of a Senate election.

When summoned by the Triumvirate.

When summoned by the Chancellor.

By request of not less than five percent of the Senate for purposes of debating legislation pertaining to a specific issue.

By petition of not less than five percent of the Citizen population for the purpose of debating legislation pertaining to a specific issue.

Senators shall not hold session year-round. Senators shall only be compensated while the Senate is in session. This is specifically intended to prevent the Senate from making law except in cases of necessity. Ideally, the Senate should only meet once each term.

The powers of the Senate are as follows:

The power to make law within the sphere of influence granted to it by this constitution.

The power to over-ride a Triumvirate veto with a four-fifths majority vote.

The power to declare war.

The power to levy taxes on the sale or import of goods. Taxation of income, wages or property is prohibited.

The power to propose, approve or deny funding of scientific, military, or domestic spending; provided spending does not exceed the income of the colonial government.

The power to approve or reject judicial nominees. A simple majority is sufficient to approve a nominee.

Article III
The Judiciary

The Judiciary shall consist of a Supreme Tribunal appointed by the Triumvirate and as many lower courts as the Citizen population may create through ballot initiative or referendum. Supreme Tribunal members serve for eight (Earth) years. Triumvirs are not eligible to serve on the Tribunal for a period of ten years after leaving office.

A ballot initiative to create a lower court must include the region for which it will have jurisdiction, the organizational form if not following the same arrangement as the Supreme Tribunal, and be approved through petition by not less than fifteen percent of the Citizen population in that jurisdiction to appear on the ballot. Voting on such initiatives shall take place only together with Triumvir and/or Senate elections.

The Triumvirate or Senate may propose to create a lower court. Such a proposal must be decided by referendum of the Citizen population who would fall under the new court's jurisdiction.

The purpose of the Judiciary is solely to interpret existing law. "Legislating from the bench" shall be grounds for dismissal and/or legal sanctions at the discretion of the Triumvirate and rulings in such cases shall be void. Only the creation of law shall constitute such offense, striking down existing law is within the purview of the judiciary.

Article IV
Colonial Law

"If an action brings no direct, quantifiable harm to another individual nor infringes upon the rights of another it cannot be criminal." This shall be the foundation of the law. Laws which do not conform to this principle are invalid. As incarcerating criminals is not economically viable under present Martian conditions, penalties other than incarceration are mandated. Following this principle, the following crimes are recognized and penalties prescribed. The following shall not be construed to constitute the entire body of law, but rather a guiding core. The laws shall be simple and clear, a force to protect the people rather than bind them.

Vandalism of public property, punishable by fines sufficient to repair the damage and public flogging of not more than five lashes, except in cases where facilities or equipment vital to life-support are damaged. In these cases the presiding tribunal may impose harsher penalties at their discretion.

Vandalism of private property, punishable by fines sufficient to repair the damage paid directly to the owner of said property and public flogging of not more than five lashes.

Theft, punishable by fines in excess of the value of the goods stolen paid to the victim if a private Citizen, or fines sufficient to replace the stolen goods paid to the controlling authority in cases of public property. Additionally, the offender shall endure public flogging of not more than five lashes.

Home invasion, punishable by the installation of video cameras and microphones in the residence of the offender and exterior screens for public viewing, or otherwise making "transparent" the residence, for a period of not less than one month. No room shall be exempt from this, including sanitation facilities. In addition the offender shall be punished with public flogging of not more than five lashes.

Murder in the third degree, as defined as unintentional death directly caused by the actions of the offender, punishable in a manner to be decided by the presiding judicial tribunal taking into account the circumstances of the event.

Murder in the second degree, as defined as willful killing not premeditated, shall also be punished in a manner decided by the presiding judicial tribunal taking into account the circumstances surrounding the event.

Murder in the first degree, as defined as premeditated willful killing, shall be punished by execution in a manner appropriate to the crime, at the discretion of the presiding tribunal.

Rape, punishable by execution in the following manner: The offender is to be impaled vertically on a sharp stake approximately waist high to the offender. The offender shall be denied food and water until such times as they expire, then to be disposed of in an undignified manner.

Killing in self-defense shall not be construed as murder. Further, a special case shall be made regarding the last two offenses as follows, if an individual commits murder in the first degree against one who is then proven to have committed rape against a victim known to the individual who stands accused of murder, that murder shall be treated as murder in the second degree for legal purposes and subject to lesser penalties, details of which shall be decided by the presiding tribunal.

All those charged with a crime shall not be convicted absent a unanimous decision of a jury of their peers possessing an understanding of the specifics of the case, the law, and being generally of sound judgment. All relevant evidence is to be presented prior to determination of guilt.

Article V
Citizenship

All colonists of the first settlement shall be Citizens under this constitution from the moment they set foot on Martian soil. Citizenship may be granted to newcomers in a manner to be prescribed by the Senate and ratified by the Triumvirate. Children born of a union of which one or both parents were Citizens shall be Citizens at birth. Merely being born within the boundaries of the colony governed by this constitution shall not confer Citizenship. Citizenship cannot be revoked by the colonial government.

Article VI
Martian Bill of Rights
Addressed to the people of Mars

The following are rights of every Citizen and are inviolable under this constitution.

1. No law shall be enacted abridging the freedom of speech, expression, or the freedom to peaceably assemble.

2. No law shall be made prohibiting Citizens from owning weapons which can be practically used for personal defense. Further, the ownership and carrying of such weapons shall not be subject to permits. All Citizens have the right to keep and bear arms, this is not a collective right, every individual has the right to be armed, this means you. In case of confusion, it means exactly what it says.

3. Citizens shall be secure in their persons, homes and personal effects. Searches shall only be carried out by duly constituted authorities presenting a warrant specifically describing the place to be searched and the persons or things to be seized. A warrant must be approved in writing by a judicial tribunal with constitutional jurisdiction. Assets seized from a Citizen must be returned if the Citizen is not convicted of the crime in question, or the Citizen's immediate family if convicted. No government agency may make use of seized assets.

4. Citizens shall be free from forced servitude, whether through physical or economic compulsion. Citizens shall be free to emigrate or otherwise separate themselves. Neither a Citizen nor government may lay claim to the fruits of another's labor without just and agreed upon compensation.

5. No Citizen shall be compelled to testify against themselves, nor be deprived of life, liberty or property without due process. All Citizens accused of a crime are innocent until proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt.

The enumeration of these rights shall not be construed to negate others not listed. The purpose of this constitution is to limit the power of government, not to grant power to the people in whom power naturally resides.

Article VII
Martian Bill of Non-Rights
Addressed to the people of Mars

1. There is no right to a forum for an individual's free speech or expression. No one has to give you broadcast time, no one has to print your writings, no one has to listen to you.

2. There is no right to life. Your life and health are your responsibility. Consequently there is no right to medical care, housing, food, clothing, employment, etc.

3. There is not now, nor has there ever been, a right to procreate.

4. Just as the fruits of your labor are your own, so do the fruits of another's labor belong to them. It is not unfair and no one is a victim. No one is obligated to take care of the lazy.

The enumeration of these non-rights shall not be construed as granting others not listed. Granting such would not be rights, but entitlements which are the wages of slavery. If you want to be taken care of and controlled, move to New Euthenia.

Hazer · 2004-02-04 18:01:35

Well, I like the Spirit of the thing-but I do have a problem where you use the words "Shall be punished by"
I think you ought to word it, "Shall be punishable by."

Josh Cryer · 2004-02-05 02:38:27

Bleh, stupid constitutions... :;):

It's fun to read, although 5 of the Rights contridicts number 2 of the non-Rights (and potentially 3 and 4, but I'll leave that to you to work out).

Pendragon · 2004-02-05 12:04:41

three questions/remarks:

1) I notcied that under the legislative article there is no mention of ensuring trade. Considering that your constitution is designed for the early phases on colonization, don't you think this might be necessary?

2) How many members sit on the Supreme Tribunal?

3) The list on Non-rights seems to be just a list of things you are frustrated about. And while I agree in part, a few just sit wrong with me. In #3 you have in a sense declared with your government that forced abortion/sterilization is allowed. If procreation isn't a right, then it is something than can be taken away.

I have a few more comments but have to go work, be back later

Cobra Commander · 2004-02-05 20:00:27

To those who have read this document, my condolences. You'll never get that time back.:D

Well, I like the Spirit of the thing-but I do have a problem where you use the words "Shall be punished by"
I think you ought to word it, "Shall be punishable by."

That was intentional. "Shall be punishable" implies that the punishment described is allowed or recommended. "Shall be punished by" leaves no room for doubt.

Bleh, stupid constitutions...
It's fun to read, although 5 of the Rights contridicts number 2 of the non-Rights (and potentially 3 and 4, but I'll leave that to you to work out).

BoR 5 guarantees that you won't be deprived of life (by the government) without due process. BoNR implies that you have no inherent right to have life maintained. There is no contradiction between BoR 5 and BoNR 2, unless you argue that death through the natural course of things or as the result of one's own decisions is a violation of due process, which I suppose one could argue but it would put one in the absurd position of arguing against the universe for violation of constitutional rights. Wait until the lawyers get into that one. Presumably, there are constitutional grounds for suing God. But first you have to prove his existence and deliver the summons, assuming the Almighty recognizes the jurisdiction of this government over the entire cosmos.

As for BoNR 3 and 4, it's arguable. But more on that later.

1) I notcied that under the legislative article there is no mention of ensuring trade. Considering that your constitution is designed for the early phases on colonization, don't you think this might be necessary?

This is either an oversight resulting from lack of sleep and proof-reading, or the express intent of the framers (in their infinite wisdom ) to deny the government authority to interfere in trade. Aside from the specifically allowed taxation of sales, they can't do anything. Which is it? This could go all the way to the Supreme Tribunal.

2) How many members sit on the Supreme Tribunal?

I envisioned three, but it could be almost any number. The problem here is that if the Tribunal were expected to rule on a case in a manner opposed to what the Triumvirate desires, constitutionally there are no obstacles to the appointment of new members. They could pull an FDR.

3) The list on Non-rights seems to be just a list of things you are frustrated about. And while I agree in part, a few just sit wrong with me. In #3 you have in a sense declared with your government that forced abortion/sterilization is allowed. If procreation isn't a right, then it is something than can be taken away.

Your assesment of the BoNR is correct. As for 3, this sinister little nugget was intentional. But it doesn't allow forced abortion or sterilization as this could be taken as a violation of BoR 5. What it does do is allow the government to set up a sort of eugenics program to allow only the best specimens to breed. While I do not find this particulalrly desireable, it may be a wise policy given the limited resources available.

But there is more to be said on this another time.

Gennaro · 2004-02-06 03:08:19

I love it!
Especially the Montesquieuish part about Triumvirs, Tribunes and the Senate. Very classy!

It's a good thing Triumvirs are elected by both senatorial and popular vote. It strikes a balance between oligarchy and too much democracy, although I could think of another way of electing senators which would be closer to a platonic ideal.

Although this raised some questions:

There is no right to a forum for an individual's free speech or expression. No one has to give you broadcast time, no one has to print your writings, no one has to listen to you.

Personally I'm a sucker for free speech. Not because I think it's an 'inalienable human right', but because a society can't do without it.
A social rinsing agent; a practical matter.

Pendragon · 2004-02-06 14:14:29

But it doesn't allow forced abortion or sterilization as this could be taken as a violation of BoR 5.

BoR states that they have the right to not be deprived of life without due process, While BoNR states that there is no right to life. This would allow forced sterilization and abortion (depending on the governments and courts view of when life begins) under a eugenics program like you mentioned.

I have newfound appreciation though of including BoNRs in a constitution (gained since I posted yesterday). I agree that there needs to be a limit of the social impact the government has to prevent the citizenry from relying heavily on the government. Or a stupid budget cruch can screw with your life like it did with me yesterday (sorry for the rant, got some built up anger).

Cobra Commander · 2004-02-06 15:19:52

Well last things first:

Or a stupid budget cruch can screw with your life like it did with me yesterday (sorry for the rant, got some built up anger).

No need for an apology, Pendragon, I know the feeling all too well, usually the direct result of overzealous or incompetent government hench... er, employees.

BoR states that they have the right to not be deprived of life without due process, While BoNR states that there is no right to life. This would allow forced sterilization and abortion (depending on the governments and courts view of when life begins) under a eugenics program like you mentioned.

But you are not being deprived of your life. To say that the "no right to life" clause as it pertains to sterilization/abortion violates the "due process" clause implies ownership of the potential offspring in question. On a more basic note, even if one considers life to start at conception, under this constitution Citizenship does not.

having said that, I must confess to a little mischief on my part in the writing of this document. While the Triumvir/Tribune/Senate relationship has merit, not to mention (as Gennaro pointed out) a certain class, and perhaps with it respectful authority, this constitution as a whole has inherent flaws, should one choose to push the issue.

Let's look ahead from the day this constitution is ratified...

The news, 200 years later...

The Senate is locked in debate over whether non-vegetarians can be tried for murder, citing that the constitution does not specify willful killing of a particular species under Article IV.

The Grand Tribunal ruled that the Breeding Certification Program is constitutional. In a pyrrhic victory for the eugenicists, the Tribunal also ruled that government-run sterilization clinics are legal but that citizens can not be forced to undergo the procedure. They can, however, be tricked into it; citing the precedent of the Fifth Right and the use of confessions obtained through deception.

Opposition Senators met to condemn the Triumvirate's decision to break off negotiations with the Cydonian Union. The Triumvirate unanimously agreed to use whatever measures are necessary to protect the terraforming facilities from the "Red Menace." Chancellor Daschle expressed "concern, regret, and deep concern" over the decision.

The Triumvirate vetoed the "Senate Serving Society Act," calling it a "cynical ploy to enrich themselves at the expense of the nation and saddle future generations with asinine laws solely to get themselves re-elected." The bill's backers blithered unconvincingly in response before being locked out of their offices. Government spending immediately dropped 17% and there was much rejoicing.

Public outcry over the exploitation of Euthenian slave labor reached its peak when the Grand Tribunal ruled that the constitution does not protect the rights of non-Citizens. BEMC chairman Bruzin commented "is it our fault these people didn't have the means or inclination to protect themselves? We take care of them just as well as their former masters, but we're honest about it."

No charges were filed in the Marineris Uprising, on the grounds that constitutional rights can be exercised in unison. As no one was actually harmed, the participants were within their rights to peaceably assemble bearing arms to express their outrage over job losses they blame on the Martian Alliance for Free Trade Agreement, or MAFTA.

Okay, some of that was just to be funny, but some of it represents serious flaws. This constitution should be good for another century or so before it collapses. So much for the Thousand Year Constitution. Maybe something simpler is needed.

Article I
Bill of Rights

1. No law shall be enacted abridging the freedom of speech, expression, or the freedom to peaceably assemble.

2. No law shall be made prohibitng ownership of weapons which can be practically used for personal defense. Further, the ownership and carrying of such weapons shall not be subject to permits. All people have the right to keep and bear arms, this is not a collective right, every individual has the right to be armed, this means you. In case of confusion, it means exactly what it says.

3. All people shall be secure in their persons, homes and personal effects.

4. All people shall be free from forced servitude, whether through physical or economic compulsion. People shall be free to emigrate or otherwise separate themselves. None may lay claim to the fruits of another's labor without just and agreed upon compensation. No taxation shall be imposed upon property, income or wages.

5. No one shall be compelled to testify against themsleves, nor be deprived of life, liberty or property without due process. All Citizens accused of a crime are innocent until proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt.

6. Those who wish to be left in peace shall be, provided they leave others in peace. Government shall not interfere in the lives of its people without just cause.

(Article II is "Colonial Law" section from previous)

Article III
Executive, Legislative, Judiciary.

All authority shall be vested in a Supreme Planet Lord. The Supreme Planet Lord shall rule in whatever manner deemed appropriate, so long as it does not violate the provisions of the preceding Articles. See Right 2.

Hmm. No one taking me seriously now, eh? There's a moral in here somewhere. ???

JammerG55 · 2004-04-28 13:28:08

Dear cc:

1. There is no right to a forum for an individual's free speech or expression. No one has to give you broadcast time, no one has to print your writings, no one has to listen to you.

Do you not realize that not having to listen to another person is in the constitution already?

And what is proceation anyway?

JammerG55 · 2004-04-28 13:36:19

2. No law shall be made prohibitng ownership of weapons which can be practically used for personal defense. Further, the ownership and carrying of such weapons shall not be subject to permits. All people have the right to keep and bear arms, this is not a collective right, every individual has the right to be armed, this means you. In case of confusion, it means exactly what it says.

Tell me does that include martial arts?

All authority shall be vested in a Supreme Planet Lord. The Supreme Planet Lord shall rule in whatever manner deemed appropriate, so long as it does not violate the provisions of the preceding Articles. See Right 2.

Thank you Mr. Dictator!!!

Cobra Commander · 2004-05-17 09:33:27

Quote
1. There is no right to a forum for an individual's free speech or expression. No one has to give you broadcast time, no one has to print your writings, no one has to listen to you.

Do you not realize that not having to listen to another person is in the constitution already?

Sometimes you have to state the obvious. Too many Americans now have gotten the idea that they need an outlet.

Quote
2. No law shall be made prohibitng ownership of weapons which can be practically used for personal defense. Further, the ownership and carrying of such weapons shall not be subject to permits. All people have the right to keep and bear arms, this is not a collective right, every individual has the right to be armed, this means you. In case of confusion, it means exactly what it says.

Tell me does that include martial arts?

Absolutely, whatever works for you. Some will carry a gun, some will learn martial arts, others might carry a sword for all we know. The right is to allow a person the means to defend themselves, or not at their discretion.

Quote
All authority shall be vested in a Supreme Planet Lord. The Supreme Planet Lord shall rule in whatever manner deemed appropriate, so long as it does not violate the provisions of the preceding Articles. See Right 2.

Thank you Mr. Dictator!!!

I accept the nomination!

Seriously though, the main point of this little exercise was to illustrate inherent flaws with putting too much focus on the structure of government at the expense of the powers of government. A constitution should limit its authority, granting it only specifics. Leaving interpretation of what it can and can't do open is most unwise.

JammerG55 · 2004-05-18 11:33:02

Thanks.

Martian Republic · 2004-06-20 11:55:29

Is suppose to be a sovereign Martian government or one or partially controlled by bankers on Earth?

If you go with a Federal Reserve System, then it will be controlled by bankers on Earth through the credit system, the Federal Reserve is a private bank with a government charter, so the United States is not totally sovereign, because bankers are making major decision and policies out side the U.S. Government.

But, if you go with a First National Bank of Mars and make like the U.S. First National Bank or give the Treasury Department in the Martian government generate credit, then you will have a sovereign Martian Government.

So is this Martian Government semi sovereign or is it suppose to be totally sovereign?

Larry,

Josh Cryer · 2004-06-20 12:06:03

My Martian Consitution

Article 1: Live and let live, don't do unto others what you would not have them do unto you.

Cobra Commander · 2004-06-21 06:15:21

Is suppose to be a sovereign Martian government or one or partially controlled by bankers on Earth?

The intent is for a sovereign government. A federal reserve type system as you mention is flawed in a number of respects, the most glaring I'd argue being the entire premise of fiat currency.

Were it my call I'd make the base unit of Martian currency the Auric, a gold coin of as yet to be determined weight. The coin itself would rarely circulate, instead having Treasury Dept. gold certificates in varying denominations which could be exchanged for coin at any bank. This in turn would allow for all the modern banking practices, credit, wire transfers and the like, but at the end of the day you have something real and tangible, gold coinage.

Martian Republic · 2004-06-26 09:51:37

Is suppose to be a sovereign Martian government or one or partially controlled by bankers on Earth?
The intent is for a sovereign government. A federal reserve type system as you mention is flawed in a number of respects, the most glaring I'd argue being the entire premise of fiat currency.
Were it my call I'd make the base unit of Martian currency the Auric, a gold coin of as yet to be determined weight. The coin itself would rarely circulate, instead having Treasury Dept. gold certificates in varying denominations which could be exchanged for coin at any bank. This in turn would allow for all the modern banking practices, credit, wire transfers and the like, but at the end of the day you have something real and tangible, gold coinage.

You used a good choice of words. The present Federal Reserve is owned by Private Bankers, so any government that has such a banking system would not be a sovereign nation. Yes, the money created by the Federal Reserve system if Fiat Money and has no real value. The dollar whether is an American dollar or a Martian dollar need to be a medium of exchange with a set value so you can buy and sale goods and services and should never be any thing other than that. But, having a dollar for dollar to gold per ounce will give you no elasticity in the money system and would stifle growth of the economy. But, you can't completely disengage Gold from the system either, I suggest an FDR Gold Reserve Standard instead of a Gold Standard. The primary differences are that a Gold Reserve Standard will let you generate credit and you can only generate credit up to the limit of the gold you have in a Gold Standard. Also only the Martian Government should have the authority to generate credit and have first use of that credit to build up the infrastructure of Mars to sustain a Martian Civilization. Because if the bankers get first use of that credit generating capability and can charge interest on the generated credit, the Martian Civilization could never a become self-sufficient Civilization because of the debt load. This removal of U.S. regulation on the banking industry in Nixon 1971 floating exchange rate act which removed the Gold Reserve Standard and Brenton Wood Agreement destroyed the continuing NASA Space Mission and made them too expensive to accomplish. I personally favor putting the Federal Reserve system into bankruptcy and reorganize it into either putting it under the Treasury Department or a Third National Banking System which is a corporation of the U.S. Government that is run and operated by the U.S. Government. This would be consistent with the U.S. Constitution of American. I would also go on the premise that the Federal Government of Mars is going to be given the power to generate there own credit like the U.S. Government should have control over there own credit system and so the Martian people can control there own destiny once Mars has developed the own Agro-Industrial-Mining Complexes. Otherwise you either won't be able to build a society on Mars or there will have to be some kind of war to force independence from those bankers that are looting the Martian population like they looted California through Kenneth Lay of Enron.

Larry,

~Eternal~ · 2004-07-07 16:54:46

Wait are you advocating LIBERTARIANISM? The most horrid belief on this planet?

I dare say we do not take it to others!

Socrates · 2004-08-29 14:10:20

It's not a bad effort but it's rather unimaginative

Cobra Commander · 2004-08-30 10:04:09

Welcome Socrates.

It's not a bad effort but it's rather unimaginative

I suppose, but imaginative political systems have a tendency to end badly. All that unproven novelty and weird ideas about human nature.

But this one's just an off-the-cuff draft, I'm not going to raise troops to force it or anything.

Socrates · 2004-09-01 18:24:46

First of all Cobra Commander, the US Constitution was a fairly novel idea for it's time and it has survived more or less intact for over two hundred and twenty-five years. Secondly it's probably not a good idea to quote a fascist (Benito Mussolini).

Cobra Commander · 2004-09-02 05:07:36

First of all Cobra Commander, the US Constitution was a fairly novel idea for it's time and it has survived more or less intact for over two hundred and twenty-five years.

Based on ideas that had been refined for decades in theory if not in practice. More generally, a Republic wasn't all that "imaginative" nor was the idea of individual rights.

Secondly it's probably not a good idea to quote a fascist (Benito Mussolini).

So nothing the man says should be considered because he was a fascist, even on the occasions that he was right? How open-minded and rational of you. :;):

Palomar · 2004-09-02 06:45:26

So nothing the man says should be considered because he was a fascist, even on the occasions that he was right? How open-minded and rational of you. :;):

*Hey Cobra, what about that "loving orphaned gray kittens and rabbits" quote? Will you ever use it in your sig? :;):

--Cindy

Cobra Commander · 2004-09-02 06:58:27

Okay, just for today.

Socrates · 2004-09-02 15:40:25

Okay fine Cobra Commander, sometimes people can say something that's true even if they were totalitarian egomaniacs. Although you'll have to repeat the quote because I didn't really ready (I'm allergic to fascist rhetoric so I cringe at quotes by fascist leaders)

However, I stand by my earlier position about the constitution being somewhat novel. America was the first real Republic because England was a Constitutional Monarchy (very similar to but not quite a repubic, Parliment was not totally elected by the people (and the part that was elected wasn't that powerful)) and the only western democracies before that were Athens and the Roman Republic (Athens was a direct democracy and... all right so there was ONE government similar to the US, big deal the Idea still hadn't been succesfully implemented in 1800 years.)

Cobra Commander · 2004-09-02 19:03:49

Socrates, I skimmed through your numerous posts here and noticed you referred to yourself as a socialist.

Curious, but is some form of socialism the "imaginative" system you had in mind?

If so, seen it, not impressed. Next.

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#1 2004-02-04 16:37:18

Re: Yet another Martian Constitution - An alternative to Euthenia

#2 2004-02-04 18:01:35

Re: Yet another Martian Constitution - An alternative to Euthenia

#3 2004-02-05 02:38:27

Re: Yet another Martian Constitution - An alternative to Euthenia

#4 2004-02-05 12:04:41

Re: Yet another Martian Constitution - An alternative to Euthenia

#5 2004-02-05 20:00:27

Re: Yet another Martian Constitution - An alternative to Euthenia

#6 2004-02-06 03:08:19

Re: Yet another Martian Constitution - An alternative to Euthenia

#7 2004-02-06 14:14:29

Re: Yet another Martian Constitution - An alternative to Euthenia

#8 2004-02-06 15:19:52

Re: Yet another Martian Constitution - An alternative to Euthenia

#9 2004-04-28 13:28:08

Re: Yet another Martian Constitution - An alternative to Euthenia

#10 2004-04-28 13:36:19

Re: Yet another Martian Constitution - An alternative to Euthenia

#11 2004-05-17 09:33:27

Re: Yet another Martian Constitution - An alternative to Euthenia

#12 2004-05-18 11:33:02

Re: Yet another Martian Constitution - An alternative to Euthenia

#13 2004-06-20 11:55:29

Re: Yet another Martian Constitution - An alternative to Euthenia

#14 2004-06-20 12:06:03

Re: Yet another Martian Constitution - An alternative to Euthenia

#15 2004-06-21 06:15:21

Re: Yet another Martian Constitution - An alternative to Euthenia

#16 2004-06-26 09:51:37

Re: Yet another Martian Constitution - An alternative to Euthenia

#17 2004-07-07 16:54:46

Re: Yet another Martian Constitution - An alternative to Euthenia

#18 2004-08-29 14:10:20

Re: Yet another Martian Constitution - An alternative to Euthenia

#19 2004-08-30 10:04:09

Re: Yet another Martian Constitution - An alternative to Euthenia

#20 2004-09-01 18:24:46

Re: Yet another Martian Constitution - An alternative to Euthenia

#21 2004-09-02 05:07:36

Re: Yet another Martian Constitution - An alternative to Euthenia

#22 2004-09-02 06:45:26

Re: Yet another Martian Constitution - An alternative to Euthenia

#23 2004-09-02 06:58:27

Re: Yet another Martian Constitution - An alternative to Euthenia

#24 2004-09-02 15:40:25

Re: Yet another Martian Constitution - An alternative to Euthenia

#25 2004-09-02 19:03:49

Re: Yet another Martian Constitution - An alternative to Euthenia

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