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exterrester

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Re: Traces of Civilization? - Analysis of selected Mars images

M0100734
This area appears to show signs of civilization, looks city-like with various buildings and streets.  In two places there is a string of letters that look very similar, perhaps the name of this place on Mars?  Best viewing results are obtained on a crt ( not a flatscreen) with the aid of a magnifying glass.

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nirgal

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Re: Traces of Civilization? - Analysis of selected Mars images

I don't see anything.

Lone--Wolfe

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Re: Traces of Civilization? - Analysis of selected Mars images

lol. same. i think thats rock,exter

Shaun Barrett

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Re: Traces of Civilization? - Analysis of selected Mars images

Nirgal:-

I don't see anything.

    I do see what Exterrester is talking about - possibly a horizontally elongated letter "o" followed by an "x". But we're back to the old problem of 'pixel mirages' again!
    For Exterrester's information, we've had quite long, involved and even heated debates about just this kind of image before. The only possible conclusion to be reached in these cases is that such pictures do not constitute evidence of artificiality.
    Even if what appears in them are actually ruined buildings and other artifacts, the 'noise' in the image is simply way too overpowering to enable a sensible interpretation of what we're seeing. We need better pictures or, better yet, a landing party!   

    What amazes me is how people can find elongated "o"s and "x"s in pictures like these. They must spend hours and hours peering at largely featureless images until they see what they think might be something artificial!!
    I would love to see something genuinely artificial on Mars but I think these pixel gazers really need to get out in the fresh air once in a while!
                                       :;):

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rhw007

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Re: Traces of Civilization? - Analysis of selected Mars images

One can ask what angles and alleys are seen through that 'cold, dead, dry, dusty dune of a place?'

http://www.commonsensecentral.com/2003/crop1.gif

Are they dunes or dust covered alleys?

One can always wonder. What's YOUR opinion?
Where are the lines to be drawn?
Is it a trick question?
What do you believe?
Is it true?

Bob... ;-{)
http://www.commonsensecentral.com

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Shaun Barrett

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From: Cairns, Queensland, Australia

Registered: 2001-12-28

Posts: 2,843

Re: Traces of Civilization? - Analysis of selected Mars images

rhw007 writes:-

Are they dunes or dust covered alleys?

    If you have to ask, then obviously the evidence is inconclusive, by definition.

    The next step is to ask whether it's likely Mars was warm, wet and hospitable long enough for intelligent life to develop and build towns and cities. So far, everything we know about Mars says the answer is no!
    Even the far more clement terrestrial environment, with its strong global magnetic field, dense stable atmosphere, warmer temperatures and permanent oceans, took 4.6 billion years to produce urban development!

    I suppose you could invoke travellers from another star system to explain these purportedly artificial structures, but then you're pushing speculation just as hard. Why, for instance, would these interstellar wanderers have set up home on a small, cold, dry, airless rock when they could have had Earth?

    Having said all that, someone declared the universe is not only stranger than you imagine, it's stranger than you can imagine. So I hesitate to say something is forever impossible. I even look at the Face on Mars, scratch my head and say: "I wonder ... !"

    So keep looking rhw007. The odds are massively against you but you never know ... !
                                         

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The word 'aerobics' came about when the gym instructors got together and said: If we're going to charge $10 an hour, we can't call it Jumping Up and Down.   - Rita Rudner

exterrester

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Re: Traces of Civilization? - Analysis of selected Mars images

Shaun posted:

"I do see what Exterrester is talking about - possibly a horizontally elongated letter "o" followed by an "x". But we're back to the old problem of 'pixel mirages' again!
   For Exterrester's information, we've had quite long, involved and even heated debates about just this kind of image before. The only possible conclusion to be reached in these cases is that such pictures do not constitute evidence of artificiality.
   Even if what appears in them are actually ruined buildings and other artifacts, the 'noise' in the image is simply way too overpowering to enable a sensible interpretation of what we're seeing. We need better pictures or, better yet, a landing party!   
   What amazes me is how people can find elongated "o"s and "x"s in pictures like these. They must spend hours and hours peering at largely featureless images until they see what they think might be something artificial!!
   I would love to see something genuinely artificial on Mars but I think these pixel gazers really need to get out in the fresh air once in a while!"

I am very much aware of the problems of image interpretation in regards to pixels, image quality and artifacts, and this image does have those problems to some degree.  I think that in spite of those problems there is enough quality in certain areas of the image, particularly those outlined in red below, that a correct interpretation can be made.

The line of small, building-like shapes in the lower left box are certainly not artifacts.  What is immediately surrounding them does not look like artifacts and the area above the lower left box can also be read (IMO).  The area pointed out with the red arrows in the upper left has a long, rectilinear structure or wall with two well-defined right angles, I do not believe this is the result of artifacts.  The other two boxes also contain areas of structure which I do not believe to be artifacts. 

Upon close examination one can see that these structures are laid out in an intelligent fashion that is very suggestive of what one would expect to see in sat images of civilized areas on earth.  This does not appear to be random artifacts.  I feel there is a relationship between the structures that reflects having been created and placed in a way that suggests intelligence and civilization and not randomness. 

Additionally, the strings of alpha-numeric symbols that can be seen in several places are IMO most definately not a caused by artifacts.  Artifacts can certainly create shapes that look like letters or numbers but there is a generic quality to them and they tend to show up in fairly repetitive patterns through out the image or in the image background.  The alpha-numeric symbols in this image are distinctive in style, each of the three strings of symbols I have pointed out have their own distinctive style that is matched with each of the other letters in that particular string.  The letter string in the lower left box curves.  This is not suggestive of artifacts.

The letters in each string stand out from the rest of the image, with the effect being that each of these strings stands out as a unified and unique group of alpha-numeric symbols.  Random artifacts are very unlikely to cause this effect and the chances of this happening at all and certainly not three times in the same image are next to zero IMO.

As to your remark about my having to pour over these images to find these words, in this case the words jumped out at me almost immediately.  Although I will admit to being guilty of spending excessive time looking at Mars images.

The point you make about taking into consideration whether or not there could be conditions on Mars that would allow for a past or present civilization to have created an urban area with signs is a good one.  I feel that there are several clues that point to the possibility of past or present Martian life as well as sound technical and scientific reasons.

Two respectable sources have reported picking up transmissions from Marsduring this century.  Tesla reported picking up Martian transmissions after beaming a signal to Mars and transmissions from Mars were also reported  and recorded by scientists during the day of radio silence which occured in the 1930's (I am unsure of the actual date).

It is possible that Mars was once extensively inhabited and then sustained a disaster.  If the Martians were technologically advanced they had probably already created extensive underground areas capable of sustaining some of the population.  Here on Earth there are areas that have been created miles beneath the ocean that can support life completely independent of the surface.  These areas generate their own atmosphere.  I would think it likely that the Martians could have created similar underground living areas for continuance of government and civilization and that even if a major planetary disaster occured there would be a remnant that would have survivied and adapted, and possibly rebuilt a civilization from underground.  They certainly have enough water.

Due to geomagnetic anomalies, surface conditions on Mars are variable as to the amount of radiation received and the thickness of the atmosphere.  I think it is possible that some areas of Mars are livable and that even the inhospitable areas could be livable with the aid of high tech shelter or coverings.

There are technical factors that could be contributing to our differences in what we perceive in this image.  I have discovered that flatscreen monitors are really unsuitable for viewing images that have been enlarged.  I am looking at this image on a high-resolution, millions of colors,  21" crt (Mac).  I regularly calibrate my convergence.

This may all seem like overkill and kind of silly but I think it is reasonable to expect the interesting details that suggest artificial structures and the possibility of intelligent civilization to be small and hard to see.  Patience,  the proper monitor plus the use of magnifying glass are all important in this process.

exterrester

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Re: Traces of Civilization? - Analysis of selected Mars images

At first glance this image looks like dunes.  A closer examination suggests other possiblilities.  In several places the "dunes"  give the effect of looking through somewhat sheer fabric with the hint of structures being underneath.  The "sheerness of fabric" effect is especially noticable at the bottom of the image.  My speculation is that this could be a high-tech covering which might provide a shield against excessive radiation as well as containing a breathable atmosphere, enabling life to exist in an otherwise hostile area of Mars.

M2100514, Enlarged and focused.

Shaun Barrett

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Re: Traces of Civilization? - Analysis of selected Mars images

Exterrester writes:-

Here on Earth there are areas that have been created miles beneath the ocean that can support life completely independent of the surface. These areas generate their own atmosphere.

    I'm not sure I follow what you're saying here. Can you clarify this point?

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exterrester

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Re: Traces of Civilization? - Analysis of selected Mars images

I was referring to military bases that have been built miles below the ocean floor.  I came across this information in the second edition of a book on the subject (I don't remember the exact title, I think it was Underground Bases and Tunnels.)

The author stated that these bases were capable of generating their own air supply (probably from sea water) and could function without relying on our surface atmosphere.

exterrester

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Re: Traces of Civilization? - Analysis of selected Mars images

M0301995

This is another image that is hard to view without a magnifying  glass. If you're using a flat screen to view this these details may be completely unreadable even with the help of a magnifying glass.

The first time I looked at this image I thought the bright white spot, seen about two-thirds of the way down on the right, was a very bright light source but on closer examination it looks like  it might be a milky colored pool of liquid or maybe vapor?  Near the lower edge of this  pool or light there appears to be a very tall mechanical structure of some type along with other industrial-looking structures.

To the left of the red arrows there is an area that looks very structural, lots of  little building-type shapes layed out in an organized way.

Interesting details can also be found along the sides of the  wall-like form that traverses down the image towards the right.

Shaun Barrett

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Re: Traces of Civilization? - Analysis of selected Mars images

As always, the amount of detail discernible in these pictures leaves any definitive interpretation impossible to arrive at.
    In the general context of the images, an artificial interpretation seems unlikely to me. I've yet to see anything unequivocally 'manufactured' in any image of the Martian surface. The so-called Face on Mars is the closest thing I've seen to what could conceivably be intelligent design - but even there, I have to say it must remain inconclusive until better information becomes available.
    A very sobering revelation for me, as far as Cydonia goes, involved the Viking image of one of the structures in the 'city complex'. To me it looked very much like a triangular pyramid in a state of either incompleteness or dilapidation. A much better MGS image more recently showed this same object to be an irregular mesa with an impact crater on it!!
    That was a catharsis for me in that it demonstrated how deceptive a poor-resolution image can be and how easily we see what we want to see! It became very apparent to me that my standards of judgment were too low. I've since raised them much higher.
    Even though I'd like to see a building on Mars - I love a good mystery as well as a good conspiracy theory! - you have yet to convince me I'm looking at anything other than rocks and sand in peculiar lighting conditions! But I believe I'm open minded on most things and I look forward to you persuading me.
                                     

    I've never heard of military bases under the ocean bed and I find it hard to imagine why any country would want to go to such enormous trouble and expense to build them.
                                      ???

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dickbill

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Re: Traces of Civilization? - Analysis of selected Mars images

That was a catharsis for me in that it demonstrated how deceptive a poor-resolution image can be and how easily we see what we want to see! It became very apparent to me that my standards of judgment were too low. I've since raised them much higher.

That's not the first time actually, if you remember Schiaparelli's canalis. You see more easily what you want to see.
The "face" and the "pyramids" were  more serious things, at least until MGS killed the myth, as you said. But I am sure that even at NASA, some people were troubled by these geometrical features and might have avoided to talk about it publically.
Do people on this list know what were the (un)official opinion
of the big guys at NASA: Carl Sagan, Von Braun, O'Keefe (before MGS) about these features ?

Shaun Barrett

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Re: Traces of Civilization? - Analysis of selected Mars images

Quote from Dickbill:-

That's not the first time actually, if you remember Schiaparelli's canalis. You see more easily what you want to see.

    Very true!

    As for the unofficial opinions of "the big guys at NASA", my view is that O'Keefe probably doesn't have an opinion. (He's an accountant - only one step away from being an actuary. And you know what they say about actuaries: An actuary is an accountant who left accounting because s/he couldn't stand the excitement! ) In other words he's just a bean-counter ... albeit a supposedly good one.
    I don't remember anyone commenting about Von Braun's opinions regarding purported artificial structures on Mars. I suspect he was far more interested in the engineering aspects of going to Mars than in what to expect when we got there. Maybe I'm wrong.
    Carl Sagan spoke of "enigmatic landforms" on Mars after the Viking missions but, again, I don't think he would have allowed any personal suspicions about intelligently designed structures to 'leak out', even if he had any. He was already the subject of some criticism by his peers for 'overly glamourising' space research in TV programs like the popular "Cosmos" series. (Probably jealousy on the part of scientists who lacked his ability to communicate the wonders of science to the ordinary person.) Anyone in his position would naturally avoid getting involved in anything too near 'the fringe'.
    Sagan was, nevertheless, probably more inclined to believe in the possibility of higher life-forms on Mars than most of his scientific colleagues. As I mentioned once before at New Mars, he was keen to install lights on the Viking landers so that any nocturnal Martian animals could be photographed as they foraged around in the freezing (but UV-free) darkness! Such a willingness to believe in the possibility of creatures adapting even to the appallingly hostile conditions on present-day Mars, reveals a mind which was refreshingly open for a man so high up the professional ladder, where many minds seem inclined to close up for fear of ridicule.
    How interesting it would have been to talk to him for a while and find out what he really thought about Mars.
                                     

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The word 'aerobics' came about when the gym instructors got together and said: If we're going to charge $10 an hour, we can't call it Jumping Up and Down.   - Rita Rudner

dickbill

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Re: Traces of Civilization? - Analysis of selected Mars images

I don't remember anyone commenting about Von Braun's opinions regarding purported artificial structures on Mars. I suspect he was far more interested in the engineering aspects of going to Mars than in what to expect when we got there. Maybe I'm wrong.

But he must have seen the viking pictures of the "face" and the other strange features of Cydonia. The "face" alone might have been a coincidence, but when you see a 3 faces pyramid and other geometrical objects not far to it, frankly, that should stimulate your curiosity. Restropectivelly, the fact that these pictures were never more publicized shows a certain disinterest for the space thing.
In todays world, I am afraid that if some primitive "life" is discovered one day on Mars, that will do the front page for a couple of days and after that, back to the Kobe Brian affair or the Osbournes, 'beeeepppp' ... things that really matter.

Shaun Barrett

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Re: Traces of Civilization? - Analysis of selected Mars images

Von Braun died in 1977, the same year the Face pictures were taken.
    Maybe he was past caring by that stage (?).   ???

[In any event, I think the hulabaloo about the Face didn't start right away. There was a time gap before all the hype. I'm pretty sure Von Braun was gone by then.]

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The word 'aerobics' came about when the gym instructors got together and said: If we're going to charge $10 an hour, we can't call it Jumping Up and Down.   - Rita Rudner

sethmckiness

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Re: Traces of Civilization? - Analysis of selected Mars images

The other fact is simple resolution.. at a resolution of 1 mile or 1km, and you see something like a face or a pyramid, it comes into a common sense kind of thing... knowing that at that resolution you would not be able to diserne anything of complex detail.

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exterrester

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Re: Traces of Civilization? - Analysis of selected Mars images

dickbill,
I don't know what "the big guys" at nasa thought about the face but there was alot of early on support for it being artificial from a fairly wide array of well-known scientists.

Dr. Mark Carlotto, using photoclinometry, concluded that the face seen in the photographs reflects an actual face on the ground and not an illusion, stating "The features are present in the underlying topography and do seem to reflect recognizably facial charateristics over a wide range of illumination, conditions and perspectives."

Geologist James Erhavec, who has assisted in the establishment of a geologic baseline for continued studies of Cydonia does not believe any of the anomalous features of Cydonia are the result of natural erosion processes.

Geologist G. E. Mcgill, using crater dimensional equations concluded that only slight to modest erosion had occured in the area, simply not enough to allow the formation of the
Cydonia anomalies through erosion.

Anthropologist James Channon examined the "Face on Mars" and found its proportions were in accord with classical cannons concluding that the structure was"...a consciously created monument typical of archaelogy left by our predecessors."

Dr. Mark Carlotto and his colleague Michael C. Stern applied fractal analysis to the face on Mars and the results indicated very high probablility that the structure was artificial.

Robert  Fiertek did an extensive four year study of the Mars structures that included careful measurements of their relative alignments.  He was so impressed by their architectural symmetries that he concluded:

"It can be argued that individual objects at Cydonia may or may not be artificial, but it is very doubtful that the complex as a whole is anything but artificial."

Others supporting the artificiality of the face, Vincent Dipietro, Gregory Molenaar and of course, Richard Hoagland.

(The above info is from the book Martian Genesis by Herbie Brennan)

I would love to know what Carl Sagan really thought about alot of things.  I believe he deliberately aided in the cover-up of anything having to do with ETs, actions he is said to have regreted towards the end of his life.

One thing that I find most intriguing about the "Face on Mars" is that it may have a connection to another "Face" here on Earth.  They are both ancient, monolithic structures with certain similarities of form, most obvious is the similar structured base of each "Face".

And then there are all the other faces that can be found in the Mars images.  What is the explantion for all the other faces?

exterrester

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Re: Traces of Civilization? - Analysis of selected Mars images

The "shadows" in this image look artificial, their tonal quality is not at all consistent with other shadows in the image.

Brute and heavy handed censorship?.... or are these very peculiar looking shadows really part of the  Martian landscape?

Adrian

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Re: Traces of Civilization? - Analysis of selected Mars images

Moved thread to Intelligent Alien Life forum.

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exterrester

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Re: Traces of Civilization? - Analysis of selected Mars images

M020487
Urban Mars?

The only natural substance I know of that might crystalize into squares is Galena.  Is the surface of Mars covered with Galena in this area?  Or is this urban Mars?

Shaun Barrett

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From: Cairns, Queensland, Australia

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Posts: 2,843

Re: Traces of Civilization? - Analysis of selected Mars images

Could be just a low-resolution poor-quality photo of nothing in particular.
    Just a thought.

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The word 'aerobics' came about when the gym instructors got together and said: If we're going to charge $10 an hour, we can't call it Jumping Up and Down.   - Rita Rudner

exterrester

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Re: Traces of Civilization? - Analysis of selected Mars images

Try looking at it with a magnifying glass.  This is an amazing image.  I will attempt to do a better job of processing it to show what is there.  I clearly see what looks like patterns of urbanization.

exterrester

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Re: Traces of Civilization? - Analysis of selected Mars images

Blue Mars

A rare Hubble shot of Mars.

exterrester

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Re: Traces of Civilization? - Analysis of selected Mars images

M0100680 Enlarged and focused.