NASAâ€™s Martian Watershed - An honest look at where NASA and we are.

rhw007 · 2002-05-19 23:04:45

May 6, 2002

To Whom It May Concern:

NASA?s Martian Watershed

The news conference (lecture) by Dr. Roger Gibbs the new Project Manager for the Mars Odyssey Spacecraft touted by NASA here:

http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/events/lectures/may02.html

"...how Odyssey fits into the broader Mars Exploration Program objective to follow the water, seeking to determine if life ever arose on Mars. "

is actually the entire NASA Agency?s own ?watershed? for honest scientific integrity in fulfilling its chartered mandate to search for life elsewhere. We sincerely disappointed Dr. Gibbs did not represent a significant change in the channel of static we have been getting from NASA/JPL about Mars and Cydonia. While we have been ?following the water? since 1976, and even if some had to go ?kicking and screaming?:

http://www.space.com/science....22.html

http://www.space.com/science....28.html

http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/releases/97/mgsci.html

http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/snc/nasa2.html

http://mars.jpl.nasa.gov/mgs/sci/fifthconf99/water.html

http://sse.jpl.nasa.gov/whatsnew/pr/000622C.html

in the last few years, we have all come to agree and know that Mars is actually much more wet than mainstream planetary scientists had originally thought. Along with evidence of Martian LIFE being found in a Martian Meteorite and evidence conditions have been proved to be existent for that life to develop and exist today:

http://sse.jpl.nasa.gov/whatsnew/pr/001213B.html

http://mars.jpl.nasa.gov/mgs/sci/fifthconf99/bio.html

http://www.curiousnotions.com/mars/index.html

the issue of ?water? on Mars has long been a been there done that kind of thing if NASA/JPL would only LOOK at the images they have been releasing:

http://home.thirdage.com/Teaching/rhw007/M0901354.gif

http://www.geocities.com/rhw007_y/

There are LIQUID LAKES of the stuff laying there in the open, plain as day. Water?we already KNOW its there, we also know that there once existed LIFE, and intelligent life which constructed highly geometric mega Pyramids on Mars that dwarf the GIZA Pyramids of Egypt and there is EVIDENCE of that also, again if NASA/JPL bother to even LOOK!

http://www.newfrontiersinscience.com/index.shtml

In Cydonia these enigmatic features are waiting for humanity to come look into the mirror that is Mars.

Recently, the National Research Council:
http://www4.nationalacademies.org/news.ns....ocument

Issued a warning that we should postpone human exploration of Mars. To quote Mars Anomalist researcher Mac Tonnies:

?Anything a JPL Lander can do, an astronaut can do more quickly, more fastidiously, and more intelligently.?

From one of the above water links:
http://www.space.com/science....22.html

"This story, I don't believe, will be answered until someone goes with a pick and shovel to actually chip away at the landforms, Malin said.?

Using Dr. Mike Malin?s quoted comment is supremely appropriate to today?s questions concerning Mars. We need humans there, we need to find out EVERYTHING in an honest and open manner about ALL the evidence of enigmatic features and aspects of Mars. Because also as Dr. Edgett said ?It's not your mother's Mars,? anymore.

NASA in the past has promised members of Congress and the American people to study the enigmatic features in Cydonia. To date there is no NASA public study other than tortured and fully debunked Jet Propulsion Laboratory Press Releases on comparisons to ?Middle Butte-Idaho? which fell on it?s own butte from a NASA engineer:

http://www.vgl.org/webfiles/mars/face/m … ebutte.htm

so they switched on the following image, in the following year 2002, to try ?Camel Humping? the public and once more slither their way out of FACING the truth,

http://www.geocities.com/macbot/imperative30.html

but ended up only showing that their 2001 BUTTE image, was actually NOT presented honestly in a true orthorectified image:

http://www.vgl.org/webfiles/mars/stereo … esults.htm

Maybe JPL thought most Americans would ?believe? their own pseudoscience public relations propaganda AND their pseudoscience geometric orthorectified image of 2001 since a new study revealed most American People science illiterates:

http://www.cnn.com/2002....ex.html

and the fact that since its acquisition in April 8, 2001 the ancillary geometry data for that image, as of this posting, was released finally 13 months after acquisition under a 6 month only embargo contract. That?s another broken promise in addition to the one which promised prior notifications and immediate release to the internet. Yet they withheld the image itself, not just the ancillary data, for 6 weeks to prepare the Middle Butte propaganda press release. They also had violated that prior notice promise here:

http://mpfwww.jpl.nasa.gov/mgs/cydonia.html

on 5 other occasions previously we know about for the FACE alone, and for more than 100 other Cydonia images (we currently know about and were also withheld beyond the 6 month private embargo period on a PUBLIC asset) on the other features in and around Cydonia. Yet with ALL those violations of that Cydonia promise, where are the NASA public studies on these issues?

No, NASA has produced NO public peer reviewed study on these highly artificially engineered geometric edifices that are placed in highly geometric places on the planet and in intelligent geometric relationships to each other. Despite more than a quarter century from the first Viking images which were wrongly dismissed as shadowed trickery NASA has avoided an HONEST and public SCIENTIFIC study of these features.

http://www.newfrontiersinscience.com/martianenigmas/

http://www.newfrontiersinscience.com/Archive....e.shtml

The only clear and unambiguous FACT from NASA/JPL is their own behavior to clearly and repeatedly avoiding having to take a public look at this extraordinary evidence and to perform an honest and public extraordinary investigation, as promised, of that evidence. Simply put, to actually perform the HONEST public science following the scientific methodology of modern times as its mandated and amended charter directs it to do.

More broken promises and in light of the following, this behavior is no longer tolerable in a branch of our Federal Government which reflects on the entire country, and this Administration as a whole. Because if ALL we are ever going to get about Cydonia on Mars is more and more of staying tuned to the same channel of lies and distorted data and illegally withheld data; as new NASA Administrator Sean O?Keefe has said, ?What?s the point??

Loss of the Mars Observer on August 22, 1993; the loss of the Mars Climate Orbiter and the loss of the Mars Polar Lander in 1999 ( all for various different reasons ) leaves serious holes in Mars Research capabilities and opportunities for the inclusion of public participation in this exciting discovery process. The two currently working spacecraft, Mars Global Surveyor and the Mars Odyssey can successfully fill those holes, provided they are publicly used for such. Simply honest public scientific investigation of these extraordinary pieces of evidence is owed to the American Taxpaying Public. Not only to make up for the nearly 2 Billion in lost tax dollars, but to encourage and re-engage the public in scientific study of the mysteries of our Universe in an honest and open manner that is the hallmark of a FREE Democracy.

Lately it seems the Russian space program has been more open and inclusive of the public than America?s NASA, and especially is pointed out by American Denis Tito?s trip to the ISS being fought tooth n nail by NASA here in the ?free democracy? of the USA.

The Mars Global Surveyor (MGS) has completed its primary and 2 extended mission phases of which we presently know about. This spacecraft can, and should be, immediately tasked to cover the entire Cydonia area in 1.5 meter/pixel HighRes imaging with immediate and public release of that data. The MGS, and its attendant camera (MOC) is NOT the private personal property of the Principle Investigator Dr. Mike Malin or his privately held company Malin Space Science Systems (MSSS). This a NATIONAL asset paid for by the taxpayers. It BELONGS to the American People.period.

To NOT task this spacecraft to fully and completely and publicly image Cydonia, now that it is free from its primary mission, is akin to saying it is Okey Dokey to let Enron tear out the guts of the White House and build President Bush an indoor baseball field to make up for the one they?ll be losing. This spacecraft BELONGS to us, the American People, it is way past time it was returned to us. The MGS and the Mars Odyssey spacecraft and its THEMIS camera system are National Assets that should be used to publicly fulfill NASA?s chartered mandate to search for evidence of LIFE off the Earth. The enigmatic ruins laying there in plain view in Cydonia are those pieces of evidence for not only life but also intelligent life.

It is past time for NASA to FACE up to its responsibilities to the American People and to conduct a publicly open and honest extraordinary investigation into these extraordinary pieces of evidence that humanity may have never been alone. We are owed that much for NASA to make the effort, and to make that effort in full public view sharing what we find with these National Assets as they are found in real-time.

To NOT do this means we have lost all trust in NASA itself to simply keep its word. To say what it means, and mean what it says. To keep the promises and policies it has made, and to NOT make promises and policy it has no intention of keeping by lying or misrepresenting itself to the American Public. In these troubled days of peril, to loose trust in the honesty and integrity of our government puts us all in a greater peril than we can presently imagine.

I sincerely hope that Dr. Roger Gibbs and the Mars Odyssey team make some Cydonia revelations when this news conference is held Thursday May 9 and Friday May 10. This time, RIGHT NOW, before the THEMIS camera system is INTENTIONALLY shut down later this year in a pre-planed hiatus from image acquisition, is a PRIME time to combine the very BEST of both spacecraft capabilities to produce TRUE COLOR images of Cydonia as seen by the human eye, to do a FULL INFRARED and SPECTRAL analysis of this area and combining and coordination of it with 1.5m/p HIGH RES images from the MGS MOC to produce for the public a proud and honest scientific look in an open manner in a Free Democracy showing the world what Leadership is all about.

If not, then NASA is simply not being honest with us in keeping promises to the Congress and American People, but also not being honest in compliance with the cherished scientific methodology of finding out the brutal truth of a thing. To do that, one must openly, publicly and thoroughly actually study that thing. NASA has YET to do that with Cydonia. They will also be doing deceased Dr. Carl Sagan?s memory a grace disservice in that his:

"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence." Quote also makes true that extraordinary evidence requires extraordinary investigation, and an extraordinary investigation requires an extraordinary review and discussion process that is publicly open and honest. NASA has failed to do this in more than 25 years of peeking at Mars, loosing spacecraft, and now having TWO (2) working spacecraft, one of which (MGS) is actually free from its primary mission. NOT giving Cydonia a full and extraordinary investigation is a gross violation of their mandate and also a pirating of Treasured National Assets for the private and personal politics and preferences of a very very few individuals as opposed to the thousands and thousands of people who HAVE been emailing, postal mailing, calling, faxing, and personally visiting NASA/JPL, media and political representatives DEMANDING that this area of Mars be FINALLY and OPENLY and IMMEDIATELY dealt with in an honest manner with immediate posting of that data collection as it happens to the www. Ultimately, we will settle for nothing less and the sooner NASA/JPL and the established mainstream realizes this, the quicker humanity can move on to personally visiting this mirror of humanity that has a constructed FACE staring back at us that is hauntingly familiar in our own morning mirrors.

Let's taunt a Billionaire to Mars ! ! ! Beats Begging.

Think out there act down here... NOW ! ! ! Have YOU ??

Give a High School kid a reason to care...a spacewalk.
Teach 'em a lesson in teamwork.
Teach 'em a lesson in humanity.

Bob... ;-{)

http://members.tripod.com/rhw007/

http://communities.msn.com/JPLMarsExploration

rhw007@twcny.rr.com

I respectfully request that you inquire into the above matters and to keep me informed of any answers that NASA/JPL or the Bush Administration should respond with. Please send copies and notices of all correspondence to my home address above.

Thank you.

Post lecture and Q/A essay:

The Odyssey to Mars lecture presented by Dr. Roger Gibbs, Mars Odyssey Project Manager at the JPL auditorium on Thursday May 9, 2002 was a severe disappointment to this Mars enthusiast. Even having missed the first part of the lecture series and only able to tune in as it ended and opened up to the Questions & Answers (Q/A) period from the audience I certainly got a reading of the current new manager and the ?new? direction of the mission. My connection froze and the computer locked up when the white haired gentleman asked him about some squarish object in a previous infrared image right when the good Dr. was about to answer, so I didn?t get to hear his reply to that. I did hear some of his replies to other anomalous things and he was asked to make a ?take? on it but declined.

I also noticed his lack of understanding that the Odyssey THEMIS camera is entirely capable of, but more importantly is designed to acquire a full five spectrum visible light image AND a full nine band spectral infrared image AT THE SAME TIME speaks volumes about how ?in the loop? this particular previous assistant project manager may have been as compared to the present position he finds himself in as THE primary Project Manager for the Odyssey Mission. This is a very important and fundamental point that cannot be understated. If this gentlemen, who seemed generally honest, is a little at a loss as to specific capabilities of THEMIS image acquisition, transmission and storage of data; had been kept out of the inner loop previously for whatever ?political? reasons, it certainly PROVES the point that THAT particular practice is not in the mission?s best interests, nor in OUR best interests either. This gentleman should KNOW those specific capabilities, or at least have a copy of the PDF file here:

http://mars.jpl.nasa.gov/odyssey/pip/20 … y-PIP2.pdf

handy. He might have a hand out under the lectern where each instrument?s capabilities are tabulated for him. Might help him answer SOME of those perplexing questions from the audience. Which audience is ONLY going to get even more victorious and even more concentrated forever on Cydonia until NASA/JPL comes up with more than its continued inane and INCORRECT answers. The Cydonia Face is NOT the result of ?light and shadow trickery?, the THEMIS absolutely CAN acquire full visible and full infrared spectrum of Cydonia at the SAME time, and the ?calibration? period was finished a long long time ago for this THEMIS instrument.

It was one of the reasons the previous manager gave for delay of releasing images!!! What? You STILL haven?t ?calibrated? that thing for full true color images and full spectrum infrared? Which bands are you releasing each ?daily? image as being ?calibrated? and which bands remain ?un-calibrated? that you cannot release? I CAN tell you this dear Dr. Gibbs, we are most certainly NOT going to wait the next 10 years as you implied many times in your answers to the Q/A for this data. THAT is simply unacceptable. period AND exclamation point!

It is unfortunate he did not even know when the first scheduled REQUIRED by contract data dump from THEMIS would be due later this year. It?s August 19, 2002 btw for your information. The data for the ENTIRE mission from the THEMIS is due up to the 30th day from official Mission Mapping Start which was February 19, 2002. Month 2 + 6 month ?embargo? = month 8 August 19, 2002. These are things, as Mission Manager, is his job to see happen on time, and in compliance with contract and policy. I also believe it is his job as Mission Manager to have some oversight as to ?targets of opportunity? that are of great and important public interest, above and beyond primary mapping mission objectives. The Cydonia region is most definitively one of those areas where his office should have made assurances that the FULL capabilities of the entire Odyssey instruments, especially the THEMIS system, were brought to bear on that area on that flyover! As he pointed out, and as is reasonable, to have the spacecraft pull ROTO ( Roll Over Targeting Observations ) which bring the instrument off-nadir would be foolish and dangerous before the mission is complete. HOWEVER, this Cydonia image recently WAS a nadir acquired image and was therefore FULLY capable of full use of ALL the sensors of THEMIS in both infrared and visible systems. If this did not happen and only the one of 14 possible bands were read, then THAT was a gross mismanagement of spacecraft capabilities and an opportunity to show this country the scientific methodology of how TRUE SCIENCE is supposed to be done. We wonder why Americans are so science illiterate? Maybe its because some of our ?best? science seems to be a mite behind the 8 ball itself and a few bottles short of a six-pack?

Again, Dr. Gibbs seemed an honest gentleman placed in a situation answering specific technical questions that should have had the principle investigators on hand to answer. They were not, for whatever reasons. I think he did the best he could, but felt a mite nervous about it. I will grant that there was a true mystery they acknowledge as to major channels being dust free while other nearby channels were not and still covered in dust. Cause? Acknowledged as being there, true phenomenon, and absolutely real and undeniable but as to the cause it remains presently unknown. That tactic would work with ALL the information about Cydonia too, try it. Show us EVERYTHING you have about Cydonia tomorrow night at Pasadena City College.

It?s PAST time to let it all out, even if you cannot explain it. That?s what the rest of the team, us the American Public and the world in general, is for. For without the public, YOU have no team, we are as much a part of the exploration as a pad rat checking the area one last time before ignition of the rocket to send a probe on its way, a collective hand of humanity reaching out to take a tiny grasp at understanding the vastness and mystery of the Universe beyond our tiny blue ball called Earth. Share the results with the rest of the team out here on Cydonia, ALL of it. Because I, and the many thousands and thousands of us out here will NEVER let you forget sir, we are NOT going away, and we will NOT quit inquiring and holding you to give HONEST answers to this enigmatic area. Breathe-in, breathe-out, get used to it and simply comply and tell the whole truth and nothing but the truth because we CAN handle it.

Let's taunt a Billionaire to Mars ! ! ! Beats Begging.

Think out there act down here... NOW ! ! ! Have YOU ??

Give a High School kid a reason to care...a spacewalk.
Teach 'em a lesson in teamwork.
Teach 'em a lesson in humanity.

Bob... ;-{)

http://members.tripod.com/rhw007/

http://communities.msn.com/JPLMarsExploration

Adrian · 2002-05-20 02:35:09

Thread moved to a more suitable forum.

rhw007 · 2002-05-23 01:41:07

Thank you Adrian. I am new to this forum. Hope to return often as I can, but time and other commitments ensare us all. Thanx again. its nearly dawn I must sleep.

dicktice · 2004-09-15 10:24:01

Here's a book to read and discuss. I have it, and it's a real gem of a source book, up to August, 2003.

[Quote, from Google]

A Traveler's Guide to Mars
by William K. Hartmann
2003
paperback - 468 pages
from Workman Publishing

Summary - (Nov 20, 2003) Over the last few hundred years, humans have been exploring the planet Mars - first through telescopes, and more recently from orbit and on the ground. During this time we've gone from complete ignorance to a fairly deep understanding of the Red Planet. William K. Hartmann has been a scientist on several missions to Mars, and in his latest book, "A Traveler's Guide to Mars," he details our current understanding of the geologic process that have shaped the planet.

Full Story - Over the last few hundred years, humans have been exploring the planet Mars - first through telescopes, and more recently from orbit and on the ground. During this time we've gone from complete ignorance to a fairly deep understanding of the Red Planet. William K. Hartmann has been a scientist on several missions to Mars, and in his latest book, "A Traveler's Guide to Mars," he details our current understanding of the geologic process that have shaped the planet.
First, a little history about William Hartmann. He cut his Martian teeth as a scientist on the Mariner 9 mission, which was the first spacecraft to map Mars in detail. He was part of the team that discovered craters, ancient riverbeds and volcanoes. He was an early contributor to the widely accepted theory that the Moon formed when a Mars-sized planet crashed into the Earth. And he's currently studying the data retrieved by the Mars Global Surveyor.
This guy knows his Mars.
"A Traveler's Guide to Mars" traces our understanding of Mars, starting with the early sketches by Huygens and Percival Lowell (who incorrectly thought that Martians had built a complex system of canals to conserve the planet's water). When Mariner 9 arrived at Mars in the early 1970s, it complete revised our understanding of the planet, showing that it was dry and pummeled with ancient asteroid impact craters. The history section of the book is pretty short.
The bulk of the book explores the planet, feature by feature, and describes how planetary scientists arrived at their current understanding about what's going on. Scientists believe certain areas of Mars are unchanged for 4.5 billion years, while others have been under constant change until recently. Hartmann presents the evidence and shows you how to spot the clues and think like a planetary scientist.
I think this is one of my favorite aspects of the book. Time after time Hartmann presents the challenge: what caused this formation? what's going on in this crater? how long was this river flowing? And then he presents the evidence and the decision-making process that planetary scientists followed to arrive at their current conclusions. And if nobody has a clue, he admits that too. There are plenty of mysteries left on Mars - hopefully new spacecraft and missions to Mars will help fill in pieces of the puzzle.
The book is broken up with one/two-page sections called "My Martian Chronicles", which detail Hartmann's personal experiences exploring Mars through the eyes of Mariner 9 and Mars Global Surveyor. I really enjoyed this personal touch. Since Hartmann is an experienced fiction writer, his style is very casual and accessible. Easy reading for the amateur space enthusiast.
I was really impressed with "A Traveler's Guide to Mars". It's given me a new understanding of the planet. Definitely a handy book to have on hand as a new fleet of spacecraft are about to arrive at the Red Planet.
[Unquote]

Julius Caeser · 2004-09-16 12:34:59

Recent studies and i think that Hartmann himself has hinted this in his book about Mars is that the planet could be slowly emerging fom an ice age !any comments about this matter?

Shaun Barrett · 2004-09-16 20:50:24

Hi Julius!
I haven't read William Hartmann's book, though I intend to, but I believe the idea of martian ice ages is connected with the fact that the martian axial tilt is unstable.
From memory, the tilt can vary from zero to 35 degrees over intervals of hundreds of thousands of years, sometimes ranging as far as 60 degrees (! ) over periods of millions of years. The absence of a large stabilising moon is cited as the reason for this variability.
When the axis is tilted at an angle of 45 degrees or more, large areas around the summer pole experience no darkness for months at a time, with no sunlight at the opposite pole for a similar period. Presumably, large areas of today's circumpolar subsurface permafrost would melt under these circumstances, which would have a major effect on the climate.

Apparently the layer of frozen CO2 at the south pole on Mars has been thinning visibly in recent years and may be an indication the planet is gradually warming up. Whether this has been associated with any noticeable change in the axial tilt over the last 100 years, I don't know. I've certainly never read anything to that effect.
Of course, the CO2 thinning may be a small and very temporary localised effect of some other minor climatic cycle we have yet to recognise. It may well reverse itself in a few years. Who knows?!

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#1 2002-05-19 23:04:45

Re: NASAâ€™s Martian Watershed - An honest look at where NASA and we are.

#2 2002-05-20 02:35:09

Re: NASAâ€™s Martian Watershed - An honest look at where NASA and we are.

#3 2002-05-23 01:41:07

Re: NASAâ€™s Martian Watershed - An honest look at where NASA and we are.

#4 2004-09-15 10:24:01

Re: NASAâ€™s Martian Watershed - An honest look at where NASA and we are.

#5 2004-09-16 12:34:59

Re: NASAâ€™s Martian Watershed - An honest look at where NASA and we are.

#6 2004-09-16 20:50:24

Re: NASAâ€™s Martian Watershed - An honest look at where NASA and we are.

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