Huge water ice reservoirs found on Mars!

Adrian · 2002-05-26 08:32:29

As posted on the front page:

Stop press! Next Thursday, NASA will announce the discovery of huge water ice oceans on Mars. Lying less than a metre beneath the surface south of 60? latitude, the water ice reservoirs if melted would form an ocean 500m deep. NASA insiders believe these findings could result in a manned landing within 20 years.

Phobos · 2002-05-26 11:24:18

Awesome!! In my opinion that's a better discovery then finding Martian life. I hope the readings don't turn out to be some anonomaly or screwed up calibration error of the instruments, it's almost to good to be true! :0

Alexander Sheppard · 2002-05-26 12:21:32

This is amazing... this has truly awesome potential for the whole terraforming gig. I mean, if this is true, it means we can terraform Mars, no doubt about it. There may be some deficincies-- nitrogen being the most obvious-- but if there is that much water, there is no question that we could get some kind of biosphere there given the right techniques.

Josh Cryer · 2002-05-26 18:16:29

Hehehe! Be prepared to keep an eye on NASAs TV schedule, they're known to push things up if things get leaked.

But yeah, this is great news, although not unexpected to a lot of scientists. There were only two options to where the water could have gone, space or underground...

rhw007 · 2002-05-26 21:52:52

NEW NEWS OCEANS ON MARS

http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/sci/te … 009318.stm

Water, even LIQUID water on Mars was stated at the very first Odyssey briefing, the May 9 lecture and of course, for YEARS already by members of the Cydonia Village who do NOT need someone else ( in this case the BBC ), to actually THINK for themselves and to LOOK at the data that is there and come to their OWN intellectual conclusions rather than dance at the end of someone's puppet strings.

LIQUID WATER ON MARS ! ! !

http://home.thirdage.com/Teaching/rhw007/M0901354.gif

http://www.geocities.com/rhw007_y/

It's also been SEEPING out ALL over the place, if one bothers to look:

Cydonian Villagers Effrain and Palermo SEEPS:

http://home.attbi.com/~palermo63/Mars_A … mages.html

The Mars lecture series by Dr. Gibbs let 'slip' in the Q n A session that they ALREADY HAVE ACQUIRED infrared nighttime images of the Cydonia area, note plural images! This upcoming May 30 news conference should have more and LOTS more than simple H20 'findings'. Its been found and mapped in gross distributions. While I am sure that more 'detailed' water maps have been done in the interim since the March news conference, we ALREADY knew in March that there was LOTS n LOTS of water that NASA/JPL were finally ready to admit being there. Sorta like Dr. Mikey n Dr. Kenny having to come kicking and screaming:

http://www.space.com/science....22.html

http://www.space.com/science....28.html

NEW NEWS OCEANS ON MARS???

No, water and oceans of it, is not 'new' news to those who have followed the issues and thought for themselves. So one would hope that REAL NEW DATA like the multiple nighttime infrared images of the Cydonia Mensae Area would be released, ALONG with the raw and ancillary data this coming May 30, 2002. Along with the ancillary data from the April 2002 Cydonia Mensae Face and D & M Pyramid images including WHICH filter band, of the 14 that were available and ALREADY FULLY on the sensor, was actually commanded to be read by the computer and tramsitted to Earth. Also an interesting answer would be to find out what happened to the data that was on the rest of the sensor bands as it passed over this enigmatic area. Why wasn't it released with the Public Release of the image itself? Will we have to wait ANOTHER THRITEEN ( 13 ! ! ! ) months to receive the ancillary data from the April 2002 Odyssey Cydonia image like we had to wait for the April 2001 Cydonia Mars Gloabal Surveyor MOC data???!!! There is only a 6 month LEGAL 'embargo' period contracted with these 'private principle investigators', so why the extra delay?

Also what would be really really NEW news would be a TRUE COLOR image of the 'life forms' found at the poles:

http://www.curiousnotions.com/mars/index.html

Sure would be nice if we could all LOOK and STUDY some TRUE COLOR images of these enigmatic features!!! Now THAT would be NEW news!

And of course TRUE COLOR and the nighttime infrared images of the Cydonia Mensae area, if acquired the right longitude and latitude would help SETTLE the ultimate question and hypothesis:

That the following is an ARTIFCIAL exhaust vent that is CURRENTLY active in the middle of DOWNTOWN CYDONIA:

http://members.tripod.com/rhw007....nia.htm

Now THAT is one 'crazy' hypothesis I am sure many are thinking. NASA/JPL has ALREADY ADMITTED that they ALREADY have data which could confirm or deny that hypothesis. Between the nighttime infrareds and the TRUE COLOR images of this feature in this area of MARS we could have all the best available data to examine this extraordinary claim.

Dr. Sagan stated that "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence." Well also true is that extraordinary evidence requires extraordinary investigation, and an extraordinary investigation requires an extraordinary review and discussion process that is publicly open and honest.

The BIGGEST question that remains to be answered this Thursday on May 30, 2002 in the second 'official' Odyssey news conference; is EXACTLY how honest, and how open, and how encompassing, and how brutally truthful that conference will be and whether the DAWGs of JPL can be kept at bay. Despite promises made and already broken, one can remain hopeful that maybe, finally, they will get past the Brookings Mentality and let every one discover that we are NOT still living in the Dark Ages when humanity was thought to be:

1. All alone

2. On a flat Earth

3. At the center of the Universe

4. As it revolves around us

5. Riding on the back of a giant turtle

We'll all breathe-in, breathe-out and get over realizing that the first item is just as false as the rest. That can ONLY come if NASA/JPL decides to REVEAL the TRUTH and ALL, repeat ALL the DATA it has gathered and the ancillary information with it this Thursday.

That's multiple nighttime infrared images of the Cydonia Mensae area and TRUE COLOR images of MARS, MULTIPLE areas where there are indications of LIFE, both intelligent and vegetable forms.

We'll see. But water on Mars? Where are those who pooh-poohed the idea before and railed against the images? Where are the die-hard CO2 fanatics now that the DATA is being recognized for what it always was, water?

So many more people would be able to THINK for themselves and come to their OWN intellectual conclusions if NASA/JPL and its 'principle investigators' were simply MORE honest and open with the data it is acquiring. To re-iterate an important and very pertinent and valid point, the Mars Odyssey spacecraft and the Mars Global Surveyor spacecraft are NOT the private toys of these folks. There are OUR national assets, and on this Memorial Day Holiday, it is ever more poignant to remember what it has cost this country for that to be. Soldiers die for an HONEST government. Let us have it.

Let's taunt a Billionaire to Mars ! ! ! Beats Begging.

Think out there act down here... NOW ! ! ! Have YOU ??

Give a High School kid a reason to care...a spacewalk.
Teach 'em a lesson in teamwork.
Teach 'em a lesson in humanity.

Bob... ;-{)

http://members.tripod.com/rhw007/

http://communities.msn.com/JPLMarsExploration

Shaun Barrett · 2002-05-26 22:16:50

Hi Adrian!
This ice-on-Mars news refers to "south of 60 degrees latitude".
I'm confused (my natural state, according to my wife) because I can't find which hemisphere they're talking about!
I know there appears to be near-surface ice between 60 degrees south and the south pole, but what does this "new" news refer to?
If they're talking about the northern hemisphere (which I guess they are), do they mean ice has been found south of 60 degrees north and approaching the equator? If so, is there none between 60 degrees north and the polar cap itself?
Or do we have to wait for the press conference before we get to find out?
:0

Josh Cryer · 2002-05-27 01:02:37

As far as I know, there hasn't been a report about the quantity of ice on Mars, only a few photos have been released (with regard to GRS). For all we know, the images of hydrogen could have been water frost, you know? Thursday the scientists are going to confirm just how much is there in the southern hemisphere. And after one or two sesons, we'll have a very accurate image of how much water is really there.

C M Edwards · 2002-05-27 07:21:52

As I understand it, only the southern hemisphere has been surveyed with the requisite coverage to make a claim like this. This surprises me, because the south has more highlands than the north. I expected this would impede the even distribution of water over wide areas, yet here we are talking about oceans.

Hmm...

If there's an "ocean" in the south, I can't wait to see what's in the north.

CME

GOM · 2002-05-27 14:31:29

Will we have to wait ANOTHER THRITEEN ( 13 ! ! ! ) months to receive the ancillary data from the April 2002 Odyssey Cydonia image like we had to wait for the April 2001 Cydonia Mars Gloabal Surveyor MOC data???!!! There is only a 6 month LEGAL 'embargo' period contracted with these 'private principle investigators', so why the extra delay?

Why indeed.

Perhaps they need a little extra time to "clean up" a few of the more troublesome pix....

Josh Cryer · 2002-05-28 03:00:53

The Face on Mars image was released only 2 months after imaging began... I really and truely doubt it was... well... modified. Especially since raw PDS data is, well, almost impossible to ?fake.? If you could do it I would be very impressed.

rhw007 · 2002-05-28 09:10:22

I really and truely doubt it was... well... modified. Especially since raw PDS data is, well, almost impossible to ?fake.? If you could do it I would be very impressed.

Well we already KNOW that the April 2001 FACE image released from the MGS MOC on May 25 2001 that was 6 weeks AFTER acquisition was 'skewed' and improperly orthorectified once we got the raw and ancillary data 13 months later. How will we KNOW about the April 2002 Cydonia Odyssey image UNLESS they RELEASE the raw and ancillary data WITH the image????

No one is denying them their ' 6 month embargo ' on data and images they withhold for 6 months, BUT on an ALREADY RELEASED public relations release image, WHY HOLD THE ANCILLARY AND RAW DATA BACK???

And also 6 months is supposed to be 6 months. period!

Let's taunt a Billionaire to Mars ! ! ! Beats Begging.

Think out there act down here... NOW ! ! ! Have YOU ??

Give a High School kid a reason to care...a spacewalk.
Teach 'em a lesson in teamwork.
Teach 'em a lesson in humanity.

Bob... ;-{)

http://home.thirdage.com/Teaching/rhw007/index.html

http://members.tripod.com/rhw007/

http://communities.msn.com/JPLMarsExploration

Adrian · 2002-05-28 09:43:33

First - this is a thread about water ice reservoirs on Mars. It is not about the putative Face on Mars. I have started a new thread about this in the 'Life on Mars' forum (I didn't want to put it there, but there's nowhere else for it to go).

GOM · 2002-05-28 10:51:56

Especially since raw PDS data is, well, almost impossible to ?fake.? If you could do it I would be very impressed.

I guess you won't be impressed then.

I can't do anything with raw PDS data, but it would surprise me a little to hear that nobody has that capability....

GOM · 2002-05-28 10:59:58

Now we have a "flood" of information coming out....

* * * * *
Tuesday, 28 May, 2002, 15:56 GMT 16:56 UK
Mars ice could flood planet

By Dr David Whitehouse
BBC News Online science editor

Scientists have revealed the full technical details of their discovery of vast reservoirs of ice beneath the Martian surface.

So much ice has been found in the polar regions that if it were to melt it would deluge the planet.

The ice may stretch far underground to regions where it is warm, raising the possibility of warm caverns of meltwater in which scientists hesitantly speculate conditions could be suitable for life.

But they caution that we may never know until we have rock and ice samples returned to Earth by an unmanned probe for analysis.

Dr William Boynton
He regards the sensational findings of ice below the surface of Mars as third time lucky.

"Twice I was close to this," he told BBC News Online. "We detected the subsurface ice using an instrument on Mars Odyssey that was also on the Mars Observer spacecraft.

"That probe reached Mars 10 years ago, but blew up when it got there - so, we could have found [the ice] then."

Quick start

And Dr Boynton could also have found it with the ill-fated Mars Polar Lander spacecraft. It crashed into the planet's polar regions in 1999.

"It would have landed on precisely the place where we now see the ice. Polar Lander had a scoop that would have been able to dig and reach the ice so just think what we could have seen if that mission had been a success."

Fortunately, Mars Odyssey has been a resounding success.

"We started seeing the signal from the ice within a few days of starting our survey of the planet," he said.

"We saw ice where we had expected to. The signal was so strong it just knocked us over."

Lost oceans

The Gamma-Ray Spectrometer, one of several sensors on board Mars Odyssey able to find evidence of ice reserves, is only able to look about a metre (three feet) beneath the surface.

Mars water facts
Ice crystals less than one metre (three feet) below Mars surface
Located south of 60 degrees latitude
Melted, would create planet-wide ocean 500 metres deep
Nasa may commit to landing in less than 20 years
"We can see an awful lot of water there," said Dr Boynton, "but why should it stop there? It may go down 10 metres, a 100 metres or even kilometres."

The underground ice solves one of the deepest and longstanding mysteries about the Red Planet: where did the water go?

All over its surface there is evidence that in the distant past copious amounts of water flowed. We can see dried up river lakes, ancient shorelines, and vast, empty canyons.

Now, scientists know where all this water has gone - it is frozen deep underground.

"This is where the lost oceans have gone," Dr Boynton told BBC News Online.

It has been found exactly where it was predicted - Poleward of 60 degrees south, where the average temperature and soil properties would allow ice to form.

Possibility for life

If Mars were to become much warmer for some reason and the ice melted, it would drench the planet to an average depth of between half and one kilometre.

But what of life?

Boynton: Impressed with results

"Well, it's a little hard to say," speculated Dr Boynton. "If the ice is deep enough, there could be regions where it gets warm enough to melt and that would mean pockets of warm water underground.

"That would be very exciting - but we will not know for sure until we bring back a sample for analysis."

And the Mars Odyssey data has provided another ironic twist in the history of exploring the Red Planet.

In 1976, two sophisticated American spacecraft, Vikings 1 and 2, landed on the planet. They scooped up some soil and looked for life. Most scientists believe they found none. But Viking 2 may have come close.

"Our findings indicate that perhaps just a metre below Viking 2, there may have been a lot of ice. It may have got so far yet so close to finding ice on Mars," said Dr Boynton.

And the scientist who endured two failed missions and 17 years to solve one of the greatest planetary mysteries chuckles to himself.

Josh Cryer · 2002-05-30 03:13:10

Aaaaaaaah.

Yesterday I went to check out NASAs TV schedule, and it said something about an Odyssey Press Conference tomorrow (today actually, since it's already Thursday the 30th). However, when I check the schedule now, the press conference is gone. Did it get moved up?

Bill White · 2002-05-30 08:24:15

Josh - Space.com reports as follows:

Odyssey scientists were ready to report their findings on Thursday at a NASA Space Science Update briefing in Washington, D.C. However, over eager reporters hijacked the announcement, breaking embargoed information, thereby forcing the space agency to cancel the briefing.

"Why" this was a valid reason to cancel the press conference remains unclear me.

Josh Cryer · 2002-05-30 08:40:04

Argh! Why did they do that? It makes no sense! Holy crap. I am offically annoyed now.

Thanks Bill, I've been watching NTV any chance I can get just to see... now I know.

Ugh.

GOM · 2002-05-30 10:43:22

Josh - Space.com reports as follows:
Odyssey scientists were ready to report their findings on Thursday at a NASA Space Science Update briefing in Washington, D.C. However, over eager reporters hijacked the announcement, breaking embargoed information, thereby forcing the space agency to cancel the briefing.
"Why" this was a valid reason to cancel the press conference remains unclear me.

"Forcing"?

Give me a break.

Are they really that childish???

What a weird twist to an important story....

Josh Cryer · 2002-06-01 06:24:12

Here is something from Science magazine that I have a few questions about.

Using the Gamma-Ray Spectrometer onboard Mars Odyssey, we have identified two regions near the poles that are enriched in hydrogen. The data indicate the presence of a subsurface layer enriched in hydrogen overlain by a hydrogen-poor layer. The thickness of the upper layer decreases with decreasing distance to the pole, ranging from a column density of about 150 g/cm2 at ?42? latitude to about 40 g/cm2 at ?77?. The hydrogen-rich regions correlate with regions of predicted ice stability. We suggest that ice, with an abundance of 35% ? 15% by weight, is the host of the hydrogen in the subsurface layer.

Source: http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/rapidpdf/1073722v1.pdf (you may need to sign up)

Seems like GRS actually had a press conference about it too (of course, since it was cancelled, they just put it on their website).

The amount of hydrogen detected indicates 20 to 50 percent ice by mass in the lower layer. Because rock has a greater density than ice, this amount is more than 50 percent water ice by volume. This means that if one heated a full bucket of this ice-rich polar soil it would result in more than half a bucket of water. The gamma ray spectrometer suite is unique in that it senses the composition below the surface to a depth as great as one meter. By combining the different type of data from the instrument, the team has concluded the hydrogen is not distributed uniformly over the upper meter but is much more concentrated in a lower layer beneath the top-most surface. The team also found that the hydrogen-rich regions are located in areas that are known to be very cold and where ice should be stable. This relationship between high hydrogen content with regions of predicted ice stability led the team to conclude that the hydrogen is, in fact, in the form of ice. The ice-rich layer is about 60 centimeters (two feet) beneath the surface at 60 degrees south latitude, and gets to within about 30 centimeters (one foot) of the surface at 75 degrees south latitude.

Source: http://grs.lpl.arizona.edu/results/presscon2/

So, with this information, how can we calculate how much water ice is there by land area? Assuming between ?42? and ?77? latitude?

Shaun Barrett · 2002-09-14 08:01:05

Sorry, Josh! I hadn't seen this question of yours until today.
I haven't given it a lot of thought, but the information looks a little scanty to me at first glance. It's not immediately obvious (at least to me! ) how to get a fair approximation for the amount of water we're talking about. If any flashes of inspiration occur, I'll be sure to come back to you on that one.

What I was wanting to know at this point, relates to the Martian northern hemisphere.
The CO2 "hood", as I think it's known, which forms over much of the north of Mars during winter, has been blamed for the lack of data about water there.
But surely that "hood" must be nearly gone by now. Has anyone heard anything yet about results from Odyssey in the Vastitas Borealis area? You would imagine that, since it's lower and is probably where the ocean used to be, and since it doesn't get as hot as the southern hemisphere in summer, it should have even MORE water ice near the surface.

Shaun Barrett · 2002-12-10 03:48:19

Well, at long last, we might be getting some news this week about Odyssey's search for water in the northern hemisphere.

The news, which is supposed to be good, is to be released at the annual meeting of the American Geophysical Union in San Francisco.

See this site for more details.

Byron · 2002-12-10 06:51:03

So far, it's looking awfully tantalizing...

In mid-October the frozen carbon dioxide, which seasonally caps Mars' north pole, evaporated enough to give Odyssey's scientists their first chance to look there for ice. "We are really excited about what we are seeing in the north polar region of Mars. With the seasonal carbon dioxide frost gone, we can see evidence of massive amounts of water ice in the soil, even more than we found in the south," said Dr. William Boynton, principal investigator for Odyssey's gamma-ray spectrometer suite at the University of Arizona, Tucson.

B

Shaun Barrett · 2003-01-25 19:46:33

When the word came out of NASA about the vast quantities of water ice in Mars' southern hemisphere, there were many news articles about it all over the world.
Now that the northern hemisphere has been found to have even more water ice than the southern hemisphere, we get a brief note from Dr.William Boynton of the University of Arizona ... and that's it! That's all she wrote!!

Doesn't that seem odd to anyone here, other than me?

The highly celebrated news about the southern hemisphere included scientific estimates that they'd found enough water to submerge the whole of Mars to a depth of hundreds of metres. If you add in the larger amounts of water now evident in the north, we must be looking at enough to theoretically put Mars under more than a kilometre of water!! And that's the entire surface.
If you consider that this water would accumulate in the low-lying regions, i.e. the northern plains and impact basins such as Hellas, which probably comprise about 40% of the Martian surface, the depth of an ocean on a terraformed Mars would average something like 1/0.4 kms or more. That's over 2.5 kilometres! (Or about 8250 ft, if you prefer.) And that might not include the ice we can see at the poles.

How come we haven't heard much more about this than the scant references made to it so far?
Can it really be that, because the southern hemisphere water-ice news was leaked before the NASA press conference, and because reporters asked too many excited questions about the enhanced prospects for life on Mars, NASA is now sulking and rationing further news?!

It makes you wonder, doesn't it?
???

New Mars Forums

Announcement

#1 2002-05-26 08:32:29

Re: Huge water ice reservoirs found on Mars!

#2 2002-05-26 11:24:18

Re: Huge water ice reservoirs found on Mars!

#3 2002-05-26 12:21:32

Re: Huge water ice reservoirs found on Mars!

#4 2002-05-26 18:16:29

Re: Huge water ice reservoirs found on Mars!

#5 2002-05-26 21:52:52

Re: Huge water ice reservoirs found on Mars!

#6 2002-05-26 22:16:50

Re: Huge water ice reservoirs found on Mars!

#7 2002-05-27 01:02:37

Re: Huge water ice reservoirs found on Mars!

#8 2002-05-27 07:21:52

Re: Huge water ice reservoirs found on Mars!

#9 2002-05-27 14:31:29

Re: Huge water ice reservoirs found on Mars!

#10 2002-05-28 03:00:53

Re: Huge water ice reservoirs found on Mars!

#11 2002-05-28 09:10:22

Re: Huge water ice reservoirs found on Mars!

#12 2002-05-28 09:43:33

Re: Huge water ice reservoirs found on Mars!

#13 2002-05-28 10:51:56

Re: Huge water ice reservoirs found on Mars!

#14 2002-05-28 10:59:58

Re: Huge water ice reservoirs found on Mars!

#15 2002-05-30 03:13:10

Re: Huge water ice reservoirs found on Mars!

#16 2002-05-30 08:24:15

Re: Huge water ice reservoirs found on Mars!

#17 2002-05-30 08:40:04

Re: Huge water ice reservoirs found on Mars!

#18 2002-05-30 10:43:22

Re: Huge water ice reservoirs found on Mars!

#19 2002-06-01 06:24:12

Re: Huge water ice reservoirs found on Mars!

#20 2002-09-14 08:01:05

Re: Huge water ice reservoirs found on Mars!

#21 2002-12-10 03:48:19

Re: Huge water ice reservoirs found on Mars!

#22 2002-12-10 06:51:03

Re: Huge water ice reservoirs found on Mars!

#23 2003-01-25 19:46:33

Re: Huge water ice reservoirs found on Mars!

Board footer