New Mars Forums

Official discussion forum of The Mars Society and MarsNews.com

You are not logged in.

Announcement

Announcement: We've recently made changes to our user database and have removed inactive and spam users. If you can not login, please re-register.

#1 2004-04-02 12:53:18

JammerG55
Member
From: Shasta lake ca, 7 hrs north of
Registered: 2004-02-18
Posts: 46

Re: water water every where and nota drop to drink. - Water any one?

[color=#000000:post_uid2]I would like to know "every ones" opinion to the presence of, or lack there of, water. and what possibily happened to it.[/color:post_uid2]


The sky is the limit...unless you live in a cave big_smile

Offline

#2 2004-04-02 14:17:07

SBird
Member
Registered: 2004-03-10
Posts: 490

Re: water water every where and nota drop to drink. - Water any one?

[color=#000000:post_uid0]I voted for Other.  Most of the water's probably frozen but there are probably large amounts of briny water that is intermittently liquid.[/color:post_uid0]

Offline

#3 2004-04-02 14:18:51

rgcarnes
Member
From: In the country near Rolla Miss
Registered: 2002-02-04
Posts: 111

Re: water water every where and nota drop to drink. - Water any one?

[color=#000000:post_uid0]All three phases of water should be available, solid, liquid, and vapor, at some time and place on Mars.  I also suggest that all three are detectable from orbit by at least one technique.[/color:post_uid0]


Rex G. Carnes

If the Meek Inherit the Earth, Where Do All the Bold Go?

Offline

#4 2004-04-02 14:21:54

Rxke
Member
From: Belgium
Registered: 2003-11-03
Posts: 3,658

Re: water water every where and nota drop to drink. - Water any one?

[color=#000000:post_uid0]Hard to fill in the poll... I think there's still lots of h20 on Mars, underground, solid, some liquid...

Also quite a lot sokid on the poles (duh)

And sometimes, brief occasions of liquid trickles in certain spots that sublimes away almost instantaneously (hope that's the right English spelling, huh.)

But probably very briny in nature, so not a drop to drink... indeed.[/color:post_uid0]


ExoMars' launcher's 2nd stage is probably en route to Mars. Unsterilised... yikes

Offline

#5 2004-04-02 19:00:02

Shaun Barrett
Member
From: Cairns, Queensland, Australia
Registered: 2001-12-28
Posts: 2,843

Re: water water every where and nota drop to drink. - Water any one?

[color=#000000:post_uid14]I noted, in one of the reports about methane in the martian atmosphere, that one of the scientists concerned or associated with the work thinks ponds or marshes of liquid brine are quite possible, or even probable, on the surface of Mars today.
    I wish I could remember where I saw it. It was very recently - a matter of only a few days ago.
    Attitudes to Mars are certainly changing, aren't they?
                                       smile[/color:post_uid14]


The word 'aerobics' came about when the gym instructors got together and said: If we're going to charge $10 an hour, we can't call it Jumping Up and Down.   - Rita Rudner

Offline

#6 2004-04-02 21:53:12

atomoid
Member
From: Santa Cruz, CA
Registered: 2004-02-13
Posts: 252

Re: water water every where and nota drop to drink. - Water any one?

[color=#000000:post_uid0]all phases of water and lots and lots of brine...

its interesting how when driving on hwy 80 north of Reno Nevada, in the hot dry summer through barren desert wasteland there is an expansive wet marsh of briney water that just doesnt seem to ever dry up, perhaps its a water table or something because its so hot and windy there it should evaporate away in just days, but it stays wet somehow and the plants and birds just love it. we know brine lowers the freezing point, but does brine signifficantly retard evaporation as well?

I'd assume that there might be anologs to such a desert marsh on Mars, perhaps the briney water table is dusted over and not very noticeable by visual cues, but there might be other ways of inferring the existance of such a marsh...[/color:post_uid0]


"I think it would be a good idea". - Mahatma Gandhi, when asked what he thought of Western civilization.

Offline

#7 2004-04-18 11:58:36

Fey
Member
From: NorthCoast, OH
Registered: 2004-04-18
Posts: 3

Re: water water every where and nota drop to drink. - Water any one?

[color=#000000:post_uid0]:hm:

Is seeing believing? View some images at this link -

RoverPics

I believe that MANY pics from JPL are touched -up: areas blurred, pixelated, wiped out, completely changed, etc. I like the scientific arguments for or against liquid or flowing water on mars, but I like pictures even better. Imagination, need to believe, paranoia, educated evaluation? Just take a look.   And have FUN!:laugh:

(Images at RoverPics site can be zoomed and comments can be left.Names of images originally given on JPL/Rover Site are at bottom of pics. )[/color:post_uid0]


Curiosity is the cure for Ignorance. There is no cure for Curiosity!

Offline

#8 2004-04-18 17:39:03

rstones8
Member
From: Orlando, FL
Registered: 2004-03-21
Posts: 37

Re: water water every where and nota drop to drink. - Water any one?

[color=#000000:post_uid0]Some interesting pictures there, some of that stuff does look like it may have been blurred out, especially between the rocks in pictures 3 and 4. And also a very intriguing object in picture 11.

But I just can't see why NASA would have any reason whatsoever to cover things up like this. Its not like they've found E.T. or something, it's just rocks... hardly enough to cause hysteria in the public. And if there is liquid water in some of those pictures... why deny it or cover it up instead of announcing a monumental discovery that would give NASA the publicity, credibility, and public support it so badly needs.[/color:post_uid0]


"here are we, on this starry night staring into space, and I must say, I feel as small as dust, lying down here"-dmb

Offline

#9 2004-04-19 18:28:28

atomoid
Member
From: Santa Cruz, CA
Registered: 2004-02-13
Posts: 252

Re: water water every where and nota drop to drink. - Water any one?

[color=#000000:post_uid0]Nice pics thanks for bringing this up, i'm still trying to get to the bottom of it. Yeah, that missing "bunny" is (was) back! but only for that one frame? I did find that image on the lyle.org servers (didn't try to navigate NASAs maze). If you look at other images of the same area from different angles on different sols you will see that the "bunny" is indeed MIA... NASA seems to suggest that its a peice of airbag fabric blowing around. Here's NASA's official description
There seems to be only one picture of it post-egress... Its there on sol 2 and sol 60 but not any time between these times...
[img:post_uid0]http://www.lyle.org/mars/imagery/thumbnails/1P128372948EFF0200P2211R2M1.JPG[/img:post_uid0]sol-2-zoom
[img:post_uid0]http://www.lyle.org/mars/imagery/thumbnails/1N132726534EFF06A8P1945R0M1.JPG[/img:post_uid0]sol-51-zoom[img:post_uid0]http://www.lyle.org/mars/imagery/thumbnails/1N132900610EFF06BGP1949R0M1.JPG[/img:post_uid0]sol-53-zoom[img:post_uid0]http://www.lyle.org/mars/imagery/thumbnails/1N132989284EFF06GOP1955R0M1.JPG[/img:post_uid0]sol-54-zoom[img:post_uid0]http://www.lyle.org/mars/imagery/thumbnails/1N133082875EFF06HEP1955L0M1.JPG[/img:post_uid0]sol-55-zoom[img:post_uid0]http://www.lyle.org/mars/imagery/thumbnails/1N133165066EFF0700P1705R0M1.JPG[/img:post_uid0]sol-56-zoom
[img:post_uid0]http://www.lyle.org/mars/imagery/thumbnails/1P133516570EFF0830P2218L5M1.JPG[/img:post_uid0]sol-60-zoom

Below: I still cant figure out what the hell the sitzmark (looking like an eroded martian crime scene chalk outline) are from (maybe loose airbag shreds flailing around and hitting the dirt as it rolled by? shouldnt there be other shred marks?) The "bunny" location at sol 60 should be just to the left of the sitzmark in this photo:
[img:post_uid0]http://www.lyle.org/mars/imagery/thumbn … 13R2M1.JPG[/img:post_uid0]sol-3-zoom [/color:post_uid0]


"I think it would be a good idea". - Mahatma Gandhi, when asked what he thought of Western civilization.

Offline

#10 2004-04-20 11:45:19

REB
Member
From: Houston, Texas
Registered: 2004-04-07
Posts: 555
Website

Re: water water every where and nota drop to drink. - Water any one?

[color=#000000:post_uid0]The pressure and temperature sometimes reaches the point to where liquid water can exist at the surface deep in the Hellas Basin. In Mars dry air, it would quickly evaporate, but it could exist just cm’s underground.

Here is a question I have wondered for a long time. Are their underground steams (Rivers) on Mars. Could pressure build enough in underground caverns long enough for water to stay stable as a liquid?

I have searched for in MOC pictures for springs that would confirm underground water. The closest I have found is in the Nilosyrtis Mensae region (See my thread on that)[/color:post_uid0]


"Run for it? Running's not a plan! Running's what you do, once a plan fails!"  -Earl Bassett

Offline

#11 2004-04-20 19:45:51

C M Edwards
Member
From: Lake Charles LA USA
Registered: 2002-04-29
Posts: 1,011

Re: water water every where and nota drop to drink. - Water any one?

[color=#000000:post_uid4]Ultimately, there is only one answer:

Go. Drill. Find out.[/color:post_uid4]


"We go big, or we don't go."  - GCNRevenger

Offline

#12 2004-04-20 22:06:43

Fey
Member
From: NorthCoast, OH
Registered: 2004-04-18
Posts: 3

Re: water water every where and nota drop to drink. - Water any one?

[color=#348781:post_uid0]Atomoid, Thanks for all the pics and info! Does anyone know if NASA has commented on the "muddy" pictures? It seems that many of the earlier pics of this area were either cropped out or  touched-up and Opportunity seemed to avoid traveling over it. People have stated disbelief that NASA would touch-up pictures, stating that they couldn't understand WHY they would want to hide something. I would like to repeat the question -- why don't they just :rant: tell us?   And, can you locate any pics of muddy wheels. The ones I've found have the surface of the wheel all smoothed out.[/color:post_uid0]


Curiosity is the cure for Ignorance. There is no cure for Curiosity!

Offline

#13 2004-04-20 23:42:27

Shaun Barrett
Member
From: Cairns, Queensland, Australia
Registered: 2001-12-28
Posts: 2,843

Re: water water every where and nota drop to drink. - Water any one?

[color=#000000:post_uid14]Hi REB!
    I had a quick look at some of your Nilosyrtis Mensae pictures at the other thread and I found them very interesting. The whole area seems to cry "ICE!", I agree.
    As to underground rivers, I haven't the background in geology or hydrology to make a sensible comment but I wouldn't be surprised if there are such things on Mars. There's definitely a great deal of water ice and, in my opinion, there's likely to be considerable geothermal activity too. Putting the two together, underground rivers seem like a logical conclusion - at least to me!
    The only rider to that might be the speed at which those underground rivers would flow. Here on Earth, with all our precipitation, it's not uncommon for subterranean rivers to flow swiftly. The rate of flow on Mars would most likely be much slower, since the transport of water from one area to another is in the form of vapour - fog and mist - rather than liquid. You can't supply large amounts of water to the highlands in short time-frames by condensation of mist, so I visualise a much slower movement of water underground.
    I believe there must be a hydrological cycle of sorts, though, however slow it may be, because studies of outflow channels on the martian surface seem to indicate separate episodes of catastrophic outflows over very long periods of time. It appears that, somehow, the aquifers in the highlands are recharged with water over millions or hundreds of millions of years, to enable them to release that water when triggered by, perhaps, localised volcanism. An active, though slow, hydrological cycle is necessary to explain this, I think.
                                               smile[/color:post_uid14]


The word 'aerobics' came about when the gym instructors got together and said: If we're going to charge $10 an hour, we can't call it Jumping Up and Down.   - Rita Rudner

Offline

#14 2004-04-21 06:16:02

REB
Member
From: Houston, Texas
Registered: 2004-04-07
Posts: 555
Website

Re: water water every where and nota drop to drink. - Water any one?

[color=#000000:post_uid0]Hi Shaun

The whole northern Nilosyrtis Mensae does scream ice. It looks like glacier activity went on in the past and may still be going on today. It certainly looks like active glaciers to me.

Those channels in the southern Nilosyrtis Mensae region puzzle me. I have search for other explanations but I keep coming back to water channels.

1. They all seem to originate from impact craters, one per crater.
2. They are all very long, suggesting that something very fluid created them.

The only thing I can think if is underground water. I don’t think they have water flowing in them at this moment (I would suspect if this was the case, they would have an ice coating covering them), but it looks like it was very recent.

I am an amateur Geologist and have even taught Geology at the High School and Jr. High level, but I have found that all my Geology experience doesn’t always help me with Mars. Mars is its own planet separate from Earth. It does have characteristics of the Earth, but it also has characteristics of the Moon. Mars is a cross between the Earth and the Moon in size and environment. (It does get less solar radiation than the Earth/Moon system) Mars is…well, Mars is its own planet with its own characteristics.[/color:post_uid0]


"Run for it? Running's not a plan! Running's what you do, once a plan fails!"  -Earl Bassett

Offline

#15 2004-04-21 08:52:40

C M Edwards
Member
From: Lake Charles LA USA
Registered: 2002-04-29
Posts: 1,011

Re: water water every where and nota drop to drink. - Water any one?

[color=#000000:post_uid0]Those channels in the southern Nilosyrtis Mensae region puzzle me. I have search for other explanations but I keep coming back to water channels.

... They all seem to originate from impact craters, one per crater.

The only thing I can think if is underground water. I don’t think they have water flowing in them at this moment (I would suspect if this was the case, they would have an ice coating covering them), but it looks like it was very recent.[/color:post_uid0][/quote:post_uid0]
[color=#000000:post_uid0]Hmm... Perhaps mother nature has already done the drilling for us.

Is there a way to estimate the depth of these craters? 

If so, is there some minimum depth for which shallower craters show no channels?  If the distribution of liquid water were uniform across the area, there would be a water table.

Also, you reject the prospect that these flows are current because there is apparently no ice.  However, all that we have are satellite photos.  What are the criteria for recognizing ice under these conditions?  Could dust or somthing be obscuring the ice in those channels and still give the same appearance?[/color:post_uid0]


"We go big, or we don't go."  - GCNRevenger

Offline

#16 2004-04-21 18:31:28

atomoid
Member
From: Santa Cruz, CA
Registered: 2004-02-13
Posts: 252

Re: water water every where and nota drop to drink. - Water any one?

[color=#000000:post_uid0]

Those channels in the southern Nilosyrtis Mensae region puzzle me. I have search for other explanations but I keep coming back to water channels.

... They all seem to originate from impact craters, one per crater.

The only thing I can think if is underground water. I don’t think they have water flowing in them at this moment (I would suspect if this was the case, they would have an ice coating covering them), but it looks like it was very recent.[/quote:post_uid0]
Hmm... Perhaps mother nature has already done the drilling for us.

Is there a way to estimate the depth of these craters? 

If so, is there some minimum depth for which shallower craters show no channels?  If the distribution of liquid water were uniform across the area, there would be a water table.

Also, you reject the prospect that these flows are current because there is apparently no ice.  However, all that we have are satellite photos.  What are the criteria for recognizing ice under these conditions?  Could dust or somthing be obscuring the ice in those channels and still give the same appearance?[/quote:post_uid0]
The leading theory of the gullies posits that there is ice cover in areas adjacent to gullies that get less sunlight. Future gullies will be created and unearthed (er, unmarsed) as this ice cover melts (due to the sun angle shifting due to Mars' pole procession). The problem with currently making a definitive identification of the supposed underlying ice is that it is under a cover of dust which, to the orbital instruments, makes it look just like the adjacent areas (although, i thought Oddyssey could spot such deposits maybe its resolution isnt sharp enough to differentiate these areas from the surrounding terrain?). This indirect evidence (the smooth terrain and absence of gullies) is implies the ice cover really is still there to this day in these gulley-adjacent areas.

That said, it seems likely that there are large deposits of dust-covered ice in the center of certain craters.[/color:post_uid0]


"I think it would be a good idea". - Mahatma Gandhi, when asked what he thought of Western civilization.

Offline

Board footer

Powered by FluxBB