Darpa the gamble on technology - high risk per dollar or just unobtainium

SpaceNut · 2004-11-03 14:11:12

Darpa seems to dabble in a lot of cutting edge technologies and projects.
Can anyone say beam me up scotty.

U.S. Air Force Takes a Look at Teleportation

It seems that mere stealth technology is not enough; the United States Air Force wants to get from here to there without even traversing the space in between.

John Creighton · 2004-11-03 14:23:43

http://www.fas.org/sgp/eprint/teleport. … leport.pdf

hmmm...fairly detailed. Interesting physics. Someday I may read it.

Ad Astra · 2004-11-03 15:53:25

DARPA's job is to look at the impossible and try to make it possible. If any branch of the DoD can be accused of "mad science," it would be DARPA.

clark · 2004-11-03 16:46:34

Interesting... fun stuff near the end... psychotronics and the 4th dimension of the mind.

Refrences to the JEDI training program (a military program to improve human capabilities) and Remote Viewing are just some of the highlights.

The author sounds intelligent and takes the subject matter seriously, but spends a little bit of time trying (understandably) to defend this course of fringe science.

I haven't the math to say if there is anything to it, but truth is always stranger than fiction.

SpaceNut · 2004-11-04 07:50:22

I think in some ways we have shown that it is possible to move single atoms of matter but I wonder if the persons intelectual conciousness would be intact.

clark · 2004-11-04 08:04:17

Well, if i read it right, it would appear to theorize that the mind inhabits a 4th dimension, which means it would be everywhere, and nowhere at once.

It also seems to suggest the creation of a "bubble" that swallows up matter and moves it through the 4th dimension.

It's weird spooky science.

John Creighton · 2004-11-04 10:48:18

5.1 PK Phenomenon
P-Teleportation is a form of psychokinesis (or PK) similar to telekinesis but generally used to
designate the movement of objects (called apports) through other physical objects or over great distances.
Telekinesis is a form of PK, which describes the movement of stationary objects without the use of any
known physical force. And PK is essentially the direct influence of mind on matter without any known
intermediate physical energy or instrumentation. Rigorously controlled modern scientific laboratory PK,
and related psychic (a.k.a. “psi”, “paranormal” or parapsychology), research has been performed and/or
documented by Rhine (1970), Schmidt (1974), Mitchell (1974a, b, see also the references cited therein),
Swann (1974), Puthoff and Targ (1974, 1975), Hasted et al. (1975), Targ and Puthoff (1977), Nash (1978,
see also the references cited therein), Shigemi et al. (1978), Hasted (1979), Houck (1984a), Wolman et al.
(1986, see also the references cited therein), Schmidt (1987), Alexander et al. (1990), Giroldini (1991),
Gissurarson (1992), Radin ((1997, see also the references cited therein), Tart et al. (2002), Shoup (2002),
and Alexander (2003).
A well-known theoretical/experimental/operational program directed by H. E. Puthoff, R. Targ, E.
May and I. Swann was conducted at SRI International and the NSA, and sponsored at various times by
the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA), the Defense Intelligence Agency (DIA), and the Army
Intelligence and Security Command (INSCOM) over more than two decades; and the program was later
carried on by E. May at SAIC (Alexander, 1980; Puthoff, 1996; Targ, 1996; Schnabel, 1997; Tart et al.,
2002). This was called the Remote Viewing program, and it was a compartmentalized special access
program possessing a variety of codenames during its 22 years of operation. Remote viewing involves
precognition and clairvoyance, and it allows a practitioner to acquire information irrespective of
intervening distance or time. The Remote Viewing program ended in 1994 and President W. J. Clinton
officially declassified it in 1995. The reader should note that the very first U. S. military-intelligence
R&D programs on psi, PK and mind control were conducted by H. K. (Andrija) Puharich, M.D., L.L.D
during his military service at the Army Chemical and Biological Warfare Center at Fort Detrick,
Maryland in the 1940s-50s. Puharich had an interest in clairvoyance and PK, and dabbled in theories for
electronically and pharmaceutically enhancing and synthesizing psychic abilities. While in the Army,
Puharich took part in a variety of parapsychology experiments, and he lectured Army, Air Force and
Navy groups on possibilities for mind warfare. He was a recognized expert in hypnotism and
microelectronics.

Just imagine if these people were right. Wouldn't that dramatically change our view on the world.

clark · 2004-11-04 10:51:25

Well, they are suggesting that the phenomena might be tied in with quantum physics and string theory. The search for the unification theory is probably going to upset some of the current physic paradigisms... dunno.

John Creighton · 2004-11-04 11:16:34

It appears that the physics of q-Teleportation (Chapter 3)
has tremendous relevance to the physics of p-Teleportation and psychotronics.
In the following I propose a parsimonious first-order hypothesis that can explain the gross features of
both the Chinese p-Teleportation data and the other reported p-Teleportation phenomena. But I will
refrain from including any role that might be played by quantum phenomena since the scientific
community has not yet settled that particular issue. (However, it is apparent that quantum theory and
quantum phenomena will likely play a key role in a formal physics theory of PK and psychotronics.)

John Creighton · 2004-11-04 11:19:41

For example, color can be used as a 4th dimension to see how a knot in
three-dimensions can be untied in a 4th spatial dimension without moving the ends of the cord.
That is because a cord cannot stay knotted in four-dimensional space, because the extra degree of
freedom will cause any knot to slip through itself. Two other interesting and relevant examples
are that the links of a chain may be separated unbroken in the 4th dimension, and a flexible sphere
may be turned inside out without tearing in the 4th dimension (Manning, 1977; Rucker, 1977).

Proposition 1 and Fact 2: It has been proposed that our space actually possesses a slight fourdimensional
hyperthickness, so that the ultimate components of our nervous system are actually
higher dimensional, thus enabling the human mind/brain to imagine four-dimensional space
(Hinton, 1888, 1904; Rucker, 1977). If this is the case, then the three-dimensional nets of
neurons that code thoughts in our brain may form four-dimensional patterns to achieve fourdimensional
thought. The “bulk” space in 3-brane theory (see Section 4.1), and experimental
data from the Remote Viewing program (see Section 5.1), provide support for this concept. Can
we see into the 4th dimension and have four-dimensional thoughts? Yes, we can. Proof (see,
Rucker, 1977, 1984): If you look at a Necker cube for a while, it spontaneously turns into its
mirror image and back again. If you watch it do this often enough, the twinkling sort of motion
from one state to the other begins to seem like a continuous motion. But this motion can only be
continuous if it is a rotation in four-dimensional space. The mathematician August F. Möbius
discovered in 1827 that it is in fact possible to turn a three-dimensional solid object into its mirror
image by an appropriate rotation through four-dimensional space (a.k.a. hyperspace rotation).
Thus, it is actually possible for our minds to perform such a rotation. Therefore, we can actually
produce four-dimensional phenomenon in our minds, so our consciousness is four-dimensional.
Rucker (1984) shows another

John Creighton · 2004-11-04 11:22:44

•Recommendations:
There are numerous supporters within the U.S. military establishment who comprehend the
significance of remote viewing and PK phenomenon, and believe that they could have strategic
implications. Bremseth (2001), a U.S. Navy SEAL, attended the Marine War College and studied
the Remote Viewing program, and interviewed many of the former program participants.
Bremseth then wrote his thesis on the topic, and concluded that the evidence supported continued
research and applications of remote viewing. A research program improving on and expanding,
or implementing novel variations of, the Chinese and Uri Geller-type experiments should be
conducted in order to generate p-Teleportation phenomenon in the lab. The performances and
characteristics of p-Teleportation need to be delineated in order to develop a refined hypothesis.
Such a program should be designed so that an operational model for p-Teleportation can be
developed and implemented as a prototype. An experimental program similar in fashion to the
Remote Viewing program should be funded at $900,000 – 1,000,000 per year in parallel with a
theoretical program funded at $500,000 per year for an initial five-year duration. The role of
quantum physics theory and related quantum phenomena (i.e., entanglement and teleportation) in
p-Teleportation and psychotronics should be explored in this program (see for example, the
Biological Quantum Teleportation recommendation in Section 3.3). An experiment definition
study should be conducted first to identify and propose the best experiments for this program,
which should be funded at $80,000 for one year.

John Creighton · 2004-11-04 11:30:11

If any of this is true and we find ways to control the physics behind it then we are truly primitive beings today. What mysteries may a forth dimension hold.

GCNRevenger · 2004-11-04 11:34:38

Sounds like pretty crackpot stuff to me based on a poor understanding of advanced physics... I can see humans perhaps being sensitive to electric fields we produce, but this stuff is nonsense.

John Creighton · 2004-11-04 11:53:33

Sounds like pretty crackpot stuff to me based on a poor understanding of advanced physics... I can see humans perhaps being sensitive to electric fields we produce, but this stuff is nonsense.

Well obviously the first response is to be skeptical. Secondly I agree that such science is usually crackpot stuff. Nonetheless this supposedly is a government document and there is supposedly a lot of experiments backing up TK phenomenon. There are universities that have done research of the effect of mind on matter. For instance onc study looks at how ordinary people can influence the randomness of a random event. Also we know from quantum theory the observations influence matter (A.K.A the uncertainty principle). There are also theories such as string theory that postulate higher dimensional spaces. What do you loose by keeping an opened mind? Are we really so arrogant to assume that our current physics is flawless.

There is a wealth of factual scientific research data from around the world attesting to the physical reality of p-Teleportation and related anomalous psi phenomena (Mitchell, 1974b; Targ and Puthoff, 1977; Nash, 1978; Radin, 1997; Tart et al., 2002). The skeptical reader should not be so quick to dismiss the subject matter in this chapter, because one must remain open-minded about this subject and consider p-Teleportation as worthy of further scientific exploration. The psychotronics topic is controversial within the western scientific community. The debate among scientists and scientific philosophers is highly charged at times, and becomes acrimonious to the point where reputable skeptical scientists cease being impartial by refusing to examine the experimental data or theories, and they prefer to bypass rational discourse by engaging in ad hominem attacks and irrational “armchair” arguments. P-Teleportation and related phenomena are truly anomalous, and they challenge accepted modern scientific paradigm. Lightman and Gingerich (1991) wrote, “Scientists are reluctant to change paradigms for the purely psychological reasons that the familiar is often more comfortable than the unfamiliar and that inconsistencies in belief are uncomfortable.” And theories change over time when anomalies enter the picture. Anomalies are particularly helpful for they point to the inadequacies of an old model and point the way to a new one. Anomalous scientific facts are unexpected and difficult to explain within an existing conceptual framework. Kuhn (1970) describes scientific discovery as a complex process, in which an anomalous fact of nature is recognized, and then followed by a change in conceptual framework (i.e., paradigm) that makes the new fact no longer an anomaly. Kuhn stated that, “Discovery commences with the awareness of anomaly, that is, with the recognition that nature has somehow violated the preinduced expectations that govern normal science.” This statement neatly describes exactly what transpired during the historical revolution that took place in physics between the classical mechanics/electrodynamics age in the 19th century and the quantum/atomic/nuclear/relativistic age in the 20th century. And this isn’t the only time in human history that scientific paradigms have dramatically changed. The discovery of p-Teleportation already commenced in the 20th century, so let us continue the
discovery and create a new physics paradigm for the 21st century.

clark · 2004-11-04 12:04:04

It is rather odd stuff, but the Remote viewing was an actual military program, and it did achieve some quantifible results.

Now many people have anecdotal evidence of experiences that cannot be readily explained by any current scientific model- things like "feelings", premonitions, and the like. What's the basis for that? Supersition mumbo jumbo? Perhaps. Yet I am inclined to believe that there is a bit more to that and science dosen't have all the answers. We barely understand the relationship of thought and the brain.

This is not to give any validity to any of this, but to point out that there is something going on that dosen't have a ready explanation given by current scientific models. If we constrain ourselves just to the current models, we can't look beyond it for a possible answer.

Besides, it's fun to imagine.

Euler · 2004-11-04 14:12:28

I agree with GNCR: this is our tax dollars being wasted on pseudo-science. The author does not seem to really understand the physics behind the q- and vm- teleportation ideas. As for the p-teleportation, I think that if there were any real repeatable evidence that it exists it would be much more widely accepted. Also, even if it does exist(which I doubt), the explanations offered by the author are wild speculations without enough evidence to support them to be considered a scientific theory or hypothesis.

GCNRevenger · 2004-11-04 14:26:50

I would treat any such "results" from "psi ops" programs with extreme skeptisism, especially with narrow statistical "proof..." did the subjects pick the right card 1% more then they didn't, and the like. I strongly suspect that these are crackpots who have permitted themselves to be poisoned by the irrational and insane allure of psuedoscience, and have found a way to feed their tendencies for it off our dollars... If they "feel" they are right, it doesn't matter if there is evidence before or against, they will continue to believe and could even forge evidence to keep in business. I wish the FBI would check some of these yahoos for occult affiliation...

It seems to be a rare but not uncommon affliction to believe that what is established is wrong without rational cause, and that you are aware of some special secret knowledge and the rest of the world is "unenlightend." Psionic powers and such are convienant because you don't need real scientific knowledge to make up somthing.

John Creighton · 2004-11-04 14:50:45

I agree with GNCR: this is our tax dollars being wasted on pseudo-science.

Well how much is spent and was spent? It is reasonable to devote a small amount of money to some more speculative research.

The author does not seem to really understand the physics behind the q- and vm- teleportation ideas.

I haven’t read this section of the paper yet so I won’t comment. I also haven’t researched much of the standard physics ideas behind it. Regardless research into q type teleportation is definitely not a waste of money. I wouldn’t devote half the physics budget to it but some funding sure. I wonder what is spent now.

As for the p-teleportation, I think that if there were any real repeatable evidence that it exists it would be much more widely accepted.

I won’t offer a comment on this.

Also, even if it does exist(which I doubt), the explanations offered by the author are wild speculations without enough evidence to support them to be considered a scientific theory or hypothesis.

Well it is not real that useful an explanation because we can’t measure this extra dimension nor can we use it to enhance our predictions about nature. I am surprised in the paper I haven’t heard of of attempts to model the trajectories of the teleported objects in four dimensional space. Hypothesis could be made about how the tracking device signal is attenuated in the forth dimension. The object could be modeled as moving though four dimensional space with a random force. The velocity would be proportional to the integral of the force and the position would be proportional to the integral of the velocity. Kalman filters could be used to track the four dimensional position of the object. The ability of the Kalman filter to track the object in four dimensional space would either help to build on or discredit any model.

John Creighton · 2004-11-04 14:56:40

There was one really suspect thing I read in the paper. I remember reading something about experiments showing teleportation without any force. But force is acceleration per mass thus movement without force is nonsensical. Such statements should not pass the test of a referee with an undergraduate degree in physics.

John Creighton · 2004-11-04 15:05:28

Psionic powers and such are convienant because you don't need real scientific knowledge to make up somthing.

Here is a thought. If one psychic can pic the right card 1% of the time how many psychics would you need to pick the right card 50% of the time? I know the answer if the psychic process is independent and corrupted by a random unbiased error. Of course if the predictions gets worse with more psychic then obviously not everyone in the experiment was a psychic. Perhaps not any of them.

John Creighton · 2004-11-04 15:25:36

Here is another thought. Say a 10 randomly selected psychic couples each have one kid. And the psychic gene was recessive. On average how many psychic kids would they have?

A thought: Are these abilities carried by a gene or are the a result of how the child is brought up?

Say for a child to be psychic he needed 5 recessive genes and there was 2 recessive genes he could not have. What are the odds of a psychic couple having a physic kid?

John Creighton · 2004-11-04 15:39:17

Hmmm….sci fi novel idea,: “recent experiments into TK have shown that there are two types of psychics” They are p type psychics and n type psychic. n type psychic are more powerful but p type psychic are more common. In the presence of p type psychics the power of an n type psychic is diminished but in the presence of another n type psychic the power is enhanced. A government researcher working for DARPA has discovered he is an n type psychic and has been on a quest to rid the world of p type physics. Later in the book it will be discovered the power of p and n type physics can be combined in the presence of a rare q type psychic for the good of all man kind.”

The above paper gives lots of research references that can be used in the sci fi book.

Euler · 2004-11-04 16:47:10

Here is a thought. If one psychic can pic the right card 1% of the time how many psychics would you need to pick the right card 50% of the time? I know the answer if the psychic process is independent and corrupted by a random unbiased error. Of course if the predictions gets worse with more psychic then obviously not everyone in the experiment was a psychic. Perhaps not any of them.

Another thought: if a psychic is correct 1% more often than a normal person, how long would it take them to amass a fortune by gambling and/or investing in the stock market.

Here is another thought. Say a 10 randomly selected psychic couples each have one kid. And the psychic gene was recessive. On average how many psychic kids would they have?

If it is based on a single recessive gene then if both parents are psychics, the child must also be a psychic.

Say for a child to be psychic he needed 5 recessive genes and there was 2 recessive genes he could not have. What are the odds of a psychic couple having a physic kid?

There are several factors. Do the parents each have 1 copy of the recessive genes? Is there a set of more than 5 recessive genes, and you only need some combination 5 out of the set? It could be likely or unlikely.

I don't think that there is anything mystical or supernatural about the human mind. If psychic powers exist, then they should obey the normal laws of physics. In that case we should also be able to find other animals with psychic powers, and we should be able to build machines with psychic powers also.

John Creighton · 2004-11-04 19:40:20

I don't think that there is anything mystical or supernatural about the human mind. If psychic powers exist, then they should obey the normal laws of physics.

Well all the really good laws should always be obeyed. The rest are meant to be broken. But seriously what is a normal law of physics? I think the real question is what can we observer with a high probability. How does this give us advantage over nature. It is my belief that psychic powers if they exist should obey a relativity deterministic set of rules. If any physical process is completely irrational there would be no point in studying it. But what would it mean to have an irrational physically process? Most things can be described at least statistically in terms like central moments, mean and spectral density. However if nature is ergodic then statistical we can determine nothing about it and a physics that worked arose by chance.

In that case we should also be able to find other animals with psychic powers, and we should be able to build machines with psychic powers also.

For the sci fi story idea above I was thinking of including psychic dolphins. As for psychic machines lets perfect good AI first.

John Creighton · 2004-11-04 19:54:56

The Dream of Reason for the Lawyer of Physics

Caged in flesh bound by gravity
Forced to peer out of cavities in the scull
We strive to be free from the travesty
Of the weakness of flesh for which we will fall

Bound by rules and limitations
We search for technicalities
Dream of the eventualities
Of our technological transformations

Through wishful thought or superior deduction
We shall eventually conquer foreseen destruction

In the end we will be more then men
Supernatural beings of power and zen

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