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#26 2002-12-16 16:14:44

Echus_Chasma
Member
From: Auckland, New Zealand
Registered: 2002-12-15
Posts: 190
Website

Re: Chinese Space Program? - What if they get there first

I think its quite good that the Chinese are developing a space programme. After the cold war the Space Race slowed down and we really need a catylast (excuse spelling) to speed things up a bit.
Space programmes need an 'Energy Drink' to get them going again. I would personally support the Chinese space programme so it could build competetion again between the big countries and hopefully start a new space race. This has already been pointed out but I believe that it is a way to help the US government see that space is the future.

If I was an Astronaut I would really want to into space in a rocket with a sticker saying "Made in China" on it  tongue

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#27 2002-12-29 07:40:17

nirgal
Member
Registered: 2002-05-14
Posts: 157

Re: Chinese Space Program? - What if they get there first

Shenzhou-4 Primed For Take Off This Weekend smile Great, finally they get moving again.

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#28 2002-12-29 07:46:29

soph
Member
Registered: 2002-11-24
Posts: 1,492

Re: Chinese Space Program? - What if they get there first

first of all, getting back to the first point...china is capitalist.  the economy is almost a free market, now.  only in the past 2 or 3 years has this been true.  the old hard-liners are dying, and there is a real belief among analysts that china will move towards democracy. 

i would be very surprised to see a Red Mars, pardon the pun.

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#29 2002-12-29 15:50:59

nirgal
Member
Registered: 2002-05-14
Posts: 157

Re: Chinese Space Program? - What if they get there first

Success. Shenzou IV has been launched.

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#30 2002-12-29 16:26:52

Echus_Chasma
Member
From: Auckland, New Zealand
Registered: 2002-12-15
Posts: 190
Website

Re: Chinese Space Program? - What if they get there first

In May, official Chinese media said a longer-term aim of China's fiercely ambitious space program was to establish a base on the moon in order to exploit its mineral resources.[/quote:post_uid0]

That should get NASA a bit worried, but then again, the Chinese are way behiend in space technology.

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#31 2002-12-31 15:39:26

soph
Member
Registered: 2002-11-24
Posts: 1,492

Re: Chinese Space Program? - What if they get there first

actually, not so far behind.  their rockets are not so technologically inferior to ours or russian rockets.  and if they want to go into space, i say go!

we'll eventually have to join them, and if they want to give us the push, its great.  again, i highly doubt china will be totalitarian for long, but i dont think with their nationalism, they will simply abandon a space program, especially if they get results.  the apollo program was also ended because of a few failures, like apollo 13.  the chinese have almost 2 billion people, and they arent shocked when a few die, so i dont think a few deaths or failures, however cold it sounds, will stop them.

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#32 2002-12-31 15:51:04

Echus_Chasma
Member
From: Auckland, New Zealand
Registered: 2002-12-15
Posts: 190
Website

Re: Chinese Space Program? - What if they get there first

hehe, I hope your right.

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#33 2003-01-02 10:21:31

Palomar
Member
From: USA
Registered: 2002-05-30
Posts: 9,734

Re: Chinese Space Program? - What if they get there first

*Found this just a few moments ago:

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tm....space_3


We all know those Venusians: Doing their hair in shock waves, smoking electrical coronas, wearing Van Allen belts and resting their tiny elbows on a Geiger counter...

--John Sladek (The New Apocrypha)

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#34 2003-01-02 13:58:30

soph
Member
Registered: 2002-11-24
Posts: 1,492

Re: Chinese Space Program? - What if they get there first

i saw a similar article from another source days ago, shortly after shenzou, (4 was it?) was launched.  good for them, at least somebody is making progress.  and with their political direction, i dont think we should fear space turning red...china will be a democracy in the next 20 to 50 years, if not in the next decade, in my opinion.

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#35 2003-03-25 09:32:28

Gennaro
Member
From: Eta Cassiopeiae (no, Sweden re
Registered: 2003-03-25
Posts: 591

Re: Chinese Space Program? - What if they get there first

[color=#000000:post_uid1]I think this is all a fact of human existence. One's the ball starts rolling all capable political entities on Earth will want to have their share of Mars.
In such a scenario there's really no use discussing what constitution should be imposed etc, since every colony will be run according to the political culture of its terran government and these are diverse indeed.
The post cold war order is already giving in to a new line of sovereign terran super powers. These are roughly the United States, China, Russia and Europe. Each with its own agenda and potential capacity for territorial expansion within the Solar System. The first to touch down in an area will claim it for their empire, limited to the extent over which it can exert control through physical presence.
This I believe, is probably the way the dividing up of the martian hemisphere will go, haphazard and chaotic and spontaneous. Maybe stalked here and there by international agreement.[/color:post_uid1]

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#36 2003-03-25 09:41:07

Palomar
Member
From: USA
Registered: 2002-05-30
Posts: 9,734

Re: Chinese Space Program? - What if they get there first

[color=#000000:post_uid4]Made in China U.S. computers should be readily available....[/color:post_uid4][/quote:post_uid4]
[color=#810541:post_uid4]*So what -isn't- made in China these days?   :;):

--Cindy[/color:post_uid4]


We all know those Venusians: Doing their hair in shock waves, smoking electrical coronas, wearing Van Allen belts and resting their tiny elbows on a Geiger counter...

--John Sladek (The New Apocrypha)

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#37 2003-03-25 19:49:28

dicktice
Member
From: Nova Scotia, Canada
Registered: 2002-11-01
Posts: 1,764

Re: Chinese Space Program? - What if they get there first

[color=#000000:post_uid14]Cindy: I had to hunt for that post of mine. It was a rebuttal to a statement that China was technologically "decades behind" the U.S. I've learned since not to rise to such bait, and to contribute more helpful posts from then on. ???[/color:post_uid14]

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#38 2004-03-11 15:49:55

Yang Liwei Rocket
Member
Registered: 2004-03-03
Posts: 993

Re: Chinese Space Program? - What if they get there first

They should send me, I've had plenty of experience
http://www.astronautix.com/articles/china.htm
big_smile

chimoon4.jpg

A licenced loony moon buggy driver!!


'first steps are not for cheap, think about it...
did China build a great Wall in a day ?' ( Y L R newmars forum member )

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#39 2005-07-14 12:49:18

Yang Liwei Rocket
Member
Registered: 2004-03-03
Posts: 993

Re: Chinese Space Program? - What if they get there first

[color=#000000:post_uid0]Some info for you folks

http://news.tom.com/1002/3291/2005222-1878509.html
神舟六号开始总装(图)
http://www.xawb.com/gb/rbpaper/2005-01/ … 456676.htm
&
http://www.news365.com.cn/xwzx/tpxw/W02 … 883984.jpg
http://www.cnnb.com.cn/gb/node2/node48/ … 72437.html
http://cqsb.huash.com/gb/cqsb/2005-01/2 … 585857.htm
http://skyleonid.lamost.org/tupian/2005 … raoyue.jpg
&
[/quote:post_uid0]
http://www.ben.com.cn/WLZB/20040326/curdayimg/0325.jpg
China says it is planning to establish a base on the Moon to exploit its mineral resources.  Our long-term goal is to set up a base on the moon and mine its riches for the benefit of humanity said Chinese space official Ouyang Ziyuan
Shenzhou-6 神舟六号 announced in 2003, will be the 2nd manned space mission launched by the People's Republic of China PRC in  2005. It is scheduled to carry two astronauts 宇航员 for five days in orbit. A chief scientist with China's Moon exploration programme, Ouyang Ziyuan, said that the country was planning to launch its first mission. Chang'e 嫦娥工程  is a program of unmanned missions to the Moon by China announced in 2003. The first spacecraft, Chang'e 1 will carry 24 scientific instruments, including CCD three-dimensional cameras, microprobe instruments and a high-energy sun particle detector. China first announced a four-step, manned spaceflight programme in 1999, which included plans for a space station served by shuttle-style vehicles. Chinese have plans for Probing useful elements on the moon surface and analyzing the useful elements and materials, primarily making maps of the distribution of various elements on the moon's surface. China hopes to expand the number of the useful elements to 14, compared with the five kinds previously probed by the United States, and will conduct an overall prospect evaluation on some useful resources on the moon's surface. The Chang-e spacecraft will weigh 2,350 kg, with a 130 kg of payload, and will orbit the moon for one year.[/color:post_uid0]


'first steps are not for cheap, think about it...
did China build a great Wall in a day ?' ( Y L R newmars forum member )

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#40 2005-07-15 04:42:39

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 21,300

Re: Chinese Space Program? - What if they get there first

[color=#000000:post_uid0]Well the steady progress of china is leading to another manned flight.
China Counting Down To Next Men In Space

China has begun training six pilots for spaceflight, two of whom will enter orbit on September's Shenzhou VI mission, domestic media said on Monday, in the next step in the country's lofty space ambitions.[/quote:post_uid0]

Its only a matter of time and they will be knocking on the ISS door or even launching a mission to the moon.[/color:post_uid0]

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#41 2005-07-15 07:05:28

GCNRevenger
Member
From: Earth
Registered: 2003-10-14
Posts: 6,056

Re: Chinese Space Program? - What if they get there first

[color=#000000:post_uid0]A long, [i:post_uid0]long,[/i:post_uid0] [b:post_uid0]LONG[/b:post_uid0] time.[/color:post_uid0]


"The power of accurate observation is often called cynicism by those that do not have it." - George Bernard Shaw

The glass is at 50% of capacity

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#42 2005-07-15 11:13:52

dicktice
Member
From: Nova Scotia, Canada
Registered: 2002-11-01
Posts: 1,764

Re: Chinese Space Program? - What if they get there first

[color=#000000:post_uid0]Longer than the Russians, CGNR? (Carefull, trick question.)[/color:post_uid0]

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#43 2005-07-23 09:28:29

srmeaney
Member
From: 18 tiwi gdns rd, TIWI NT 0810
Registered: 2005-03-18
Posts: 976

Re: Chinese Space Program? - What if they get there first

At the rate they are expanding their launch infrastructure, they could have a Mars Mission -four crew and all the food you need- up and ready for 2012- three launch components-motor, habitat, and lander (the last two able to make surface landings).

The level of secrecy they ran with during the launch of their first tychonaut, The mission would be non transmission, record the landing, plant the flag, send the data and samples in one go, move a bunch of boulders on the surface to spell out the word We got here first, and wait for re supply vehicles once a year to maintain a permanent presence. Required electricity, not solar cells, rather exercise bikes and generators- thats sufficient to power a TV.

scientific samples could be loaded into unmanned return vehicles continuously, providing the Chinese scientific community with every discovery that a robot could never make...

The economy here would be food one way core samples the other.

All the rest of us will be able to do is watch them on NASA's spy satellite.

Earths oldest surviving civilization goes interplanetary-news at eleven.

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#44 2005-07-23 11:52:10

GCNRevenger
Member
From: Earth
Registered: 2003-10-14
Posts: 6,056

Re: Chinese Space Program? - What if they get there first

2012? Haha, nooo, I doubt that very much... China's copy of Soyuz hasn't even really proven itself, but they are going to:

-Make a ship capable of handling operation for two or three years in space (for an opposition-class misison), probobly with an aerobrake shield from scratch (NASA has at least done some dynamics studies)

-A manned lander good for a month that nobody has built in anything like it since Apollo and will be very complex and which will weigh many tonnes. This is something that China can't copy from the Russians either.

-Many many tonnes of fuel which no current or proposed Chinese rocket can launch in a timely fasion to avoid boiloff, nor have an engine to burn it with.

And you will need a crew that either won't mind spending ~9mo in zero-gravity and (three more then NASA would dare) or you will need an artifical gravity system. A space-rated nuclear reactor and new super space suits wouldn't hurt either.

China is muuuch further from coming up with the technology and engineering for a MarsDirect/DRM style conjunction-class mission, which requires a much longer surface stay.


"The power of accurate observation is often called cynicism by those that do not have it." - George Bernard Shaw

The glass is at 50% of capacity

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#45 2005-07-23 13:50:19

Stormrage
Member
From: United Kingdom, Europe
Registered: 2005-06-25
Posts: 274

Re: Chinese Space Program? - What if they get there first

I think people are riding in prejudice here. Why should anyone be worried that China or a country from the Axis of Evil wants to go to space? You should be happy, The Europeans/Russians and the americans had their chance. Now let the others join the party.

Also remember competition is good for technology. Sputnik forced the americans to get off there ass and beat the "commies".


"...all I ask is a tall ship, and a star to steer her by."

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#46 2005-07-23 19:14:04

srmeaney
Member
From: 18 tiwi gdns rd, TIWI NT 0810
Registered: 2005-03-18
Posts: 976

Re: Chinese Space Program? - What if they get there first

-Make a ship capable of handling operation for two or three years in space (for an opposition-class misison), probobly with an aerobrake shield from scratch (NASA has at least done some dynamics studies)

-A manned lander good for a month that nobody has built in anything like it since Apollo and will be very complex and which will weigh many tonnes. This is something that China can't copy from the Russians either.

-Many many tonnes of fuel which no current or proposed Chinese rocket can launch in a timely fasion to avoid boiloff, nor have an engine to burn it with.

1. Land on Mars Moon then launch at Mars- No Aerobraking Required besides, did you ever notice that nice little nose-cone on the Chinese space vehicle I do beleive it had a seamless reentry surface?

2. Soviets knew what NASA knew, China Also Knows how to build a Shuttle, The Apollo Program, That cool little re-entry vehicle (x-38?). Plus the secret of 'bubbled Aluminium' which was produced by Europeans will allow light weight, Yet stronger vehicles to be built- A Ten tonne lander-fully fueled. If your crew is going to stay, It only needs fuel for getting there.

3. Laser Enrichment technology of the Australian government (apparently we have over a thousand chinese spies here)...reversed and you get this cool little process by which fission is achieved by assaulting a piece of Uranium with a laser.
Or if you prefer, fuel cells can convert your fuel from water as needed.

Thats what espionage is for. I think China is a little further ahead than the USA or anyone else.

chins80a.jpgchishut1.jpg
Chinese crew train in shuttle cockpit 1980, Chinese Shuttle based on  wind tunnel model info (stolen from china?)- A two seater Minishuttle in 1980. Mass 10 tonnes? (if the airlock is right at the Back, No crew ejection systems, it would be like living out of a campervan). That looks a lot further along than NASA.

Besides, Mars Direct? Thats keyed to crew return. China is a very efficiency oriented state. Colonization is preferable to Return.

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#47 2005-07-23 20:25:45

GCNRevenger
Member
From: Earth
Registered: 2003-10-14
Posts: 6,056

Re: Chinese Space Program? - What if they get there first

"No Aerobraking Required"

Dude, how are you supposed to stop when you get to Mars? You will have to slow down to enter Mars orbit to land on one of its moons just as much as you would need to land on Mars. The whole point of aerobraking is to not use fuel for this maneuver.

"Soviets knew what NASA knew"

Simply having access to designs doesn't help you all that much, since you still have to do ALOT of engineering work even if you were given blueprints; simply being handed the design doesn't give you experience. Russia knows next to nothing about large landers, and China knows even less. China couldn't copy the Space Shuttle if they tried given how complex the beast is, and they aren't even a third of the way to a manned Lunar program the equal of Apollo.

The notion that you could build a long term manned lander for only ten tonnes with fuel, even less then the Apollo lander, and have it be big enough for a crew of four is nonsense, the MarsDirect HAB (which also doesn't come back!) weighs over double that, and Bob Zubrin is notorious for understating masses. 10MT is too little even for a short term stay.

Aluminum foam is not some magical wonderous material either

"by which fission is achieved"

Uh. No its not. Laser enrichment has nothing to do with fission, it is just used to seperate Uranium isotopes by selective ionization. Fuel cells are not an energy supply either, they are a storage medium, you have to get energy to break down water from someplace first. The concept behind laser enrichment really isn't some deep dark state secret either. Since a long-term stay on Mars means nuclear energy, then China would have to build small reactors from scratch too, and they have zero experience with this.

"Chinese crew train in shuttle cockpit 1980, Chinese Shuttle based on wind tunnel model info"

Propoganda... anybody can make a cheap CGI drawing like that, and give a bunch of highschoolers some money and they too could build a snazzy-looking "cockpit simulator." Its a me-too thing, just like the Bruan debacle.

"China is a very efficiency oriented state. Colonization is preferable to Return."

Um, what are you talking about? Of course they will want to bring crews home.


"The power of accurate observation is often called cynicism by those that do not have it." - George Bernard Shaw

The glass is at 50% of capacity

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#48 2005-07-23 20:47:20

srmeaney
Member
From: 18 tiwi gdns rd, TIWI NT 0810
Registered: 2005-03-18
Posts: 976

Re: Chinese Space Program? - What if they get there first

"China is a very efficiency oriented state. Colonization is preferable to Return."

Um, what are you talking about? Of course they will want to bring crews home.

No you dont. Keep them there-twenty year mission, You only need to resupply continuously. Considering the USA wont be ready for Mars until 2030, China can still do it. Considering they wont bother with crew escape systems. Permanent Presence cuts the need to return a heavy lander habitat.- Crew reduced to two people.- We are back down to a whole bunch of ten tonne space vehicles all but one unmanned.
With opposition and conjunction launch events. All they need is a way to drop the tiny shuttle to Mars surface without damage and a second lander that can be pulled over to dock with the first, expanding human habitation space on Mars surface. Continuous food resupply results in -Permanent Presence.

"by which fission is achieved"

Uh. No its not. Laser enrichment has nothing to do with fission, it is just used to seperate Uranium isotopes by selective ionization. Fuel cells are not an energy supply either, they are a storage medium, you have to get energy to break down water from someplace first. The concept behind laser enrichment really isn't some deep dark state secret either. Since a long-term stay on Mars means nuclear energy, then China would have to build small reactors from scratch too, and they have zero experience with this.

So a laser that can excite an atom for enrichment, cant fission it?

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#49 2005-07-24 00:10:49

srmeaney
Member
From: 18 tiwi gdns rd, TIWI NT 0810
Registered: 2005-03-18
Posts: 976

Re: Chinese Space Program? - What if they get there first

What are the odds that China will pursue Mars colonization with two crew teams in lightweight vehicles? Colonist Crews could be shipping home samples for scientific study well before the Mars direct even gets a launch date.

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#50 2005-07-24 20:17:25

Commodore
Member
From: Upstate NY, USA
Registered: 2004-07-25
Posts: 1,021

Re: Chinese Space Program? - What if they get there first

China won't be going to Mars anytime soon for too reasons...

1) Its a hell of a lot of money to spend for no forseeable financial gain
2) Its a surefire way to get the place swarming with Americans

The moon could be an issue if China continues on its current rate of economic growth. But I think just about everyone agrees its unsustainable for any number of reasons.

Quite frankly China wants Tiawan more than it wants the Moon or Mars. And its not going to get it under the current regime.


"Yes, I was going to give this astronaut selection my best shot, I was determined when the NASA proctologist looked up my ass, he would see pipes so dazzling he would ask the nurse to get his sunglasses."
---Shuttle Astronaut Mike Mullane

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