Earths Oceans Explored - but why not colonized

GW Johnson · 2017-01-26 12:20:37

Original thread title: Earth's Oceans Explored - but why not colonized -- a question.

The short, simple answer: because it is harder for an airbreather to live there than on land, and we haven't yet run out of land to live on.

What may happen as land-based agriculture falls short of producing enough food, especially with deleterious climate change effects: --- Floating operations that farm the sea with aquaculture, not so much mechanized fishing (already seriously overfished in many places. Fundamental problem: too many of us, not enough food production means.

We'll have to farm at sea since the land cannot supply enough, which means some must move out onto the sea to run the operations. We'll also have to get serious about population control. There's over 7 billion of us. My best gut-feel guess is that the long-term sustainable population is under 0.7 billion, 10 times less.

We'll colonize the ocean surface when, and because, that's what we have to do.

BTW, we'll need some new economics theories that help direct things with stable or shrinking populations. That's a serious lack. Right now everything is based on growth-in-perpetuity. That's not sustainable. Opportunity here!!!

There is a parallel here to colonization in space. We'll do that in a big way when the need really arises, just like the oceans. But unlike the oceans, space isn't yet explored, and the small-scale experiments in settlement technologies have yet to be run. That alone will keep us busy for a century or so.

A guess and likely wrong: resource extraction in space will take place outside of gravity wells. That would be asteroids/comets, and small moons. Planets like Mars get terraformed and put into agricultural production. Resource extraction in space cold start now, might even be a viable business soon. Terraforming will take centuries. The sea will hold us till then.

GW

Last edited by GW Johnson (2017-01-26 12:27:48)

SpaceNut · 2017-01-26 19:51:49

The ocean life will happen when you can no longer afford to live on land for sure.

Tom Kalbfus · 2017-01-28 01:00:12

SpaceNut wrote:

The ocean life will happen when you can no longer afford to live on land for sure.

It would require advanced robotics to build the land cheap enough so ordinary people can afford to live on it.

GW Johnson · 2017-01-28 13:45:19

What I had in mind was a floating city on barges moored together, sort of along the lines of the old movie "Waterworld", but focused on aquaculture in a netted volume beneath the city, instead of that post-apocalyptic nonsense in the movie. There's no need of robotics to build and operate such a thing, although having ROV's would certainly help. You'd have to locate it in the right place so that ocean currents maintain its climate location, instead of routing it toward the cold regions and back. Maybe the middle of the Sargasso Sea?

GW

Tom Kalbfus · 2017-01-28 18:20:51

GW Johnson wrote:

What I had in mind was a floating city on barges moored together, sort of along the lines of the old movie "Waterworld", but focused on aquaculture in a netted volume beneath the city, instead of that post-apocalyptic nonsense in the movie. There's no need of robotics to build and operate such a thing, although having ROV's would certainly help. You'd have to locate it in the right place so that ocean currents maintain its climate location, instead of routing it toward the cold regions and back. Maybe the middle of the Sargasso Sea?
GW

You would need thousands or robots per person to make the necessary land cheap enough, and I'm talking artificial hills, soil trees and everything like that, not some sorry rusty boats tossing in the waves!

SpaceNut · 2017-01-28 21:45:58

water world island was made up of multiple vessels lashed together to create the land for use...

Metals that are sandwiched together as a laminate do not rust or rot to make the new land on the oceans....

Tom Kalbfus · 2017-01-28 23:08:45

There is not enough water to make Water World, that movie was an exaggeration just like the other movie The Day After Tomorrow.

SpaceNut · 2017-01-29 10:04:59

Yes these were exaggeration but then again to many going to mars is just that....

So back to what make land as we have seen it can be not only describe as a suface where we can live in comfort...

So colonizing the oceans are a possiblity as we need to forage outward for room to grow.
We are not there for sure and we have barely scratched the oceans as far as exploration goes as well...

GW Johnson · 2017-01-29 13:02:26

What I had in mind was not a land ecology on a floating thing, but something like a ship, just a lot larger. It was a factory aquaculture farm, so food is no problem. Sell or trade surplus for what you don't make but want.

Use waste heat the way the Navy does to make fresh water out of sea water by vacuum flash distillation. That plus rainwater collection should be plenty. The sewage will have to be well-treated before discharge, or else you pollute the aquaculture operation.

Smallish crew of aquaculturists and the technicians that keep the ship-like systems running.

It's not colonization in the classic sense, but it's a start. As I said, I suspect we'll be driven to start doing that as the land agriculture output falls short with overpopulation and climate change.

GW

SpaceNut · 2017-01-29 19:30:24

Not sure that any colony or even a small group would be able to afford nuclear powered anything due to cost thou nuclear power and the oceans are a perfect match for a foundation for even a floating island which could contain such an industry that could support these island members.

Antius · 2017-01-30 06:09:39

We do have sea colonies in a sense. Offshore oil rigs are a good example of a small colony built in the sea to exploit a mineral resource that requires local presence. No one lives there full time because: (1) They are expensive real estate; (2) No body wants to. As a home, the land is better. And it isn't that expensive just to rotate the crews using helicopters. A lot cheaper than building a palatial oil rig.

When asteroids are mined the first facilities will probably resemble oil rigs in some respects. They will be cramped, smelly, not entirely healthy. But the distance and launch costs mean that crew cannot easily return home on a regular basis. When you send a man into space to work, you want him to stay there for at least five years, preferably longer. So there will be much more pressure to make space outposts more liveable than oil rigs early on. But cost will severely constrain how far that can go, at least initially. The solution is higher pay.

Last edited by Antius (2017-01-30 06:13:10)

Antius · 2017-01-30 06:22:57

GW Johnson wrote:

What I had in mind was not a land ecology on a floating thing, but something like a ship, just a lot larger. It was a factory aquaculture farm, so food is no problem. Sell or trade surplus for what you don't make but want.
Use waste heat the way the Navy does to make fresh water out of sea water by vacuum flash distillation. That plus rainwater collection should be plenty. The sewage will have to be well-treated before discharge, or else you pollute the aquaculture operation.
Smallish crew of aquaculturists and the technicians that keep the ship-like systems running.
It's not colonization in the classic sense, but it's a start. As I said, I suspect we'll be driven to start doing that as the land agriculture output falls short with overpopulation and climate change.
GW

For a floating 'colony' the question will always be 'why not put engines on it and make it a ship that can go anywhere?' One could say that a cruise ship is in a sense an ocean colony, but no one wants to stay in the ocean long-term if they have a choice.

I like the idea of aquaculture. One thing I have always wanted to know: With so much algae and plankton floating in the upper layers of the ocean, would it ever be practicable to build a ship capable of extracting it with centrifuges? The concentrated biomass could then be pumped into anaerobic digester tanks on land and used to produce renewable natural gas. I would imagine the practicality would depend upon the ratio of energy harvested over energy invested. If the number is greater than 10, you are in business.

Terraformer · 2017-01-30 13:02:08

Or perhaps grow seaweed on netting? When it's grown, reel it in and harvest it.

SpaceNut · 2017-01-30 20:30:10

Every thing that is waste from growing food can go into the anaerobic digester tanks as well onboard to give the energy needs for night time use. Creating self suffieciency is one of the things that the american consumer no longer knows how or can not do...

SpaceNut · 2017-01-30 21:23:44

This is how to stabilize the waves for a floating platform...

844e67f145e775f18a3d2230d12917ba

Grypd · 2017-02-12 15:47:50

It should be noted that French Polynesia has signed a contract with the seasteading institute to build the first floating town.

Im not going into the hows and whys of sea level rise but french Polynesia is mostly a country of atolls and they are getting covered by the sea. The sea steading institute will build the first place where people will live permanently in a floating city.

Void · 2017-02-12 16:15:52

Grypd:
I like it and I also refer to this:
Terraformer said:

Or perhaps grow seaweed on netting? When it's grown, reel it in and harvest it.

I recall some time ago, likely before the internet that tests revealed that that might work nicely. Plant growth is enhanced by sea water say 6 feet deep.

Last edited by Void (2017-02-12 16:16:17)

SpaceNut · 2018-02-19 17:17:48

Finally found the old topic of water world use.....

SpaceNut · 2018-11-20 19:53:34

The issues of dumping plastics into the oceans Dead whale had 115 plastic cups, 2 flip-flops in its stomach

I think its time we started to control what we dump into the oceans and our land...

SpaceNut · 2019-04-06 20:39:41

We have a couple of topics that are being joined together as a result of excess plastic containers that are getting into the Oceans. Of course the recycling of plastics have gone from protecting mother earth to making money and it would seem back once more.

Analysis: Recycling isn't about the planet. It's about profit.

SpaceNut · 2019-05-02 16:47:21

Earths ocean have many dangers within them but here is another to look out for as Scientists track giant ocean vortex from space

The researchers analyzed sea level satellite data from 1993-2015 to understand how the Whirl changes from year to year and what it looks like under different climate conditions. Using 23 years of satellite data, the new findings show the Great Whirl is larger and longer-lived than scientists previously thought. At its peak, the giant whirlpool is, on average, 275,000 square kilometers (106,000 square miles) in area and persists for about 200 days out of the year.
The Great Whirl is a huge whirlpool that forms every spring off the coast of Somalia, when winds blowing across the Indian Ocean change direction from west to east. English geographer Alexander Findlay first described the Great Whirl in his navigational directory for the Indian Ocean in 1866.
The Great Whirl starts to form in April but its currents are deepest and strongest from June to September, during the official Indian monsoon season. A 2013 study using satellite data found that at its peak, the Whirl can grow to more than 500 kilometers (300 miles) wide, making it wider than the Grand Canyon is long.

SpaceNut · 2019-08-09 20:18:45

The InVADER project (In-situ Vent Analysis Divebot for Exobiology Research) to test technology for exploring ocean worlds

The would also work for europa as well

https://invader-mission.org/

Grypd · 2019-11-11 16:05:01

Still though the need for underwater colonies and there high costs is still to be proved there is a case for floating cities especially to the growing class of people who wish to experiment with different societies and countries. This is a major boon to us the space advocates.

SpaceNut · 2019-11-11 18:13:40

Not to get this topic into the political weeds as even china will take a boulder that is showing above water line and build it up to make an island....
Its sort of sad that we have abandoned oil wells that we are not allowed to recycle into ocean cities....

Mars_B4_Moon · 2021-09-10 04:48:31

SpaceNut wrote:

The ocean life will happen when you can no longer afford to live on land for sure.

I know some people who live their life on ships, their whole life is inside a boat.
Would people on Earth do it today if they could afford to 3-D print some underwater Bio-Dome

John Creighton wrote:

Why not just live underground?

Live Webcams of Alien Aquariums in a far of planet would be a nice view?

Grypd wrote:

Then it comes down to the simple question. Why would we want to go to that expense and effort for what is no practical purpose or gain in understanding.

For now I do not see much of the direct benefit, however there are others who do and are investing. In regards It might one day help colonization of a place called Europa

'aquanauts evaluated'
https://phys.org/news/2014-09-nasa-extr … neemo.html

Grypd wrote:

It should be noted that French Polynesia has signed a contract with the seasteading institute to build the first floating town.

Going back to France, there is a video link, Very Jacques Cousteau like

“World Without Sun” was filmed, a documentary about the establishment and occupation of the Conshelf 2 “underwater village”.

SpaceNut wrote:

I guess the point I was trying to make was that even though we have the oceans right here for us to occupy, even though we have the technology and the sciencetific desire to explore ant to learn about them. We chose to not because it is hard to do, it requires great infrastucture to use everday and that what we have are depend on earth resources rather than becoming selfsufficient.

Do you think a Colony on Jupiter's underwater Moon could be healthy and in communication with the other Moons and Planets?

This was back then?
http://www.drewexmachina.com/2015/08/21 … -gemini-5/
Before they returned home, the Gemini 5 crew participated in a unique communications experiment. Cooper and Conrad briefly talked with former Mercury astronaut Scott Carpenter who was living in Sealab II at the time. Sealab II was the second in a series of underwater habitats developed by the US Navy to prove the viability of saturation diving and humans living in isolation for extended periods of time – issues not unlike those being addressed by NASA’s crewed space program. With a crew of four other “aquanauts”, Carpenter, who was technically still on NASA’s astronaut roster, was spending 30 days at a depth of 62 meters off the coast of La Jolla, California while his fellow aquanauts rotated through two-week stays in Sealab II (for a US Navy documentary on Sealab II, see the Related Video section below). The conversation of these two Mercury veterans exploring two different alien frontiers was surely one of the more unusual moments in the history of the Gemini program.

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#76 2017-01-26 12:20:37

Re: Earths Oceans Explored - but why not colonized

#77 2017-01-26 19:51:49

Re: Earths Oceans Explored - but why not colonized

#78 2017-01-28 01:00:12

Re: Earths Oceans Explored - but why not colonized

#79 2017-01-28 13:45:19

Re: Earths Oceans Explored - but why not colonized

#80 2017-01-28 18:20:51

Re: Earths Oceans Explored - but why not colonized

#81 2017-01-28 21:45:58

Re: Earths Oceans Explored - but why not colonized

#82 2017-01-28 23:08:45

Re: Earths Oceans Explored - but why not colonized

#83 2017-01-29 10:04:59

Re: Earths Oceans Explored - but why not colonized

#84 2017-01-29 13:02:26

Re: Earths Oceans Explored - but why not colonized

#85 2017-01-29 19:30:24

Re: Earths Oceans Explored - but why not colonized

#86 2017-01-30 06:09:39

Re: Earths Oceans Explored - but why not colonized

#87 2017-01-30 06:22:57

Re: Earths Oceans Explored - but why not colonized

#88 2017-01-30 13:02:08

Re: Earths Oceans Explored - but why not colonized

#89 2017-01-30 20:30:10

Re: Earths Oceans Explored - but why not colonized

#90 2017-01-30 21:23:44

Re: Earths Oceans Explored - but why not colonized

#91 2017-02-12 15:47:50

Re: Earths Oceans Explored - but why not colonized

#92 2017-02-12 16:15:52

Re: Earths Oceans Explored - but why not colonized

#93 2018-02-19 17:17:48

Re: Earths Oceans Explored - but why not colonized

#94 2018-11-20 19:53:34

Re: Earths Oceans Explored - but why not colonized

#95 2019-04-06 20:39:41

Re: Earths Oceans Explored - but why not colonized

#96 2019-05-02 16:47:21

Re: Earths Oceans Explored - but why not colonized

#97 2019-08-09 20:18:45

Re: Earths Oceans Explored - but why not colonized

#98 2019-11-11 16:05:01

Re: Earths Oceans Explored - but why not colonized

#99 2019-11-11 18:13:40

Re: Earths Oceans Explored - but why not colonized

#100 2021-09-10 04:48:31

Re: Earths Oceans Explored - but why not colonized

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