NDSS National Department of Space Settlement - We've explored, now let's occupy!

Cobra Commander · 2004-09-10 05:16:17

Re. corporations undertaking settlement. While it has some legal benefits, the simple fact is that the money isn't there. At present only governments can amass the sort of capital required, particularly when there is little immediate profit potential.

*Ok Robert, I'm finished here, let's roll!*

Didn't I say we should recruit these guys to our side? Now they're gonna blow themselves up on a cobbled together Energiya trying to beat us.

SpaceNut · 2004-09-10 06:40:57

I hope they win and are sucessful (snicker. snicker) :laugh: for Nasa needs a good old fashion kick in the pants to get them moving. Also the big rocket makers in Boeing and Lockheed better pay attention this month for the succesful runs from the SpaceShipOne for they may be out of a job sooner than they think for building Nasa's Next CEV.

One can have wishful thinking too...

comstar03 · 2004-09-10 07:10:00

cobra,

Where do you think the government gets its funds from people and corporations and the bulk of the money is handled through corporations, ( wages taxes, income taxes, sales taxes, customs duties, and more )

settlements are built by corporations , planned townships are visioned by one person or owner of a corporation then implemented. The same can happen for development outside in space. You just bring the require skills and resources to bearer on the issues and build solutions.

Cobra Commander · 2004-09-10 07:22:57

Where do you think the government gets its funds from people and corporations and the bulk of the money is handled through corporations, ( wages taxes, income taxes, sales taxes, customs duties, and more )

Yes, government must get its funds from corporations among other sources because government doesn't produce anything. It also doesn't exist to make profit, the model is different. Corporations don't invest the vast bulk of their assets in a project that may be profitable in two decades. Government on the hand can be persuaded to invest far more in real assets (though proportionately much less) in such projects if national interests are at stake or if, in republics such as the US, public support is strong.

It is easier to convince the masses to support a bold undertaking than to convince a board of directors to stake their financial future on a dream.

comstar03 · 2004-09-10 07:42:47

Cobra,

Not a Private corporation, because the owners are the directors or in large family corporations one member is the large shareholder and makes the decisions.

Anyhow it wouldn't take all the resources of the corporation to do it because some of the assets would have been already being used for the corporation. ( eg. satellite and ground station equipment )

Anyhow, would could a government do about stopping a private corporation building into space, NOTHING !!!! Just add space tourism, navigation satellite communication and information channels - licensing income, satellite development contracts, solar power station income, research stations leasing income, and more and more and more, ways to create wealth from space other than sale of property ( like apartment sales )

Cobra Commander · 2004-09-10 07:54:11

Anyhow, would could a government do about stopping a private corporation building into space, NOTHING !!!!

Aside from taxing them out of existence.

But here's the thing, sure you can make money with satellites, it's done all the time. Space tourism may become a profitable market in time, there's all kinds of space-based cash cows.

But none of these things directly further settlement. Even if a corporation amassed the capital needed through the other endeavors you mention (a big if) what would make them turn around and blow it all on settlement?

I'm not saying that corporations should have no role or even that they can't do it necessarily, but a unified government project with the explicit goal of settlement would be more effective than a corporation eventually starting a settlement as a result of some other profit-oriented goal. A government program doesn't even preclude direct corporate participation.

BWhite · 2004-09-10 08:54:40

Anyhow, would could a government do about stopping a private corporation building into space, NOTHING !!!!
Aside from taxing them out of existence.

They could also deny launch permits.

The idea that North Korea or Iran might develop orbital launch capability causes apoplexy (and rightfully so, IMHO) amongst the NORAD generals.

Ain't no one going to LEO without at least one major space power actively cooperating and without at least the tacit approval of the Pentagon.

deagleninja · 2004-09-10 09:12:04

The whole reason I suggested a NDSS is that government backing for a space settelement effort would legitimize existing efforts across the globe to do such. Japan wants lunar hotels and Bigelow wants orbiting homes.

It's going to happen with or without governemnt participation. However, with a government front it becomes much more acceptable to the public. Just watch and see if we don't jump on the bandwagon federally. You can't regulate something you don't have access to, right? If someone makes it work, then the government will follow.

deagleninja · 2004-09-10 09:25:17

BWhite, if company X goes to the Dept. of Transportation to get a licence for LEO travels or beyond, do you really think that they will say no?

Now granted, they are going to check out the vehicle, launch area, require test runs, etc, but in the end they pretty much have to give the licence if everything checks out, right?

SpaceNut · 2004-09-10 09:31:47

That is the whole senerio that all the Xprize contestants are going though. It is not a pretty sight, with the mounds of paper and regulations to go though.

xprize.org

Cobra Commander · 2004-09-10 10:28:11

It has been brought to my attention that we've overlooked something in this discussion. Something of great significance to the future of any American settlement program.

What America do we seek to plant on other worlds? What do we today consider to be the core of what it is to be "American"?

Do we seek to expand the America of hardworking, industrious freedom-loving people? Such would be my goal, but we have another America to contend with.

Wipe that John Edwards grin off your face, that's not the "other America" I'm talking about. I'm referring to the consumer culture of instant gratification, quick fix, "I'm entitled" gimme now America.

One drives around in a pickup truck that actually carries cargo of some sort. Working hard to provide for themselves and their families so that their children will have it better than they do. This is what we need if we are to settle space, self-reliant hard-working people out to build a better future for their descendents as well as themselves.

Contrast with the America of those who yap on the cell phone while they follow you around the parking lot at the mall in their Escalade to find a parking spot just ten feet closer to the door. Such people are not ideal candidates for building new worlds.

Very likely what may occur with a vigorous settlement program is that many of the former group, the hard-working disciplined "classical" Americans will just up and leave! There will be a gulf in values and culture between America and her off-world colonies. Those who leave will own the future, those who stay will watch their slow decay and growing distance from those noble souls who set out to new frontiers.

In time the same process will repeat, and it will be time once again to set out for new frontiers. An American space settlement program is a natural continuation of our own history, I submit to you that expanding into new territory led by the most independent and industrious of us is part of what it is to be American. To deny this drive, this need, is to deny a large part of who we are. We are an expansionist people, we've just been resting for the last century. It's time to get back underway.

BWhite · 2004-09-10 10:32:50

BWhite, if company X goes to the Dept. of Transportation to get a licence for LEO travels or beyond, do you really think that they will say no?
Now granted, they are going to check out the vehicle, launch area, require test runs, etc, but in the end they pretty much have to give the licence if everything checks out, right?

Why?

International treaties say the United States government is liable for damages to third parties if a spacecraft launched from US soil crashes in their city.

Ask foreign professors who are critical of the Adminstration whether getting a visa to attend academic conferences in the US is "easy" or a "rubber stamp" - - if the President or the Pentagon did not support your private venture. no one will say "No" but getting a "Yes" will always require one more study or impact report.

Completed in triplicate originals with 17 conformed copies.

= = =

It would be easier to acquire your own country.

If you can afford a space settlement you could also afford to buy (no! make that contribute to the campaign fund) of the ruler of some Pacific island, ideally on the equator.

BWhite · 2004-09-10 10:33:57

It has been brought to my attention that we've overlooked something in this discussion. Something of great significance to the future of any American settlement program.
What America do we seek to plant on other worlds? What do we today consider to be the core of what it is to be "American"?

Always follow the golden rule.

He who writes the golden check also writes the rules.

deagleninja · 2004-09-10 13:40:31

Nice post Cobra. And you didn't sound all gloom and doom like I do when i say basically the same thing.

History has shown us that countries are a lot like living organisms. They struggle to find a niche at first. Then they have to deal with their parents. Then when they reach maturity they begin to decay. Somewhere before the decay sets in completely, they also usually start colonizes. Look at England and the US's relationship for a good analogy of what I mean.

Some people argue that the decay of a pampered society is what drives the colonizing effort and I tend to agree. America is very much like England was when it colonized us. Leader of the world, strong conservative religious ties, and an economy that is spoiling its citizens.

I feel Cobra's question of who will settle the new frontier to be somewhat mute. The decadent don't want new horizons to explore as they are very much wrapped up in themselves and could care less. Now a few will likely find themselves along for the ride because many of the most decadent are born into wealth.

It is a fact of nature that struggle defines us. Without challenges we shrivel up and die (mentally if not physically). Nations too need to grow or they stagnate.

However, the real question is 'is it already too late?'. I fear we may have missed the boat so to speak when it comes to creating our own colony. Academic performance in the US hit its peak shortly after the Apollo program and has been sliding since. We now 'import' a substancial amount of our learned people as fewer and fewer college graduates are prepared to be leaders in their respective feilds.

This could conceivably change should we find something we need on the Moon like helium-3 for instance. We still have a lot of economic muscle to toss around and that can make a huge difference. I personally believe it will be China taking the lead in any colonizing effort. Their lifestyles of conservation and population control make them ideally suited for frontier life. They are also not spoiled like most Americans. Imagine China granting passage on its ships to the Moon for hardworking Chinesse willing to work 20 years to pay for their trip and the freedom to have many children and believe what they want.

Oh yes......the Chinesse are coming!! (going?) ???

Euler · 2004-09-10 13:59:51

We now 'import' a substancial amount of our learned people as fewer and fewer college graduates are prepared to be leaders in their respective feilds.

America has always imported a substantial amount of it's 'learned people'. Just look at Albert Einstein, Enrico Fermi, Werner Von Braun, etc. The question is whether or not we will be able to continue to steal the best and brightest scientist and engineers from the rest of the world.

comstar03 · 2004-09-10 18:05:09

Interesting questions,

Starting with Cobra, settlement is based on policy and implementation, you need an economy to bring people to settle they must have the core items that they have on earth in the space platform or ground based colony. Secondly administration of these colonies or platforms are similar to corporations or semi-government authorities. It depends on the governing rules that structure the decision-making of the colony or platform or group of colonies and / or platforms.

I didn't say that governments of earth couldn't have representatives on these pltforms or colonies similar to embassies on earth but doesn't mean that they are the only way to create settlements.

Next, BWhite, Rights to launch in space, well, it depends on what actions that might be taken by your government to stop the activities, for example - if it was determined no real evidence of safety or other transport issue then they haven't got a reason for stopping the launch or for national security interests then that's different , and guarantee if they can't stop you in the commercial / safet reason they will stop you for National Interests, ( if they want to stop you ) then you would need to know how far can you go - to prevent against by the government ( legally - court battles, media battles, global compaign or last resort by force - then use weaknesses of opponent against themselves )

Next, deagleninja, we might start the colonies, and platforms in space but they can change over years to have a culture and personality of their own, at that time the colonies would be governments in their own right to make decisions, then we need a integrated alliance to assemble the whole human race. They might eventually make a off-world / on-world bias. Its human nature, it depends on the policies and process that govern the colonies, platforms, ships and other activities in space and on earth.

If any one was going to build a Department of Space Settlement it should be United Nations and do it for the whole world, thus expand the outer space treaty and build a united front into space or everyone will got there own ways, and it will be fun to participate in.

Commodore · 2004-09-10 18:26:07

If any one was going to build a Department of Space Settlement it should be United Nations and do it for the whole world, thus expand the outer space treaty and build a united front into space or everyone will got there own ways, and it will be fun to participate in.

The UN? In its current form?

Over my dead body.

comstar03 · 2004-09-10 19:07:24

Commodore,

Then come up with alternative or provide address for ex- cia hitman to terminate your life.

SpaceNut · 2004-09-10 19:25:25

But with the UN as the seat of power I feel that we will have the same problems as we do today with America for the most part becoming the police force of the world with resistance from the UN when it comes to enforcement for crimes committed by other nation. I May be wrong but that is how it seems.

Commodore · 2004-09-10 19:34:47

But with the UN as the seat of power I feel that we will have the same problems as we do today with America for the most part becoming the police force of the world with resistance from the UN when it comes to enforcement for crimes committed by other nation. I May be wrong but that is how it seems.

Thats part of it.

But the UN as a whole is not governing body. It was designed as debate forum to solve disputes.

comstar03 · 2004-09-10 19:57:44

Commodore,

I don't see a solution to the UN , what's your address ? your not many solutions ?? calling local hitman !!!!!

Dook · 2004-09-10 21:56:24

Some problems with this idea:
1) Very high cost
2) Unacceptable risk to human life
3) No benefit

Other than that it's an idea I would expect to hear from a six year old.

comstar03 · 2004-09-10 22:08:40

Sorry, commodore , just having some fun at your expense.

In fact, whatever we come up with as a settlement proposal or plan won't get up in America or the World, because it will make the other groups of people or countries think about the process and also think of all their biases ( racial, religious, cultural, or just go country bashing (hate them Amercians) or anti-globalizationists or another group ) at the end of the day the people want to do should do, and develop there own plan, and where they have problems look for other groups that could work with them with the skills to match without any issues, ( disregard old borders or backgrounds)

Space of 21 st Century is alot different of the 20th Century mindset.

comstar03 · 2004-09-10 22:32:27

What about this !!!!!

then let's charge anyone coming to the moon or mars, a parking fee for orbit; development fees on planet. The first to build a permanent settlement then has the right to charge orbit parking fees, in goods or earth currency where a vessels doesn't pay the orbit then its a criminal offense of that planet and can be enforcable in earth courts.

The first thing we would setup is a Mars advocate and Moon advocate that would act for those bodies on earth to set pricings for leasing of settlement facilities and orbital parking licenses and mining royalties and more, thus establish the basis of the ruling council for each body. This will determine fair costs based on example wharf fees on earth shipping or airline landing fees, government development permits, and other costings that are incurred by business on earth and relate them to Moon and Mars.

We can use the same system above for earth orbit as well, the fees are paid to a global space authority for the management of near earth space atomsphere to halfway to the moon. These fees would be able to fund the ongoing global structural development for space enforcement, legal and economic analysis functions.

I know that currently its a gentlemen's agreement between the countries under the outer space treaty. This is taking the process to the next step of tri-planetary evolution.

Mad Grad Student · 2004-09-10 22:59:33

My view about public vs. private space settlement:

The fiscal reasons for private industry to settle space are tenuous at best. Quixotic ventures like lunar Helium-3 mining, lunar tourism, Martian deuterium mining, et al are very infrastructure intesnsive and would take a looooooooong time to pay out in the end, if ever. Idealogicallly, however, there are enourmous reasons to go out and stake your claim (that I think everyone here understands so I don't need to go into). If a private company with leaders bold rich and crazy enough became seriously profitable in LEO, they could venture out and create, say, a few fledgling colonies on the Moon or Mars just for the heck of it. They'd never turn a profit, but hey, if all people like Elon Musk, John Carmack, Andrew Beal, Jeff Bezos, and Paul Allen wanted was to make money they'd never have left their respective mega-corporations. Unlikely but possible.

Once again, I don't care how we colonize the solar system, I just want it to be done, asap. If private corporations can do it, great, otherwise let's stop sitting on our laurels feeding $200 billion into the Middle East and start using that money on something worthwhile, our exodus. Mr. President, are you listening!?

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