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#1 2004-06-12 13:54:49

Palomar
Member
From: USA
Registered: 2002-05-30
Posts: 9,734

Re: Domestic vs Industrial

*I'm hoping we get there on a domestic basis initially -- and mostly.  You?

--Cindy


We all know those Venusians: Doing their hair in shock waves, smoking electrical coronas, wearing Van Allen belts and resting their tiny elbows on a Geiger counter...

--John Sladek (The New Apocrypha)

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#2 2004-06-12 19:09:04

Hazer
Member
From: Texas/Oklahoma
Registered: 2003-10-26
Posts: 173

Re: Domestic vs Industrial

Well, I think a bit of both will be necessary.  It wouldn't bother me if it started on an industrial basis, as like it or not--Martians are going to need lots of industry just to stay alive. 
Plus, having good industries might jumpstart interplanetary commerce.
However, I don't want to see Mars become a Pullman town where the company owns all the houses and infrastructure, and maintains the value of currency (Company stores anyone?)  Such a thing would be bad.


In the interests of my species
I am a firm supporter of stepping out into this great universe both armed and dangerous.

Bootprints in red dust, or bust!

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#3 2004-06-13 03:05:24

Rxke
Member
From: Belgium
Registered: 2003-11-03
Posts: 3,658

Re: Domestic vs Industrial

What do you mean with "domestic", Cindy? Home-production, or...
(I'm probably confused, thinking about the industrial revolution, where domestic production was being overtaken by industrial production...)
:hm:


ExoMars' launcher's 2nd stage is probably en route to Mars. Unsterilised... yikes

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#4 2004-06-13 07:45:47

Palomar
Member
From: USA
Registered: 2002-05-30
Posts: 9,734

Re: Domestic vs Industrial

What do you mean with "domestic", Cindy? Home-production, or...
(I'm probably confused, thinking about the industrial revolution, where domestic production was being overtaken by industrial production...)
:hm:

*Hi Rik.  Sorry.  By "domestic" I mean family- and/or community-oriented settlements/colonies "living off the land" and engaged in agriculture as necessary to their survival, etc.

--Cindy


We all know those Venusians: Doing their hair in shock waves, smoking electrical coronas, wearing Van Allen belts and resting their tiny elbows on a Geiger counter...

--John Sladek (The New Apocrypha)

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#5 2004-06-13 09:31:56

Rxke
Member
From: Belgium
Registered: 2003-11-03
Posts: 3,658

Re: Domestic vs Industrial

Thank, you Cindy!

'kay, off to the voting boot, *again*... (Already voted for EU parlement and our own Flemish errr... concil (translating politics not my strong point is!) today, it's getting a habit.


ExoMars' launcher's 2nd stage is probably en route to Mars. Unsterilised... yikes

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#6 2004-06-13 18:15:12

Gennaro
Member
From: Eta Cassiopeiae (no, Sweden re
Registered: 2003-03-25
Posts: 591

Re: Domestic vs Industrial

I voted "domestic". Only when the Martian economy integrate and diversify will industry and interplanetary commerce come into play.
No one would go to Mars for the business opportunities, since there are none (yet).

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#7 2004-06-14 08:05:30

Cobra Commander
Member
From: The outskirts of Detroit.
Registered: 2002-04-09
Posts: 3,039

Re: Domestic vs Industrial

Whichever comes first, the one will lead to the other. In the end it's all pretty much the same.


Build a man a fire and he's warm for a day. Set a man on fire and he's warm for the rest of his life.

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#8 2004-06-19 18:35:32

Palomar
Member
From: USA
Registered: 2002-05-30
Posts: 9,734

Re: Domestic vs Industrial

Whichever comes first, the one will lead to the other. In the end it's all pretty much the same.

*That seems true.  But I'm not sure.  Have been chewing on all this for a while, before responding again.

I'd hate for domesticity and civilization to take a "back seat" to mining and such (and I'd like to keep mining to a minimum and I can't condone exploitation at all...)

Okay, so I'm not a sociologist or whatever, but here's how I'd like to see civilization on Mars "take off":

1.  Begins with small colonies devoted to the hard sciences.  (::edit::  And sciences remain at the forefront)
2.  Domestics are developed:  Breeding small animals, agridomes, horticulture, etc.
3.  First Mars-born humans and development of family and/or communal (not to be confused with Communism) life. 
4.  As colonies expand, intelligent and conservative expansion of tapping into natural resources.
5.  Limited mining which excludes big corporations/conglomerates, i.e. that which will be beneficial to Marsians mostly/only (yeah I know...probably will not happen, but let me indulge my hopes a bit...).
6.  Further expansion of colonies into small cities.  (::edit::  Agriculture expands further, necessarily)

Not Utopian and not overlooking the fact that every grouping of humans contains negative aspects as well.

Just some thoughts.  :-\

--Cindy

P.S.:  Again, I'd prefer civilization -not- be some sort of "afterthought".


We all know those Venusians: Doing their hair in shock waves, smoking electrical coronas, wearing Van Allen belts and resting their tiny elbows on a Geiger counter...

--John Sladek (The New Apocrypha)

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#9 2004-06-20 09:19:56

Martian Republic
Member
From: Haltom City- Dallas/Fort Worth
Registered: 2004-06-13
Posts: 855

Re: Domestic vs Industrial

*I'm hoping we get there on a domestic basis initially -- and mostly.  You?

--Cindy

Actually I would like an agro-industrial-mining-science city on Mars. Until you go big, you won't have any staying power on Mars or ability to replicate building another city on Mars. So I would plan on going big right off the bat or other wise your just going to compromise and any settlement you make on Mars and it will probably be just a temporary settlement. After a few year, people will lose interest in Mars. It will lose it enchantment the way that we went to the moon and it lost it enchantment. Oh, you want to go back to the moon, we already been there. Why go back? A high technology city in excess of a hundred thousand people with a agro-industrial base will have staying on Mars for a long time. We need to sell the vision of a Martian City and that there will be a technological pay back like the NASA Moon Mission did. Or otherwise we will be lucky to get a Glorified Apollo Moon Mission type mission for Mars and then going to Mars will lose it enchantment. Oh, we been there too. Why would you want to go back?

Larry,

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#10 2004-06-20 10:42:24

Josh Cryer
Administrator
Registered: 2001-09-29
Posts: 3,830

Re: Domestic vs Industrial

Domestic, no one has sufficiently convinced me that mining from Mars willl even be remotely economical. smile

Zubrin's ideas about selling ideas from Mars are the closest thing to export I can imagine, but I think that that could be reduced to not being profitable quite easily.

http://www.transhumanist.com/volume4/space.htm


Some useful links while MER are active. Offical site NASA TV JPL MER2004 Text feed
--------
The amount of solar radiation reaching the surface of the earth totals some 3.9 million exajoules a year.

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#11 2004-06-21 08:15:01

Cobra Commander
Member
From: The outskirts of Detroit.
Registered: 2002-04-09
Posts: 3,039

Re: Domestic vs Industrial

Like Josh I'm not sold on the idea of mining Mars for export. I have yet to find the holy grail of Mars profit that would drive colonization. Precious metals, maybe under conditions other than those we currently have. Deuterium, not buyin' it. Nothin' quite leaps out as "it." The prospects for 'corporate Mars' seem slim without a city already in place.

But the only way I can see a government setting up a permanent colony is out of nationalistic motives. Claim the planet and show up the neighbors all at once. The United States has gotten this idea that nationalism and expansion for its own sake is a bad thing. If we don't get over that, I don't see us colonizing Mars. We may land there first, but that's all that seems likely.

If we find some uber-export that Earth must have, fine. I can accept a mining-based start. Otherwise, maybe we should start dusting off that Manifest Destiny idea. Mars because it's there, because it's ours, because we can. Further the frontiers of liberty and the American way, and without even having to fights hostile natives.

In short, the 'agricultural community set up to further peaceful human progress and the brotherhood of all mankind' undercurrent that runs through some of these discussions... I don't see it. Exploitation or symbolic conquest, therein lies the key. And we presently don't have the temperment for either.


Build a man a fire and he's warm for a day. Set a man on fire and he's warm for the rest of his life.

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#12 2004-06-21 08:33:12

clark
Member
Registered: 2001-09-20
Posts: 6,253

Re: Domestic vs Industrial

How does a wily monkey get another wily monkey to trade his banana for a useless rock?

He polishes it and calls it a "diamond".

Mars is red with auburn dew,
Another planet for the few
who dare, who dream, who do declare
that this world is ever fair,
and lovely to behold;
give us the vacuum, the frozen cold,
for dull as this land may seem,
for us, this jewel does ever gleem.

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#13 2004-06-21 10:08:17

Grypd
Member
From: Scotland, Europe
Registered: 2004-06-07
Posts: 1,850

Re: Domestic vs Industrial

I have the belief that to start on the right course, both agriculture and industry have to be given the same priority.

Any martian population that can make most items themselves and live without what they cant are independent in all but name.

This also allows a facility to be cheaper to operate and able to replicate itself. But a purely mining type exploitation start, no it is not going to happen.


Chan eil mi aig a bheil ùidh ann an gleidheadh an status quo; Tha mi airson cur às e.

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#14 2004-06-23 20:08:25

Aetius
Member
From: New England USA
Registered: 2002-01-20
Posts: 173

Re: Domestic vs Industrial

I seriously doubt that Mars will ever be able to export precious metals to Earth for profit.

However, mining and other large-scale exploitation of natural resources will be crucial to ensuring the viability of Martian civilization. It is that or watch everything they've built die on the vine.

I have zero desire to see bone-dry, radioactive desert be 'conserved'. Strip mine it, pave it, build a habitat on it or beneath it. My value system dictates that economic growth and a high standard of living for humans are more important than preserving a pretty view of rocks.

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#15 2004-06-25 09:29:54

Dook
Banned
From: USA
Registered: 2004-01-09
Posts: 1,409

Re: Domestic vs Industrial

I think the only humans on mars will be scientists for a very, very, long time.  Civilians go all that way just to live out their lives in a dome or underground habitat?  Not until it's terraformed enough for an atmosphere.

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#16 2004-06-25 10:57:26

~Eternal~
Member
Registered: 2003-09-25
Posts: 211

Re: Domestic vs Industrial

I had to choose:
B1) It would trouble me if colonization began *only on the basis of* mining and exploitation
Because just:
B1) It would trouble me if colonization began *only on the basis of* mining

Wasn't an option sad


The MiniTruth passed its first act #001, comname: PATRIOT ACT on  October 26, 2001.

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#17 2004-06-25 14:34:05

Aetius
Member
From: New England USA
Registered: 2002-01-20
Posts: 173

Re: Domestic vs Industrial

Frankly, I think you could find at least one million people on Earth right now who'd go live on Mars as it is.

I certainly would, and I know I'm not alone.

Terraforming is a pipe dream for Martians to worry about implementing (and paying for), after they've developed large scale industry and possess a sizable tax base. Mars interests me because of its riches and its possibilities as the home of a new civilization.

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#18 2004-06-26 16:14:38

Martian Republic
Member
From: Haltom City- Dallas/Fort Worth
Registered: 2004-06-13
Posts: 855

Re: Domestic vs Industrial

Frankly, I think you could find at least one million people on Earth right now who'd go live on Mars as it is.

I certainly would, and I know I'm not alone.

Terraforming is a pipe dream for Martians to worry about implementing (and paying for), after they've developed large scale industry and possess a sizable tax base. Mars interests me because of its riches and its possibilities as the home of a new civilization.

Frankly, I agree with you. We should be thinking of building a city that can support a large number of people and figure that the Tereforming going to come later. The tereforming part of Mars is going to be a long drawn out process that will take hundred year or even several hundred year get very much progress on the tereforming part of Mars.

Larry,

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#19 2004-06-26 19:10:59

~Eternal~
Member
Registered: 2003-09-25
Posts: 211

Re: Domestic vs Industrial

Won't industry itself be terraforming (PFCs anyone?)


The MiniTruth passed its first act #001, comname: PATRIOT ACT on  October 26, 2001.

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#20 2004-06-26 19:39:47

Aetius
Member
From: New England USA
Registered: 2002-01-20
Posts: 173

Re: Domestic vs Industrial

Oh, sure it will. There's just a difference between the incidentally [possibly] beneficial effects of industrial waste, and a bureaucratic program of vast scale with all kinds of implications for the culture and economy of Mars.

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#21 2004-07-01 16:21:10

Ian Flint
Member
From: Colorado
Registered: 2003-09-24
Posts: 437

Re: Domestic vs Industrial

I don't think mining and exploitation will be a very big problem for at least a couple of centuries.  Look at the Earth.  Most of the 6 billion people here crowd together in towns and cities.  That leaves nothing but open spaces between these cities.

I've lived in Mexico and the U.S.A., and what I've always noticed is that when you travel from one city to another all you see is nature.  There may be a few farms or houses here and there, but nature is still there in a big way.

Now, on Mars it will take a long, long, long time to even make a dent in Martian nature.  People will tend to crowd together there even more than on Earth, and there will be thousands on Mars as opposed to billions here.  So, even if everyone on Mars digs an open pit mine, there will be plenty of room to get away from it for the rest of your life, and your children's lives too.  Mars has the same land surface area as Earth for heavens sake!

And, since the horizon will be closer on Mars, city dwellers will have a shorter distance to travel to "get out into the country."

Don't worry...Be happy!
Whooooo...whoo...whoo...whoo...
Doo doo bee doo bee dooooooo...
Doo bee doo bee doo bee doooooo...
Doo bee doo bee doooooo...

:band:

We need a Jamaican smiley.

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#22 2004-07-01 20:28:56

Palomar
Member
From: USA
Registered: 2002-05-30
Posts: 9,734

Re: Domestic vs Industrial

And, since the horizon will be closer on Mars, city dwellers will have a shorter distance to travel to "get out into the country."

Don't worry...Be happy!
Whooooo...whoo...whoo...whoo...
Doo doo bee doo bee dooooooo...
Doo bee doo bee doo bee doooooo...
Doo bee doo bee doooooo...

:band:

We need a Jamaican smiley.

*Good points you make, Ian.  And I got a kick out of the reminder of the "Don't Worry, Be Happy" song.

(Now I have a feeling I'm going to have that song stuck in my head for half an hour or so!  My brain takes to some songs like tastebuds to candy, I tell you.)  wink

--Cindy


We all know those Venusians: Doing their hair in shock waves, smoking electrical coronas, wearing Van Allen belts and resting their tiny elbows on a Geiger counter...

--John Sladek (The New Apocrypha)

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#23 2004-07-02 08:37:17

Ian Flint
Member
From: Colorado
Registered: 2003-09-24
Posts: 437

Re: Domestic vs Industrial

:laugh:

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#24 2004-07-14 19:41:30

Earthfirst
Member
From: Phoenix Arizona
Registered: 2002-09-25
Posts: 343

Re: Domestic vs Industrial

Agriculture society would be best on mars, it is also the best way to advoid all the problems of big citys.


I love plants!

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#25 2004-07-15 16:35:57

Aetius
Member
From: New England USA
Registered: 2002-01-20
Posts: 173

Re: Domestic vs Industrial

Farms are nice, but they don't manufacture anything useful besides food.

That's why your ancestors lost the Civil War to us Yankees, remember?  big_smile

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