Huygens Probe to Titan

Palomar · 2004-02-04 06:47:21

Also there are difficulties to fund missions like Europa Orbiter or Europa Lander (submarine ). And I think Europa is more interesting and of more importance.
So, alas, Titan must wait. If we only had more funds for space exploration!

*Hi Arccos. You and I also share an interest in Europa, apparently. Yes, I'd love to see missions to it as well (understatement!):

[http://www.newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=1509]New Mars Europa Thread

Unfortunately it is Europa which is currently having to wait. Yes, if only we had the funding for more missions...throughout the entire Solar System.

--Cindy

Mark · 2004-02-04 18:23:26

Europa is a very interesting moon indeed. The problem with it is the amount of radiation there, but it IS possible for some kind of aquatic life to live in it's oceans(ie, alien fish or microbes) - it's not impossible, put it that way.

Back on topic, Titan is a total mystery, it's surface has never, ever been seen or explored for that fact. Some scientists seem to believe there is land there, but also vast oceans of liquid methane. The surface is extremely cold -178 degrees.

In terms of getting humans on there, it should be possible within this century I believe - very possible. The good thing is that the surface pressure is 1.5 bars or so, which is the equivalent of a 10ft deep swimming pool(about 3.05 meters), so pressure won't be a problem unlike Mars, the gravity of it, I'm not 100 percent sure what it is there, but the biggest problem seems to be the cold without a doubt and the travelling distance on current technology(it's way too long at the moment). But hey, at least it's not too hot, since it's harder to battle extreme heat temperatures(ie, Venus for instance).

I can't wait for the Huygens Probe to decent through Titan's thick atmosphere and send back photos of what lies beneath, it could possibly end up being one of the most interesting discovers within our solar system yet.

Mad Grad Student · 2004-02-04 22:23:56

P.S.: Mad Grad Student: You asked in "Free Chat" what my ID means. It's French for "crush the infamous" - a phrase Voltaire used quite often relating to fighting censorship, oppression, injustice, torture, etc.

I see, very nice! So ecraser means to crush. Hmm, I'll have to find a way to tie that in sometime in my French class. "Bonjour, Madame. J'ecrase vous!" Actually, that would be kind of weird, or I at least would have to find the words for like and cockroach.

The idea of a Titan explorer is cool, as is a Neptune orbiter. I hope outer planet exploration dosen't get left behind in the wake of all this Martian excitment. On with exploration!

Shaun Barrett · 2004-02-05 01:36:01

Titanian gravity is about 1/7th of terrestrial gravity.
If we're ever to visit such places, we'll definitely have to be using nuclear technology; nuclear propulsion of one sort or another to get there and back and nuclear reactors for habs on the surface. The only alternative to nuclear power in the inner solar system (aside from chemical rockets) is solar electric but, at Saturn's distance from the Sun, solar won't provide enough energy.

The anti-nuclear lobby may yet be instrumental in bringing about a de facto ban on human exploration of the outer planets and their moons.

brthrjon · 2004-02-05 13:08:08

Is anyone aware of the solution which will be implemented to ameliorate the communication issue between hugens and cassinni? I think alot of the options would have shortened the mission substantially, but I never heard a final decision

atitarev · 2004-02-05 17:24:25

The anti-nuclear lobby may yet be instrumental in bringing about a de facto ban on human exploration of the outer planets and their moons.

Shaun, do you mean, they will be against using nuclear power on outer planets or because of the risk of explosion during the launch? If the first, why would they care what happens billions of miles away from Earth?

If the second, then it's more difficult. Need to make sure the nuclear material doesn't explode on Earth even if the explorer does.

Marineris Sauce · 2004-02-05 23:14:17

Yes, if only we had the funding for more missions...throughout the entire Solar System.

Titan is a total mystery,... In terms of getting humans on there, it should be possible within this century I believe - very possible.

I hope outer planet exploration dosen't get left behind in the wake of all this Martian excitment. On with exploration!

Alas! if only there were enough life in ones lifetime to witness it all unfold!...

Arccos · 2004-02-06 01:36:33

To Atitarev: Both reasons. I understand they are worried about possibility of nuclear risks during start.
However I have already read something about initiative 'Don't spoil Mars with atoms!' (or similar). What can a reasonable man answer to this stupid hysteria? Rather do nothing but send the 'disastrous' atoms to Mars!

Arccos · 2004-02-06 01:48:35

To brthrjon: The communication issue was related to (quite embarassingly) omitted doppler effect. It's been decided to postpone Huygens separation and descent by several months, so the descent is planned for another orbit around Saturn. This will result in a better position of Cassini and descending Huygens thereby reducing speed difference between them and doppler effect as well.

Shaun Barrett · 2004-02-06 02:13:26

Many thanks, Arccos, for your welcome response to Atitarev's question.
I was just going to make the comment that the anti-nuclear lobby is by no means necessarily rational about nuclear power when I saw your post. The actual risks involved in launching a nuclear reactor into space may be essentially zero but such an argument, based in logic, would be to no avail against the kind of ignorance and hysteria you referred to.
"Don't spoil Mars with atoms." ... My God! That would be funny if it weren't so sad.

It sums up my fears about the possible effects such groups might have on progress in space exploration. These people can be not only deliberately obtuse or monumentally stupid, they can be extraordinarily loud too! They seem able to summon professional protesters in order to stage noisy and often violent street demonstrations against nuclear anything, and the lack of substance in their position is overlooked because of the loudness of their voices.
Any publicity is good publicity and the anti-nuclear lobby always ensures it gets the media coverage it needs.

But this is getting off topic somewhat and for that I apologise. I didn't intend it to go this far.

atitarev · 2004-02-07 06:29:36

Thank you guys, for answering. On Mars we still have a choice of using solar power to some extent. Further away, on Jupiter's and Saturn's moons the nuclear power could be the only source of power. Maybe it's too early to be scared of protesters, there are no plans yet. I think, the main obstacle in the space exploration at the moment is money and will of governments, not they may become a problem in the future, I agree.

Palomar · 2004-02-17 11:12:20

[=http://www.spaceref.com/news/viewpr.html?pid=13652]Titan is "ideal lab for oceanography and meterology"

"But that's not the same as understanding the underlying physics and being able to predict how things will be different if circumstances change. By giving us a whole new set of parameters, Titan will really open our understanding of how oceans and climates work."

Cassini/Huygens will answer many questions, among them:

Are the winds strong enough to whip up waves that will cut cliffs in the lakesides? Will they form steep beaches, or will the strong tides caused by Saturn's gravity be a bigger effect, forming wide, shallow tidal flats?

How deep are Titan's seas? This question bears on the history of Titan's atmosphere, which is the only other significant nitrogen atmosphere in the solar system, apart from the one you're breathing now.

And do the oceans have the same composition everywhere? Just as there are salty seas and freshwater lakes on Earth, some seas on Titan may be more ethane-rich than others.

*That book by Mr. Ralph Lorenz sounds intriguing...has anyone here read it?

--Cindy

atomoid · 2004-02-21 06:00:37

Are the winds strong enough to whip up waves that will cut cliffs in the lakesides? Will they form steep beaches, or will the strong tides caused by Saturn's gravity be a bigger effect, forming wide, shallow tidal flats?
How deep are Titan's seas? This question bears on the history of Titan's atmosphere, which is the only other significant nitrogen atmosphere in the solar system, apart from the one you're breathing now.
And do the oceans have the same composition everywhere? Just as there are salty seas and freshwater lakes on Earth, some seas on Titan may be more ethane-rich than others.

It fascinating to consider islands and seas and any such differential features on Titan, but I'm wondering how such features would survive more than a few million years before they get eroded by all the methane rain, (if it does exist).

The only thing that keeps Earth from becoming a smooth ball of rock covered in a uniform globe-girdling sea after a few million years of ersion, is plate tectonics continually recreating the moutnains and plateaus and ridges, as well as a few volcanos.

It is doubtful there is tectonic activity on titan and therefore nothing to create such features, so Titan should be a pretty smooth ball, unless there is vulcanism or ice volcanism or ice plates moving around by tidal forces creating raised features. Or perhaps iceberg continents in a shallow sea of methane. I wonder if they track the positions of the light/dark areas to see if they move. I cant wait for the pictures!

Tim · 2004-02-28 09:55:49

NASA's released a new picture :up:

The narrow angle camera onboard the Cassini spacecraft took a series of exposures of Saturn and its rings and moons on February 9, 2004, which were composited to create this stunning, color image. At the time, Cassini was 69.4 million kilometers (43.1 million miles) from Saturn, less than half the distance from Earth to the Sun. The image contrast and colors have been slightly enhanced to aid visibility. The smallest features visible in this image are approximately 540 kilometers across (336 miles).

Fine details in the rings and atmosphere are beginning to emerge, and will grow in sharpness and clarity over the coming months. The optical thickness of Saturn's B (middle) ring and the comparative translucence of the A (outer) ring, when seen against the planet, are now apparent. Subtle color differences in the finely banded Saturnian atmosphere, as well as structure within the diaphanous, inner C ring can be easily seen. Noticeably absent are the ghostly spoke-like dark markings in Saturn's B ring, first discovered by NASA's Voyager spacecraft on approach to the planet 23 years ago.

The icy moon Enceladus (520 kilometers or 323 miles across) is faintly visible on the left in the image. Its brightness has been increased seven times relative to the planet. Cassini will make several very close approaches to Enceladus, returning images in which features as small as 50 meters (165 feet) or less will be detectable.

The composite image signals the start of Cassini's final approach

Yang Liwei Rocket · 2004-03-14 20:22:45

some more information and images from the NASA-EURO space craft heading for Saturn

[http://chandra.harvard.edu/photo/2004/saturn/saturn_comp.jpg]

[http://www.esa.int/export/images/hst_60_l.jpg]

[http://www.oier.org.cn/cassini.gif]

[http://sci2.esa.int/huygens/conference/]http://sci2.esa.int/huygens/conference/

Mark · 2004-03-22 22:22:18

I personally can't wait for the first images of Titan - of what lies behind that thick atmosphere that has been stopping us from seeing what lies beneath.

The funny thing with Titan is, just say we had technology that could get us to Titan(or the entire Saturnian system) in a manner of 6 months or less and we could accomplish manned missions, the biggest set-back on Titan(provided there is a decent amount of solid, stable surface) to stop man from walking around would be the ultra-cool temperature, and atmosphere of course. Pressure, apparently isn't a big issue on Titan and I don't believe gravity is something that would make things impossible for us, it's just the temperature that is the killer, but if some kind of advanced padded space-suit were created, this could possibly be fixed. I guess at one point it could be possible to build bases on that moon too, which could be used to study the entire Saturnian system in fantastic detail.

Anyway, after the Huygens probe(providing it is a success), we'll have a greater picture of what we know of Titan and what we can and can't do for the future.

Julius Caeser · 2004-03-26 17:11:48

Just hope the huygens probe wont be a disaster like Beagle 2 lander.

Palomar · 2004-03-27 07:24:47

[=http://www.space.com/imageoftheday/image_of_day_040326.html]Latest from Cassini-Huygens mission

*This image was released today; the craft is 40.7 million miles from Saturn. With the planet being -this- large from such a distance, imagine being a mere 4 million miles from it. What an incredible sight that must be. (Yes, I know Saturn is BIG...I'm just rambling). There's a "movie" link within the article which apparently shows atmospheric motion taken over a 4-day period; however, I can't get the "movie" to work for me.

--Cindy

Palomar · 2004-03-31 07:19:02

[=http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/RAS_titan_seas_040331.html]Catch a Wave?

*They're speculating with "computer modeling" of wind, etc., that possible waves on Titan might appear to move in slow motion and might be seven times taller than Earth's waves on average. Article says if Huygens lands in a sea, it could float and may be able to transmit for 2 hours.

"He said the computer model is sound, but he allows that the make-up of Titan's surface -- liquid or solid -- involves speculation at this point."

"The probe has instruments that could measure the height and frequency of any waves and the liquid's composition. With sonar, it could measure the sea's depth. Its camera might even return the first pictures of an extraterrestrial sea."

--Cindy

Marineris Sauce · 2004-03-31 09:52:44

Here's another good link for info Cassini related.

[http://ciclops.lpl.arizona.edu/]CICLOPS

Enjoy! :up:

Palomar · 2004-04-02 06:41:36

*Spaceref.com has put up a new web site:

"With the NASA Cassini spacecraft carrying the ESA Huygens Probe about to enter orbit around Saturn on July 1 SpaceRef is pleased to announce the launch of a new web site dedicated to Saturn, Saturn Today. To learn more about Saturn and the exciting Cassini-Huygens mission, visit Saturn Today now."

[http://www.saturntoday.com]Click

--Cindy

No life on Mars · 2004-04-02 07:46:27

Nice link.
I am concern that we will not hear anything from cassini because ESA has made cassini. in a light what happened to Beagle I doubt. But maybe some miracle or something.

SBird · 2004-04-02 11:17:17

Beagle 1 is hardly a representative sample of ESA's work. Beagle 1 was a high risk lander that was shoehorned onto their Mars Express orbiter. Mars Express has worked perfectly. Even the most optimistic people knew that Beagle 1 had a low chance of success.

The ESA is right up there with NASA in the quality of their space probe work. SOHO, XMM-Newton, Rosetta and Hipparcos are all examples of ESA-built satellites that have performed wonderfully.

So far, Cassini has been operating at full capacity. About the only thing that can cause failure now is a malfunction of the main engine for the orbital insertion.

Palomar · 2004-04-02 11:21:17

I am concern that we will not hear anything from cassini because ESA has made cassini.

*Cassini itself was built and managed by JPL, here in the U.S.

[http://saturn.jpl.nasa.gov/overview/index.cfm]Click

However: "Cassini-Huygens is an international collaboration between three space agencies. Seventeen nations contributed to building the spacecraft. --->The Cassini orbiter was built and managed by NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory<---. The Huygens probe was built by the European Space Agency. The Italian Space agency provided Cassini's high-gain communication antenna. More than 200 scientists worldwide will study the data collected."

---

[http://saturn.jpl.nasa.gov/operations/approach.cfm]First "Stop": Phoebe

Slated for June 11.

--Cindy

Julius Caeser · 2004-04-02 12:23:33

Correct me if i'm wrong but methane on Titan seems to be attributed to photochemical origin in the atmosphere!In view of the find of methane on Mars and this seems to be attributed to geologic activity and/or microbial life..does this have new implications as to the origin of Methane on Titan?Any thoughts about this? ???

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#26 2004-02-04 06:47:21

Re: Huygens Probe to Titan

#27 2004-02-04 18:23:26

Re: Huygens Probe to Titan

#28 2004-02-04 22:23:56

Re: Huygens Probe to Titan

#29 2004-02-05 01:36:01

Re: Huygens Probe to Titan

#30 2004-02-05 13:08:08

Re: Huygens Probe to Titan

#31 2004-02-05 17:24:25

Re: Huygens Probe to Titan

#32 2004-02-05 23:14:17

Re: Huygens Probe to Titan

#33 2004-02-06 01:36:33

Re: Huygens Probe to Titan

#34 2004-02-06 01:48:35

Re: Huygens Probe to Titan

#35 2004-02-06 02:13:26

Re: Huygens Probe to Titan

#36 2004-02-07 06:29:36

Re: Huygens Probe to Titan

#37 2004-02-17 11:12:20

Re: Huygens Probe to Titan

#38 2004-02-21 06:00:37

Re: Huygens Probe to Titan

#39 2004-02-28 09:55:49

Re: Huygens Probe to Titan

#40 2004-03-14 20:22:45

Re: Huygens Probe to Titan

#41 2004-03-22 22:22:18

Re: Huygens Probe to Titan

#42 2004-03-26 17:11:48

Re: Huygens Probe to Titan

#43 2004-03-27 07:24:47

Re: Huygens Probe to Titan

#44 2004-03-31 07:19:02

Re: Huygens Probe to Titan

#45 2004-03-31 09:52:44

Re: Huygens Probe to Titan

#46 2004-04-02 06:41:36

Re: Huygens Probe to Titan

#47 2004-04-02 07:46:27

Re: Huygens Probe to Titan

#48 2004-04-02 11:17:17

Re: Huygens Probe to Titan

#49 2004-04-02 11:21:17

Re: Huygens Probe to Titan

#50 2004-04-02 12:23:33

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