Automated highways - is it an idea who's time has come?

Byron · 2004-03-13 17:48:23

After reading and posting in Cindy's thread about the no-winner robot race, I had an idea to start a new thread about an idea I've wondered about from time to time as a practical solution to getting people from point "A" to point "B" as quickly and as safely as possible.

In America, over 40,000 people die each year in car wrecks, with even larger numbers injured, and the lifetime risk of dying from an auto accident is something like 250 to 1...which is alarmingly high, in my opinion Also, traveling around the United States, and Europe as well, has become an endurance fest, due to overcrowded highways, bad drivers, road construction that never seems to end, etc, etc. I honestly do not see how America and other auto-dependent nations can depend on 20th century highway networks for the next 100 years, or for the next 20 for that matter. There have been plenty of times that I've encountered terrible traffic jams far from any major city, due to extreme heavy traffic volume on the interstates.

My solution to this pressing problem is to construct a massive "auto-highway" network, in which cars would essentially drive themselves according to a pre-programmed itinerary. With the proper computer controls and implementation, there's no reason why cars couldn't travel at much higher speeds than currently, at much higher traffic volumes. People could just enter their destination, and let the computer drive for them, which would certainly take a lot of stress out of driving...lol, as well as greatly increasing the load capacity of the highway network.

But the thing is, any kind of auto-highway system would have to be nearly 100% perfect, or it'll never fly with the public. I don't find this to be very logical, as a handful of deaths would be preferable to thousands, but that's how human nature works... ???

What I'm wondering, exactly how practical would it be to actually put a system in place? It'd certainly take a while, probably on the order of 20 years or so, but I do imagine it could be done, given enough political willpower, etc. What do you guys think...could something like this ever be put in place in North America or Europe, or would public opinion scuttle such an idea before it could ever be implemented on a large scale?

It doesn't hurt to dream anyhow...lol...

B

Cobra Commander · 2004-03-13 21:03:08

Absolutely this needs to be dealt with, and being a resident of the "Motor City" it almost heresy for me to say so. There are a number of different approaches one could take, with varying degrees of difficulty. The idea you mention is similar to something that has recently been undergoing very limited trials in California, in which the test vehicles are fitted with a computerized control system and sensors that detect other vehicles and a series of magnetic markers in the lanes. It's got a long way to go, but it's probably a good phase one concept. The footage of five Buicks cruising along bumper to bumper at 70 MPH while the occupants read the newspaper is impressive. Of course I see similar things on the freeway every day... ???

In the long run though, something a bit more involved will be needed, buying a car just to turn it over to computer won't fly, and there will always be that jackass that wants to faster... I'm thinking a series of subways and monorail trains in major population centers and a web of high-speed maglev trains connecting major cities. Automobiles would still make far more sense in rural areas and for police and emergency use, but could be essentially phased out for commuter traffic purposes. Of course I can think of three big companies headquartered locally that would fight mightily to prevent that ever being done. And then there's the unions... Political nightmare, almost makes me want to regress back to fascism. ???

Good lord, Mr. Ford, what have you done?

Palomar · 2004-03-13 22:44:17

After reading and posting in Cindy's thread about the no-winner robot race, I had an idea to start a new thread about an idea I've wondered about from time to time as a practical solution to getting people from point "A" to point "B" as quickly and as safely as possible.

*Interesting that you mention this specific topic, Byron, because on a very closely related note I recall an article linked to the robot race, pertaining to a man trying to perfect a driverless car. I didn't read it; however, you may be interested and it might prove a "sidelight" to this thread.

One thing's for sure, we need more *mass transit*!

--Cindy

Rxke · 2004-03-14 02:36:07

Some simple things could be implemented today, with not much extra cost: a simple 'radar' that makes sure you don't drive too close to each other (like the parking-radars) simple and fool-proof, if you drive faster, minimal distance gets bigger, couple that with you gas pedal et voila, a lot less risks for 'chain-collisions.'
But of course, the 'hot-shot veteran-drivers' would scream bloody murder, babbling about their rights of freedom (to drive dangerously, hey they know what they're doing, yeah sure...)

A lot of drivers are too egoistic or narrow-minded to let a computer do the thinking for them, claiming they know better, and computers can break down and all that hogwash. They forget half of the systems in a modern care are computer-driven... Personally i think the people reading their newspapers, shaving... while driven are broken-down drivers *themselves*, only last week i nearly got run over by such an idiot, that negated a red light, sigh. Irresponsible drivers get off way too easily in most cases. A lot of people die for nothing that way...
But everywhere in the world we think 'my car-my freedom' (subconsiously: 'and #### the rest of the world')

Josh Cryer · 2004-03-14 10:28:12

Two words. Minority Report. Theoretically, individual, computer controlled vehicles, are the most efficient way to travel. Especially with the advent of lightweight materials.

Surprised that Cobra would be advocating, essentially, public transportation, though.

One could have a network of computer controlled cars that are totally self contained. Right now traffic is self contained, no? Yet current traffic can quite be seen as a network; signals are essentially photons, and the individual clients (people driving cars) are able to judge how far away they are from other vehicles, the rate of speed, etc; computers could do this job far more efficiently, having whole swaths of vehicles moving almost like a train which basically consists of unlinked cars.

dicktice · 2004-03-14 10:57:46

Now, there's an idea! You lay rails in the highway, and, and--oh shucks--now we're back to square one: trains again!

Shaun Barrett · 2004-03-15 07:23:53

Arthur C. Clarke went on record years ago saying he never travels by any means of transport in which he can't read a newspaper whilst travelling!
This, of course, is essentially a snub to the concept of owning and driving a motor vehicle and implicit recognition that public transport is the only sensible way to travel.

Personally, I love cars and always have. It's hard for me to contemplate a world in which the freedom of personal car ownership and control no longer exists in its historical sense. Living in Australia, where there are still endless expanses of open road to enjoy, only makes it harder to let go!
But if present trends in traffic congestion continue, and people keep dying in large numbers on our roads, it's very difficult to put forward any kind of sensible argument against the automation of vehicle guidance. And advances in computer technology, of course, have given us the technical ability to achieve that goal whenever we muster the political will to do so.

I have to say, despite my emotional attachment to cars, that I support Byron's suggestion that perhaps the time has come.

[Unlike Josh, I'm not surprised at CC's endorsement of computer-controlled vehicles; I've always found CC to be eminently logical on most subjects.
On the other hand, without wishing to elicit a lecture on politics, what would an anarchist want with a large centrally-controlled computer network keeping tabs on every journey we undertake - knowing when we leave home and where we go? Sounds more like the Soviet-style centralised system we spent a whole Cold War overcoming.]
:;):

Josh Cryer · 2004-03-15 11:30:32

Who said anything about computerized centralization? Or even rails, for that matter? :hm:

Cobra's suggestion that we ought to use subways and monorail trains is, compatable with the whole centralization thing. Nothing I have said has to be.

The only common ground we might have here is perhaps with maglevs, because of their great efficiency, but they would still lack with regards to overall autonomy.

Hmm, and really, I don't even see a central computer system actually working. There'd be all sorts of problems with such a system, most notably, latency and bandwidth congestion (wouldn't it be ironic if we were to implement this system to "reduce congestion" only to have congestion merely change form from physical to digital?).

Cobra Commander · 2004-03-15 16:18:41

Surprised that Cobra would be advocating, essentially, public transportation, though.

Ah, but I'm advocating options with the intent that if a public system were available it would be used by a majority of people in highly populated areas. If someone wants to own a car in New York City for example, fine. But if a safe, clean, cheap and reliable alternative was present how many would choose not to? The NY subway stands as a prime example, though it only meets two of the prior requirements, maybe three on a good day. Even those that had cars would find themselves using them less, if I could take a Maglev from Detroit to Chicago this upcoming Mars Society conference would be more relaxing, for one. To me, the best social engineering is to just give people options and let them choose the one that makes the most sense for their surroundings. City folk will avoid the expense and hassle of a car while big pickups will still be common in rural areas. There'd be a few holdouts, but the problem would essentially be solved in a few years.

Personally, I love cars and always have. It's hard for me to contemplate a world in which the freedom of personal car ownership and control no longer exists in its historical sense. Living in Australia, where there are still endless expanses of open road to enjoy, only makes it harder to let go!

I know what you mean, Shaun. I have this dual perception, on the one hand is the farming areas where I've needed to drive to get anywhere (even the mailbox in poor weather!), and on the other is the "freedom" I experience in traffic jams on almost a daily basis. A pragmatic approach that recognizes the differences seems to be the only real option we've got. Besides, I've always wanted to visit Australia and don't much like that driving on the wrong, er left side of the road.

Hmm, and really, I don't even see a central computer system actually working. There'd be all sorts of problems with such a system, most notably, latency and bandwidth congestion (wouldn't it be ironic if we were to implement this system to "reduce congestion" only to have congestion merely change form from physical to digital?).

That could well be a problem. A decentralized system would likely work better, though people would have to get used to it. In my experience people get very nervous with the concept of simple sets of instructions in decentralized systems when lives are at stake, despite the data showing that it is workable. For example there was recently a study involving something vaguely similar to the "Minority Report" concept, all done with computer models. I'll have to look it up agains sometime, but it consistently showed that a decentralized system of independent pods worked more efficiently than a centralized network.

But this really is only practical in large cities. Those vast expanses between them is where the maglevs come in.

Josh Cryer · 2004-03-15 20:21:12

One neat idea I think for long distance travel utilizing maglevs, is to basically make them work like ferries; you drive your car up onto a specialized platform, and load it on, probably no more difficult than driving a car into a carwash (heck, the whole process could even be automated). Then the maglev carries you and your car to where ever your destination is to be. This then makes the maglev cars themselves just extensions of your own vehicle; basically platforms which allow your vehicle to levitate on the maglev tracks.

Imagine an open air platform (much like tractor trailer rigs reside on, though much cooler; graples hold your vehicle) with a transparent corridor going down the sides of it so that one may exit their vehicles and go to a dining hall or whatever (the transparency can be turned off for the squemish of course).

Public transportation is unbeatable, though, in big cities where many millions of people live within a few square miles, but you're going to have that regardless. It starts with elevators, and ends up with subways, really. I'm just thinking that autonomous transportation can still exist without making things worse. Especially with the advent of extremely strong and lightweight composites (ie, whole cars weighing mere pounds).

Mars_B4_Moon · 2024-06-05 15:25:20

a discussion from 20 years ago, perhaps an old topic worth bumping

Bring on driverless cars — AI will be safer than humans
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/brin … -nthlps8ks

AI trained to control traffic
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6gLHDCLT2Gc

NASA’s first lunar railway to use levitating robots with no moving parts
https://interestingengineering.com/inno … ar-railway

a more recent discussion

humans
http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=10529

Last edited by Mars_B4_Moon (2024-06-05 15:25:40)

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#1 2004-03-13 17:48:23

Re: Automated highways - is it an idea who's time has come?

#2 2004-03-13 21:03:08

Re: Automated highways - is it an idea who's time has come?

#3 2004-03-13 22:44:17

Re: Automated highways - is it an idea who's time has come?

#4 2004-03-14 02:36:07

Re: Automated highways - is it an idea who's time has come?

#5 2004-03-14 10:28:12

Re: Automated highways - is it an idea who's time has come?

#6 2004-03-14 10:57:46

Re: Automated highways - is it an idea who's time has come?

#7 2004-03-15 07:23:53

Re: Automated highways - is it an idea who's time has come?

#8 2004-03-15 11:30:32

Re: Automated highways - is it an idea who's time has come?

#9 2004-03-15 16:18:41

Re: Automated highways - is it an idea who's time has come?

#10 2004-03-15 20:21:12

Re: Automated highways - is it an idea who's time has come?

#11 2024-06-05 15:25:20

Re: Automated highways - is it an idea who's time has come?

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