U.S. Culture - ...where's it going?

C M Edwards · 2005-06-16 08:00:48

Hmm...

I was going to sing a long song about the value of forgiveness as a social strategy.

However, if you'll forgive me :;): , I think Fledi's point has more potential for discussion:

... changes only really happen when a large enough percentage of the population begin to suffer because of a worsening situation. Then the problems become more and more visible, with beggars on the streets etc..

True. It's also true that those reactions aren't necessarily positive or proportional. Or rational.

Perhaps we should try an experiment. Everybody look around, as you go about your day, and see if there are any examples of how you, personally, are suffering because of a "worsening situation" in US Culture. Are you, personally, being harmed or hampered in any way at all by a recent cultural phenomenon? Are your troubles occuring on a daily basis, or was there one big overarching moment where some newly oppressive cultural phenomenon crushed you and stood on you ever since? How many beggars do you know, and have you met any new ones lately? Is some change costing you money? Costing you your livelihood? Are you posting from prison?

The US is a big country. The law of averages alone says that if you search far enough afield, you'll find some random thing or other gone wrong. Can you give examples of what's going wrong in the USA today without scouring the whole country?

clark · 2005-06-16 08:11:22

I gave a dollar on the train today to a homeless man asking for donations for a local shelter to buy soup, milk, etc.

It's more routine on the subway.

Usually get asked by homeless people for money when I'm walking around.

A lot of people I know are personaly affected by the Amtrak problems. It affects long distant commuters as well as local ones as other forms of transportation are over taxed.

Lots of smokers feel persecuted.

Palomar · 2005-06-21 08:04:51

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20050621/ap_ … lings]Jury "split"

*Have been watching this. Too bad there aren't more blacks on the jury. Apparently yesterday Mr. Killen (is that a coincidentally appropriate last name?) was smiling at the news a verdict hadn't been reached. Some big-shot sticking up for Mr. Killen referred to to the KKK as a "peaceful organization." Yeah, that's why civil rights workers attempting to register black voters were murdered and why black church-goers were attacked and beaten as they worshipped, and their church set afire.

I think they should wheel Mr. Killen right into the middle of Harlem.

--Cindy

Cobra Commander · 2005-06-21 11:01:39

*Have been watching this. Too bad there aren't more blacks on the jury. Apparently yesterday Mr. Killen (is that a coincidentally appropriate last name?) was smiling at the news a verdict hadn't been reached.

Guilty on three counts of manslaughter.

Palomar · 2005-06-27 12:01:51

*It seems some Americans in the space industry might have a big old Guilt Trip going on? A certain current mission (owned by NASA) with a target date coinciding with a national holiday was discussed in a recent article. All of the distance comparisons were made using European cities in the examples.

Copenhagen, Athens, Stockholm, Madrid...

I don't mind general inclusiveness, but the article seems -- IMO -- entirely indicative of some sort of guilt complex.

But maybe it's an attempt to warm the Europeans up to the project, if they've been giving it the could shoulder due to certain associations (like the target date).

When does the desire to be inclusive (if that's what's going on) become some sort of emotionally-based appeasement?

::shrugs::

--Cindy

reddragon · 2005-06-27 12:24:30

Maybe there's something to it, but I don't pay too much attention to things like which city names were used. There are lots of better examples of discrimination and noninculusiveness. I tend to think that people primarily use distance comparisons that they're familiar with. Perhaps the author of this paper was European or frequently traveled to Euroope.

Too bad there aren't more blacks on the jury.

Ideally Americans on juries would just do their best to determine the truth, without using racial prejudices. Actually the guilty verdict, in a case where guilt seemed fairly certain from the beginning, may indicate that they ultimately did just that. Just being optimistic.

Palomar · 2005-07-02 09:29:21

Dont]http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20050628/lf_nm/life_etiquette_dc_2]Don't lick the knife...

*Might cost you $30 million.

IMO a return to a -modest- and "user-friendly" level of etiquette in society overall is desirable.

--Cindy

srmeaney · 2005-07-21 19:36:03

Does it matter where US culture is going? Its only a problem when people stop being a part of it. Culture works based on a Contribution from Every citizen. Culture is the Work of a Collective...You Closet Commies!

reddragon · 2005-07-22 09:09:10

Does it matter where US culture is going? Its only a problem when people stop being a part of it. Culture works based on a Contribution from Every citizen. Culture is the Work of a Collective

Interesting ideas. Certainly Earth has seen many cultures that have worked fine for the people who are a part of them and are used to them, but have seemed strange and often wrong to outsiders. One could, however, say that the problem you suggest (people stop being a part of it) is happening now in America. Our culture, unlike most historically, is changing very rapidly. And there are many different opinions on how, or whether, it ought to be changing.

srmeaney · 2005-07-22 15:13:02

It is unfortunate. While participation is culture, Change in culture doesnt just come from participation, it comes from a departure in participation.

A departure from participation is the fragmentation of everything that matters. All right lets talk about the way film influences culture. During the 80's and 90's there were many US films that reflected diverse thoughts of many points of view and could be said to be creative and good... in the last five years there have been two films that stood out as good movies -The Village (a strong story, easily understood, very questioning of where we are now), and (a lot of people wont agree with me on this) Team America World Police (the funniest and most enjoyable film ever - I laughed all the way through it).

Cobra Commander · 2005-08-10 12:17:03

in the last five years there have been two films that stood out as good movies -The Village (a strong story, easily understood, very questioning of where we are now), and (a lot of people wont agree with me on this) Team America World Police (the funniest and most enjoyable film ever - I laughed all the way through it).

"The Village" was predictable and contrived but yes, "Team America" was hilarious, albeit rather juvenile.

Back to the point, at its most basic level the problem in current American culture isn't so much that we're splintering or that we're essentially selfish materialistic people, but that on a very real sense we don't care about anyone or anything. Culturally we're nihilists on some level.

Further, it would seem that our "compassionate" welfare apparatus is in part responsible for that just as much as our unbridled consumerism.

We have a portion of "ours" taken from us for the stated purpose of providing for the poor, so we've already been compelled to do our part. It's taken care of. Oooh, plasma screen.

Don't worry, I'm not going into a Right-wing rant about social programs.

We're conditioned to believe that the unfortunates in our society are cared for by the "safety net" we pay vast sums into even while more is demanded to solve the problem, breeding indifference and contempt at the same time. We're bombarded with the message that this new product is essential to our happiness. We are effectively (and some might say deliberately) denied knowledge of our own collective history and culture. We have no cohesive narrative, we have no history but the bastardized and intentionally divisive version spoon-fed to us in educational institutions which indoctrinate as much as they educate.

Still here? Okay. I assure you I'm not just being paranoid. Not sure exactly where I'm going with this yet, but we'll see.

We're too focused on ourselves, too focused on now and too centralized. What we feed back into the younger members of our population only increases the tendency toward these things creating a population that in general grows more selfish, self-righteous and ignorant with each new generation.

Yes, there are exceptions, I'm speaking generally.

While culture can't be "created" through politics, it can be molded by politics. Unfortunately it's not just a matter of smashing socialist government programs. The problem isn't just government centralization but centralization generally. Large centralized corporations are just as damaging to both the social and economic welfare of a people as large centralized governments are.

Which was all well and good in colonial times but how can any of this apply now? Modern industry requires centralization, both in manufacturing and in regulation doesn't it? Sure, but we're also approaching a point where that could all change. We're rapidly approaching getting to where individuals will be able to make whatever goods they want with some modestly priced equipment. This doesn't even require nano machine uber-tech but simple industrial "fabbers" of the type that are already in use for prototyping. Manufactured goods could be made anywhere to exact custom specifications with technology that is on the near-term horizon. Entertainment can already be produced and distributed by artists themselves without the need for big corporate entities and it will only become more widespread. Farming has been practical on a small scale since the earliest glimmers of human civilization.

In short, we seem to be approaching a level of technological development where we won't need these big centralized entities anymore. Aside from the basic functions of government (maintaining social order, protecting property rights, etc.) none of the rest matters. If we start paving the way now we may well be able to return to a more self-reliant and historically and socially aware mentality similar to that of this nation's founders, only for everyone. All the comforts in less time with less effort. Plenty of time for more intellectual pursuits for those so inclined. Not a utopia by any stretch, afterall someone still has to kill the cattle, ship the meat and take out the garbage, but a world with more leisure time and more freedom than currently.

Or, we can botch it and end up worse off. We're either on the edge of turning it all around or screwing it up horribly. In which case at least we'll be able to fab our firearms.

Sadly, the state of US culture today looks to be fostering the latter outcome.

But some of us aren't out of the fight yet, going off on some damn fool idealistic crusade like our forefathers did.

BWhite · 2005-08-10 12:33:23

While culture can't be "created" through politics, it can be molded by politics. Unfortunately it's not just a matter of smashing socialist government programs. The problem isn't just government centralization but centralization generally. Large centralized corporations are just as damaging to both the social and economic welfare of a people as large centralized governments are.
Which was all well and good in colonial times but how can any of this apply now? Modern industry requires centralization, both in manufacturing and in regulation doesn't it? Sure, but we're also approaching a point where that could all change. We're rapidly approaching getting to where individuals will be able to make whatever goods they want with some modestly priced equipment. This doesn't even require nano machine uber-tech but simple industrial "fabbers" of the type that are already in use for prototyping. Manufactured goods could be made anywhere to exact custom specifications with technology that is on the near-term horizon. Entertainment can already be produced and distributed by artists themselves without the need for big corporate entities and it will only become more widespread. Farming has been practical on a small scale since the earliest glimmers of human civilization.
In short, we seem to be approaching a level of technological development where we won't need these big centralized entities anymore. Aside from the basic functions of government (maintaining social order, protecting property rights, etc.) none of the rest matters. If we start paving the way now we may well be able to return to a more self-reliant and historically and socially aware mentality similar to that of this nation's founders, only for everyone. All the comforts in less time with less effort. Plenty of time for more intellectual pursuits for those so inclined. Not a utopia by any stretch, afterall someone still has to kill the cattle, ship the meat and take out the garbage, but a world with more leisure time and more freedom than currently.

I totally agree with large swathes of this.

I also believe the Libertarian Left will embrace this more readily than the wealthy Right since the (relative) demise of large corporations will "gore their ox" far more severely by making the concentration of wealth more difficult.

Palomar · 2005-08-10 12:41:22

*This thread's come up again, huh? Last week on TV news (can't recall which channel) they broadcast information about a very dangerous and aggressive El Salvadoran gang which has infiltrated the U.S. and is active in, IIRC, 48 States. They are involved in gambling rings, drug smuggling, etc. Their name is something like "M30" but I don't remember the exact name. As quickly as they can be caught and deported they're back. A woman from Virginia was shown speaking at a town hall meeting; she was frightened, as were her neighbors. She said she hadn't been aware of the high levels of gang activity in that area (her family had recently moved there), including "hearing reports of people having their fingers hacked off." I mean she was -scared-. In El Salvadore that gang accounts for 50% of all murders.

It's not because they're El Salvadoran; if they were any other ethnic group or nationality I'd be just as worried. ::shakes head:: America is becoming unbelievably violent.

the problem in current American culture isn't so much that we're splintering or that we're essentially selfish materialistic people, but that on a very real sense we don't care about anyone or anything.

Sorry, but that -does- sound like we're selfish and materialistic. There are many people and things I do care deeply about; the sentiment is seldom returned. I think America's biggest problem is an attitude of ingratitude for the good standard of living and opportunities we have. Most folks who are well-off are too good for their "inferiors"...many minimum-wage workers are "too good" for that job (though many of them don't seek to better themselves). The nation is so overloaded with hype and image and spin...how many people are actually stopping to think for a moment? Go into a grocery store: Radio broadcasts or music. Go into a multimedia store: TVs blaring, advertisements playing. Etc., etc.

One of the most problematic of American attitudes, IMO, is this constant you DESERVE it b.s. Sure, companies/corporations are pitching that attitude so you'll buy from them. But it's getting drilled into the heads of generations growing up. I'm from the old school of thought when it comes to it, though: No one "deserves" anything unless they're willing to work for it. Period.

IMO, another problematic attitude is overwhelming levels of derision and this assinine attitude that "if we make fun of it or laugh it off, it [problems, conflicts, serious issues which must be addressed by someone] will go away."

There is still a lot of good in America. I wonder if we'll hang ourselves if given enough rope, though? Or will we still manage to coast along somehow and avoid disaster? America has changed a lot since I've been around; it's almost like having lived in 3 different nations. Can't help also wondering what the next 20 years will bring...

--Cindy

::EDIT:: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/jackson_juro … JVRPUCUl]I agree with Jackson's lawyer; they're probably seeking fame and fortune. Why didn't they voice their concerns and doubts in the deliberations room, to their peers? They're inadvertently admitting they were cowards (who are brave enough, though, to tell the world in front of cameras). Sure.

Cobra Commander · 2005-08-10 13:00:57

I also believe the Libertarian Left will embrace this more readily than the wealthy Right since the (relative) demise of large corporations will "gore their ox" far more severely by making the concentration of wealth more difficult.

Both Left and Right will have issues with it since it skewers sacred cows on both sides, but so be it.

If it works out this way, we'll transcend the present Left and Right. Both will be reduced to irrelevance. I'll be having a goat roast, even the New Mars Lefties are invited.

America has changed a lot since I've been around; it's almost like having lived in 3 different nations. Can't help also wondering what the next 20 years will bring...

While I certainly have down days, for the most part I'm optimistic about it. If I have my way about it (I most certainly intend to ) I'll go so far as to say this country's best days may well be ahead.

Now's the time to start thinking seriously about what kind of future we want and how to achieve it.

Palomar · 2005-08-10 13:15:21

*Am thinking about the "doubtful" Jackson jurors (above post, in my "Edit"). It troubles me that so many people nowadays are willing to jump on the publicity bandwagon (or try to) for their own personal gain and to the detriment of all else.

I can't help thinking of an anecdote regarding John D. Rockfeller and the stock market crash of 1929. It's supposedly true:

In October 1929, John D. Rockefeller decided it was time to liquidate his Wall Street holdings, when he was given a share tip by his shoe-shine boy. ...

Isn't this, at a moral level, where America is today? If anyone and everyone can, like the shoe-shine boy, get into the stock market (or, in our current case, in front of a camera for even the most spurious of "reasons" for purely personal advantage)...

--Cindy

Grypd · 2005-08-10 13:19:38

*Sorry, but that -does- sound like we're selfish and materialistic. There are many people and things I do care deeply about; the sentiment is seldom returned. I think America's biggest problem is an attitude of ingratitude for the good standard of living and opportunities we have. Most folks who are well-off are too good for their "inferiors"...many minimum-wage workers are "too good" for that job (though many of them don't seek to better themselves). The nation is so overloaded with hype and image and spin...how many people are actually stopping to think for a moment? Go into a grocery store: Radio broadcasts or music. Go into a multimedia store: TVs blaring, advertisements playing. Etc., etc.

I wish this was just a lot of problems the USA has. But its not. In the UK we have a welfare state but what this basically means is we have a large percentage of the population who rather than working would rather recieve there Welfare checks and moan how little they are. It is not as if there is not work for them to do. We have in the UK a situation where there is a serious skill and job shortage. We have more jobs than people to fill them. If you read the changing face of Europe post and our little stint into EU politics you will see that the Uk has had a lot of people move to work in the UK from the new EU states in the east.

Well you would expect that this would bring a bout of racist behaviour.

Actually we are seeing these people from Europe appearing and taking jobs that could not be filled and pay there way. They have increased the Scottish economy by a whole 1% in the year they have been here. They are working as nurses, Bricklayers,plumbers all posts we are short in and are putting money into the UK economy.

What this tells me and a lot of people who work and pay there way is that a rather large minority of the UK are just wastes of space. They dont work they demand increased dole cheques. They are the source of a lot of the countries crime, frankly we could do extremely well without them. And the worst point is that these leeches on society expect the state to give them all that they need from money to housing and those who work are expected to pay for it all with ever increasing taxes.

C M Edwards · 2005-08-10 14:04:11

If it works out this way, we'll transcend the present Left and Right. Both will be reduced to irrelevance. I'll be having a goat roast, even the New Mars Lefties are invited.

I agree with 8.5 of the Green Party's "Ten Key Values", so I could get on board with the whole decentralization thing. Save me a haunch.

I'd need to have someone to blame, though...

srmeaney · 2005-08-10 19:42:46

Culture is Music. If you dont understand the Music, then you're loosing touch.
Buy a radio and listen to something you have never listened to before.

Culture is food. Has anyone in this forum ever eaten Halva? Do you even know what Halva is? You have twenty four hours to track down Halva and try some.

Culture is participation. What did you do that contributed to the cultural base of your civilization? Put your hand against the window glass, and spraypaint over it.

This is all you will contribue today.

Palomar · 2005-08-17 08:21:10

How do you confront someone like THIS?

*I've been keeping tabs on this and did see video clips of Rader's testimony as to how he stalked and killed the victims. He seemed uncomfortable while recounting his murderous deeds. Does that imply remorse? He said he wanted to get the recounting over as quickly as possible, to spare listeners. His crimes are terrible enough (killing adults in front of their children AND killing children), and then for years (when not silent) he'd tease and taunt the police.

::shakes head::

Not sure I could be in the same room with him, much less address him, if I were the loved one of a victim. Hope I'm never put to that sort of test...

--Cindy

srmeaney · 2005-08-18 20:55:11

About average: http://www.crimelibrary.com/serial_kill … oat_1.html
The Rostov Ripper.

Heres a question: Would it be any easier to sit in a room with six police officers knowing that they had shot dead a man innocent of all crime, as he boarded a subway train and the leaked video camera and government reports showed that everything that had been said was a lie to protect the jobs of Government employees?

clark · 2005-08-18 20:59:02

Would they have guns?

srmeaney · 2005-08-18 22:18:57

Would they have guns?

Only if you look un-afraid. Do you look un-afraid?

PS Have you tried Halva Yet?

Palomar · 2005-08-23 05:13:29

Pat Robertson spouting off again

*That guy really has a Wannabe King complex.

"Religions should stay out of politics...or be taxed."

Yeah, that's all we need in addition to everything else...another war. Robertson really wants the U.S. to be World Police. Why does the media even pay any attention to him? It only flatters and emboldens him.

--Cindy

P.S.: The Venezuelan Catholic Archbishop recently stated Chavez is "possessed by the Devil" and "needs an exorcism." LOL!

srmeaney · 2005-08-23 05:27:44

Pat Robertson spouting off again
*That guy really has a Wannabe King complex.

You know how it is: I rule by God and My Right.

C M Edwards · 2005-08-23 07:27:52

Pat Robertson spouting off again
*That guy really has a Wannabe King complex.

He's probably setting himself up for another run at the presidency. What do you think... 10% of the propular vote in 2008?

P.S.: The Venezuelan Catholic Archbishop recently stated Chavez is "possessed by the Devil" and "needs an exorcism." LOL!

If Pat Robertson's any indication, we could use some of those Venezuelan Archbishops here in the States!

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