Favorite Sci-Fi Movie? - Blade Runner for me. . .

clark · 2003-05-23 16:51:48

2 and a half hours to find out that the Matrix is a 'reality', which encompases both Zion and the outside and the people in the computer program, and Neo is a computer program with a soul. ??? :laugh:

It's all a game and we choose our reality, now we just have to understnd why we chose.

And the dance scene wasn't a sex fest- it's what you see at a rave. The sex scenes with Neo and Trinity were interspered.

Interesting if heavy handed film

Josh Cryer · 2003-05-23 18:57:53

clark, heh, watch more closely next time, eh? There were plenty of breasts and body movements, they were just vague (completely bare breasts only showed up ocassionally, for instance).

Neo being a computer program ?with a soul [conscious?]? is an interesting take, but I think that's been done before, and I'd hate to see it done again. I wouldn't mind it turning out that Neo is actually a human/program hybrid, that is, he's human, but what makes him so powerful is that part of him is actually a program (his ablity to ?come back? so many times is due to the fact that it only takes time for the rouge program to merge with someone who is completely compatable). Perhaps that's what you meant, though, and with that, I would maybe agree. The Architect pretty much puts him in a different category than humans and machines, if I recall.

Also, there's the wildcard theory, that makes Neo a person with supernatural ablities. His ablity to stop the machines at the end was, well, a physical manifestation of the human pshcye, or whatever. I don't like this theory that much.

Palomar · 2003-05-24 07:47:26

And the dance scene wasn't a sex fest- it's what you see at a rave. The sex scenes with Neo and Trinity were interspered.

*Erm...what do you suppose the dance was leading up to and what would follow, Clark? Snacking on orange sherbet and sugar cookies while watching Uncle Jim's Tahiti vacation slides??

It was prelude to an orgy.

--Cindy

Palomar · 2003-05-24 08:27:05

2 and a half hours to find out that the Matrix is a 'reality', which encompases both Zion and the outside and the people in the computer program, and Neo is a computer program with a soul. ??? :laugh:
It's all a game and we choose our reality, now we just have to understnd why we chose.

*Are you sure?

I'm quite sure the story's premise is:

1. 'The Matrix' is a -virtual- reality world, created for the human minds whose bodies are enslaved (encapsulated) so that the machines can subsist/feed off of the enery the human bodies produce.

2. Zion is reality. The machines controlling and manipulating everything but Zion and the humans who have awoken and escaped their capsules (refer to first movie) are reality.

3. Neo is human, -not- a computer program. Whatever he's evolving into is another issue, but he began as a human being (refer again to the first movie, wherein he burst out of and escaped from the capsule).

4. The only "games" are -within- 'The Matrix.' Outside of it, humans must defeat the machines and free their own kind or face annihilation of those awakened and the continued enslavement of those unawakened. Also, humans may eventually all be slaughtered by the machines, when they are not needed anymore. As for choices, yes -- what choices Neo and other awakened humans make within and without 'The Matrix' can and will impact on the course of their history.

What have you been sprinkling on your popcorn, Clarkie?

--Cindy

clark · 2003-05-24 09:13:08

Neo being a computer program ?with a soul [conscious?]? is an interesting take, but I think that's been done before, and I'd hate to see it done again.

Josh, refrence the dialogue with the Architect.

Also, there's the wildcard theory, that makes Neo a person with supernatural ablities.

No, Neo represents the 'anamoloy'. It is the .1 percent of humanity that cannot be fooled by the Matrix, and which is never satisfied with the realities presented to it.

Refrence the conversatioon with the Architect.

It was prelude to an orgy.

Perhaps it was, but the dancing was also a last celebration of life- remember, Zion is to fall the next day.

1. 'The Matrix' is a -virtual- reality world, created for the human minds whose bodies are enslaved (encapsulated) so that the machines can subsist/feed off of the enery the human bodies produce.

The matrix is choice. Both Zion and computer world are generated in tvirtual computer. Refrence the conversation with the Architect. They destroyed Zion 5 other times.

2. Zion is reality. The machines controlling and manipulating everything but Zion and the humans who have awoken and escaped their capsules (refer to first movie) are reality.

Zion is another version of reality tied in with the computer generated version, but both exsist inside a virtual reality. They wake up to another reality.

4. The only "games" are -within- 'The Matrix.'

No, it is all a game designed to make us happy and meet our personal coice of what we want rity to be.

I'll continue ;atebut please, if you have the means, watch the scene with the Architect a bit closer, it tells you everything

Palomar · 2003-05-24 10:15:41

Clark: "Zion is another version of reality tied in with the computer generated version, but both exsist inside a virtual reality. They wake up to another reality."

*I guess we'll (hopefully) find out for certain with the 3rd movie, due to open late this year. Let's keep in mind that the writers of the story could be compromising the original premise of the story in their clumsy attempts to keep the cash registers ringing. There were so many silly distractions in the 2nd movie that I can't help questioning the integrity of the writers. Perhaps they've gone from a really terrific idea to "selling out" in order to keep the profits rolling in. Maybe they were so enthuastic about the tremendous success of the first film that they've started tripping over their own 2 feet. The 1st film's plot was tightly written; the 2nd is scattered and filled with drivel. When the first movie came out there was much discussion in an organization I belonged to at the time about the 1st movie being comparable to the awakening of human consciousness in the individual as differentiated from (Gurdjieff's) "sleeping masses." That's another discussion (which I haven't the time to get into right now).

Quote
4. The only "games" are -within- 'The Matrix.'

Clark: "No, it is all a game designed to make us happy and meet our personal coice of what we want rity to be."

*I'm not so sure; refer again to my response above.

Clark: "I'll continue ;atebut please, if you have the means, watch the scene with the Architect a bit closer, it tells you everything."

*You trust him? Could it be he's trying to manipulate Neo -- lying or telling half-truths or simply trying to discourage him, so that he and the others in Zion will believe it's all simply part of 'The Matrix,' and they'll give up the resistance and go back to sleep? I'd lay a bet on it.

--Cindy

dickbill · 2003-05-24 10:38:53

Hi all,
I havn't seen the movie yet. But I am curious to know if they mention which OS run the matrix in the movie.
I would guess the matrix is just Windows Xp server 2100.

Then, as any OS, it has to crash because of bugs, virus or spam email, or just memory filled over the top, whatever. Maybe Neo is just a bug, a program who is looping forever and that the matrix agents try to end, but the program is not responding, CTRL ALT DEL< CTRL ALT DEL !

Bill White · 2003-05-24 10:42:03

I have only seen the first movie yet reading this dialouge suggests an idea to me.

Neo was not satisified with the original Matrix - he chose which pill? And he "escaped" into reality, right?

What if Zion, the human ships, Trinity and everything else we see in the first movie was merely a meta-Matrix created by the machines to identify and train that rare and exceptional human unsatisified with the first level Matrix?

Perhaps in third movie Neo will learn to escape from the Zion-matrix into an even "higher level Matrix" and we will learn there are cascades of Matrix-es stacked like those Russian dolls. Each person can escape to the highest level Matrix they are capable of handling but there is no highest (lowest?) level.

There is no spoon and there is no ultimate or final reality to escape into - - rather its all an infinte regress of stacked Matrix.

Palomar · 2003-05-24 11:00:41

There is no spoon and there is no ultimate or final reality to escape into - - rather its all an infinte regress of stacked Matrix.

*Interesting idea, Bill.

But, to my mind anyway, we come back to -the- question: From whence did The Matrix originate (if not from computers, which originated from humans)?

Which came first, the chicken or the egg? Who created God?

My opinion of the original movie's premise is as per my 2 previous posts today.

--Cindy

clark · 2003-05-24 11:22:42

*I guess we'll (hopefully) find out for certain with the 3rd movie, due to open late this year.

But we don't need to though.

Fact, Agent Smith transfers his essence out of the computer generated world into the 'real' world of Zion... a computer program able to take over a 'physical' body? Dosen't make sense and isn't accounted for in the movie. This WILL be explained in the next movie, but the answers are in this one.

Fact, the Oracle is a computer program as well. She is 'mother' to the matrix as the Archietect is 'father'. The first Matrix was a work of art in creation as much as it was in failure- this is a refrence to the first movie where they talked about how the Matrix failed because it made everyone to happy- people need a certain amount of dissatisfaction to be happy- to purpose. I believe Agent Smith explains this in the first movie.

Fact, at the end of the movie Neo says things feel different- he then stops the machines with a wave of his hand... it is the realization that Zion reality is fake- it is ANOTHER level of control.

Fact, there are other 'Ones' or other 'potentials'. They are imbued with the same 'anamoly'. I think in the third film we will discover that the One, ie Neo, is the reason for the world- he is the cause. The Architect said as much anyway.

I might also add that a certain birdy has informed me, quite rightly in my opinion, that the 'Matrix' is actually represenative of Language in our world...

*You trust him? Could it be he's trying to manipulate Neo -- lying or telling half-truths or simply trying to discourage him, so that he and the others in Zion will believe it's all simply part of 'The Matrix,' and they'll give up the resistance and go back to sleep? I'd lay a bet on it.

Ah, but that falls into the trap! You see, each reality is a means to control by trying to make you 'believe' that it is real...

There is no spoon and there is no ultimate or final reality to escape into - - rather its all an infinte regress of stacked Matrix.

Yes.

Sorry, I'm right. But I suppose time will tell... in November.

Bill White · 2003-05-24 11:42:11

Fact, Agent Smith transfers his essence out of the computer generated world into the 'real' world of Zion... a computer program able to take over a 'physical' body? Dosen't make sense and isn't accounted for in the movie. This WILL be explained in the next movie, but the answers are in this one.

and

I might also add that a certain birdy has informed me, quite rightly in my opinion, that the 'Matrix' is actually represenative of Language in our world...

Heh!

Memes and genes - genes and memes. We "B" genes but memes "R" us. Language is merely a meme proliferation device. And memes were "created" by genes to out-compete other genes.

Richard Dawkins asks whether "we" can ever escape the tyranny of the selfish replicators. But wait, who/what are "we" anyway? Perhaps just the ephemera of those same selfish replicators.

- - Unless - - there is an "essentialist" self - an essence - that can be downloaded.

Some say the Matrix movies are Gnostic in origin. Why does Agent Smith even have an "essence" anyway?

Here is an essay - despite all the fancy computer tech stuff, the W brothers seem to have gotten much of their inspiration from 1800 year old religious texts

Maybe Agent Smith and the machines ain't so evil after all - perhaps all those humans trapped in the Matrix never were free to begin with and pre-Matrix primordial freedom is merely myth and an illusion.

clark · 2003-05-24 11:54:30

Language is merely a meme proliferation device. And memes were "created" by genes to out-compete other genes.

In the context of the movie, language is similar to the matrix in that language defines our reality. It is the super structure that allows us access to a shared reality, yet in the process, it destroys or limits our individual access to realiy.

the W brothers stole alot of philosphical theories- one of the professors is in the movie.
I actually thought that was part of the failing of this movie, the concepts and dialogue exceeded the situation and the characters.

Fing for humanity and their own lives while contemplating Higel and the meaning of 'choice' is just a bit much for me

Bill White · 2003-05-24 12:06:48

I actually thought that was part of the failing of this movie, the concepts and dialogue exceeded the situation and the characters.

That comes from trying to be too many things to too many people *and* still sell enough tickets.

Quite a challenge to avoid such obstacles, no?

Bill White · 2003-05-24 12:13:22

the W brothers stole alot of philosphical theories

I will answer using my wife's favorite mode of argument,

True, BUT!

Okay, clark, this is true, but the essay I cite above argues:

Although as a "modern myth" the film purposefully draws on numerous traditions, we propose that an examination of Gnostic Christianity and Buddhism well illuminates the overarching paradigm of The Matrix, namely, the problem of sleeping in ignorance in a dreamworld, solved by waking to knowledge or enlightenment. By drawing syncretistically on these two ancient traditions and fusing them with a technological vision of the future, the film constructs a new teaching that challenges its audience to question "reality."

and this I really like. . .

In fact, Neo's given name is not only Mr. Anderson / the Son of Man, it is Thomas Anderson, which reverberates with the most famous Gnostic gospel, the Gospel of Thomas. Also, before he is actualized as Neo (the one who will initiate something "New," since he is indeed the "One"), he is doubting Thomas, who does not believe in his role as the redeemer figure. In fact, the name Thomas means "the Twin," and in ancient Christian legend he is Jesus' twin brother. In a sense, the role played by Keanu Reeves has a twin character, since he is constructed as both a doubting Thomas and as a Gnostic Christ figure.

Do you believe Thomas Anderson was named by random happenstance?

And, this from a footnote to this same essay.

In an online chat with viewers of the DVD, the Wachowskis acknowledged that the Buddhist references in the film are purposeful. However, when asked "Have you ever been told that the Matrix has Gnostic overtones?", they gave a tantalizingly ambiguous reply: "Do you consider that to be a good thing?"

Palomar · 2003-05-24 12:13:33

*I guess we'll (hopefully) find out for certain with the 3rd movie, due to open late this year.
But we don't need to though.
Fact, Agent Smith transfers his essence out of the computer generated world into the 'real' world of Zion... a computer program able to take over a 'physical' body? Dosen't make sense and isn't accounted for in the movie.

*Please refresh my memory. I honestly don't recall Agent Smith being physically in Zion. ? What scene was that?

I only recall Agent Smith being present within The Matrix (when Neo, Trinity and others are hooked up to the machines which transport their minds into The Matrix).

There were so many scenes, and I can't remember. Clark?

--Cindy

Palomar · 2003-05-24 12:20:49

*What if the humans who awaken are -the- source of energy for The Matrix?

Believe it or not, a few years ago I was in contact with a guy named Don who, like me, had read the writings (mysticism) of Carlos Castenada. In _The Eagle's Gift_, Castenada's mentor, a shaman named "Juan Matus" said that "The Eagle" is the creator and, in fact, the universe; and that all soul energy which escapes humans at death goes to "The Eagle," which feeds on it...however, some self-aware and more highly evolved soul energy may escape being devoured. Don believed in a different entity similar to "The Eagle," namely the ancient Egyptian god "Set" (aka "Seth")...who he believes lives and thrives from human energy/contact.

There is a shamanistic school of mysticism (Toltec/Mexico), of which certain adherents which claims reality is as portrayed in "The Matrix," and that students of its shamanism can learn to control it, etc.

Ya know, this just might explain the old "Devil versus God" aspects of theology.

Just thought I'd throw this in for the heck of it.

--Cindy

Bill White · 2003-05-24 12:27:42

Another clever observation - IMHO - from that same essay:

Whether we view the film from a Gnostic Christian or Buddhist perspective, the overwhelming message seems to be, "Wake up!" The point is made explicit in the final song of the film, Wake Up!, by, appropriately, Rage Against the Machine.

"Wake up, Neo" is the opening text, no?

And more, from the footnotes

6. Feminists critics can rejoice when Trinity first reveals her name to Neo, as he pointedly responds, "The Trinity?... Jesus, I thought you were a man." Her quick reply: "Most men do."
7. The Wachowski brothers indicate that the names were "all chosen carefully, and all of them have multiple meanings," and also note this applies to the numbers as well (Wachowski chat).

Palomar · 2003-05-24 12:28:52

*What if the humans who awaken are -the- source of energy for The Matrix?

*Hmmmm. I think I just answered this for myself: It can't be. If the awakened humans are -the- source of energy to 'The Matrix,' to seek to destroy the awakened humans would be tantamount to suicide...Unless, of course, harrassing them and hunting them down is another part of the manipulation -- higher levels of anxiety and higher levels of action resulting in higher levels of *energy output.* This makes sense. If not, then the Agents are rather weak and ineffectual against the awakened humans, in not being able to destroy the humans easily. Of course, then we have high levels of 2-way energy going on (i.e. the hunters and the hunted).

Hmmmmm. I think I need a break from all this!

--Cindy

clark · 2003-05-24 13:04:30

I give them credit, they did a good job with the constraints- i was impressed there... BUT...

Do you believe Thomas Anderson was named by random happenstance?

Ah, but would my belief make it otherwise? ???

I honestly don't recall Agent Smith being physically in Zion. ? What scene was that?

Zion operatives were jumping out of the matrix with the message from the oracle to neo. Agent smith got one of them before they could leave. Then agent smith tried to stab neo before he left Zion. Next we see him in the final shot of the movie where Agent Smith is the only survivor of Zion, and there are suspicions that he is the traitor- the camera PANS from Neo in a coma (not comma-d'oh), to the still figure of the character infused with Agent Smith's mind. Then the movie says : to be concluded.

I think the third movie will reveal the intentions of the Computer- that escape is impossible, and that the characters will never be able to truly know if any reality is real. So in the face of finality, you are faced with a choice of exsisting within any reality you choose to believe in, or choose to fight against whichever reality you are in. It's what you make of it.

The people who flee the Matrix only end up creating another reality in which escape is possible- but it is escape into another just as fictious as the previous one. Escape is impossible. As the Architect says,"your most pertinent question is also the most irrelevant one."

It dosen't matter. ???

Palomar · 2003-05-24 13:25:22

*Okay, I just had something slightly weird happen. I was visting Daryl Cagle's cartoon web site (go to Google, enter his name, click on first link on page).

There are blocked color cartoon drawings (in a rectangular block) which serve as the "cover", so to speak, for the string of cartoons pertaining to a subject: For instance, right now the 3 uppermost deal with "where are the WMDs," "The NY Times Scandal," etc. There are some *animated* covers, but very simple. I was switching from one window (Daryl Cagle's web page) to my Microsoft Word window (alt+Tab). I switched back to Microsoft Word window, then a few seconds later glanced back at Cagle's page, did this again about a minute later, and a split second before I switched back to the Microsoft Window I noticed a vertical black rectangle with green digits on it, of differing brightness -- like what you see in "The Matrix" movies. I thought, "Does it have a cover for a string of cartoons dealing with the movie?" I switched back...nope, nothing there, and I hadn't noticed it before. I wondered if maybe Cagle had it set only to show occasionally; a trick of sorts. Nope. I tried again...waited...nothing.

Hmmmmmm. ?? No, I'm perfectly sober, and I don't have any mental problems.

Geez, discussing this movie must really be getting to me.

--Cindy

Bill White · 2003-05-24 13:28:06

I think the third movie will reveal the intentions of the Computer- that escape is impossible, and that the characters will never be able to truly know if any reality is real. So in the face of finality, you are faced with a choice of exsisting within any reality you choose to believe in, or choose to fight against whichever reality you are in. It's what you make of it.

To again quote my now favorite source on the Matrix:

Footnote 30. A viewer asked the Wachowski brothers, "What is the role or {sic} faith in the movie? Faith in oneself first and foremost ? or in something else?" They answered, "Hmmmm, that is a tough question! Faith in one's self, how's that for an answer?" This reply hardly settles the issue (Wachowski chat).

Bill White · 2003-05-24 13:29:46

*Okay, I just had something slightly weird happen."

Which pill would you prefer, Cindy?

clark · 2003-05-24 13:31:37

The ones that say Zan-X are nice. :laugh:

clark · 2003-05-24 13:45:53

Faith in one's self, how's that for an answer?" This reply hardly settles the issue (Wachowski chat).

Faith in your own exsitence, not faith in an exsistence.

I is a declaration of ultimate loniness.

Palomar · 2003-05-24 13:55:28

*Okay, I just had something slightly weird happen."
Which pill would you prefer, Cindy?

*Ha ha.

The subconscious mind and the tricks it plays. ::sigh::

Of course, Juan Matus, the shaman, might say that the world had given me an "agreement"... {{Twilight Zone music}}

And by the way, Clark: It's spelled Xanax. And no, it's not a prescription of mine; I know its correct spelling because I'm a medical transcriptionist of 16 year's experience.

--Cindy

New Mars Forums

Announcement

#51 2003-05-23 16:51:48

Re: Favorite Sci-Fi Movie? - Blade Runner for me. . .

#52 2003-05-23 18:57:53

Re: Favorite Sci-Fi Movie? - Blade Runner for me. . .

#53 2003-05-24 07:47:26

Re: Favorite Sci-Fi Movie? - Blade Runner for me. . .

#54 2003-05-24 08:27:05

Re: Favorite Sci-Fi Movie? - Blade Runner for me. . .

#55 2003-05-24 09:13:08

Re: Favorite Sci-Fi Movie? - Blade Runner for me. . .

#56 2003-05-24 10:15:41

Re: Favorite Sci-Fi Movie? - Blade Runner for me. . .

#57 2003-05-24 10:38:53

Re: Favorite Sci-Fi Movie? - Blade Runner for me. . .

#58 2003-05-24 10:42:03

Re: Favorite Sci-Fi Movie? - Blade Runner for me. . .

#59 2003-05-24 11:00:41

Re: Favorite Sci-Fi Movie? - Blade Runner for me. . .

#60 2003-05-24 11:22:42

Re: Favorite Sci-Fi Movie? - Blade Runner for me. . .

#61 2003-05-24 11:42:11

Re: Favorite Sci-Fi Movie? - Blade Runner for me. . .

#62 2003-05-24 11:54:30

Re: Favorite Sci-Fi Movie? - Blade Runner for me. . .

#63 2003-05-24 12:06:48

Re: Favorite Sci-Fi Movie? - Blade Runner for me. . .

#64 2003-05-24 12:13:22

Re: Favorite Sci-Fi Movie? - Blade Runner for me. . .

#65 2003-05-24 12:13:33

Re: Favorite Sci-Fi Movie? - Blade Runner for me. . .

#66 2003-05-24 12:20:49

Re: Favorite Sci-Fi Movie? - Blade Runner for me. . .

#67 2003-05-24 12:27:42

Re: Favorite Sci-Fi Movie? - Blade Runner for me. . .

#68 2003-05-24 12:28:52

Re: Favorite Sci-Fi Movie? - Blade Runner for me. . .

#69 2003-05-24 13:04:30

Re: Favorite Sci-Fi Movie? - Blade Runner for me. . .

#70 2003-05-24 13:25:22

Re: Favorite Sci-Fi Movie? - Blade Runner for me. . .

#71 2003-05-24 13:28:06

Re: Favorite Sci-Fi Movie? - Blade Runner for me. . .

#72 2003-05-24 13:29:46

Re: Favorite Sci-Fi Movie? - Blade Runner for me. . .

#73 2003-05-24 13:31:37

Re: Favorite Sci-Fi Movie? - Blade Runner for me. . .

#74 2003-05-24 13:45:53

Re: Favorite Sci-Fi Movie? - Blade Runner for me. . .

#75 2003-05-24 13:55:28

Re: Favorite Sci-Fi Movie? - Blade Runner for me. . .

Board footer