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#1 2026-06-24 10:18:33
- Void
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- Registered: 2011-12-29
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Working with Worlds with Clathrates
As always, the management can give directions on this.
I have been looking int the idea of clathrates on worlds. It seems that they may be very common.
They are expected for Ceres, Callisto, Titan and others. The characteristic is that they are lighter than water ice, and are thermally insulating.
I think they could be part of why many worlds have diminished or absent atmospheres.
Query: "Are Clathrates heavier than water ice?"
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Clathrate hydrates are not heavier than pure water ice — in fact, they are generally less dense and therefore lighter than ordinary ice.Clathrate hydrates are crystalline solids made of water molecules arranged in a cage-like lattice, with small guest molecules (often gases like methane, CO₂, or N₂) trapped inside Wikipedia+1. The water in clathrates is not chemically bonded to the guest molecules, and the hydrate structure is stabilized by the presence of these guest species. Without them, the lattice would collapse into a more open ice structure Wikipedia.
Because the guest molecules are typically lighter than water and occupy only a fraction of the lattice, the overall density of clathrate hydrates is usually lower than that of pure ice. For example, methane clathrate can have a density around 0.9 g/cm³, which is less than the ~0.92 g/cm³ of ice Ih at 0°C condor.wesleyan.edu. This means that, in terms of mass per unit volume, clathrates are lighter than water ice.
In summary:
Water ice (ice Ih) has a density of about 0.92 g/cm³ at 0°C.
Clathrate hydrates (e.g., methane clathrate) have densities often below 0.9 g/cm³, making them lighter than water ice condor.wesleyan.edu.
So, clathrates are not heavier than water ice — they are generally less dense and therefore lighter.
Query: "Clathrates on Mars?"
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Ceres’ crust contains clathrates—gas molecules trapped in water-ice cages—that act as thermal insulators and influence the dwarf planet’s internal chemistry.
What Are Clathrates?
Clathrates are crystalline compounds in which guest molecules, such as gases, are trapped inside cage-like structures formed by host molecules, typically water ice in planetary contexts
Wikipedia
Wikipedia
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. On Earth, clathrates commonly trap methane, carbon dioxide, or nitrogen, forming under low-temperature and high-pressure conditions, such as in permafrost or deep-sea sediments
wesleyan.edu
wesleyan.edu
+1
. These structures are highly stable and can significantly slow heat transfer due to their poor thermal conductivity, effectively insulating the surrounding material
Wikipedia
Wikipedia
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.Clathrates on Ceres
Data from NASA’s Dawn mission indicate that Ceres’ crust contains clathrates, which may help explain why liquid water has persisted beneath its surface for millions of years
ABC (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)
ABC (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)
. The clathrates act like an insulating layer, reducing heat loss from the interior and potentially maintaining pockets of liquid water or brines. This insulation is crucial for understanding Ceres’ geologic activity, including the formation of features like the bright spots in Occator Crater, which are associated with salts and brines that may have been mobilized by subsurface melting
ABC (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)
ABC (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)
.Implications for Habitability
The presence of clathrates on Ceres suggests that the dwarf planet could have had transient habitable conditions in its past. By slowing heat loss, clathrates may have allowed subsurface oceans or brines to remain liquid long enough to support chemical reactions that are essential for life, although sustained habitability is unlikely
ABC (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)
ABC (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)
. If life ever existed, it would likely have been microbial extremophiles capable of surviving in cold, briny environments.Comparison to Earth and Other Bodies
Similar to methane hydrates on Earth, Ceres’ clathrates trap volatile molecules within water-ice cages, but the specific gases and environmental conditions differ. On Earth, clathrates are often associated with energy resources and geohazards, while on Ceres, they primarily influence thermal evolution and potential chemical activity
Wikipedia
Wikipedia
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. Understanding these clathrates provides insight into the broader role of gas hydrates in planetary science and the potential for habitable niches on icy worlds.
Query: "Can there be clathrates under the surface of the Northern Hemisphere of Mars?"
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Clathrates Under the Surface of the Northern Hemisphere of Mars
Yes — carbon dioxide clathrates (CO₂ hydrates) are physically possible under the surface of the northern hemisphere of Mars, especially in the high-latitude cryosphere, though their current abundance is uncertain.Formation and Stability
CO₂ clathrates are crystalline solids where water ice forms a cage-like lattice that traps CO₂ molecules. They form under low temperatures and high CO₂ pressures, conditions that exist in the Martian cryosphere Wikipedia+1. On Mars, the northern hemisphere’s high-latitude regions (including the north polar cap) have seasonal CO₂ ice deposits and subsurface water ice, making these conditions favorable for clathrate formation Diamond Light Source.Current Evidence and Constraints
Surface clathrates: Studies suggest that near-surface CO₂ clathrates are unlikely to be significant in the modern Martian regolith because Mars has lost much of its atmosphere and surface pressure is too low to maintain them marspedia.org.Buried clathrates: Deeper in the subsurface, especially in the higher latitudes, CO₂ clathrates could be more stable. Some researchers believe significant amounts may exist buried beneath the surface ice, possibly as ancient deposits formed when atmospheric pressure was higher marspedia.org+1.
Geological role: Clathrates are thought to have contributed to the formation of Martian chaotic terrains, possibly through sudden melting events that released gas and water marspedia.org+1.
Martian Cryosphere Context
The Martian cryosphere extends up to ~22 km beneath the surface at the poles and ~9 km at the equator Diamond Light Source. Within this zone, briny water ice (with dissolved salts) can still form CO₂ clathrates, though they are less stable in saline solutions than in pure water Diamond Light Source. Even in saline conditions, clathrates are still expected to exist in parts of the cryosphere, influencing subsurface processes.Summary
While surface clathrates are unlikely today due to low atmospheric pressure, subsurface CO₂ clathrates could exist under the northern hemisphere’s surface ice, particularly in the high-latitude cryosphere. These would be more stable and possibly more abundant than at the surface, and may have played a role in shaping Mars’s geology in the past marspedia.org+1.
I have made this topic broad enough to include Mars but not be restricted to Mars. I think that Mars started as an Earth-Like world and then transitioned to the degree possible into the behavior of worlds further out in the solar system.
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Last edited by Void (2026-06-24 10:31:46)
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#2 2026-06-24 10:39:37
- Void
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- Registered: 2011-12-29
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Re: Working with Worlds with Clathrates
So, I am starting with the notion that Mars had large seas and even a northern ocean.
It seems that some water is in cracks in the crust now, some is in polar ice caps, some has likely gone away into space.
But what would the later days of such a sea or ocean be like as the atmosphere thinned?
https://www.jsg.utexas.edu/news/2026/04 … one-ocean/ Quote:
Newly Discovered Coastal Shelf on Mars Could be Best Evidence Yet for Long-Gone Ocean
April 15, 2026
Image Quote: 
For the notions I have about this I have my idea on Antarctica. As the atmosphere thinned/Planet cooled, then some of the lakes might tell a story about the possible nature of the dying ocean.
Query: "Could Mars have fossil ice from a sea under its northern hemisphere?"
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Could Mars Have Fossil Ice from an Ancient Northern Ocean?
Yes — the Mars ocean hypothesis suggests that early Mars, about 4.1–3.8 billion years ago, may have had a primordial ocean covering roughly a third of its surface in the northern lowlands Wikipedia. This “Paleo-Ocean” or Oceanus Borealis would have filled the Vastitas Borealis basin, which is 4–5 km below the planet’s mean elevation Wikipedia. If such an ocean existed, it would have required a denser atmosphere and warmer climate to keep water liquid Wikipedia.Evidence for the Ancient Ocean
Shoreline features: Orbital images show long, low-elevation ridges and sedimentary deposits that resemble ancient coastlines Wikipedia+1.Coastal shelf: In 2026, a wide, deep sedimentary shelf was identified in the northern lowlands, similar to Earth’s continental shelves under oceans Jackson School of Geosciences.
Beach ridges: China’s Zhurong rover found layered deposits consistent with tidal beach ridges, suggesting a persistent, stable ocean rather than a temporary flood scienceinsights.org.
Channel networks: Massive channels in the southern highlands may have fed water into the northern lowlands Wikipedia.
Fossil Ice from the Ocean
If the ocean existed, much of its water would have been lost to space or locked in ice. Today, Mars has large polar ice caps and subsurface water ice, but the total volume is far less than what would be needed for an ocean scienceinsights.org. However, fossil ice — water ice preserved in sedimentary layers or beneath the surface — could have formed from:Ocean evaporation: Water vapor escaping into the atmosphere and condensing into ice.
Sedimentary trapping: Ice preserved in ancient lake or ocean sediments, similar to how Earth’s glacial deposits contain fossil ice.
Subsurface aquifers: Water trapped in the crust after the ocean drained.
Why It’s Plausible
The northern lowlands’ flat, low-elevation basin is ideal for holding a large body of water. Over time, as Mars cooled and its atmosphere thinned, the ocean would have dried up, leaving behind sedimentary records and possibly buried ice layers scienceinsights.org+1. These fossil ice deposits could be preserved in the same sedimentary basins that now hold the planet’s polar ice.In summary: If Mars once had a northern ocean, it’s highly likely that fossil ice — in the form of buried water ice or ice in ancient sedimentary layers — would still exist in the region, especially in the sedimentary deposits and shelf formations found there Wikipedia+2.
Query: "Excessive Oxygen levels in ice covered lakes in Antarctica?"
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Excessive Oxygen Levels in Ice-Covered Antarctic Lakes
Perennially ice-covered lakes in Antarctica, such as Lake Hoare in the McMurdo Dry Valleys, can have dissolved oxygen (O₂) levels far above atmospheric saturation — sometimes 2–2.4 times supersaturated NASA Technical Reports Server (NTRS). This is unusual because in temperate lakes, oxygen is typically depleted at night and replenished by sunlight during the day. In polar lakes, the yearly photoperiod means oxygen is produced continuously during the long summer days.Causes of Supersaturation
1. Physical processes (meltwater inflow)Meltwater from surrounding glaciers and snowmelt carries dissolved gases, including oxygen, into the lake NASA Technical Reports Server (NTRS).
In Lake Hoare, ~70% of total gas loss occurs through advection (flow) through the ice cover, with the rest removed by respiration at the lake bottom or molecular exchange at the ice–water interface NASA Technical Reports Server (NTRS).
This inflow can significantly elevate O₂ concentrations, especially in the water column below the ice.
2. Biological production
Cyanobacteria and other photosynthetic microbes in the lake’s microbial mats produce oxygen during the long summer days NDTV+1.
In Lake Hoare, only about 11% of O₂ input is from biological activity, but in other perennially ice-covered lakes, biological production can be a major contributor NASA Technical Reports Server (NTRS)+1.
Microbial mats in lakes like Lake Fryxell show zonation along oxygen gradients, with cyanobacteria dominating in the hyperoxic (oxygen-rich) zones pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov.
3. Seasonal cycling
Sediment oxygen profiles in Lake Hoare show oxygenation extending several centimeters below the sediment–water interface, which is atypical for most lakes NASA Technical Reports Server (NTRS).
A seasonal model suggests that the long photoperiod and benthic primary production in oxygen-rich water columns can sustain high O₂ levels year-round.
Examples and Implications
Lake Unter-See in Queen Maud Land has extremely high O₂ and low CO₂, with conical stromatolites formed by cyanobacteria that release oxygen trapped beneath the ice NDTV.These high O₂ environments support unique microbial communities adapted to hyperoxia and low temperatures.
In summary: Excessive oxygen in Antarctic ice-covered lakes is driven by a combination of meltwater inflow, continuous photosynthetic production, and seasonal light availability, with physical processes often dominating over biological ones in some systems. This creates stable, oxygen-rich environments that are rare in Earth’s lakes and important for studying extremophile microbial life.
https://ntrs.nasa.gov/citations/19920038874
https://www.jstor.org/stable/2876158
So, apparently if you drill a hole in the ice the water that comes up may fizz like a soft drink, discharging gasses including Oxygen.
A stream of melt water may bring CO2 and/or small air bubbles into a lake in a warm period. I light gets in though the ice lid, algae may convert it to biomass and Oxygen. So, it is a system to pump an atmosphere into a ice covered body of water.
I won't presume that Mars had Photosynthesis. But the formation of Clathrates is possible.
If a dying ocean was mostly covered in ice even in the warm periods, it may still have had brief periods where snow and ice could melt. It also could have glaciers that would flow into it and melt under the body of the glacier, perhaps brining gasses into it.
So, it would be a positive feedback loop. The more atmosphere was converted into clathrates in the ice-covered seas, the thinner the atmosphere.
Unlike the Antarctic Dry Vally situation, 2/3 of Mars would be dry dusty desert at this time, I presume. So, dust would begin to cover the ice. If a thin coating it might help in the summer melts, if thick then it might allow the seas and oceans to freeze all the way down. I there were still some temporary rivers and streams seasonally, the melt water could wedge itself under the ice if it could find a crack, and the Ice which perhaps was impregnated with Clathrates, would lift up if not weighted down by too many wind-borne sediments.
Remnants of the ice and clathrates might be more likely to persist where warm surface conditions seldom penetrated deep enough to melt the remnants. It is hard to say if the axial tilt would have cause all of it to melt. Clathrates can exist at somewhat higher temperatures than ice if under pressure.
And then there would be the percolation of Hydrogen up from the subsurface. If it found Carbon, it might create Methane which would be another opportunity to create clathrates.
So, the point is we can hope that the subsurface of Mars may have reserves of CO2, N2, and Methane as parts of Clathrates.
So, maybe Mars has more potential for terraforming than is commonly held as a belief these days.
Ending Pending
Last edited by Void (2026-06-24 11:09:47)
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#3 2026-06-24 20:23:33
- Void
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- Registered: 2011-12-29
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Re: Working with Worlds with Clathrates
Well, how soon will be outdated by AI?
I have contemplated getting into deep oceans previously by filling a shaft with oil that would be a similar specific gravity of the ice/clathrate shell. My phones AI indicated that it was possible but then said additives would be needed. I started to query it about an Ammonia Water mix, and I don't think I finished the question, and it answered the question.
My imagination or not it appears that it might be possible to dig a shaft and put a mix of water and Ammonia in it and it would not collapse.
I am thinking that the shaft would be loke a bamboo length with multiple chambers with doors to go from one to another.
A certain amount of temperature regulation needed, maybe insulation.
But it might be that you could get robots up and down through it.
Ceres, Callisto, Ganymede, Europa, Titan, Enceladus, Pluto, Eris?, other dwarf planets?
I am sure it would be trickier than that, but the basic Idea seems possible.
Ending Pending
Last edited by Void (2026-06-24 20:28:31)
Is it possible that the root of political science claims is to produce white collar jobs for people who paid for an education and do not want a real job?
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