a Venus Cycler

tahanson43206 · 2024-10-13 06:14:10

This topic is inspired by a post of Calliban in October of 2024...

https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 44#p227244

Calliban provided a link to a Wikipedia article about an asteroid that will approach Venus in 2029, after passing close to Earth in 2011.

The Asteroid will return close to Earth in 2041

On 19 January 2029, (308635) 2005 YU55 will pass 0.0023 AU (340,000 km; 210,000 mi) from Venus.[15] The close approach distance to Venus in 2029 will determine how close the asteroid will pass to Earth in 2041.[3] Before the November 2011 observations, the uncertainties in the post-2029 trajectory showed that the asteroid would pass somewhere between 0.002 AU (300,000 km; 190,000 mi) and 0.3 AU (45,000,000 km; 28,000,000 mi) of Earth in 2041.[3] Radar astrometry in November 2011 clarified the Earth passage in 2041 and beyond.[3] As a result of the November 2011 radar observations, it is now known that (308635) 2005 YU55 will pass between 0.1017 AU (15,210,000 km; 9,450,000 mi) and 0.1020 AU of Earth on 12 November 2041.[15] Using the current uncertainty region integrated until the future, the 2075 approach will be between 0.0013 AU (190,000 km; 120,000 mi) and 0.0021 AU (310,000 km; 200,000 mi).[15]

It may be possible to deliver an instrument package to this asteroid in 2041. That package would then travel (slowly) to Venus, and it would be able to take measurements along the way and after.

The instrument package could be a model for a set of radio beacons to be installed on all sizable objects in the Solar System, as the equivalent of marine warning buoys on Earth.

(th)

tahanson43206 · 2024-10-13 06:14:49

This post is reserved for an index to posts that may be contributed by NewMars members over time.

(th)

Void · 2024-10-13 08:29:38

Here is a list of crossers and grazers for Venus: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_V … or_planets

I would make the point that if you could join asteroid materials with materials from Venus such as water, Nitrogen, and CO2, you might have something of value. As I see it this could involve solar propulsive methods and air braking in the atmosphere of Venus.

I describe this in generalize terms on purpose. Solar propulsions could be sailing on Photons, sailing on the Solar Wind, and also the possibility of electric space drives that use things like Metals, Carbon, or Silicon as propellant mass.

You might move materials to be in orbit of Venus, or in a solar orbit that is synchronous with the solar orbit of Venus.

For instance, asteroid materials could be herded into locations where an elliptical orbit has a conjunction with Venus every two Venus years. It would also have a conjunction with the L3 location for Venus in a similar time period but on the opposite side of the sun.

A year on Venus is 225 Earth Days. So, the cycler would have a year of 450 Earth Days.

A Mars year is 687 Earth days. 3 Times 225 = 675 Earth Days. So, pretty close.

So, a 3 to 1 cycler for Venus, might come rather close to aligning with the years of Mars.

I suspect that it would go out near or in the asteroid belt as well.

If you have to use chemical or nuclear thermal propulsion to transfer mass, then it seems troublesome.

But if you use an Electric propulsion or sailing on Photons or the Solar wind or a combination of those, then it may not be so bad.

If you had a set of cyclers, I am thinking that you could at times have them synchronous with the Orbit of Venus, and then shift them to be synchronized with the orbits of Mars, with not too much orbital energy shifting. Maybe I need corrections.

Another factor that is of interest is Mercury, Earth, and Jupiter.

Mercury = 88 days. 4 times 88 days = 352, which is suspiciously near 365.

Jupiter = 4,333 Earth Days. So, about 11.87 Earth years.

I was not so sure that Jupiter mattered but have seen notions that Jupiter and Mercury have a relationship.

Um... 4,333 / 352 = 12.3.

Um... 4,333 / 88 = 49.24

Just some fun, Venus and Mars, might host cyclers that continuously get built up as larger and larger, and rather than having a cycler intercept both planets for each orbit, you could lock onto one of the planets and interact with it and then switch over to lock onto the other planet from time to time, over large time scales. You might get materials for these Castles from terrestrial crossing asteroids, and to some degree from Venus and Mars alternately.

This is a little different sort of concept than using a Castle as a spaceship. Rather it might be a city to live in.

Hope I have not pulled your notions off from your intentions too much.

Mass transfers would be by way of efficient slow methods, and also in the case of Mars and Venus the use of air braking. But your Castles would make orbital swaps from time to time locking on to Mars or Venus alternately.

An interesting thing might be done with Ceres. You could have cyclers that might lock on to it and yet dip towards the sun to get more energy, and then the Castles might shift to lock onto a different major asteroid.

Again, the philosophy is a bit different. A castle would be in communion with one world at a time. So, as far as societies would go, the exchange of Memes and Genes would be enhanced, as you would exchange people with the world you were currently aligned with.

In tribal conditions of history, this allowed gene flow, allowing good genes and perhaps good ideas to congregate in some locations.

Typically, in relatively peaceful times generally for humans the females were adopted from one tribe to another.

For a solar system of societies, this could be of value as mixing of people may enhance mixing of skills, and ideas. If you have relatives in another location of the solar system, even if distant cousins, it may help humanize the "Other" a bit, which may dampen hate and suspicion.

Again, readjust the course of this if you don't like what I have done to your topic.

Ending Pending

I will risk annoying you just a little more. In a strange asymmetrical symmetry, the exchange-adoption of women across groups, is not so unlike the male sperm being transferred to a female.

I believe that a cultural problem we are having at this point is a layered society where a few elected males at the top are above the grouping of females, and then under that the common males. In order to sustain that the social system works to degrade the common males socially and ignores the fact that adopted females are hosted in a social womb of people very often common males.

The intentional damaging of status of common males, then leads to increased damage to family structure, and over time the devaluation of children and the act of bearing young.

Supposedly all these radicalized females can then mate with quality males, the alphas. And this must seem a really good Darwinist notion. After domination "Must" demonstrate superiority.

Of course I don't like it. We have an issue where the left does not feel that any male should apply opinion to the female to not abort babies.

But as adopted females are in effect in the wombs of society, is it wrong then to abort such women if they are an inconvenience to Men? As the left implies that if a pregnancy is to be aborted if it is an inconvenience.

My point being that we will not seed the solar system with settlements on worlds and in cycling castles, unless we instill personal responsibility into the citizens, both Male and Female.

You can reprimand me if you wish. But the whole point of going into space is discovery and human expansion.

You need humans to do that.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2024-10-13 09:13:43)

Void · 2024-10-14 08:54:03

I suppose I could do a follow up and stick closer to the mechanics of machines.

-I think Venus could have cyclers.
-Then somewhat robotic mining operations on terrestrial crossing asteroids could bring solids to the Orbit and Atmosphere of Venus using Air Braking and perhaps some type of metal propellant electric propulsion. Most of such materials would be stony, but there would be a little water and Carbon.
-Somehow mining the atmosphere of Venus could contribute Nitrogen, Carbon, and Hydrogen.

-Then using solar power methods products from Venus could fly to the mining communities at terrestrial crossing asteroids.
-Similarly, materials could come from Venus to cyclers that visit it, using solar power methods.

I think that floating cities in the atmosphere of Venus would mostly be inhabited by robots, as they need much less life support than humans.
And so, then you need less "Balloon Space". But I suppose on occasion a human or so might dwell in the clouds.

But I see the larger part of human habitation for Venus being in orbit of the Planet where such a civil structure would be materially supported by sunlight, materials from Venus, and materials from terrestrial crossing asteroids.

And with cyclers, people could cross from World<>Castle<>World, and so on.

The solar energy at Venus and Mercury would be very much a resource.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2024-10-14 08:58:02)

Calliban · 2024-10-15 00:11:08

TH, why deliver a Venus instrument package to an asteroid? Why not put it on a probe whose trajectory can be optimum for what you want to study?

A Venus cycler idea is interesting. The orbital period of Venus is much shorter than Mars and the orbit is tighter, suggesting more frequent close approaches. So it could work better for Venus than for Mars. That is assuming anyone wants to go to Venus of course. An Earth Venus Mercury cycler is also possible.

tahanson43206 · 2024-10-15 06:18:34

For Calliban re #5

Thank you for your contribution to this new topic!

To quote from the opening post:

It may be possible to deliver an instrument package to this asteroid in 2041. That package would then travel (slowly) to Venus, and it would be able to take measurements along the way and after.
The instrument package could be a model for a set of radio beacons to be installed on all sizable objects in the Solar System, as the equivalent of marine warning buoys on Earth.

Your question and suggestion provide an opportunity for us to discuss two aspects of space Situation Awareness that will receive a lot of attention as humans venture further out from Earth.

In recent days, in a topic about a cycler concept for Mars, you made an observation about possibly being able to let a cycler go once it has been given a starting shove. While that may not be the best practice for a human cycler, that is ** exactly ** what Nature is doing with the asteroid that Void found that visits Earth and Venus. Thus, the advantage for scientists who place an instrument package on that particular asteroid is that it's location can be predicted for many years to come. The ongoing costs of spacecraft navigation are eliminated from the science budget. A resource that explains those ongoing costs is "Planetary Spacecraft Navigation" by James Miller.

However, the primary benefit is placing a solar powered beacon on the asteroid. Eventually all objects in the Solar System will need to be so marked, whether it be for safety reasons, or for identification of available resources to be collected at some future time.

***
Thanks for your observation about the possibility a cycler for Venus/Earth might have a more frequent travel opportunity than does the Mars/Earth cycler.

(th)

Void · 2024-10-15 09:56:27

The reason to have cyclers for Venus would be that Venus itself could be useful.

I will note that as Calliban has suggested greater frequency of visits for an Earth-Venus cycler, also the solar power potential is greater for this than for Earth-Mars.

Propulsions for a Castle for Earth-Venus could include:
1) Solar Photon Sails.
2) Solar wind Sails that would need solar power or nuclear power to activate the magnetics.
3) Solar Electric Rocket, which would need solar power and mass from Venus or Asteroids, maybe the Moon.

Even Stony asteroids are expected to have some amount of Hydrogen embedded in them. New propulsion methods make most of the materials of a stony asteroid useful propulsion mass. This was not true before, so stony asteroids were undesirable. But now https://www.magdrive.space/ suggests that at least Iron and Aluminum will be suitable propellants. And https://neumannspace.com/neumann-drive/ can use most elements as propellants.

The question is can these two be sized up to levels useful to navigate asteroid materials into a air brake with Venus?

In this I presume that a mostly robotic work force will make heat shields from asteroid materials, and also at the same time extract propulsion means such as Iron and Aluminum from the stony materials. Using special drives then the created heat shields could be air braked into orbit of Venus. By the way Oxygen can also be use as a propellant in a Oxygen Mass Driver.

Atmospheric materials might be lifted to orbit by some methods. These could be Nitrogen, Carbon, Hydrogen, Oxygen, Sulfur.

Lift methods could include aerostats in the atmosphere of Venus and rockets, and I hope also some method to extract molecules from the upper atmosphere of Venus directly to orbit of Venus.

If this were accomplished, then those substances could be provided to Outerspace communities, with a possible delivery method using various solar assisted drive systems.

If aerostats were mostly for Robots then they could have a Hydrogen fill inside of them instead of air. Possibly Helium if large quantities of Helium could be secured.

I have mentioned skyhooks and rotavators for snatching atmosphere to orbit.

I also have another notion which I will attempt a drawing for. Here it is:

I am imagining a hollow open end cylinder with open ends facing the solar north and south to radiate heat.
The outer surface of the cylinder is to be of very insulating materials. Perhaps aerogel like. But also to have reflective foils over that.

The intention is to provide a very cold interior of the cylinder.

It has to orbit at a low orbit so as to graze the very upper atmosphere of Venus.

The notion is that atmospheric molecules on a bounce up will enter the North and South openings and be captured perhaps on an electrostatic surface and cool of, even possibly condense.

Molecules or atoms in the tail are likely to be dominated by Oxygen. At the Bow Shock though there may be Hydrogen and Helium from the solar wind, and also we hope some Nitrogen and CO2 or CO, or Carbon.

If these substances do not condense to a solid when trapped on an electrostatic surface, it may be possible to use a jet of Helium to squirt sideways to sweep them into a compression and condensation chamber.

Intercepting the bow shock I hope to collect Helium and Hydrogen.

It is to be kept in mind that Oxygen collected can be used as a propellant in a mass driver.

But the device will drag, so a lifting method is needed.

Possibly a Photon Solar Sail, or a Solar Wind Sailing method.

Construction materials in Venus's orbits could be imported asteroid materials, Carbon, Sulfur, Water Ice, and CO2 Ice.

It is to be noticed that things like asteroid materials and Carbon and Water, can serve as radiation protection in orbit.

It would be nice to be able to collect Hydrogen and Oxygen from the Bow Shock, for water, but if that does not work then I guess Hydrogen might be taken from the Sulfuric Acid in the clouds and transported up to orbit.

It is my opinion that gardens will not so much be in the Clouds of Venus, but in orbit of the planet, inside of habitats of a sort.

Granted this stuff is farfetched, and half baked, but you have to half bake something before you can fully bake it and then to fetch it from a far reach.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2024-10-15 11:02:57)

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a Venus Cycler

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