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kbd512

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Registered: 2015-01-02

Posts: 7,811

Using Particle Accelerators to Transport Atmosphere to Mars from Venus

As the name of this topic suggests, this concept is about using particle accelerators for purposes of taking some of the atmosphere away from Venus, a planet that has 93X more atmospheric mass than Earth, and firing CO2 molecules from Venus into the orbital path of Mars.

Do we have enough mass to work with, given some realistic loss rate?

How much energy and transfer time are we looking at?

Do we really need to accelerate CO2 molecules to near the speed of light, or merely fast enough to escape Venus and fly out to Mars?

The idea is to thicken the Martian atmosphere over time so people can walk around outside without wearing pressure suits, and not be subjected to as much solar radiation intensity, owing to a much thicker atmosphere.  This idea is not about attempting to make the Martian atmosphere breathable.  That will have to come later.

Calliban

Member

From: Northern England, UK

Registered: 2019-08-18

Posts: 3,768

Re: Using Particle Accelerators to Transport Atmosphere to Mars from Venus

You must first ionise the CO2, which will require upwards of 1.1MJ/mol (25MJ/kg).
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molar_i … e_elements

It must then be accelerated to the speed of the solar wind, a few hundred km/s.  I think one problem is that this will be an energy intensive way of moving the material.  Another is producing a coherent beam of charged particles that won't disperse over interplanetary distance, due to disruption from the solar magnetic field and solar wind.

A less energy intensive approach would be to use a mass driver or rail gun to fire solid lumps of frozen CO2 onto an orbit that intersects the orbit of Mars.  Both devices are relatively efficient at converting electrical energy into kinetic energy ~50%.  And the only energy expended is that needed to move the mass through the suns gravitational field.

In a sense, the rail gun and mass driver are both particle accelerators that use magnetic and electric fields to accelerate particles.  But unlike something like a cyclotron, the particles don't need to be ionised and are not strongly influenced by solar wind pressure.  Which saves a great deal of energy.

Another option would be to use the solar wind or sunlight pressure to move the CO2.  If it is released as gas into space, the electric field of the solar wind will rapidly ionise it and accelerate the particles to velocity of 100+ km/s.  The problem here is that the CO2 will substantially disperse by the time it reaches Mars orbit.  A solar or magnetic sail might be a relatively cheap way or using solar wind or sunlight pressure to launch solid payloads onto a Mars crossing orbit allowing them to eventually collide with the planet's atmosphere.

Last edited by Calliban (2024-09-24 09:09:13)

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"Plan and prepare for every possibility, and you will never act. It is nobler to have courage as we stumble into half the things we fear than to analyse every possible obstacle and begin nothing. Great things are achieved by embracing great dangers."

kbd512

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Registered: 2015-01-02

Posts: 7,811

Re: Using Particle Accelerators to Transport Atmosphere to Mars from Venus

Calliban,

I think something on the order of 20 petawatts is required to move enough atmospheric mass so that roughly 6mb worth of atmospheric pressure is added to Mars each year, assuming none is lost in transit.  That obviously won't happen, but it sets a lower bound on the amount of power required to terraform Mars on human timescales of 50 years or so.  I was contemplating creating our first megastructure in space, a truly massive solar power array near Venus, some 5,883,221 square miles in size, assuming it can operate near 50% efficiency.  This would be much larger than the US, and require some further metamaterials development.

It would serve two purposes.  The first would be to reduce the amount of solar radiation hitting Venus to see what effect removing that much radiation has on planetary temperatures.  The second, and most obvious, is to supply the incredible amount of input power required to transfer atmospheric gases between planets.  It's a terraforming experiment with a practical purpose- creating two habitable planets from the standpoint of making the pressures and temperatures human-friendly, with an appropriate breathing apparatus.  Roughly speaking, I want to build the largest solar-pumped laser anyone's ever seen, for the express purpose of making both planets more habitable over time.

I want to create at least 3 habitable planets, so that we have real options about where to live within our own solar system.  If we could terraform the moon using CO2 from Venus, that would be an added bonus.  I'm hoping that would end the fixation on Earth, and fighting over scraps and resources when there are potentially 4 new planets with completely untapped resources.  It would give everyone something useful to do, which doesn't involve killing each other.  Quarrels will exist as long as we're still human, but when there's that much new land to explore, people will spread out and can be left to their own devices.  There would be an endless supply of work and economic opportunities.  This does require some forward thinking, but I believe having 4 different habitable planets is worthwhile.  At the same time, I want to use similar tech to go after some of that liquid hydrocarbon goodness that the moons and outer planets have to offer.

We need a fundamentally new form of transportation tech that doesn't require a physical storage container.

Calliban

Member

From: Northern England, UK

Registered: 2019-08-18

Posts: 3,768

Re: Using Particle Accelerators to Transport Atmosphere to Mars from Venus

A 5,883,221 square mile solar power satellite sounds huge, but it may be within human capability towards the end of this century.  Assuming a mass of 1kg/m2 of area, which is present day state of the art for space solar power, the total mass of the satellite would be 15 billion metric tonnes.  A 2km diameter stony asteroid will provide sufficient metals and silicon to build the satellite.

If the satellite is being used as a sun shield for Venus, then the combined effect of Venus gravity and sunlight pressure would be pushing it towards the planet.  Maybe the particle accelerator can provide enough reaction force to counteract these forces and keep the satellite in a stable solar orbit interior to Venus.

As huge as the project is, there are reasons to believe that human space based industrial capabilities will develop rapidly once established.  On Earth, human industrial development is ultimately limited by the availability of energy.  In free space, far away from planetary surfaces, sunlight is intense and available uninterupted 100% of the time.  A simple foil thin concave mirror is all that is needed to focus sunlight and achieve high temperature.  Standard aluminium foil weighs about 0.5kg/m2.  It could be made thinner still in a vacuum because no oxide layer will degrade the surface.  Glass fibres could be used to reinforce it allowing improved strength.  Such a mirror would weigh tens to a few hundred grams per square metre without structural support and no more than 1kg per square metre with it.  Taking the 1kg/m2 figure, a mirror capable of focusing 1000MW of heat would weigh 740 tonnes at Earth distance from the sun and even less if located closer to the sun.  The fact that simple foil mirrors can be used to provide uninterupted power and industrial heat gives me confidence that energy will be cheap in space.

If we can engineer on this scale, then we can presumably find an icy body in the asteroid belt and electrokyse enough water to create a breathable oxygen atmosphere for Mars.  The larger moons of Jupiter would be contenders for this type of terraforming as well, as there is no shortage of water ice in orbit around Jupiter.

Last edited by Calliban (2024-09-24 18:08:54)

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"Plan and prepare for every possibility, and you will never act. It is nobler to have courage as we stumble into half the things we fear than to analyse every possible obstacle and begin nothing. Great things are achieved by embracing great dangers."

kbd512

Administrator

Registered: 2015-01-02

Posts: 7,811

Re: Using Particle Accelerators to Transport Atmosphere to Mars from Venus

Calliban,

I view this megastructure as a way to generate heat, light, and electrical power at a scale and across distances we simply haven't gone to, as of yet.  If we can build this power plant / transport device to establish ourselves on other planets, then we can just as easily use it back on Earth to supply ourselves with materials that don't come from Earth, which means we can scale-back heavy industry.  Our solar system contains all kinds of goodies that are presently in short supply.  Certain materials such as high value metals we can cart off using conventional means, but I want to establish energy-based transport.  It's the closest thing to a teleporter we're likely to create in the near future.  We can also use the incredibly powerful laser to quickly carve up asteroids, or potentially propel them into the orbits we want them in for easy access.