Geothermal Storage of Renewable Thermal Energy

tahanson43206 · 2024-09-15 10:25:19

There are already three topics that include "geothermal" in the title....

As nearly as I can tell, all these topics assume that thermal energy would be drawn from the crust of the Earth.

This topic is different, because the concept is to use the thermal energy of the crust as an insulation layer around a store of thermal energy created by renewable energy devices on the surface.

As noted in a paper about CAES (Compressed Air Energy Storage) found and posted by Void in 2024, a major drawback of CAES systems is the loss of thermal energy accumulated in compressed gas, as these systems are currently implemented.

This topic is offered for NewMars members who might wish to study or perhaps even design an energy storage system that takes advantage of the thermal energy already stored in the Earth's crust, without drawing any of that energy.

Calliban has warned NewMars readers on numerous occasions that the material found in the Earth's crust is a poor conductor of thermal energy, and that if humans draw some of that energy from a volume of crust, it will take a long time for the Earth to replace the energy drawn.

This topic is offered as an alternative to drawing energy slowly accumulated by the Earth over eons. Instead, that energy can serve as an insulation layer for a human high temperature store. Some of the high levels of thermal energy stored by humans may pass into the surrounding crust, but the Earth itself will gently push back against this intrusion, and tend to restore that energy to the repository when it is drawn down.

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tahanson43206 · 2024-09-15 10:26:22

This post is reserved for an index to posts that may be contributed by NewMars members over time.

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tahanson43206 · 2024-09-16 18:10:02

We now appear to have two competing visions for how this topic will develop.

In the competition I hope to see in the weeks ahead, readers and members alike ** should ** be able to study carefully reasoned presentations on the advantages and disadvantages of the competing designs

On the simplistic side, we have the suggestion of simple compression of air in an abandoned oil well. The potential drawbacks of this design have been partially identified by kdb512 in several other topics. The advantage of this design is simplicity, and immediate return on the investment.

On the other side, where a bit more complexity is offered in a bid to improve the capabilities and the reliability of the system, we have a proposal by kbd512 to drop a loop of pipe down the abandoned well, and surround that loop with a suitable material. Suggested materials might include a suitable salt.

Since the site of the system is proposed to be an abandoned oil well made of iron pipe, the material chosen will have excellent thermal properties while at the same time not removing iron atoms from the wall of the pipe.

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tahanson43206 · 2024-09-16 18:16:55

The link below is to a paper published in 2024.

The focus of the paper is storage of thermal energy, and it covers a number of salt candidates.

An interesting characteristic of the enclosure is the use of graphite for the walls.

Presumably this is done in a bid to reduce corrosion.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/a … preferable.

Note: Table 2 contains a list of recommendedsalt PCM candidates

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tahanson43206 · 2024-09-16 18:50:05

In a bid to try to put the forum on a path toward real achievement in the Real Universe, here is a web site that lists abandoned oil wells in Texas. I'm sure there are similar web sites in other states and perhaps in other Nation.

https://www.rrc.texas.gov/oil-and-gas/r … 12-months/

Orphan Wells with Delinquent P-5 Greater Than 12 Months
Orphaned wells are inactive, non-compliant wells that have been inactive a minimum of 12 months and the responsible operator's Organizational Report (Form P-5) has been delinquent for greater than 12 months. Operators desiring to take over these wells must have an active Organization Report (Form P-5) and, upon request, provide a good faith claim to operate the wells.
Procedure for Taking Over An Orphaned Well
Reimbursement to Surface Owners of Certain Costs Incurred for Plugging an Orphan Oil or Gas Well
An Orphan Well Query is available to search orphan wells by Well Type, District, County, Field, Operator and API Number.
Access the Orphan Well Query and other Oil and Gas data.
An Excel version of the entire list of orphan wells for the current month is available for a download as a zip file.
This page was last updated on: Friday, September 13, 2024

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tahanson43206 · 2024-09-16 18:55:16

The two competing concepts at work in this topic are:

1) Simple compression of gas in the existing iron well pipe, including installation of a blowout cap at the bottom, and suitable equipment at the top to perform compression and recovery operations.

2) A salt storage system carefully designed to avoid destroying the iron pipe.

The salt storage concept has a lot going for it, but capital investment will be substantial.

The investor must find a salt that will not destroy the iron wall of the well, and purchase enough tons of this material to fill the space between the inside wall of the well and the walls of the loop of pipe that is to carry a fluid to heat the salt, and then recover energy from the salt.

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tahanson43206 · 2024-09-16 20:07:07

The text below is from the Texas web site where orphan oil well are listed....

The text makes clear that the agency involved is looking for operators who will cover all the costs related to the previous operation, and be able to assure the agency that the intention is to operate the well, ** and ** to cap it properly when the well is no longer useful.

Procedure for Taking Over an Orphan Well
Definition of Orphan Well
Orphaned wells are inactive, non-compliant wells that have been inactive a minimum of 12 months and the responsible operator's Organizational Report (Form P-5) has been delinquent for greater than 12 months. Operators desiring to take over these wells must have an active Organization Report and, upon request, provide a good faith claim to operate the wells.
Requirements For Taking Over an Orphan Well
The acquiring operator must have an Active P-5.
The acquiring operator cannot have outstanding final orders ("639").
The acquiring operator must be a "bonded operator" (Opt 1 or 2 financial assurance in the form of a performance bond, letter of credit, or cash deposit).
The acquiring operator must have sufficient financial assurance to cover the acquisition, along with all currently operated wells.
Any Form P-4, Producer's Transportation Authority and Certificate of Compliance holds placed on the well(s) by the Commission for non-compliance must be addressed with the appropriate Commission section (Field Operations, Enforcement or Well Plugging) prior to the transfer.
The acquiring operator must have (and may be required to provide proof of) a good-faith claim to operate the well(s).
The appropriate forms to transfer the well(s) to the acquiring operator must be filed with and approved by the Commission.
Two signature Form P-4s - When the current delinquent operator’s signature can be obtained, a Form P-4 with signatures of the current operator and the acquiring operator may be filed.
Single signature Form P-4s - When a signature cannot be obtained from the current delinquent operator, a Form P-4 may be filed with only the acquiring operator’s signature, but the acquiring operator must also provide a letter explaining why the prior operator has not signed (e.g., he cannot be found after a diligent search or he refuses to sign) and documentation establishing that the acquiring operator has at least a good-faith claim to the right to operate the wells(s).
Oil lease subdivision - If the acquiring operator is only taking over certain oil wells on an existing lease and not the entire oil lease, in addition Form P-4 filing requirements, the acquiring operator must file a Form P-6, Request for Permission to Consolidate/Subdivide Leases, before and after plats outlining the configuration of the lease, and a statement that no overproduction exists on the lease.
Good faith claim to operate - For all single signature Form P-4s and for other Form P-4 transfers when requested by the Commission, proof of good faith claim to operate the wells must be filed with the Commission.
Plugging & Compliance Responsibility
Any operator who successfully acquires an orphaned well, acknowledges responsibility for the regulatory compliance of the wells they are acquiring and for the proper plugging of the well(s) pursuant to 16 Texas Administrative Code §3.14 (Statewide Rule 14) through their signature on the Form P-4. Additionally, the acquiring operator assumes responsibility for the physical operation and control of the wells, and acknowledges that they will remain designated as the responsible operator of record until a new operator designation is approved by the Commission.
Contact Information
For questions related to:
Form P-5 or Financial Assurance contact the P-5 Section at 512-463-6772
Form P-4 or Form P-6 Subdivisions contact the Proration Section at 512-463-6975
Good Faith Claim to Operate Requirement contact the Office of General Counsel at 512-463-6848
SB639 Holds or Enforcement Holds contact the Enforcement Section at 512-463-6762
Field Operations, State Plugging Holds or Orphan Well List contact the Field Operations Section at 512-463-6830

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tahanson43206 · 2024-09-17 13:57:37

And here is a message from FriendOfQuark1 who lives in Texas...

I had asked about the ability of oil wells to withstand pressure, and the modern ones appear to have some ability along those lines.

It depends on the type of well and the type of formation. I don't think you'd get enough pressure to burst the liners, it would be the pay zone that would fracture first. Imagine if wells were fracked with highly compressed air instead of water for example. The oldest wells of the simple straw straight type have all be cemented closed and can't be use. A few new wells of this type still get drilled. Many of them are "in the chalk" however and the formation gets treated with thousands of gallons of strong acid. This formation might tend to be friable after the oil and gas have been removed.
The newest hydraulic fractured wells, can certainly take a quarter million PSI of pressure without bursting the liners (they use pressures that high to frack the shale as normal operating procedure now). But these depleted wells tend to be held in reserve. (most of them are actually still technically producing as "stripper wells"). That is, they produce less than 50 barrels a day and sometimes can be operated at a trickle of as little as 2 barrels a day just trickling from the formation (submersible pump technology made a huge leap forward shortly after the turn of the millenium.) They can generally be fracked a second and even third time if market conditions are right. They are basically being held in case of a major global oil shock where the US can no longer import foreign oil but still wants to export finished and semi finished chemical products and fuels.
That is, I don't think anyone who has the rights to such wells will let you have them at a price point that makes your idea economically viable. You might be able to if you had big money place stalking horse bids on the wells when they have been fracked enough times they are no longer worth the trouble and implement this a decade from now? They would be 'cheap' at this point as they are an environmental liability and need to be cemented. All of this brings up thorny legal issues. Say you are in the West Texas Permian basin, who owns the "air compression rights"? I assume the railroad commission would consider this part of the mineral rights. How much do you have to pay in royalties, and to who? How is the deal structured? How do you insure against liability?

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tahanson43206 · 2024-10-04 08:09:53

This post is inspired by another reminder from Calliban that geothermal energy in some locations in the crust of the Earth is not automatically renewed, due to poor thermal conductivity of material in the crust where water is not present.

The flip side of the observation is the potential value of a geothermal location as a storage location for thermal energy produced by renewable resources on the surface. If energy is added to the underground store, then it can be drawn upon during winter, without depleting the naturally supplied thermal energy.

Related observation:

Regardless of the poor thermal conductivity of material in the crust, not mediated by water, there is clearly ** some ** thermal conductivity, which provides the temperatures found there. An option is to simply draw from the location at the rate it can be naturally replenished.

The supply of thermal energy from the core of the Earth is inexhaustible. The observation of Calliban appears to be that it takes a long time for thermal energy from the core to percolate through the crust, and the poor thermal conductivity may explain volcanoes, which are natural responses to unwanted restraints.

If humans were to desire to prevent volcanoes, it would seem (to me at least) prudent to draw off excess thermal energy from the core where a volcano would otherwise occur.

A prime location for such an energy harvesting system is beneath the massive volcano threat in the Western US.

(th)

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#1 2024-09-15 10:25:19

Geothermal Storage of Renewable Thermal Energy

#2 2024-09-15 10:26:22

Re: Geothermal Storage of Renewable Thermal Energy

#3 2024-09-16 18:10:02

Re: Geothermal Storage of Renewable Thermal Energy

#4 2024-09-16 18:16:55

Re: Geothermal Storage of Renewable Thermal Energy

#5 2024-09-16 18:50:05

Re: Geothermal Storage of Renewable Thermal Energy

#6 2024-09-16 18:55:16

Re: Geothermal Storage of Renewable Thermal Energy

#7 2024-09-16 20:07:07

Re: Geothermal Storage of Renewable Thermal Energy

#8 2024-09-17 13:57:37

Re: Geothermal Storage of Renewable Thermal Energy

#9 2024-10-04 08:09:53

Re: Geothermal Storage of Renewable Thermal Energy

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