Hill Sphere and Orphan Shells (And Bubble Worlds).

Void · 2024-07-04 11:52:42

Working here I felt guilty as I sort of intervened between Terraformer and Calliban. I do not want to further interfere with what they were doing.

So, with permission, I will base this topic on this post from there: https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 95#p224895

That post in that topic being #181.

I guess I will determine the shells and how they may be different from other previous concepts of shells for worlds. Perhaps I will also receive corrections and that will be just fine.

Done

Changed title to "Hill Sphere and Orphan Shells (And Bubble Worlds)" from "Hill Sphere and Orphan Shells". 7/8/2024.

Last edited by Void (2024-07-08 21:02:49)

Void · 2024-07-04 12:28:21

A "Hill Shell" would perhaps be an "Exoshell" that may approximate the proportions of a hill sphere of gravitational influence around a material object or world.

An "Orphan Shell would be a shell without a strongly defined gravitational field which would be centered to it. Perhaps no rocky or icy world inside of it.

These both are sort of on the way to a "Dyson Sphere" Dyson elements in the form of a sphere.

An "Exoshell" might hold an internal air pressure approximately like that of a worlds "Exosphere", but maybe trying to have a somewhat greater density. An objective might be to accumulate molecules from the solar wind at a rate faster than or equal to the losses to the universe of gas molecules.

And you may have subshells within an "Exoshell". Any gasses leaking from them may perhaps be recoverable from the contents of the Exoshell.

The sunward face of an "Exoshell" may be constructed with characteristics like Frenzel Lense, to focus sunlight to a concentration area inside of the Exoshell. Perhaps to the surface of a subshell, or even to a world held within. The sunward side of the Exoshell may be leaky to the solar wind to allow it in, the leeward side may be a blockage in nature to avoid the loss of gas molecules.

It could be that dust with excess Oxidation may be presented to captured Hydrogen to produce molecules containing Oxygen and Hydrogen. Hydroxyl or water, perhaps.

The next item to accumulate could be Helium. And then there are other trace gasses, where Nitrogen and Carbon are of some interest.

There is some hope that such a shell might be an electric generator as the (+) molecules trapped within, and then (-) electrons on the wake side away from the sun, perhaps a method to produce power with a current flow and voltage differential may be possible. No promises, I am not sure that can work or exactly how to do it.

While the idea was originally attached to a topic about Ceres, I have an interest in Vesta at this time.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-07-04 12:40:02)

Void · 2024-07-05 09:47:31

I want to go slow with this topic. Here are materials from Isaac Arthur that may be considered some sort of cousins to this topic I am trying to develop.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yjwtdE7GWmA
Quote:

Megastructures: Hollow Earth
Isaac Arthur
786K subscribers

Of course I am closer to trying to get a set of nested shells, where I hope to stepwise become harmonious with the environment of space, hoping to gain more from it by those methods.

Here then is a "Orphan Shell" without a world within and without internal nested subshells:

I think I understand what the stresses would be, but correct me if I am wrong. In the form of dyslexia, I often have trouble with discerning which is correct the right or left hand of a concept.

I think that such a shell could be built with enough strength to tolerate the stresses that may pull an object apart, provided it is not too close to the object it orbits.

This could then be an Exoshell that could contain other nested shells and/or an actual small world at it's core.

Using optics, I would hope to be able to create a focus in the interior which might impinge on a nested shell or small worlds in the interior.

Also, I hope to be able to absorb the solar wind with it and yet keep the internal contents of gas molecules from being depleted by leakage to space.

Solar methods of power could be included, and I hope also a method to extract electric power from the inertia of the solar wind. Possibility includes electrostatics and also magnetically induced methods.

A tether system can either rise in a magnetic field by consuming electrical power or generate electric power by descending deeper into a magnetic field.

But a shell will also have qualities of a solar sail. The different surfaces may allow sailing. I am still thinking this through. It may have offset sails of materials or magnetic fields. to influence Orbit or spin of the shell. For the moment I think of a shell that rotates only once per year as it orbits the sun, but other spins may be investigated later on.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-07-05 10:10:54)

Void · 2024-07-05 13:05:56

Here I will try to develop things more:

Two methods of sailing may be on Photons from the sun, and also using the solar wind.

For the Sail and Tether, on the left side, you might use the Photon wind to lift the assembly to a higher orbit in the Earth's magnetic field. And then you could use the tether to generate electricity, and also then lower the assembly in the Earth's magnetic field.

On the right hand side a cigar shaped Semi-Sphere, has a pendulum which may tilt it relative to the flow of either or both the suns photon wind and/or solar wind. The tethers may or may not be embedded in the cigar shaped shell frame.

The magnetic field of the solar wind is different than the magnetic field of the Earth, as it spirals out, so I am not entirely sure I yet understand the proper methods though. But an objective is to control spin to a one-year spin and to control orbit to what is possible and desired.

Power generation from the inertia of the solar wind and photon wind is a desire.

Beyond that it may be desired to capture the solar wind into the shell. So then methods for that are needed such as stomata. As the solar wind may tend to pile up on the windward side, if stomata might be provided then capture of molecules may be facilitated by providing stomata for it to enter the shell.

Manipulations of electrical charge may be useful, but also I consider the use of a pumping method as well.

They might be a bit like this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diffusion_pump
Quote:

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Six inch oil diffusion pump.
Ulvac oil diffusion pump cutaway
Diffusion pumps use a high speed jet of vapor to direct gas molecules in the pump throat down into the bottom of the pump and out the exhaust. They were the first type of high vacuum pumps operating in the regime of free molecular flow, where the movement of the gas molecules can be better understood as diffusion than by conventional fluid dynamics. Invented in 1915 by Wolfgang Gaede, he named it a diffusion pump since his design was based on the finding that gas cannot diffuse against the vapor stream, but will be carried with it to the exhaust.[1] However, the principle of operation might be more precisely described as gas-jet pump, since diffusion also plays a role in other types of high vacuum pumps. In modern textbooks, the diffusion pump is categorized as a momentum transfer pump.

I am thinking of a jet of Helium molecules to perhaps be emitted from an electric rocket engine to entrain the solar wind and escort it into the shell though stomata.

I think that the solar wind is about 92% Hydrogen (+) ions.
And the other 8% is mostly Helium.
And some other minority elements.

Internal Service Error is being a jerk, so I have to keyboard things in an unusual fashion.

The solar wind being pushed into the shell, it may be that the Hydrogen (+) ions might be made to react to dust of an Oxide of something. And of course the gasses have to be electrically made neutral.

The resulting water vapor and also Helium and other trace gasses might then be pressurized with a Helium version of a diffusion pump method, I think.

That is quite a bit for now.

I think next, I will think about a "Hill Sphere" shell, around an asteroid, perhaps Vesta.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-07-05 13:30:11)

Void · 2024-07-05 15:10:54

So, then I want to consider Vesta. Ceres, may be prone to flooding with water, and the shells may be able to make water from the solar wind and maybe eve3n capture a bit of Nitrogen, so I want to consider Vesta.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/4_Vesta

Vesta seems to have Carbonaceous materials scattered on much of its surface.
https://www.space.com/18299-asteroid-ve … pacts.html
Quote:

The bright surface of Vesta – an asteroid so huge that some researchers consider it a dwarf planet or protoplanet – is peppered with carbon materials that are likely from "dark" asteroids that gently hit the surface, according to a new study.

Here is an article about asteroidal water: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asteroidal_water
https://www.nasa.gov/solar-system/gulli … zed-flows/
Quote:

4 MIN READ
Gullies on Vesta Suggest Past Water-Mobilized Flows

So, I am guessing that there might still be pockets of ice and seams of ice buried very deep. And the regolith may have generated some water also from the solar wind.

The idea of digging all the way down to the core of Vesta, may seem out of reach, but consider if you started making hollows in the Crust and Mantle of Vesta, over time you would reduce the amount of overburden on the core and so also change the gravity field.

Suppose you made shells around Vesta. Just for fun, imagine one the size of the Earth. Such a shell could intercept a whole lot of sunlight, even at the distance from the sun at Vesta.

Eventually it might be possible to hollow out the core of Vesta and make a place for humans there as well.

The asteroid/Dwarf Planet being volcanic, various minerals may be present, including copper, in concentrated form.

Uranium and Thorium might also be produced.

So, maybe this is a way forward for the human race.

Here is Isaac Arthur again:

I want to go slow with this topic. Here are materials from Isaac Arthur that may be considered some sort of cousins to this topic I am trying to develop.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yjwtdE7GWmA
Quote:

Megastructures: Hollow Earth
Isaac Arthur
786K subscribers

Last edited by Void (2024-07-05 15:32:30)

Void · 2024-07-05 16:38:30

So, then the hope would be to have an Exoshell, which will be dominantly filled with Helium and Hydrogen with traces of other gasses. And you might also add some CO2 as it is much heavier.

A Exosphere has molecules that bounce off of the surface of a world or lower more dense layers of atmosphere.

But, it you have a shell that it may also bounce off of, then there is hope that the shell could tend to use the bouncing molecules to keep the shell centered over the more inner shell or a world like Vesta. Even with a small gravity however, the air should thicken in the "Down" directions, this effect would be more pronounced. Particularly a CO2 layer under a Helium/Hydrogen layer may function well for that.

But magnetic effects may be used as well to position the Exoshell. If necessary it may be possible to mechanically link the poles of a world like Vesta to the spin poles of a shell.

Actually if you have a continuous feed of Hydrogen, Helium, and trace molecules being captured from the solar wind, then you might create higher molecule densities than typical for an Exosphere.

The Exoshell may have means to convey light into the next shell. And the other shells may be similar. Each nested shell may allow for a higher air pressure.

So, I think that Vesta could become attractive, but you might need to import Nitrogen. That may not be beyond reach, but time will talk about that.

If the Exoshell can be kept from collapsing in the gravitational situation, then it might be as big as the Earth, and so intercept a great deal of sunshine.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-07-05 16:47:44)

Void · 2024-07-06 05:11:12

I suppose it might be time to "Come Up For Air".

So , a Shell-World Wiki: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shellworld

A sort of sanity checks perhaps.

I guess this quoted material sort of approximates what I am supposing could be possible

An inflated canopy holding high pressure air around an otherwise airless world to create a breathable atmosphere. The pressure of the contained air supports the weight of the shell. This type of structure could also be built on top of an existing smaller planet or asteroid, enabling it to support human-friendly atmosphere.[3][4][5]
Completely hollow shell worlds can also be created on a planetary or larger scale by contained gas alone, also called bubbleworlds, as long as the outward pressure from the contained gas balances the gravitational contraction of the entire structure, resulting in no net force on the shell. The scale is limited only by the mass of gas enclosed; the shell can be made of any mundane material. The shell can have an additional atmosphere on the outside.[1][6]

So they call "Orphan" Shells as "Bubble Worlds". I will try to shift to that terminology.

They do talk about nested shells:

A shellworld is any of several types of hypothetical megastructures:
A planet or a planetoid turned into series of concentric matryoshka doll-like layers supported by massive pillars.[1] A shellworld of this type features prominently in Iain M. Banks' novel Matter.

I visualize a Exoshell as on average being rather light weight, so that a tenuous internal atmosphere could help support it against any internal center of gravitation. For that certain sizes of asteroid might be better than others. I think that Vesta may not be too bit, but maybe it will be.

One alternative to a shell surrounding an Asteroid might be a L1 & L2 Bubbles World Scheme. In this case you might involve space elevators. As L1 & L2 are a bit unstable, active propulsive means of keeping the Bubble Worlds where they belonged in L1 & L2 would be needed. L1, I think would have the better solar power.

But you could have Geosynchronous Bubble Worlds in orbit of an asteroid like Vesta. This could allow for directly connected space elevators. A series of Bubble Worlds in Geosynchronous orbit could instead become a torus that would encompass the asteroid. So then, a Toroidal Bubble World.

So, I anticipate that at least some of the notions in this topic could have merit.

Done

For a huge scale, a Toroidal Bubble World that surrounded Planet Mercury or Venus could be interesting. But it might not be possible to build one so large as to completely occult a planet.

Geostationary Orbit being: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geostatio … 20rotation.
Quote:

For broader coverage of this topic, see Geosynchronous orbit.
Two geostationary satellites in the same orbit
A 5° × 6° view of a part of the geostationary belt, showing several geostationary satellites. Those with inclination 0° form a diagonal belt across the image; a few objects with small inclinations to the Equator are visible above this line. The satellites are pinpoint, while stars have created star trails due to Earth's rotation.
A geostationary orbit, also referred to as a geosynchronous equatorial orbit[a] (GEO), is a circular geosynchronous orbit 35,786 km (22,236 mi) in altitude above Earth's equator, 42,164 km (26,199 mi) in radius from Earth's center, and following the direction of Earth's rotation.

So, honestly really far beyond what humans might do any time soon.

Even Vesta might be an incredibly large task to do. But the payoff might be huge as well.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-07-06 05:38:32)

Void · 2024-07-08 21:05:38

Bubble Worlds, may have some compatibility to Callibans concept of an Ice world / Water world.

There seem to be maybe 4 typical types of worlds for materials for these.

Phoebe is thought to be undifferentiated, a mix of 50/50 ice/rock.

Many small outer moons may be differentiated and of rock with ice and perhaps water over that.

Some major asteroids are called Stony or Metal and have only a small amount of water.

Some Major Asteroids are partly differentiated and having ice/water/rock composition. Callisto and Ganymede may be of this type.

Currently I am very interested in asteroids of a type similar to Vesta.

A list of Exceptional Asteroids again: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_e … _asteroids
That includes a list with specs. for those asteroids.

I think Bubble Worlds could be built from a Stony or Metal asteroid and then moved to an icy major asteroid, to be filled with water in part. I would expect multiple shells for that.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-07-08 21:15:12)

Void · 2024-07-09 06:44:25

I have received a request elsewhere: https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 13#p225013
Quote:

tahanson43206
Moderator
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 18,034
Email
For Void re bubble worlds ....
If a traveler were to visit one of these, what would they see/experience?
1) What would the world look like from the outside?
2) How would access to the interior take place?
3) What would the interior look like?
4) Should the visitor remain inside the space craft during the visit?
(th)

The interest is appreciated.

It is fun for me to work at the edge of existing "
no·men·cla·ture":https://www.bing.com/search?q=Nomenclat … f3&pc=DCTS

A couple of times at least, I have visualized something and then named it and then discovered that someone(s) had already given it a name. I said "Orphan Shell" but then discovered the phrase "Bubble World" from other people already exists. Having a relatively standardized language can be important but can also be a prison for the potential of invention. Words can disguise a wordy person as authority, when in reality, sometimes the words only are a mimic of understanding. The mimics can at times be awarded authority which then makes them an impediment to the emergence of the new developments. They are in effect vampires, mimics are the "Living Dead Minds".

The phrase "Bubble World" as I understand it is a shell world with no major core mass, such as an asteroid. But there could be intermediate shell worlds, which are between that and a shell world around an existing or moved mass.

Moved Mass for a shell world could be "Overburden" or "Slag" materials, that may be come into existence during mining and industrial processes.

But let's start with a one layered bubble without any significant built or existing core. Vesta or our Moon could perhaps be source materials to build one. If we like we can choose a "Sphere" as the dominant form of shape. We could think of this as a skin around very little substance.

Let's think of one perhaps 50km in diameter, just for a start. Size is an option, and there could be multiple options that become attributes of a Bubble Shell. And option I might propose to give in addition to that would be simulated tidal locking to the sun, in the case of a sun orbit at least. You could also do an artificial tidal lock to the sun while in orbit of another object such as a planet or world.

So, we have a spherical epidermis, perhaps 50 km in diameter. It will be punctured repeatedly by objects of sufficient size. So, we will want mechanical "Repair Animals" to do patching. Think Bees, Wasps, Beavers, humanoid.

On the sunward side of the shell, we can have windows and power devices such as solar panels, heat engines, and radiators.

Internal to the shell, we may have a very thin atmosphere. Molecular flow level, like an Exosphere for a planet. A gas molecule does not tend to bounce off of another gas molecule, but off of a solid surface such as the interior of the shell and will not leave though a hole unless its trajectory intercepts that hole. Gasses leaked or pumped into the shell, may be cooled on the "Dark" side of the shell. For some molecules condensation may be possible.

The shell may also be impacted by the solar wind if it is exposed to the solar wind. This may pile up on the windward side, be reflected and then flow around the object. But I would want to pump it into the insides of the shell.

My hope is to use a "Helium" electric rocket to serve as the motor for a vacuum pump which could push the solar wind
impacting and pooled up plasma into the interior of the shell though "Stomata". Oxides in the interior of the shell may be used to react with the Plasma. Particularly with the Hydrogen. I suggest trying manufactured Ozone. The results them may be condensed as ice on the cold surfaces provided inside of the shell. The remainder would be mostly Helium. The Helium could be pumped to a compression using a Helium electric rocket motor pump method.

I need some rest, so I will say that things could be nested inside of the shell, including habitats, and tanks of water as option. The shell itself could have "Trains" on it to give transportation from point to point.

So, you get the idea, a shell could be just a Bubble World, but then you could put the waste materials from mining a world inside of it to make habitats and tanks of water and so on.

Rest time.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-07-09 13:59:39)

Void · 2024-07-09 10:08:06

We know more about some worlds, more than about other worlds.

Ceres and Vesta are some of the "More" worlds.

Ceres looks like it may have come from the outer solar system, and that for a time, it may have had oceans on it. That water may have evaporated away, but still it appears to have lots of water left.

Vesta was thought to be very dry, and it may be. But there may be frozen cryovolcanic history there, I think. That is, if it had water, and the volcanism died down water volcanism may have continued for a bit of time so the remnants of that may exist as seams in the rocks that run deep. No proof of that, but it may be possible. Also, comets may have deposited ice as well. As I have previously mentioned, it appears to have carbonaceous dust on it which may contain Hydrogen, Nitrogen, and Carbon. Ice deep down could contain some Ammonia, which of course could yield Nitrogen.

16 Psyche is interesting, for the presumed heavy metals, but Vesta may have a broader distribution of materials useful to build in space. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/16_Psyche

For the moment, I am presuming that for Vesta if native Nitrogen is not present it could be imported, perhaps from Ceres. I am hoping that eventually Vesta could be surrounded by a very large shell that may encompass the entire Hill Sphere of Vesta more or less. But I don't know yet what is sensible and possible for that.

So, it may be possible to make a small Bubble World to be in geosynchronous orbit of Vesta as a start. Then to go to a Toroidal shell around the geosynchronous area of Vests orbits. Then perhaps from there to build a Hill shell if possible.

Bubble Worlds for Vesta could also be in the L1 or L2 areas as well. L1 seems to be the more sensible place.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lagrange_point
Image Quote:

So, a big question may be, is it easier to build Bubble Worlds from the materials of our Moon, or some asteroid, like Vesta.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-07-09 10:25:18)

Void · 2024-07-10 08:19:25

Just one possible version of a Bubble World:

Elon Musk has some ideas that seem to have merit.

He has recently seemed to mention Extinctionism vs. Expansionism.

I do approve of good Stewardship of things that humans may have power over.

Dr. Zubrin has spoken of "The Merchants of Doom".

Coffee.

I will say, that I feel we should question sources of opinion that try to insinuate that there is a moral issue against expansionism. Who appointed them to own our choices? The answer is nobody who may matter is likely to have.

This is just a little like sexual shaming. Such may be strongly distributed by those who have a selfish desire to always be the receivers of what is desired. When possible, such people will try to interfere with the procreation of others, and frame it as public morality. While morality structure is needed, be careful about the motivations of those who judge.

In a like manner, those who judge against expansionism, may be doing so from selfish motives such as harnessing human energy to give them masters favors. In other words they don't want "Little House on the Prairie", they want plantations. They want you to bring them "Hot Toddies", and they want to own you and whatever your efforts are as their own.

So, when possible, shed them and their judgements.

Done

The diagram suggests what could be done with waste materials such as water and regolith, while mining alien worlds.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-07-10 08:34:56)

Void · 2024-07-10 09:28:27

I did not intend to go in this direction but did in the last post: https://www.bing.com/videos/riverview/r … &FORM=VIRE Quote:

She studied extreme psychopaths. Here’s what it taught her about human nature | Abigail Marsh
YouTube
Big Think
362.6K views
2 weeks ago

I guess I am comfortable with the idea of a spectrum. I would usually be trying to detect a problem with the Extinctionists, but I suppose the Expansionist side also should be examined.

Extinctionis Environmentalism is a thing that may need to be detected, so as to do a purer form of Environmentalism.

Environmentalism compatible with humans.

The religious factors of "Extinctionis Environmentalism". It basically is the notion of original sin, you are judged to be bad simply because you are human, and you need to give reparations to authority therefore. You must pay for your sins, and of course you need to pay those payments to a proclaimed authority(s). Payments can be acceptance of poverty in the name of repentance.

But if you give your allegiance to authority, is this authority from the God of love, or from "Mans Accuser"?

Be careful who you will accept as the keystone of your life.

https://www.gotquestions.org/Satan-accuser.html

I say this all for the idea that Bubble World technology may allow a great expansion of human resources from raw materials of the solar system. But many "Stay at homes" will only want to process your life as food for their satisfaction. Be careful to study their revealed intentions over time.

Bubble Worlds may become elements of a a partial Dyson Sphere over time. The means of the flesh life to be sure, but but to be alive is to have the potential to improve, I think.

Death is not much use for that as far as I can see. Being tined Samon or pork on someone's table is less than what I had hoped to be truthfully. But that may assume a greater importance than I disserve. But desires are more than that.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-07-10 09:59:34)

Void · 2024-07-10 11:12:53

This new version has solar extensions:

But in general human habitats and gardens could likely be hosted inside of the bubble shells.

There had been a concern about losing volatile materials to space to be swept away by the solar wind. This scheme seeks to actually accumulate some volatiles from the solar wind. Also to recover leaked materials from pressurized habitats that are to be inside of the shells.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-07-10 11:15:47)

Void · 2024-07-10 19:42:44

I have mentioned Vesta, Ceres, our Moon, and Callisto and Ganymede. But really Mars/Phobos/Deimos seem to me to be the place to initiate such technology.

Done

Void · 2024-07-11 09:11:51

Mar/Phobos/Deimos might be a good nursery to develop some sort of " Hill Sphere and Orphan Shells (And Bubble Worlds)."

But a precursor to that would likely involve lifter rockets like Starship and also space station, around the Earth.

A contender for an important factor, artificial gravity is "Vast Space": Hill Sphere and Orphan Shells (And Bubble Worlds).

If the world remains divided as it is now, we can expect a competitive mirrored similar action from a group likely including Russian and/or China. Probably they will eventually have the equivalent of Starship or a more advanced system if such ever shows up.

That last mention will excite the binary western peoples. Dealing with people who can only function like a primitive control system that is like a toy car that bumps into walls to discover what to do next, if sort of baked in, most of the time. My desire is to anticipate a better awareness of local reality so as have a higher level of process control. So, in general I expect that the wall bump people will be around like it or not. And it is important that they do not waste our time. Also, it is possible to trigger an immune response, if we do not behave wisely.

They may react in a troublesome way, if they develop a false reality. False realities are profitable sometimes for subgroups of the wall bump peoples.

So, it is not that I don't like our "Team(s)", it is more that I anticipate that technology from the "Others" may serve our interests as well as theirs over time.

The football team with cheerleaders' way of wall-Bump process control of society, is often a stupid waste of time.

As example, things that came from the Soviet Union were, Airlock methods, Grid fins, and Hot Staging. I think the USA also did some of that, perhaps Hot Staging.

So, I count that as useful to our interests in the long term.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-07-11 09:26:24)

Void · 2024-07-11 10:30:10

This is a valuable query: "Mars was as cold as iceland": General Result: https://www.bing.com/search?q=Mars+was+ … 6C&pc=U531

The climate, perhaps 1/2 billion years in from the formation of Mars is described as perhaps Iceland, or Labrador, and variable, even being like Antarctica. So, if we could return the planet to its former nature, with more geothermal heat, more Nitrogen, and maybe more water, it might become like subarctic, on the Equator, dependent also perhaps as a variable, on the axis tilt.

The ability to return Mars to this young nature is likely to be far too expensive relative to the payoff. In reality it is likely to be consider impossible actually.

Dealing with Mars would involve adaptations to what we have to settle for, and manipulations. Manipulations will involve surface manipulations and manipulations in and from orbits, for the most part.

Surface activities can involve avoidance of heat loss to space. This included Greenhouse Gasses, Domes and other structures, and "Tucking Heat". Greenhouse gasses could "Tuck Heat" if they could melt water. The water would tend to flow under ice and so tuck heat into the bodies of water created.

Manipulations "manipulations in and from orbits" could increase the energy budget for Mars, so then it is sensible to consider doing " Hill Sphere and Orphan Shells (And Bubble Worlds)" methods for that reason. Also, Phobos and Deimos could supply the bulk of materials for that, and what could not be had from Phobos and Deimos, might be possible to get from Mars itself.

So, developing the Mars surface and the orbits of Mars, at the same time make sense to me. It is not some stupid binary contest.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-07-11 10:50:20)

Void · 2024-07-11 11:51:19

And I think that space station technology in Earth orbit will likely adapt to Mars orbit: https://www.bing.com/videos/riverview/r … ORM=WRVORC
Quote:

This company is winning the race to create the first factory in space | Hard Reset
YouTube
Freethink
1.3K views
4 hours ago

It may be that materials from our Moon will be used to build things in orbit some time down the line, but I observe that Phobos and Deimos are already in orbit of Mars, not using futuristic technology.

Space Stations may eventually give way to huge Bubble Worlds. And some of those could orbit Mars and might share energy to Mars as part of their functions.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-07-11 11:54:59)

Void · 2024-07-11 20:24:33

There are some other things to consider, about the ability of refilling in LEO.
Hydrogen is one, with Nuclear Rockets.
Argon could be another, with Nuclear Electric Rockets.

I think that the two together could be effective in placing hardware in orbit of Mars. Such hardware could include means to build from raw materials of Phobos/Deimos/Mars.

I do understand the idea of a sort of Mars Direct with Starship, and I support it, but if the Earth is to have a series of platforms in orbit of Earth, a nuclear thermal boost and then a nuclear electric finish could be a good way to get hardware to Mars orbit that would allow for the construction of platforms around Mars.

Mars orbital platforms could likely send power down to Mars, to the nighttime and to the winters. This could be very important to keep things running around the clock. In that case to use fully the factory processes all the time as much as possible.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2024-07-11 20:32:02)

Void · 2024-07-12 08:23:06

I just encountered the idea of "Dark Comets". I think it would fit here, we will see if it is a true thing: https://www.space.com/earth-water-dark-comets-impacts

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/technolo … ngNewsSerp

A more scientific article: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/a … via%3Dihub

What I get from this is that even the inner asteroid belt may have some reservoirs of ice in rubble pile asteroids. I presume that this is fossil water from solar system formation.

I also read that .5% to 60% of Near-Earth Asteroids may have water ice in them. I would hope that an average number of 29% would turn out to be true. If .5%, then it is not very significant.

If this turns out to be true to any fair amount, then it might facilitate "Bubble World" methods to deal with NEO materials. And a Bubble World could have enough navigation that it could move from object to object, encountering icy and dry objects and consuming them.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-07-12 08:37:14)

Void · 2024-07-12 10:32:21

I have additionally been attracted to "Active Asteroids": https://www.bing.com/search?q=Active+As … 4B&pc=U531
Quote:

Global web icon
Wikipedia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Active_asteroid
Active asteroid - Wikipedia
Active asteroids are small Solar System bodies that have asteroid-like orbits but show comet-like visual characteristics. That is, they show a coma, tail, or other visual evidence of mass-loss (like a comet), but their orbits remain within Jupiter's orbit (like an asteroid). These bodies were originally designated main-belt … See more

I certainly do not understand how these may become "Dark Comets". Some notion of resonant orbits exists, and some notion also suggests outgassing.

I wonder with concern of being wrong, if an invisible coma of outgassing can push harder on one side of such an abject as the outgassed materials may expand even more from sunlight. The solar wind may push a tail to a shape, and perhaps that pushes a bit against the asteroid before the gasses are entirely divorced from the outgassing object.

If there is a process like that then for colder portions of the solar system, outgassing of other volatiles than water vapor might do a similar ting to bring small objects inward?

The list in the attached article, includes asteroids that may shed materials other than water vapor, and in some cases, this may be dust. But they are often Carbonaceous in nature it appears.

So, how many icy asteroids exist is not understood. But it seems implied that the closer in an asteroid is the deeper you would need to dig to get to ice.

But some of these asteroids may have Hydrogen bonded to minerals, I suspect.

Still, the merits of seeking to build Bubble Worlds from these materials seem favorable to me at this time.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-07-12 10:52:08)

Void · 2024-07-12 13:12:43

I will try not to present falsehoods. I know less about it than I want to.

But if there is a bias that sends small asteroids into the inner solar system, and if some of them have ice and perhaps Hydrated minerals and Carbon, then they could be regarded as a resource to build Bubble Worlds with.

I am curious about the electric fields around asteroids. If they are like Phobos then an electron cloud may exist behind them, as it is hard for the ions(+) to jump behind the asteroid. Perhaps here is some kind of electrical current flow associated with this and perhaps water vapor escaping from the asteroid may interact with it in some way, to propel the asteroid inward.

But I don't know that.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2024-07-12 13:17:48)

Void · 2024-07-13 20:32:20

Not that much going on at this site, so I guess this could go here or some other places.

https://ldpdl.engr.tamu.edu/combined-la … %20photons.
Quote:

Combined Laser and Particle Beams for Self-Guided Beamed Propulsion
Investigator: Hayden Morgan

Image Quote:
Quote:

FIGURE 1. COMPARISON OF CONSTITUENT PROPULSION ELEMENTS TO THE PROPOSED OVERLAPPED CONCEPT. SOURCE: [1]

I am sure that this is not exclusive to the idea of Bubble Worlds, but it could be helpful to them.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-07-13 20:37:52)

Void · 2024-07-13 21:02:16

Continuing with the materials of the just prior post: https://www.nasa.gov/general/pellet-bea … 15%20years.
Quote: davoyan_pelletbeampropulsion_2023.png?resize=2000,1247

Not being critical of it but they are aiming the stars, which is not wrong, but I am wondering if it can be adapted to trips of just a few AU, perhaps often between bubble worlds.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-07-13 21:05:28)

tahanson43206 · 2024-07-14 06:20:33

For Void ... thank you for the link in Post #23

The article at the end of the link contains a list of ongoing research projects of which you have cited one. The objective of the propulsion method you cited appears to be intended for Solar System propulsion as well as deep space missions.

(th)

Void · 2024-07-15 19:15:56

Found this article today. The abstract is relatively easy to understand, but basically it says that Phobos may or may not have water in its interior. But the good news is that it may have water under some conditions.

Digging deeper requires a mind further than mine can even pretend to reach. Still, it is interesting to try.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/a … 3523004955
Quote:

Highlights
•
We simulate the thermal and water evolution of Phobos over 4.3 billion years.
•
We explore various grain sizes, water contents, and water vapor adsorption effects.
•
Water vapor adsorption effects can preserve water on Phobos until today.
•
The surface water flux into space can reach 1 mg s−1 with 0.1 wt% initial water.
•
The combination of our results and the MMX mission may reveal the origin of Phobos.

Abstract
Phobos, one of the Martian moonlets, has been the focus of long-standing scientific investigation, particularly regarding its origin: whether it was formed by a giant impact or a captured asteroid. In this study, we investigate the long-term internal evolution of Phobos over 4.3 billion years using a 3-dimensional thermal diffusion and water transport model, named ASTRA. The model newly implements reflected visible light and infrared radiation from Mars, orbital evolution of Phobos, water vapor adsorption on rock grain surfaces, and suppressed permeability due to the surface dust layer in addition to the previous study, allowing us to simulate different grain sizes of 1, 10, 100, and 1000 μm, adsorption coefficients of 1 and 10 kg m−3, and initial water contents of 0.1, 1 or 10 wt%.
Our simulation results revealed that without the water vapor adsorption effect, the water inside Phobos would be lost over several billion years for an initial water content of 0.1 wt%. However, when water vapor adsorption was considered, scenarios emerge in which Phobos could retain water to the present day. In the case of a grain size of around 100 μm, Phobos could still continuously release water flux of 10−4–10−3 g s−1 for an initial water content of 0.1 wt%, and 10−2–1 g s−1 for an initial water content of >1 wt%. Furthermore, our research shows the possibility of subsurface condensed water ice in deep high latitude regions and the formation of a gas torus by escaping water-related molecules. If the future MMX mission can measure the water-related ions near the gas torus of Phobos with much >104 cm−2 s−1, the origin of Phobos is most likely the captured asteroid with an initial water content of >1%. For further detailed analysis, our results emphasize the importance of exploring surface soil parameters through soil sample return by the MMX mission.

I think that Starship and other heavy lifters may bring space station technology forward, and some of that could spill to Mars orbits. Then Phobos and Deimos and if necessary, Mars could supply materials to expand orbital infrastructure around Mars. It would be very helpful if water was on one or both of the moons, but not absolutely necessary. Hydrogen and Nitrogen could come from Mars if needed.

An expansion into Bubble Worlds around Mars could be supportive of and parallel in development time to settling the surface of Mars, and the two would be mutually and supportively assistive to each other.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-07-15 19:23:35)

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