Para Terra formation in Orbit, with orbital services.

Void · 2024-04-11 19:42:27

The image is a cut-away cross section diagram.

I am very interested in the hollow between radiators 'a'. I feel that habitats could be placed there and may be strongly protected from the space environment.

A synthetic gravity habitat or micro gravity habitat(s) could be in those gaps.

I am anticipating that in a vacuum infrared photons can escape through 'e' fairly well.

Rather than the boxy radiators I have shown, I would like a shape like a red blood cell.

From post #22: Quote:

I am considering the shape of a red blood cell, which is somewhat disk like and somewhat torus like.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_blood_cell
Image Quote:
Image Quote:
A torus with dual concave centered faces.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-04-12 10:57:31)

Void · 2024-04-12 10:57:01

I intend more a shape of a red blood cell, but it is what it is.

From post #22: Quote:

I am considering the shape of a red blood cell, which is somewhat disk like and somewhat torus like.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_blood_cell
Image Quote:
Image Quote:
A torus with dual concave centered faces.

Metabolism seems to be possible between -20 degC and perhaps a bit above 100 degC, but I would more prefer temperate temperatures in the radiator(s).

Water to fill these things could be available from Venus or Mars, by lifting Hydrogen to orbit, and combining that with Oxygen from a regolith.

In the case of Venus, the Oxygen might come from asteroid materials. In the case of Mars from Phobos and/or Deimos.

Starting in the asteroid belt water is rather easy to get, and of course water from moons and other objects of the outer solar system seem likely to be abundant.

If you really wanted to you could have a secondary radiator based on Methane or Ammonia, that would be bonded to the radiator above which is intended to be water filled.

OK, I have added a hot side to it. 'T' means turbine.

Anyway, just some notions. Perhaps someone else could do better. That would be good.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-04-12 11:09:19)

Void · 2024-04-13 15:33:39

In another topic, I have a post which discusses the use of a humanoid robot in water: https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 84#p221784

Index» Science, Technology, and Astronomy» Humanoid and other robots. Post #21.

It also discusses underwater farming on various worlds.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-04-13 15:35:17)

Void · 2024-04-16 04:40:11

Should be build hollow structures in Outerspace that have an inner space?
Should we then attach them to flat structures that can catch the sun?

I am thinking of places further out than Mars, and that the structures can include various materials, including ice and cellulose like materials.

A borg cube perhaps?
https://www.lego.com/en-us?ef_id=c489e6 … MB_GENERIC
Image Quote:

Actually, we could make a shape like a cardboard box, and then dock it to a giant flat piece of Cardboard.
I am trying to simulate mental images.

The flat plain could have one fact to the sun the other away from the sun. The box will dock on the leeward side of the Plain.

If you put a sunshield in front of the plain, on its sunward side then this structure could be close to the sun than the "Snow Line" in outer space.

The two structures could be in part made of ice, and things similar to wood. Certainly metals and glasses are allowed as well.

Inside of the cube would be relative protection, from radiation and many types of impactors.

Let's say we were building this out of Callisto. How big could the cube and plain be?

Build it out of Phoebe, maybe, or a centaur.
Phoebe: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoebe_(moon)
Image Quote:

So, while you were ripping Phoebe apart, sorting and sifting its materials, you would have this thing you were building.

You could get some sunlight on this flat plain object, you could attach concentrating mirrors to it that could be pointed at the sun. The light out that way would be ~1% that Earth gets.

While you were sorting and sifting I presume you would be able to get fissile materials. Fission energy then available.
If fusion is a thing you could sort out the heavy water for that.

And inside of the cube, the inner space you could have all sorts of habitats.

I recall heating that ships decks sometimes had wood, even if the deck was metal, because impacting fragments would be absorbed to some extent, I guess.

Your borg cube would be huge if you consumed all of Phoebe to make it. Perhaps you could send some to Titan to aerobrake, because Titan and Phobe orbit in opposite directions. Phoebe is retrograde.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-04-16 05:00:25)

Void · 2024-04-16 09:49:36

https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 00#p221900
(th) said:

tahanson43206
Moderator
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 17,008
Email
For Void re Borg Cube ...
Nice image!
it is a good fit for your new topic... it seems to me.
I'm hoping you'll pick up on the idea first generated by the Star Trek writers.
There might be more to the basic idea than just a neat image.
(th)

Thanks for the observation. Communication is assisted by using familiar visualizations. A cube shell, with internal "Organs", is a concept that I think many people can visualize, particularly if they have prior exposure to the notion of the "Borg" in Star Trek.

The concept of a shell without a naturally formed world within may have benefits. The environment inside such a shell may satisfy some life support needs making the idea of living inside of one more reasonable.

The interior of such a shell, may protect from radiation, and give a moderation to lighting and heating situations.
Such a shell may keep most outside objects out and inside objects from going out, unless humans manipulate an intended transfer Inner Space<>Outer Space.

Many substances such as ices and wood-like materials are less suitable for making complete life support, but they can be used in bulk to make an improved environment where objects within do not have to work as hard to bring full life support. In effect the ices and the cellulose/wood, perhaps being excess materials which might be tossed to a waste bin, can be used to make a useful structure.

There are some amusing things that could be done with the structure. I have supposed solar power, and fission power and even perhaps fusion power, but Phoebe as a cube could have tether elements in it or about it that could produce electricity by magnet drag with Saturn's magnetic field. Calliban and I have discussed this for Neptunes moon Triton. Like Phoebe, Triton is a retrograde object likely captured from the Kuiper belt. While Saturn rotates in a prograde direction Phoebe orbits in a retrograde direction. So many magnetic lines of force are cut. This power source could exploit both the spin of Saturn and the orbit of Phoebe. Eventually when the "Cube" got too close to Saturn you would have to stop consuming that energy, but it is a huge supply most likely. You would also want to miss colliding with a prograde moon when you were doing this. As I have mentioned Triton, it is possible to do a similar thing there as well, around Neptune, perhaps.

Pause.............

So, then I am eyeballing Triton as a significant target on the way outward in the solar system. I suppose solar might be tried at Neptune, but it requires some fair concern, that better options may exist. I suppose we hope Fusion. Maybe Fission, if indeed crashing comets vaporize their ices and release sand or dust like particles that could be mined out of the crust of an object like Titan.

Some sanity checks:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetosphere_of_Saturn
The concern is, what if Phoebe or Triton are not in their parent planets magnetic field. Good enough, if they are not they will pass though the magnetic tails, I think.

Then over time, drawn into a low orbit of the parent planet, their orbits will be more compatible with prograde objects.

Inverse to the situation of Titan, which has an atmosphere, where Phoebe materials may be aerobrake to Titan, Triton being retrograde it might be possible to aerobrake materials from prograde Neptune moons.

List of Neptune moons: https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_ … %27s_moons

Phoebe and Triton might be considered to be energy oasis's. We don't know if fusion or fission may be better in those locations, but inductive energy from relative motions will exist as a potential.

For this reason we may hope that planet 9/x may exist and have a magnetic field and some moons. Perhaps a black hole with moons/planets? Or it does not exist.

It would be interesting to work with Pluto and Charon. No energy oasis that way for them, but if Fusion is a real thing then perhaps that.

The various energy methods will not be equally useful on all worlds. Some may benefit to use something that is not considered economically competitive on the Earth.

This is one reason we should stimulate research in many energy sources.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-04-16 10:39:34)

Void · 2024-04-19 18:59:40

From: "Index» Terraformation» The Moon"

Posts #67 to #71 : https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 44#p221844

I think that I can have a better place here to understand what this could lead to:

If I understand what is practical and possible, the above can be of good uses. It is likely not yet the best version of what I could be, but I see how it could be of good use.

It seems true to me that starting with Mars/Phobos/Deimos, this type of ship could be built, and sent off to achieve desirable things. I think that in relatively short order it would also make sense to set up in the asteroid belt to do this as well.

It may be that at about 2.0 AU, in the asteroid belt, the materials to do this may exist. If not, then you just go further out, and they are likely to exist.

These things then could be shipping themselves to the inner solar system, to places where they would have great value. I have already mentioned the Earth/Moon.

I have also looked at the terrestrial crossing asteroids. One method to deal with asteroids that may be a threat to an inhabited world, is to take control of them. Having a mixture of needed materials would facilitate that.

Here is a list of Mars associated asteroids: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_M … or_planets
Here is a list of Earth associated asteroids: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_E … _asteroids
Here is a list of Venus associated asteroids: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_V … or_planets
Here is a list of Mercury associated asteroids: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_M … or_planets

Generally, these are stony asteroids. They may have a small amount of water in their regolith, perhaps implanted by the solar wind, but sending a package of materials including Carbon, Hydrogen, and perhaps some other items, could be very helpful for crews of humans and robots to set up shop in association with such asteroids.

This could give the ability to control the asteroids, if they are considered a hazard, or to appropriate them to a purpose if they seem useful for such a purpose.

Cycling spaceships are a possible option.

Also, I think it may be possible to capture materials from these asteroids to planets with atmospheres, in particular I have my eye on Venus for that.

Venus could become a source of organic chemicals such as Carbon, Nitrogen, even Hydrogen, presuming that the Hydrogen in the clouds is renewable, perhaps coming from the interior of the planet or the solar wind. If that is achieved, then Venus could be a source of these chemicals to deliver to the Earth/Moon, and anything outward from Venus. But this source from Venus, would be sent with the solar wind and photons being rather assistive for propulsions.

So, then probably the whole solar system opened up, at least out to Saturn.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-04-19 19:28:59)

Void · 2024-04-20 07:26:17

This may help in developing methods to extract raw materials from Venus: https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 99#p222099

Atmospheric Mining: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atmospheric_mining

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-04-20 07:26:48)

Void · 2024-04-20 09:03:53

At the Martian end of things, I really think that it could be likely that SpaceX will develop a Starship only suitable for the Martian environment.

But probably it will be possible to launch it from the surface of the Earth.

The ship would be crafted to suit transits Mars Orbits<>Mars Surface.

The Earth will probably have a lot of Space Stations, so then make some Space Stations for Mars as well and fortify them with materials from Mars/Phobos/Deimos.

Although it may not be the best method for human transfers Earth/Moon<>Mars/Phobos/Deimos, Ballistic Capture to Mars seems to me to be suitable for bulk transfers such as Starships. As I have said elsewhere, I think a nuclear-electric method could be good for that. The Starships could travel without Methane or Oxygen to fuss about. I think they would not need a header tank system therefore, so you can get rid of that dry mass and cost.

I think that the propellant methods could involve Photos. Of course, we would like there to be ice in one or more of the moons, and Carbon.
It could be that there is a Hydrogen cloud inside of Phobos, if no ice.

But if we presume that Photos is only Oxidized Metals and silicates, then I think a possible trick would be to have the Starships bring Methane only up from Mars as a cargo. Then using solar heat react that with Phobos regolith to pull Oxygen from it and to render it more magnetic in nature. An alternative might be Metalysis where you inject Methane. My expectation is that this would yield water and CO2, and Metals and Silicon. If so then you can reuse the water and CO2, to recreate Methane, and Oxygen.

A Bacterial method might also be tried. Also, other organic materials might be substituted for the Methane.

So, a Starship would refill in orbit of Mars and also perhaps on the surface as well.

Then over time develop the method to build something like this to send back to the Earth/Moon or terrestrial crossing asteroids:

And then over time expand into the asteroid belt and Venus.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-04-20 09:28:23)

Void · 2024-04-21 08:53:44

I think one of the worst mistakes that space fans have made is to fall for the Mars vs. Moon ploy. But there does not seem to be a need to worry about that too much longer, as the NASA-Artimus and SpaceX & Other collaboration seems to have fixed that problem, at least for now.

There could be return to the old milking machine that sort of went on for 50 years after the Moon landings, but finally that process seems to have allowed an accumulation of sufficient skills to hope to extend out in the solar system.

The more I look at it the more sense it makes to "Para Terraform" much, and eventually all of the solar system.

The materials of the solar system are segregated, which is good if you can selectively move some of the materials about in a sort of commerce.

For this the sun is on power source in many ways. Nuclear of various sorts can also assist.

So, we have an Earth Loop of commerce, which is getting out a little bit into space now. It is likely to grow very fast with space stations.

We think that there may be small amounts of organic chemicals at the poles of the Moon, and perhaps also some Argon. But that is not yet proven absolutely. If so, then we could hope to create a Moon loop of commerce. But really it seems most likely that we want to annex the Moon loop to the Earth loop as soon as possible. Robots will likely make that more possible. As I understand it SpaceX wants to make a base, and they think that they could bring in water from Earth if necessary.

Technically it would make sense to bring in Methane instead, because you could always react Methan with Moon Oxygen and get water and CO2. Methane is a bit harder to handle, but it does not carry the dead weight of Oxygen in the molecules. And of course, it is a fuel for rockets or other devices. The ISS shows that water can be recycled fairly well. I think that on the Moon even tighter recycling could happen if necessary or economic.

And so then it might be that Mars/Phobos/Deimos could be pulled into the loop of commerce. Ideally Phobos and Deimos would have Hydrogen and Carbon to access, but if not then Mars can provide one or both of those.

From there if that is accomplished, expansion to the dry worlds might occur. Dry worlds could be the asteroids that wander past the terrestrial planets, and also more Hydrocarbons and water could go to the Moon.

Then expand to Venus, the orbits of if and the clouds of it. It may very well be possible that Venus can supply Hydrocarbons manufactured, and also water, and also Nitrogen.

From there deep into the entire asteroid belt and perhaps to Callisto and Ganymede.

And of course from there the Saturn system.

This is simply an example:
My vision of it was that a pump would pull water vapor off of the ice and compress it to be processed into rocket fuel. Then the fuel to be burned, so that an inward spiral would be possible. Other schemes might work as well or better.

But the idea is to keep the dry mass down and the cargo mass up. The sunshine will last for billions of years, so could makes sense for this sort of thing maybe out to 3 au. Going further out though you might want a nuclear booster.

We might even think about using nuclear detonations as in the Orion Drive to get the payload kicked into an orbit where the propulsion system would end up in better sunlight.

But I realize that that cannot happen yet, as we have to improve the planetary culture(s).

But those options may exist in the future.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2024-04-21 09:16:32)

Void · 2024-04-21 13:05:08

I don't have professional credentials, so I guess I will put this here.

I have been thinking about hybrids of Starship and Jetson. Jetson is a nuclear electric concept I have read about.

Jetson: https://www.space.com/space-nuclear-pow … n-contract
Quote:

JETSON aims to launch a fission reactor that will be started up once in space. The reactor will generate heat, which is then transferred to Stirling power converters to produce electricity. This can then be used to power spacecraft payloads or electric thrusters for propulsion.

Here is the thing I am thinking of. If you could hybrid Starship and Jetson somehow, maybe, possibly.

The ship would fly to orbit.
Purge the main Oxygen and Methane tanks.
Be refilled with an electric rocket propellant like Argon.
Have header tanks that will have Oxygen and Methane to land on Mars.
Activate a nuclear reactor in the cargo hold.
Fly to Mars, using spiral method, and possibly using Ballistic Capture if that is useful.
Probably the electric rocket would be in the cargo hold as well. Perhaps an alligator mouth for the cargo hold.
The Cargo compartment may have radiator means in it.
The Ship then lands to Mars using the header tanks.
The main tanks are purged of electric rocket propellant.
The system operates with the nuclear power to cook CO and O2 from the Martian atmosphere.
The main and perhaps header Oxygen tanks are refilled with Oxygen
The Main and Header tanks are filled with CO.

Granted lots of problems with keeping the Oxygen and CO from boiloff.
And there are other problems.

But if you could pull it off you would have a ship or ships, filled with resources before any humans had landed.
And the Nuclear reactor would still be functional to generate electricity, I would hope.

And you got this using very efficient means, and also you don't have to wait for the standard 22 month? window.
The total bulk of propellant is less.
You can generally launch these when you want.
And these also could land hardware.

This would be sort of a start-up method.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2024-04-21 13:25:36)

Calliban · 2024-04-22 07:08:27

In the short to medium term, we are going to need orbital facilities that can convert discharged effluents from interplanetary vessels and orbiting space stations, back into food, water and oxygen. Every kg of food that can be grown in space from materials already in space, is a kg that we don't have to use Starship to launch from Earth. This could be done using space based greenhouse agriculture, given that sunlight is abundant. It represents a near term opportunity for Paraterraforming that actually provides real cash returns to whoever can master it.

Plants do need some gravity. They tend to respirate at night, so do require darkness. But they don't care for aesthetics and are not bothered by corriolis forces. So the design of an orbiting greenhouse will be different to what we might imagine humans wanting to live in. We want a compact greenhouse that can be launched as a single Starship payload if possible. The large ship will dock with it and take on food, water and oxygen, whilst offloading effluents.

Void · 2024-04-22 09:28:55

I consider the materials of your post containable in a larger architecture. The speed at which new skills are arriving on the scene, can permit or encourage it.

I have tried to stay away from the Large Ship concept, as there is plenty of room for me to work around that. In my developing idea of para terraforming the solar system, certain notions have emerged. So, I think that it is proper to express them.

While the ship so far conceived may well have a place, in addition I have my own notions just now. This would be for an immigrant path. I think for immigration to the USA from Europe, significant amounts of the immigrants returned to Europe at times. We could hope for a greater retention. But a path back is needed.

But I want to explore one-way ships. For ships Earth/Moon>Mars, I have thought that it would be nice to be able to mass produce prefab modules to assemble into a ship. I will suppose that the assembled ship will get a Nuclear-Thermal rocket boost. Most of the prefab units would be assembled on the Moon from Lunar regolith. Perhaps some kind of chemical rocket could lift them to orbit and Nuclear-Electric would bring them up from a low Lunar orbit to an assembly point. These modules could be based on space stations to some degree. There would not be a heat shield. Ther would be a fast Nuclear boost followed by a Nuclear-Electric finish to the path to Mars. Ballistic Capture might be used for the completion to Mars, then the Nuclear-Electric would finalize the orbit desired.

I have just considered Aluminum powder on such a ship. It would be radiation shielding and could be reused over time in construction and possibly propulsion methods. Alice comes to mind and also a paste of Aluminum and LOX as propulsion methods.

Once the ship arrived at a Martian Moon, the bags of Aluminum powder would be replaced by bags of regolith, to provide radiation shielding, and to free up the Aluminum powder for reuse.

In the case of Alice, Oxygen could come from regolith of a moon, and perhaps Hydrogen from Mars itself.

The ship modules could stay in orbit as space station build-up. However, they might be brought down to the surface individually by a Starship.

Some modules might be assembled into a return ship, but just a few. This return ship also might return Mars/Phobos/Deimos>Earth/Moon. But the radiation protection might be of things like paraffin and cellulose, possibly Methane. Argon can be gotten from Mars, so the return to Earth/Moon may be Nuclear-Electric finished. Possibly a booster would give the ship an initial kick towards an Earth destination.

Anyway, that is what I have so far for the Immigrant Path. The modules arriving to Earth/Moon could again be reused, and the Paraffin, Cellulose, Methane would be cargo delivered where it was needed.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-04-22 09:51:38)

Void · 2024-04-22 13:30:13

From my point of view, scouting is a separate function that likely comes first. I have wondered if the Dragon in a modified form could be used for scouting along with robots.

I would suppose that in this case Nuclear-Electric could be used to move a set of Dragons and support equipment to Mars. This could be with or without humans in orbit of Mars.

This could be mixed with Starships with or without crew. More likely early on without crew.

Starship with Raptors has the hope for great capabilities, and efficiency.

But the Dragon is lighter, I believe and even if it is not as efficient may have capabilities that would be useful for scouting.

Robots could take a close look at water ice and other resources perhaps.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-04-22 13:34:28)

kbd512 · 2024-04-22 16:27:13

Eurka Alert - News Release 23-Sep-2021 - Chinese scientists report starch synthesis from CO2 - Chinese Academy of Sciences Headquarters

Chinese scientists recently reported a de novo route for artificial starch synthesis from carbon dioxide (CO2) for the first time. Relevant results were published in Science on Sept. 24.
The new route makes it possible to shift the mode of starch production from traditional agricultural planting to industrial manufacturing, and opens up a new technical route for synthesizing complex molecules from CO2.
Starch is the major component of grain as well as an important industrial raw material. At present, it is mainly produced by crops such as maize by fixing CO2 through photosynthesis. This process involves about 60 biochemical reactions as well as complex physiological regulation. The theoretical energy conversion efficiency of this process is only about 2%.
Strategies for the sustainable supply of starch and use of CO2 are urgently needed to overcome major challenges of mankind, such as the food crisis and climate change. Designing novel routes other than plant photosynthesis for converting CO2 to starch is an important and innovative S&T mission and will be a significant disruptive technology in today’s world.
To address this issue, scientists at the Tianjin Institute of Industrial Biotechnology (TIB) of the Chinese Academy of Sciences (CAS) designed a chemoenzymatic system as well as an artificial starch anabolic route consisting of only 11 core reactions to convert CO2 into starch.
This route was established by a "building block" strategy, in which the researchers integrated chemical and biological catalytic modules to utilize high-density energy and high-concentration CO2 in a biotechnologically innovative way.
The researchers systematically optimized this hybrid system using spatial and temporal segregation by addressing issues such as substrate competition, product inhibition, and thermodynamical adaptation.
The artificial route can produce starch from CO2 with an efficiency 8.5-fold higher than starch biosynthesis in maize, suggesting a big step towards going beyond nature. It provides a new scientific basis for creating biological systems with unprecedented functions.
"According to the current technical parameters, the annual production of starch in a one-cubic-meter bioreactor theoretically equates with the starch annual yield from growing 1/3 hectare of maize without considering the energy input," said CAI Tao, lead author of the study.
This work would open a window for industrial manufacturing of starch from CO2.
"If the overall cost of the process can be reduced to a level economically comparable with agricultural planting in the future, it is expected to save more than 90% of cultivated land and freshwater resources," said MA Yanhe, corresponding author of the study.
In addition, it would also help to avoid the negative environmental impact of using pesticides and fertilizers, improve human food security, facilitate a carbon-neutral bioeconomy, and eventually promote the formation of a sustainable bio-based society.
TIB has focused on artificial starch biosynthesis and CO2 utilization since 2015. To carry out such demand-oriented S&T research, all kinds of resources for innovation have been gathered together and the integration of "discipline, task and platform" has been strengthened to achieve efficient coordination of research efforts.
This study was supported by the Key Research Program of CAS and the Tianjin Synthetic Biotechnology Innovation Capacity Improvement Project.
Journal: Science
Article Title: Cell-free chemoenzymatic starch synthesis from carbon dioxide
Link: http://dx.doi.org/10.1126/science.abh4049
Article Publication Date: 23-Sep-2021

Void · 2024-04-22 20:02:59

That seems very important kdb512. I do feel that in this period of time, the East Asian and the so-called western cultures seem to be in a high state of stimulation. And I consider it good that they are not identical in results. These are the things needed to escape from social collapse, and also perhaps to expand into the solar system.

Done

Void · 2024-04-26 19:11:25

I wandered into this article today: https://www.universetoday.com/166595/di … ian-moons/
Quote:

Did An Ancient Icy Impactor Create the Martian Moons?
The Martian moons Phobos and Deimos are oddballs. While other Solar System moons are round, Mars’ moons are misshapen and lumpy like potatoes. They’re more like asteroids or other small bodies than moons.
Because of their odd shapes and unusual compositions, scientists are still puzzling over their origins.
Two main hypotheses attempt to explain Phobos and Deimos. One says they’re captured asteroids, and the other says they are debris from an ancient impactor that collided with Mars. Earth’s moon was likely formed by an ancient collision when a planetesimal slammed into Earth, so there’s precedent for the impact hypothesis. There’s also precedent for the captured object scenario because scientists think some other Solar System moons, like Neptune’s moon Triton, are captured objects.

Phobos and Deimos have lots in common with carbonaceous C-type asteroids. They’re the most plentiful type of asteroid in the Solar System, making up about 75% of the asteroid population. The moons’ compositions and albedos support the captured asteroid theory. But their orbits are circular and close to Mars’ equator. Captured objects should have much more eccentric orbits.

The moons are less dense than silicate, the most abundant material in Mars’ crust. That fact works against the impact theory. A powerful impact would’ve blasted material from Mars into space, forming a disk of material rotating around the planet. Phobos and Deimos would’ve formed from that material. If they result from an ancient planetesimal impact, they should contain more Martian silica.
Here’s the problem in a nutshell. The captured asteroid theory can explain the moons’ observed physical characteristics but not their orbits. The impact theory can explain their orbits but not their compositions.

In research presented at the 55th Lunar and Planetary Science Conference, three researchers proposed a different origin story for Phobos and Deimos. They suggest that an impactor is responsible for creating the moons, but the impactor was icy.
The research is titled “THE ICY ORIGINS OF THE MARTIAN MOONS.” The first author is Courteney Monchinski from the Earth-Life Science Institute at the Tokyo Institute of Technology.
If a rocky impactor slammed into Mars, it would’ve created a massive debris disk around the planet. Previous researchers have examined the idea using simulations and found that an impact could’ve created the moons. But the disk created by the impact would’ve been far more massive than Phobos and Deimos combined. The simulations showed that there would’ve been a third, much more massive moon created within Phobos’ orbit that would’ve fallen back down to Mars. But there’s no strong evidence of something that massive striking Mars.

Other impact studies used basaltic impactors. But those showed that the temperature in the debris disk would’ve been so high it would’ve melted the disk material and destroyed ancient chondritic materials. Since the pair of moons appear to contain those materials, a basaltic impactor is ruled out.
According to the research presented at the conference, an icy impactor can explain Phobos and Deimos’ origins. There are three reasons for that.
The extra disk mass created by a rocky impactor would not be present. Instead, much of the mass in the impactor would’ve been vapourized on impact and escaped the system rather than persisting in the disk and being taken up by the formation of moons. There would’ve been no large third moon and no need to explain how it fell back to Mars.

The second reason concerns the composition of the moons. With abundant water ice in the collision, the temperature in the debris disk would’ve been lower. That would’ve preserved the carbonaceous materials in Phobos and Deimos today. It also can help explain their density and possible porosity. An icy impactor could’ve also delivered water to Mars, and we know Mars was wetter in its past.
The third reason concerns Deimos’ orbit. It’s not synchronous with Mars, and an icy impactor can explain that. With more water ice in the disk, there would’ve been a viscous interaction between the disk’s dust and vapour that extended the disk, allowing Deimos to occupy its orbit.
The researchers used Smoothed Particle Hydrodynamic (SPH) simulations to test the icy impactor idea. They simulated giant impactors with varying quantities of water ice and watched as disks formed around Mars and moons formed in the disk.
They first found that an impactor with any amount of water ice produced a more massive debris disk. It could be because an impactor containing water ice would be larger, though less massive, than one without any ice. That allowed more material to spray from the planet into the disk. It could also be because the water ice absorbs some of the impact energy when it vapourizes. That would cool the disk temperature, lowering the velocities of particles in the disk and making them less likely to escape.

This figure from the research shows that any amount of ice in an impactor increases the size of the debris disk. Image Credit: Monchinski et al. 2024. LPSC
The temperature in the disk is a critical part of this. Different amounts of water ice in the impactor change the disk temperature and what types of materials in the disk would melt. Impactors with more than 30% ice create disk temperatures too low to melt silicates. Perhaps more tellingly, impactors with more than 70% ice result in a disk temperature too low to alter or destroy chondritic material, which both Phobos and Deimos are expected to contain.

According to the researchers, an icy impactor can also explain other features. “The existence of water in the impact-generated disk also suggests that water may condense, accounting for the possible water-ice content of the moons,” they write.
Ultimately, the researchers say an icy impactor with 70% to 90% water ice mantles can explain the pair of moons.
“The best case for reproducing the moons’ proposed compositions are the 70% and 90% water-ice mantle impactor cases, as they allow for low disk temperatures and more chances for chondritic materials to survive,” they explain.
Unfortunately, that may not be realistic. “In our current solar system, an object with around 70% or 90% water-ice content is not exactly realistic, as the object with the highest amount of water content in our current solar system, Ganymede, is only about 50% water,” they write.

The ESA’s Mars Express orbiter captured this image of Phobos over the Martian landscape in this image taken in November 2010. Irregularly shaped and only 27 km long, Phobos is actually much darker (due to its carbon-rich surface) than is apparent in this contrast-enhanced view. Image Credit: ESA / DLR / G. neukum
But could things have been different in the past? Samples from asteroid Ryugu suggest that its parent body could’ve been up to 90% water. That number is based on the types of minerals in Ryugu. But unfortunately, scientists don’t now for sure. Ryugu’s parent body could have contained as little as 20% water.
But it’s at least plausible that early in the Solar System’s life, an impactor with 70% water ice could have existed. If so, then the icy impactor scenario could be a robust theory to explain the origins of Phobos and Deimos.

“This impactor would have come from the outer solar system around the time of giant planet instability,” the authors write. During that time, outer Solar System bodies were perturbed and sent flying into the inner Solar System. But in this case, the impact’s timing needs to be constrained by Phobos’ and Deimos’ formation ages.

Scientists need more evidence to deepen their understanding of Mars and its moons. Japan’s Martian Moons eXploration (MMX) mission will provide that. MMX’s mission is to return a sample of Phobos to Earth. The goal is to determine if it is a captured asteroid or the result of an impact.
Unfortunately, JAXA just delayed MMX’s launch. It was scheduled to launch in September 2024 but has been delayed until 2026. That means we won’t get samples until 2031 instead of 2029.
JAXA has completed successful sample return missions, so they have the expertise to bring a piece of Phobos back to Earth. If scientists can determine how Phobos and Deimos formed, it’ll be part of a much larger, detailed picture of how the Solar System formed.
It’ll be worth it if we have to wait a couple extra years.

The Hope Probe adds to the uncertainty of the above: https://www.thenationalnews.com/uae/uae … on-deimos/

But it may be that the moons Phobos and Deimos are a mixture.

I don't know why the UAE probe does not mention Carbon, which other sources seem to think exists on the moons.

In this article other claims are made about the spectrums: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moons_of_Mars
Quote:

The origin of the Martian moons is still controversial.[31] Phobos and Deimos both have much in common with carbonaceous C-type asteroids, with spectra, albedo, and density very similar to those of C- or D-type asteroids

Spectra at a distance says Carbon, while the Hope mission does not mention it.

Oh well, in any case the two moons will be important in the future no matter their composition.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-04-26 19:45:52)

Void · 2024-04-27 05:42:19

Some TechBlab here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q2-JgMsXRu8
Quote:

SpaceX Revealed New Starlink Space Station changing everything...
GREAT SPACEX

https://www.vastspace.com/

https://spacenews.com/vast-space-intro/

https://www.vastspace.com/roadmap
Image Quote:

So, although a full-fledged Starship system that works is necessary for lower cost space access and for planed methods to the Moon and Mars, space stations for Earth are going to be important. I may imagine that they could be towed around with a nuclear electric propulsion system eventually.

A 7 module spin gravity space station might be replicated if the first one proves useful, and perhaps these could serve as a sort of spaceship.
Granted you could not have people on board while transiting slowly though the Van Allen belts, but another ship might send crew though that at speed and then link up with such a 7 module device near the Moon or even Mars.

Other space stations with microgravity may provide income from manufacturing in space. And then eventually there may be farm space stations. We can hope.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-04-27 06:06:54)

Void · 2024-04-27 07:16:58

This could be supportive of the notion of creating Comet-Ships to fly inward from the outer solar system to the inner solar system.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/technolo … r-BB1le7Fo
Quote:

Are Water-Powered Engines Real? NASA Says 'Yes,' But It's Complicated
Story by Daniel Trock • 2w • 4 min read

So, it has been done on a very small scale.

https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 85#p222185
Quote:

If we are really fortunate all the makings for this would be in the Martian moons Phobos and Deimos. Otherwise perhaps Mars itself, for some of it, and then also perhaps the Asteroid belt, and maybe Venus or Callisto, Saturn?

Then to bring the volatile stuff to where it is wanted in the inner solar system.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-04-27 07:21:23)

Void · 2024-04-27 09:14:16

(th) had some comments: https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 90#p222390

The notions of the drawing are just a bid towards a capability. If someone can think better, then that is a good thing.

This machine is hoped to minimize dry mass. So, little or no cryogenic storage. Small Engine(s). Small power supply. Light weight concentrating mirror.

Usually in working with combustion for propulsion you have a bunch of dry mass that only gets used on launch or landing.

Or you can have an electric rocket, which is burdened by a tank of propellant. And electric rocket propellant is not necessarily available at an asteroid or Callisto, or Saturn. I don't think Venus has much Argon.

Mars itself does have Argon. If the moons of Mars do not have Hydrogen, they will have Oxygen which is about 89% of the propellant in water, I believe. So, if you had to haul Hydrogen up from Mars itself, and then bond it to Oxygen from the moons, then you have water.

Anyway, what I have shown is an option, not necessarily the only thing that could be done.

But you are correct, the propulsion system will need to be reliable to run for years without intervention. However, if it was sized up, then you might have a robot on board to do some repairs. With water as your propellant, then if you do not use all of it up upon arrival, then you have the water leftovers, which would be valuable.

If one of these was delivered to a terrestrial crossing stony asteroid, then if humans traveled to it you would have some life support, including a radiation protection method.

In launching one of these from an outer solar system location, it could be helpful to give the device a kick with a booster of some kind, and then to finish the travel using a slow thrust of small amount.

In that case you might end up spiraling in to the target world, and not having to rely on aero burns. Heat Shields are dry mass, that may not be wanted.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2024-04-27 09:31:37)

Void · 2024-04-28 08:25:23

https://www.bing.com/videos/riverview/r … &FORM=VIRE Quote:

Settling Mars: Phobos & Deimos
YouTube
Isaac Arthur
52.5K views
1 month ago

I know that the above deviates from "Mars Direct". I know why persons like Dr. Zubrin pushed Mars Direct, and I have sympathy for that point of view. I can also support it to a degree, and also the idea of Moon Direct as well.

But we have to deal with reality. We can have preferences, but need to be adaptable to the flow of things as it really may unfold.

The USA seems to be moving to some direction to the notion of Nuclear Thermal and Nuclear Electric devices, and also NASA seems to favor a Orbit Mars First plan. So big movers like SpaceX have to adapt their plans to be somewhat in harmony with those potential pathways, in order to get the best results.

And this topic is about orbital activities.

Also, it is becoming apparent that hardware in development that can give access to one world can also potentially give access to other such worlds. Many nations on Earth are more interested in the Moon than Mars. So, that needs to be taken into account as well, in my opinion.

If I followed correctly, Isaac Arthur said Deimos is about 10 times the Mass of Mt. Everest, and Phobos is about 70 times the Mass of Mt. Everest. He also seemed to say that 1/1000th of Deimos would be enough materials to make mirrors in Mars orbits sufficient to double the solar flux of Mars.

Another claim is that using Hydro Lox, to launch off of the Moon, you may need 7.5 tons of propellants to launch 10 tons to orbit. For Mars it is 20 tons of propellant to launch 10 tons to orbit.

Let me make it clear, if someone can organize a Mars Direct method that can initiate settlement of Mars, I am not opposed. But the Starship effort is already deviating into space stations, some that may have synthetic spin gravity. And it is deviating to the Moon. By the time major expeditions to Mars can be organized, the potential to also work with Phobos and Deimos are likely to be real potentials.

I also believe that later on, it may be possible to interact with Mars crossing asteroids, by sending materials and receiving materials to Mars orbits.

The truth of the reliability of solar power in Martian orbit makes it attractive. But I am glad that nuclear reactors for the Moon are under development. I expect that it may be that they could become available for the surface of Mars.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-04-28 09:05:51)

Void · 2024-04-28 14:27:25

I ran into this today, just a space solar power video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YX1bcNqhhi8
Quote:

Future Solar: Space-Based Solar Power Is No Longer Science Fiction
Dr Ben Miles
228K

Interesting of course.

To Thaw, cold worlds this might be a good path. Mars of course. The energy could satisfy various needs, and you could do as much as possible to tuck the waste heat into subsurface locations.

One idea they seem to provide is that things in orbit can be attached in clusters. I suppose that for some situations this might deal with the potential Kestler Syndrome. Probably want to reduce existing space junk as well.

I think that power transmission may be better than mirrors. As I have said before you could get sectioned oceans/seas on some of these worlds by that method. Callisto and Titan might be of interest for this.

https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=10756

LED's seem to be being improved per this article: https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 62#p222362
Quote:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3EkWn49Zi2U
Quote:
Biomimetic LEDs: The Ultra Efficient Breakthrough
Ziroth
The video has a long annoying advertisement embedded but the article is a good one I feel.
Done

So, although many people do not so much approve of electricity to LED's to power underground/underwater biospheres, they could be possible and attractive on worlds such as Mars, Callisto, Ganymede, and Titan. For any of these even if the mirrors have to be gigantic, it should be possible to make it work.

Of course, LED's might only be used to provide a faction of the needs. Some light and some heat. But factory waste heat could then warm these undersurface places. But with chemical agricultural assistance apparently being possible, then the lighting might only need to be 5-10% of a photo organism needs. That might be enough to signal seasonal simulations.

Of course I have usually considered covered water reservoirs for this, and still do think it is a good plan.

Even at Saturn, it could be questionable if Fusion power would be better than solar power, provided that concentrating mirrors work as it seems they might.

On Titan however domes with air fill would likely be very possible, and those could be lighted with LED's. And they could be quite large.

I still think that other sources of energy should be developed as they may be useful in some places in the solar system particularly out in the Dwarf Planets of the Kuiper Belt, Oort Clouds, and Rouge Planet potentials.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-04-28 14:46:45)

Void · 2024-04-30 14:50:59

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mhMYOmjgCuc
Quote:

SpaceX revealed New Internet & Inflatable Space Station Shocked Nasa...
TECH MAP
66.9K subscribers

I like the part where they suggest that Vast intends to have space stations "Across the Solar System".

I am willing to hope for it.

Done

Void · 2024-05-01 08:57:39

This showed up today: https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 37#p222537
Quote:

Well, I think that this is very good: https://phys.org/news/2024-05-horizonta … sical.html
Quote:
MAY 1, 2024 REPORT
Editors' notes
Horizontal running could help lunar astronauts retain physical conditioning
by Bob Yirka , Phys.org
Quote:
The research team noted that the forces exerted by the volunteers against the walls of the cylinder were similar to those of a runner under normal conditions on Earth—more than enough to keep their muscles and bones from atrophying if they ran in the cylinder every day on the moon.
This may also indicate that an orbital slow spin habitat may permit this method to conserve heath.
And of course this should work on Mars.
Done

So, that may work for adults capable of running, which is worth quite a lot.

I would venture that if you had a spin gravity cylinder inside of a static cylinder, the speed or rotation could be low enough to allow pressurization. And with a small, simulated gravity,

You could have a main pressure vessel that does not spin, and a spinner in it. It may be possible to have a canister in the main pressure vessel that can give microgravity, as to be shielded from the vibrations of the rest of the structure.

So, in space manufacturing in LEO, this would perhaps allow prolonged human presence in a very large set of structures. This would strogly reduce the need for reconditioning in a full scale 1 g circumstance.

Last edited by Void (2024-05-01 09:07:25)

Void · 2024-05-01 15:10:28

I have been pondering a torus "Master Structure" around small worlds, perhaps even Ceres. A very large torus shell around the equator of Ceres perhaps and at a distance, so big that it blocks the solar wind. Perhaps with that an atmosphere would be possible for Ceres, but perhaps that is bogus. The shell would be the important thing.

It probably would not be pressurized itself but might contain many pressurized habitats.

It could intercept a great deal of sunlight.

Perhaps it could be tied to Ceres with many space elevators.

Anyway lots of possibilities. I like the idea of a master shell and subshells nested into it.

Such a plan might work OK with Centaurs also.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-05-02 08:14:33)

Void · 2024-05-02 09:45:44

I am looking at this. I will not have time to comment just yet: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3nxBPHZ2xJM&t=214s
Quote:

The Banks Orbital: God’s Bracelet
Isaac Arthur
782K subscribers

Comments pending...............

I like that he presents really far out materials, but he made it plain that he thinks some of it may not be done simply because it is not desired int the future, or maybe it will be?

I have this today; I have been having another look as shell worlds:
Supposing you had a small world like Ceres, or even something smaller. Then you might build a shell(s) assembly that is hosted in the edge of the hill sphere of the little world.

I have suggested that perhaps the blue areas would be air or water filled to some extent. The large size of the shell is so that it can intercept the maximum amount of sunlight, in the spirit of a Dyson Sphere but only for this one little world.

The drawing is not proportional to the actual situation, the sphere could be really big. As I said it would capture sunlight, both to its surface, but also at the poles using optics it might convey some sunlight into the interior.

While I have showed triple shells in the places not the poles, it could be many more, so me pressurized, perhaps, but some hosting lots of spin gravity machines. The shells would hopefully have enough strength to not buckle, as they would be kept well away on the outskirts of the gravity field of Ceres, (In the case of Ceres).

While Ceres could have space elevators, they would not connect to the Hill Shell. This then allows the Hill shell to tidal lock to the sun, presenting one side with solar collectors of some kind to face the sun all the time.

Magnetic repulsion may be used to keep the shell equalized away from the little world at its center.

Another purpose of this setup would be to reduce atmospheric losses. The surface of the night side of the shell may be very cold so as to allow gas molecules not Hydrogen or Helium to condense on it. Possibly magnetics and a dip in the shells altitude on the night side would facilitate capture of escaped gasses.

The Hill Shells will only hold a small air pressure against the vacuum of space. The intention is to keep sunlight and the solar wind from exciting them enough to escape thorough any holes in the Hill shells.

Down on Ceres the atmosphere might thicken a bit by gravitational compression. Maybe even enough for a biosphere, on top of a shell world situation around Ceres, (not the Hill Shell(s)).

Ceres itself might end up like Swiss cheese. The world itself may have an ocean over it that can gravitationally pressurize the ocean bottom.

Nothing is set in stone; notions are still very loose. Just trying to do a crude outline of what might be possible.

Could this be done for small moons of the outer planets, perhaps, with appropriate revisions.

Mars? Well, that is getting really far out there. But it would be a really big shell.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hill_sphere
Image Quote:
Quote:

A contour plot of the effective gravitational potential of a two-body system, here, the Sun and Earth, indicating the five Lagrange points.[clarification needed][citation needed]

Image Quote:
Quote:

Logarithmic plot of the Hill radii for the bodies of the solar system

It looks like you get much more hill sphere for Ceres relative to it's mass than you do for larger objects.

Yes, it is possible that I have missed something. Like? I have worried that the poles might collapse under the gravitation of ceres or the sun, but I am not sure.

Anyway, it is worth suggesting it, maybe someone will show the faults, and then it might be possible that a revision would make it more plausible.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2024-05-02 13:18:22)

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