Para Terra formation in Orbit, with orbital services.

Void · 2024-03-30 05:40:50

I have realized that this site really does not have a root for this to be plugged into, and yet it is a whole world(s) in itself.
An orbital space station / habitat is the equivalent of para terra formation on the surface of a world. The equivalent of a "Dome" on a worlds surface.

For the moment here, I see two major categories to attach to this topic.
1) Space Stations. (Platforms in space orbits or on minor worlds).
2) Orbital Services. (Spacecraft services such as refilling, spacecraft repairs, manufacturing).

*The number of categories could perhaps be expanded later.

Done

04/1/2024 a member has provided some very good reference materials on gravity effects, and Lunar Gravity Simulations: http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 32#p221232
Thanks Mars_B4_Moon

Last edited by Void (2024-04-01 11:19:50)

Void · 2024-03-30 05:47:39

I wanted to have a location for Heat Shield repairs and manufacturing, so this topic can contain that service.

I made this post elsewhere, last night that can plug in here: https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 38#p221038
Quote:

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 6,979
Email
This is an old garbage bin where I have placed quite a few of my odd speculations.
But I will use it for a potential topic. I can be up to the moderators to move this post to another topic if they want to or to create a new topic if they want to, or to do nothing.
The new topics name could be "In-Orbit Heat Shield Repairs".
I expect that SpaceX will improve its heat tile methods over time. It seems highly likely to me that at this time they are experimenting on many different types, and some are not working that well.
As I understand it the Space Shuttle could endure losing some heat shield tiles, but some were critical, and we lost a crew because of that.
I queried for opinions and got some opinions here: "Can starship tolerate heat shield losses?"
https://www.reddit.com/r/SpaceXLounge/c … eld_tiles/
These three are somewhat optimistic:
u/CremePuffBandit avatar
CremePuffBandit
•
3y ago
They still have the insulating ceramic fabric behind them, which will hopefully help in the case of a lost tile.

webbitor
•
3y ago
Musk has stated that it can lose a few. The stainless steel can withstand pretty high temperatures, much more so than aluminum (like the shuttle) or typical carbon fiber composite materials.
MrDearm
•
3y ago
The biggest difference with Starship vs the shuttle is that it’s made of steel, not aluminum. One shuttle other than Columbia actually lost a tile in its mission and re-entered successfully cuz the tile happened to be the one covering a steel antenna mount. Steel is a lot more resilient to heat. So to answer u question, it can prob lost a few, but not a lot.
But it has occurred to me that there are going to be space stations in orbit and propellant depots. Robotics it is improving a lot.
So, for many cases where the heat shield has damage it may be possible to do patching. Patching ideally would simply mean snapping a new tile in where a gap occurred, provided that the pins were functional. So, that could be a vast improvement over the situation which existed for the Space Shuttle.
So, if such a repair method were available in orbit, then the tanker Starships should be highly redeemable from a damage of the heat shield in many cases.
Mars bound Starships should be redeemable. If they are not of course they should not set off for Mars.
So other Starships might be able to "Abort to Orbit, if it is felt landing before repairs would be too dangerous. There may be a tug with a repair kit to service those.
Point to Point, however, may need a higher reliability of heat shield, which could come later.
However, if Point to Point also used the Superheavy booster perhaps, they too could abort to orbit, if they understood they had heavy heat shield damage. For Point to Point if cargo could be ejected somehow, perhaps they could better facilitate a abort to orbit.
Done
Last edited by Void (Yesterday 21:45:40)
Done.

I can add a alternate portion about manufacturing heat shields in orbit from materials of various worlds, Earth, Luna, asteroids, etc.

One concept I have been pondering is a heat shield system that could be manufactured from Lunar or Asteroid materials and might be a one-time use. It might be to assist a "Naked" spacecraft to aerobrake to a planetary orbit.

Lunar Starship might achieve an Earth orbit where it could be refilled, using this method. A one-time use version might see the heat shield recycled in orbit as a source of Lunar materials to build things with. Such a heat shield might be reused though, if an efficient method to bring it back to a Lunar orbit were used, such as electric propulsion. It might resemble a large surfboard for Lunar Starships.

Such a heat shield might have tiles that would be compatible with Starship heat shield tiles. So then tiles salvaged from the "Surfboard Heat Shield" might actually be reused to patch a Starship, with a damaged heat shield.

The Surfboard Heat Shield may include substances of the Lunar Regolith, including Oxygen, bonded to such substances.
The Oxygen extracted, then that could perhaps refill spacecraft as propulsion materials.

Even the metals of the Surfboard could become propellant for something like a Neumann Drive: https://neumannspace.com/

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-03-30 13:28:21)

Void · 2024-03-30 10:15:43

I am very interested in Spaceships like Starship interacting with space stations in LEO.
So, I guess we might call that the "LEO Loop". For this it is not so much required to have a propellant Starship.

I am almost annoyed by the "Lunar Loop", sort of similar to having to go to the gym. But I do go to the gym as it does so far improve my capacities. The Lunar Loop may offer materials that the LEO Loop may also offer, but we hope that the Lunar Loop can eventually be a more cost-effective option. But it will require propellants from the LEO Loop at first, and we may hope, from the Lunar Loop and Other Wolds Loop later.

I guess there would then be an "Other Worlds" loop which would include Mars/Phobos/Deimos.

The LEO loop could include parts stored in orbit, to service spaceships like Starship.

So, the LEO Loop may include an orbital repair shop. The Lunar Loop eventually could include a repair shop, that ships launching from the Moon might stop off at before heading to a lower Earth orbit.

Per heat shields, we might see something like the Canada Arm with something like part of a humanoid robot on its end.

Something like Optimus, the Tesla Bot might do.

So, some kind of Heat Shield patching may be available for the LEO Loop. I would think this could be used by Dream Chaser and other ships on occasion. Such a station might also have emergency consumables available also, for crew, if they are stranded in orbit for a while.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-03-30 20:29:39)

Void · 2024-03-30 13:30:01

To continue, I have read about plans to use Starships to make Space Stations. I have also read that LEO equatorial orbits may not need too much additional radiation shielding. From the LEO loop might come materials from Earth to fortify such structures.

But if the Lunar Loop is established, then fortifying materials might come from the Moon. I have mentioned the Surfboard concept before.

Calliban has mentioned basalt products in the past elsewhere.

Cast Basalt has been mentioned by Calliban.
Here are some results for such a query:
https://cbpengineering.com/pdf/CBP-Basa … 800%C2%B0F.

So, sort of parts from regolith melted and formed. And so, I anticipate a surfboard with structural members of ceramics and perhaps metal parts to help hold it together. That to be air braked to a useful Earth orbit. Then the materials to be reused in further processing methods to produce useful products for Earth orbits lower than that of the Moon.

I can imagine tensile metal straps, to wrap around the hull of a Starship used as a space station, or to coat the interior or exterior of the hull with some component of the materials of "Surfboard".

Also, then the Oxygen from the Ceramics, can then become propellant, or a component of water.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-03-30 20:28:04)

Void · 2024-03-30 20:33:04

In LEO Stations, some simple Starships sent to orbit, might have parts removed from them and then landed back to Earth. Engine, avionics. Such Starships would not have heat shields, or flap assemblies with motors.

The shells left in orbit could go to build things, in LEO, or as propellant for Neumann Drives.

I have my eye on Stoke Space also. That device can be of 2 propulsion stages, and one cargo section in the nose. Fairings have bee said to have the possible options to have hungry hippo style where the fairings stay with the ship on its return to Earth, or the fairings can drop off into the ocean as the Falcon 9 system of SpaceX does it.

But their fairings could stay in orbit to build structure with, or to make propellants for a Neumann Drive.

If Stoke Space is successful, I would like the to supersize their 2nd stage and cargo nose, and see if SpaceX would put it on top of their Metha lox Super Heavy.

I don't know if Stoke Space supersized would work with Hydrogen cooling, but I would like to know if it would.

My suspicion is that if it did work to supersize it, then the combination of Starship and the Stoke Space Method would be great together, both using the same or similar 1st stage from SpaceX.

So, I am very excited for LEO with these new types of ships, and then of course to go beyond LEO.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-03-30 20:41:06)

Void · 2024-03-31 09:03:39

Obviously two things may drive orbital activities. The economic case for servicing orbital infrastructure and spaceships, and people who might be willing to live in orbit, if the conditions are attractive enough.

And this may stand true for most worlds in the solar system. The idea of settling individual worlds could lead to the partition of humans into different subparts. Orbital infrastructure throughout the solar system may be common enough in the lifestyle available that a common culture may be somewhat dominant.

In the decades that I have watched, it is often that binary contests are applied to what should have emphasis. Mars or Moon, Synthetic Habitats in Orbit or Planets. These are actually silly contests. The thing most sensible is to encourage new settlements, and then to allow Laissez-faire to drive things in most cases. There can be exceptions to that but. Economics is a good driving force to utilize.

A good start will occur in LEO, I expect. Not only will it make sense to have maintenance capabilities in orbit for Ships before they attempt landing, but certain microgravity industries are also likely to emerge soon, it seems. And then there are the tourism people.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_manufacturing

Infrastructure that may develop in LEO, may very likely be exported to Mars orbits, and in that case there is access to three lower worlds with lower gravity than Earth.

LEO services are likely to make the success of Starship and others to lower launch costs more probable. And we have robotics that are emerging into humanoid forms. Obviously, LEO and the Moon could benefit from such robots.

Mirror technology could make orbital solar power very similar from Mercury to Saturn in my opinion. It is true that a new Earth would be really great to have, but where will we get one? Even Mars will likely take either large amounts of time and/or vastly more powerful technologies than what we have now. If Fusion shows up as economical, then orbital habitations could extend into the Oort Cloud and beyond. That might be one patch to the stars, a slow path.

But it has a lot of potential to fulfill human needs. But where possible world settlements will be wanted as well.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-03-31 09:26:09)

Void · 2024-03-31 18:56:34

I think that the Moon is easy relative to other worlds due to the potential of robots. But it does have enough gravity that it is a problem to overcome it is a major key. I tend to like the works of Isaac Arthur, so I will lean on one of those to get a start: https://www.bing.com/videos/riverview/r … &FORM=VIRE
Quote:

Jul 6, 2023 · 0:00 / 33:52. Lunar Mining, Processing & Refining. Isaac Arthur. 756K subscribers. 120K views 2 months ago. After over half a century, it is time to return to the Moon, and use its …

I don't feel particularly competent to create methods to get into Low Lunar Orbit or any Lunar Orbit. But it comforts me to see that some people are thinking on it. Another method that I recently ran into was a paste of Aluminum Powder in Liquid Oxygen. It is said to be a monopropellant. I would have never thought that it could be stable enough. Some special methods with liquid Nitrogen and a piston, seem to be methods for it. A pinch of Hydrogen added makes it work considerably better. Here is something about it: https://ntrs.nasa.gov/citations/19930008606
I guess the nice thing about that article is that it demonstrates that greater minds have worked on the problems, and that there may be some unexpected solutions that may be possible.

I would like to imagine Starship or a substitute refilling on Oxygen somewhere near the Moon, and before that refilling in an orbit of the Moon, before traveling to the Moon.

I want to think about making a skid of sorts that could skip off of the Earth's atmosphere to bring Moon derived materials to orbits of the Earth that would be convenient for refilling Oxygen to a spacecraft.

A form of logic says, OK, make a big Oxygen tank out of Moon materials, and fill it with Lunar Oxygen. But it has occurred to me that Basalts and Ceramics associated with metal structures could be used as a heat shield to skip on the atmosphere of Earth, and so then bring Oxygen bound to Lunar metals or silicon.

A problem for that would be that people would not like such an object to drop on them, but we also would not want a Starship or an airliner to drop onto us. It is sort of a similar concern that has to be managed in a professional manner.

Professionals have had looks at something like that in the past: https://www.nasa.gov/wp-content/uploads … tagged.pdf

Ablation is said by some to be a way to deal with the more extreme heating of aerobraking. However, grazing the atmosphere to skip off of it may not bring the highest heat, I just don't know. Probably that is a direction to look.

But I am a bit foolish, so I will also wonder about heat sinking. I am tempted to want a steel container with Aluminum in it. The notion being that the Aluminum would sink heat by a phase change solid to liquid, and then later to dissipate the heat liquid to solid.

But Ablation would be quick and dirty, and perhaps more sensible.

But dust introduced into the atmosphere would perhaps have an effect. Perhaps to cool off the Earth. So, if you did it correctly you might get a twofer. That is to get Lunar materials to a location suitable to the needs of space ambitions. And then to cool off the Earth by sending dust into the Earth's upper atmosphere. Certainly, that method has to be considered as to what materials and the results of the process must be evaluated. If it is tried and shows a negative result, then that method has to be changed or stopped.

An ablation skipping method for Venus may have terraforming value as well. In that case the objects shedding ablation dust, would likely come from asteroids. Where dust in the atmosphere of Venus might shade, it also may react with the atmospheric chemistry in a favorable or unfavorable way.

The objects then moved by atmospheric skipping and braking, then could be processed further to get what is needed for whatever wants may exist. As I have said before the Oxygen is a good thing, and even the metals and silicon can be for structure or propellants.

Metal Dust can be used in a Mass Driver. Oxygen can also be shot out of a Mass Driver. Metal can be burned as a fuel, and the Neumann Drive can use many of the substances in the periodic table as propellants.

Neumann Drive: https://neumannspace.com/
Here is a list of propellants for electric rockets. The metals are suitable for the Neumann Drive in many cases: https://neumannspace.com/metal-propellants/

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-03-31 19:32:20)

Void · 2024-04-01 08:04:52

If the interests of humans support the construction of significant sized orbital habitat, I have already indicated that I like nested habitats.

I do not like the losses of atmosphere to space, in a squandering way. So, nesting may reduce the rates of loss. I would hope that it would reduce the rates of loss to levels that conserve valuable substances like Nitrogen and water, until an advanced society may be able to continuously fetch them from the most outer parts of the solar system.

This structure could be nested in a larger structure still.

But in general, N2/O2 leaking into the vacuum shell that the rotator would be in could be recovered back to the rotator.

The larger "Square" or "Cylinder" shell could be spinning or not spinning. Most likely the synthetic gravity for that shell would be very low, as much as can be healthy. It is possible that humans could move between pressures for periods of days.

Of course, we don't know the long-term consequences of living periodically in multiple synthetic gravities, and also multiple air pressures.

Bends and microgravity concerns would matter.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-04-01 08:24:07)

Void · 2024-04-01 10:06:55

So, then agriculture in low or microgravity: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vv6ATRPUjrI

In this simple cut away:

I have suggested a drum with a synthetic gravity disk in it. The drum/cylinder, may spin or not. For the most part I do think it would be good to investigate if zero gravity agriculture could be sized up to actually grow trees in microgravity.

A non-spinning cylinder or other shape has some advantages as you don't have to deal with gyroscopic effects or centrifugal forces on the structure. Window processes may be simpler. In the video I posted, they use artificial lighting, and that is an option, but windows may be a suitable alternative.

For some low or microgravity situations a well shielded vehicle might be how people travel inside of the "Garden". It could offer some reduction in radiation doses. When you were outside of it you might position yourself "Behind" it as per the sun's radiation sourcing.

Plants seem to handle radiation better than people, so you might want to skimp on radiation protection in the garden.

This article may be suitable: http://large.stanford.edu/courses/2022/ph241/newell2/
Quote:

How Plants Survive and Adapt to Radiation
Fletcher Newell
March 14, 2022
Submitted as coursework for PH241, Stanford University, Winter 2022
Introduction

Quote:

Adaptation
Before analyzing the effect of radiation on plants, it is necessary to first understand why radiation is dangerous to humans and animals. In addition to the burns and nausea that result from high levels of exposure, high-energy radiation is able to corrupt cells at a genetic level, which can cause the cell to die or spread the corruption as a cancer. [1] Unlike animals, however, plants are generally resistant to deadly cancers. The resistance arises from their cellular walls, which prevents cancerous cells from spreading, and their adaptive growth, which allows plants to work around damaged cells and regenerate new cells. [2] Some plants are therefore able to survive X-ray doses up to 10 Grays without significant detriment despite that same dosage being deadly for humans. [3]

So, to grow wood for instance why expend excessive effort to protect trees from radiation if you don't have to? Trees in various stages of their life cycle may actually be radiation protection for humans. In the diagram I made above if the trees are in the cylinder, and humans in the spinning disk, as long as you don't clear cut the trees all at once, some radiation protection can be given by the trees to the humans, as the trees may tolerate radiation more than humans and other animals.

The idea of wood in space is not an origination from me. I think minds in Japan have looked at it, and also perhaps now NASA.

If you look at Mars to start with it has the ingredients that trees may use to build their "Wood". And as you go outward in the solar system, this continues to be true on many worlds.

Cellulose at least includes Carbon, Oxygen, and Hydrogen. Except for plastics, the materials that can be built from those may be limited, and wood may be a good option. Wood is not just Cellulose, but it is to a large extent a variation as far as I can see of organic chemicals linked together to make a solid out of gasses and liquids.

So, anyway in time perhaps tree farming may come into existence in orbital space.

This video suggests using Nuclear with Moon activities: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UFjICGopt58
I am not sure where they hope to get their propulsion fluids, but still, it is interesting.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-04-01 10:51:53)

Void · 2024-04-01 11:21:04

04/1/2024 a member has provided some very good reference materials on gravity effects, and Lunar Gravity Simulations: http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 32#p221232
Thanks Mars_B4_Moon

My previous talk about this simple diagram supposed micro gravity in the outer shell:

But we might consider a version that uses a partial gravity less than or equal to a Lunar gravity simulation.

It is a tradeoff. It makes some things more complicated, but also it may be more adaptable to humans.

Done

I will just throw this in here, it is about the Moon: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OJd3ks6XXZk
Quote:

Why are scientists making ‘moon dust’? | BBC News
BBC News
15.8M subscribers

I like their shovel drums.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-04-01 11:31:44)

Void · 2024-04-01 20:27:19

Until the signals that cause healthy muscle, bone and other things have been solved perhaps this type of thing would be helpful.

A common plain that is 1/3 bar and microgravity would allow very large networks of places to grow forests and crops. The spinners that could be put inside would be helpful to human health. (See the previous posts).

For sanitary reasons, I think some gravity will be preferred even after it is possible to use medicine to control muscle and bone.

This is because I want waste products to stay in collection methods, and not to start floating about in a living area.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-04-01 20:28:03)

Calliban · 2024-04-02 04:17:32

On orbit heat shield repair or manufacture is an interesting topic. If we ever get to the point where significant space manufacturing is taking place in Earth orbit using lunar materials, reentry shields could be manufactured in space using lunar aluminium and titanium dioxide tiles. These could be bolted onto the bottom of reusable rockets in low Earth orbit. This means that reusable rocket won't have to launch with reentry heatshields in place. That reduced mass can be replaced with payload.

The large ship that Robert designed, could be fitted with a heat shield made on Mars surface or in Mars orbit using refractories mined from Phobos.

So far as paraterraforming in orbit is concerned. Interplanetary ships will generate effluents as a result of human habitation. It would save mass if we had facilities in Earth and Mars orbit, which could turn those effluents back into oxygen, food and clean water. One way of doing this would be orbiting greenhouses. Alternatively, we could use chemical processes to convert organic effluents into ammonia and acetate, which would then drive food producing micro-organisms.

Last edited by Calliban (2024-04-02 04:23:49)

Void · 2024-04-02 07:28:44

Caliban Said:

Calliban
Member
From: Northern England, UK
Registered: 2019-08-18
Posts: 3,365
Email
On orbit heat shield repair or manufacture is an interesting topic. If we ever get to the point where significant space manufacturing is taking place in Earth orbit using lunar materials, reentry shields could be manufactured in space using lunar aluminium and titanium dioxide tiles. These could be bolted onto the bottom of reusable rockets in low Earth orbit. This means that reusable rocket won't have to launch with reentry heatshields in place. That reduced mass can be replaced with payload.
The large ship that Robert designed, could be fitted with a heat shield made on Mars surface or in Mars orbit using refractories mined from Phobos.
So far as paraterraforming in orbit is concerned. Interplanetary ships will generate effluents as a result of human habitation. It would save mass if we had facilities in Earth and Mars orbit, which could turn those effluents back into oxygen, food and clean water. One way of doing this would be orbiting greenhouses. Alternatively, we could use chemical processes to convert organic effluents into ammonia and acetate, which would then drive food producing micro-organisms.
Last edited by Calliban (Today 05:23:49)
"Plan and prepare for every possibility, and you will never act. It is nobler to have courage as we stumble into half the things we fear than to analyse every possible obstacle and begin nothing. Great things are achieved by embracing great dangers."

I agree pretty much with what you have said.

Pause for Coffee.............

One of the items of terror with the Space Shuttle was how do you deal with tile loss? Starship will likely get better and better at retaining tiles, but never perfect. The bulk of Starship flights will not be likely to involve crew. More often they will bring propellants, and hardware to a space station. Doing that, a humanoid robot attached to a robot arm should be able to pop new tiles in where needed, if the retaining pins are in good shape.

While an arm is of interest, I have conceived of a ring method, which I have borrowed from your concept for mining small asteroids. The flaps are a bit in the way, but if you had such a ring, you could move it up and down the length of the Starship, and a humanoid robot could ride on the ring, as it would be a track it could move on. The ring could be attached to a linear track of a depot in orbit. A depot might receive propellants and hardware. So, repairs might be conducted while attached to the depot and offloading materials.

I believe that the tiles of the Starship plug into some sort of retaining pins or studs. So, it may be possible to simply push new ones on, I might hope.

Other means of temporary repair might be available if the pins are not in suitable condition. Perhaps some sort of goop could be applied that would solidify, and that goop would perhaps melt away during reentry.

If Dream Chaser works out, perhaps that can be a good way to move crew from Earth <> LEO. So, then crew rated Starships may not be so much needed, except to go to other worlds. Your concept of making landing tiles from Lunar Materials is interesting. Your mention of Roberts:

The large ship that Robert designed, could be fitted with a heat shield made on Mars surface or in Mars orbit using refractories mined from Phobos.

I like that idea. I may be a bit similar to the "Surfboard" I have mentioned. These would be devices made primarily of Lunar Materials, and could carry Oxygen not in tanks but bonded to Lunar Materials such as:

lunar aluminum and titanium dioxide tiles

. They may simply fly one time from the Moon to air brake to orbit of Earth, and then to be cannibalized for their materials, with some parts recycled back to the Moon, perhaps.

To continue, hopping over Callibans post after studying it.

Last edited by Void (2024-04-02 07:50:43)

Calliban · 2024-04-02 07:47:22

The idea of building a heat shield from thousands of individual tiles is a bad one so far as I can see. It means having thousands of potential failure points. Much better to have a monolithic shield that is plastered onto a support plate. The material could be a refractory grit of some kind in a clay bounding matrix. Glass fibres would ensure that the shield is bonded together and any cracks that occur do not propagate . On the ground after landing, the shield support plate can be unbolted from the fuselage, shot blasted and replastered. That way, you have a new heat shield for each reentry.

Last edited by Calliban (2024-04-02 07:48:44)

Void · 2024-04-02 07:53:55

Well, perhaps eventually that alternate heat shield method can be utilized.

If I were to modify my surfboard method, perhaps such a heat shield would be built in space perhaps from Moon or asteroid materials, and a ship needing to pass though the heat of entry would use it and drop it and so never have to expend propellants to bring it to orbit or to land it. The dropped heat shield might even be of some value. Of course, it would have to drop somewhere where it could be recovered if that was the case.

But for now, I guess we watch them work to a level of proficiency with the tile method they have. A one-eyed horse is better than no horse at all if you need a ride.

Done

A propulsion method that lifts materials off of the Moon, without relying entirely on Hydrogen as a fuel, is what is desired by me.

A paste of Liquid Oxygen and Aluminum powder, seems a possible option. Adding a pinch of Hydrogen may make it perform better. If the Starship lives up to expectations, then sending some Hydrogen to the Moon may not be prohibited. I would also consider adding Methane to the process instead. That also could come from places other than the Moon. That then adds Hydrogen to the burn process along with Carbon. Plastics dropped from a landing ship might be a source for the Methane, as you might then use the excess Carbon for some purpose as well. Hmmmm..... Maybe just add melted plastics to the LOX-Aluminum paste. Paraffin Wax might do as well.

Oh, well, perhaps better grind the plastics to a dust, and add it to the LOX-Aluminum powder paste. Maybe it will not explode if it is kept cryogenic? Then the material heated may burn. As I understand it the experiments kept the burn process from going into the propellant tank by cooling with liquid Nitrogen. Maybe some liquid Oxygen method could do the same and then the heated Oxygen could be added to the burn process.

Done

Query: "Rocket method using a paste of Liquid Oxygen and Aluminum powder"
General Response: https://www.bing.com/search?q=Rocket+me … 9B&pc=U531

Here is some material on the propulsion method: https://space.stackexchange.com/questio … ant-source Quote:

18
I was looking into whether there would be any way to source propellants from the moon itself in support of a future base and space stations in cis-lunar space. I found two documents exploring how aluminum in particular might work in combination with liquid oxygen.
One is by Wickman Spacecraft & Propulsion, who say:
An additional option available with aluminum is to suspend the aluminum powder in gelled LOX to form a monopropellant... As part of our research, we made a small rocket engine fueled by the LOX-aluminum monopropellant... The propellant tank was surrounded by a liquid nitrogen bath to keep the LOX from boiling off. The propellant feed lines ran through a liquid nitrogen bath on their way to the combustion chamber. A piston pushed against the propellant to feed the propellant into the rocket engine chamber. While the thrust was only about a pound, the engine was started and stopped several times without a flashback of the combustion flame front into the propellant tank.
The other is from a document called the Moon Miner's Manifesto, hosted on the website of the Artemis Society International:
Aluminum and oxygen alone will provide a specific impulse somewhat lower than most hydrocarbons. Brower et al. expect a value of 285 seconds... One [engine design] would be to pump aluminum powder as we do fluids. In this case, it will probably be necessary to use a carrier gas along with the powder to keep the aluminum grains from vacuum welding or sticking together from electrostatic forces... Another technique is a hybrid rocket engine using solid aluminum and liquid oxygen. A conceptual design for such an engine was proposed by Brower et al. Their design calls for a hexagonal array of aluminum bars the length of the combustion chamber. Liquid oxygen would be fed down the bars for regenerative cooling before reaching the flame at the bar tips. The engine could use oxygen and aluminum only, or could use tripropellant operation with hydrogen.

So, I would speculate to modify that. A "Fuel" of Aluminum powder and Plastic or Paraffin powder, bonded with Liquid Oxygen to make a paste fuel. Then more LOX as a further Oxidizer that is used to keep the paste cold until it gets into the burn process.

Plastic and Paraffin are substances which might be kept stable over long periods of time in orbit, and which might be hard landed to the Moon by ejection from a landing ship prior to landing.

So, I am not wild about getting propellants from Lunar water. I would prefer to conserve any such water for other uses on the Moon. The above suggests that methods may be possible.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-04-02 08:23:41)

Void · 2024-04-02 10:31:41

I will mention again that it might be possible to launch Starship shells to orbit for the sake of providing the shells as a raw material.

These would only have features to get to orbit and not to return to Earth.

If propellant depots have heat shield grooming features, then they also could have features to remove reusable components such as engines so that they can be delivered to the Earth's surface as down-mass.

While the shells could be reused as construction materials, I also wonder if these could become propellants. One of my hopes would be that the Neumann Drive can be sized up. But it is an infant technology, and I do not know if they can be sized up.

Other uses could occur. For instance, a Starship with added solar panels, could be given electric thrusters, and be filled with Argon for some various purposes. Travel between low and high orbits for instance.

Or such a device may do a sort of spin launch method where a payload would be on the other end of a tether, and the electric Starship would simply spin up the assembly to prep it for a payload launch.

It would be interesting if two electric Starships could do that. One would have massive solar panels and would stay more on location and the other one might be flung to a destination. That second Starship might have Kilo power unit to power its electric process.

So, some interesting expansions of the utility of Starships may be possible.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-04-02 10:41:40)

Void · 2024-04-03 10:29:49

I consider this to be a very good development: https://phys.org/news/2024-04-scientist … ather.html

Quote:

APRIL 3, 2024
Editors' notes
Scientists create plastic-free vegan leather that dyes itself, grown from bacteria
by Caroline Brogan, Imperial College London

Quote:

"Bacterial cellulose is inherently vegan, and its growth requires a tiny fraction of the carbon emissions, water, land use and time of farming cows for leather.
"Unlike plastic-based leather alternatives, bacterial cellulose can also be made without petrochemicals, and will biodegrade safely and non-toxically in the environment."

They use the word "Cellulose" so, that is interesting.

Looking further: https://www.mdpi.com/2073-4360/15/16/3466
Quote:

Natural biomaterial synthesized by bacteria
Bacterial cellulose is a natural biomaterial synthesized by bacteria12. It has the same chemical formula as plant cellulose, (C 6 H 10 O 5) n, but it has a unique structure of cellulose nanofiber-weaved three-dimensional network31. Bacterial cellulose has versatile applications in various fields such as medicine, pharmacy, biotechnology, cosmetology, food and food packaging, ecology, and electronics2. The most efficient bacterial cellulose producers are certain species of the genera Komagataeibacter and Novacetimonas2.

This of course could be important for any world that has an abundance of Carbon, Hydrogen, and Oxygen, especially if there is an overabundance of it.

This includes Mercury, Venus, Earth (Of Course), Mars and other worlds further outward from the sun>>>>>>>>>

The small amount of Hydrogen containing molecules in the atmosphere of Venus, is thought to be under constant replenishment, as it is expected that these Hydrogen atoms should be stripped from Venus rather rapidly.

There may be water left over in the Mantle of Venus, or the solar wind may somehow embed Hydrogen into the atmosphere of Venus.
So, it may be that Venus can give a very large supply of Hydrogen over time and it has a massive supply of CO2 as well, and considerable amounts of Nitrogen.

So, with manipulations, Venus could supply enormous amounts of Cellulose for constructions in orbit, and perhaps floating in the atmosphere of Venus.

This new form of cellulose would not need huge containers to grow in as trees would, but I still value this idea: , As it may offer safety and conservation of Nitrogen while providing vast spaces to do things in.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-04-03 10:52:44)

Void · 2024-04-05 16:04:08

I suppose I should not be jumping between topics, but I guess I will.
Here are some materials to build on:
https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 60#p221360
Quote:

The above is a rough idea. 'B' is a very low g rotor that is a partial sphere.
'C' is much like this:
There could be many instances of the 'C' structure attached to the perimeter of the "Eyeball". See this topic for further description: https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=10740
My objective here is to create a power plant that works by dumping waste heat to the universe from a "Greenhouse", (Eyeball), that gives photo life support.
It is a baby idea so don't drop it on its heat because if it not perfect.
Done

https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 72#p221372

I am looking for productive systems that can serve multiple functions. Currently the idea of solar power satellites is kept separate from the idea of Space Stations/Space Habitats. I think that there could be several ways that multiple functions could be joined, to a profit.

While such structures will not need sunlight inside, it might be nice to be able to do it. In the upper drawing 'D' implies a windows assembly.

I see that as likely several layers of windows perhaps with different pressures between them. Some transparencies will block some wavelengths of light. Some mirrors which might feed light to the windows, might be selective to wavelengths reflected. On Earth experiments are being done for solar panels that are on windows. For greenhouses some wavelengths might be converted to electrical power, and some allowed though.

So, then electric power and a greenhouse. And Anti-Solar Cells may become real so then those could give electric energy as heat leaves to the universes very cold background.

I suppose that you could create a sort of boiler and turbine system but that is more complex.

In the diagram quote:

'B' is a very low g rotor that is a partial sphere.

I like the spherical rotor, as I hope it may drain water well even in a very low g spin gravity.

I have provided some radiation and impactor protection and a light diffusor. Keep in mind that this is not s construction drawing, it is only to convey ideas.

In the drawing, the maximum g force would be at 'B'. And I only want sanitary gravity. If you are growing bamboo in this thing and spray that down with a watering, I want sufficient gravity that it will clean the plants and drain well. Ideally no more than that. It might be a 1/3 bar thick atmosphere, but you still cannot afford a lot of air drag, and probably don't want high gravity anyway.

If needed, people could bring a auxiliary radiation shield with them, which might be water bags on a mobile vehicle. So, monitoring radiation they could take better shelter when needed. The gravity would be low, so the vehicle will not be heavy, but it may have inertia so it would not be good to allow it to slam into windows or other things at a high speed. And the water bags should be used as bumpers also to avoid collision damage.

I am presuming that many places in the solar system will have sufficient Hydrogen, Carbon, and Oxygen to grow things like wood. So, wood and things like wood may be of some value in the solar system.

Titan and other outer solar system objects will have it, and Venus may very well have it if it proves true that Venus has its Hydrogen replenished from some process like the interior of the planet or the solar wind.

Metals and Glasses for Venus orbits could come from asteroids. Aerobraking to orbit may be a part of a method of delivery of them.

So, then for a long time Venus could be a supply of wood like products.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-04-05 16:47:54)

Void · 2024-04-06 10:16:51

I guess this could go here as I want magic windows for orbital habitats: https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/news/ne … 7e48&ei=20
Quote:

New Material Harnesses Wasted Light to Make Solar Panels More Efficient
Scientists have developed a glass-ceramic material that can convert ultraviolet light into visible light, significantly increasing solar panel efficiency. The material also protects next-generation solar cells from degradation under strong light, with applications in both terrestrial and space industries.

Shifting UV light to longer wavelengths such as visible may be of interest for space windows also.

Last edited by Void (2024-04-06 10:18:30)

Void · 2024-04-07 10:20:06

I have had a reconsideration of what is in this topic. While I was looking at the hot side of the process, I am now thinking backwards where the radiator is the focus. The block diagram may not be wonderful but it can be referred to with words:

The Radiator being a hollow shell, may condense water, and with chemicals may grow some types of life. Light would not be necessary, but some light might be added by some means.

The water condensed into the growth shell, can be conveyed to an evaporator, which can cool a condenser of a power plant. The power plant would have a boiler with a source of heat. This could be solar thermal, or nuclear, or some other source of heat if any.

We have many potential methods to grow living things inside of the radiator.

These can grow in the dark in some cases, but might also be provided some light. Mostly though they might grow on chemicals provided.

Acetate is one we have talked about: https://www.snexplores.org/article/inno … ts-in-dark Quote:

PLANTS
No sun? No prob! A new process might soon grow plants in the dark
Electricity, not light, may one day power their growth — a special boon for space missions
a photo of a very dark green leaf covered in water droplets

That is one chemical path, that is said to work well for Yeast, Algae, and Mushrooms. In time it may be made to work with vascular plants, perhaps with a mix of light and chemicals.

If we want the radiator to work well, we may minimize radiation protection. And lower air pressure. The internal air pressure could be 1/3 bar or less at times, of Oxygen, perhaps. Lower pressure would enhance evaporation from the evaporator. While Robots could work inside of the radiator at pressures of 50-100 mbar, if you wanted to have humans inside at times, you could bring the pressure up sufficiently for them at times, or they would wear protective suits.
If you had multiple chambers of radiating heat to space, then you might put a higher pressure into just one of them at times, to facilitate human activity inside of them. It would be nice if these did not have spin gravity, but that makes reacquiring the condensate from the inner walls of the radiator need some special method other than gravity flow of condensate to a "Low" point.

We have other chemical paths to grow things also. Some organisms get their living from trace chemicals in the atmosphere. Hydrogen, CO, and Methane are among them.

Here is an article about it: https://newatlas.com/biology/air-eating … ica-artic/
Quote:

BIOLOGY
Bacteria that "eat" only air found in cold deserts around the world
By Michael Irving
August 19, 2020

And we had this show up: https://www.zmescience.com/science/news … es-itself/ Quote:

Researchers grow futuristic bacteria-based leather that dyes itself
It's plastic-free and vegan — and more sustainable than current alternatives.
Mihai AndreibyMihai Andrei April 4, 2024 in Future, Materials, News Reading Time: 6 mins read
Edited and reviewed by Zoe Gordon

Over time it seems that it may be possible to BioForm organisms that would grow in these situation as a sort of farming.

I now wonder if it would be worth it to do this on the Moon, even if you had to import a lot of Hydrogen?

An investment in imported Hydrogen might be justified if the resulting economic gain was sufficiently large.

Done for now.

I guess I am excited about a vast amount of heat engines where you could grow crops in the radiators. These might be large balloons of metal with relatively low levels of protection from the harshness of space.

Methods to get fluids for these on the Moon, may involve hard landing things like Cellulose, Paraffin Wax or other substances. Just eject them from a landing rocket prior to touchdown to the surface of the Moon.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-04-07 11:08:39)

Void · 2024-04-08 07:06:37

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/technolo … 0eac&ei=35
Quote:

The Telegraph
317.9K Followers
Solar power beamed to Earth from space could happen within decade
Story by Sarah Knapton • 3d • 3 min read

Space Solar power could be solar panels, but I am also considering a thermal path as another option.

A type of radiator that could have a sort of farming inside of the radiators. A process that may provide organic materials and even perhaps foods.

In order to have a lower pressure in a radiator, I resort to a sort of evaporative cooling resulting from a dry cooling into space from very large radiators.

Farming implies water as the solvent, so then the radiators may have a tendency to freeze up. So it may be desirable to have a variable insulation on the outside of the radiators. Birds do it with feathers which are to a degree settable to various warming or cooling situations. Mammals of course typically have fur.

But the article above does offer the "How" to get power from space to another location in space, such as the Earth's surface.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-04-08 07:14:34)

Void · 2024-04-10 08:59:19

I am still thinking about the possibility of joining a biologically productive method(s) to power systems in space. Probably producing electricity and also biomass.

Actually, I think that a sunny greenhouse coupled to a cold bio shell as a radiator, should be able to work as well or better than an OTEC installation. Probably better as the system would not have to expend large amounts of energy to pump heavy cold sea water up to the power plant, as its cold side.

But in reality, a heat engine in space could have one side compatible with biology and then other one more compatible with maximizing energy production.

So, I am focusing on the radiator side still, and leave the hot side open to whatever is workable.

I am considering the shape of a red blood cell, which is somewhat disk like and somewhat torus like.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_blood_cell
Image Quote:
Image Quote: th?id=OSK.HERO3onpBp-xDVH161A2OvgldHhtXBH9TDSCiPpm2fmB8co&w=472&h=280&c=1&rs=2&o=6&dpr=1.3&pid=SANGAM
A torus with dual concave centered faces.

My reason for this selection is the shape apparently facilitates the exchange of chemicals, such as Oxygen and CO2. So, I am hoping that it could radiate infrared photons into a shaded space environment effectively and efficiently.

These would typically be filled with fluids of some sort, my preference being that they be compatible with some sort of life. The number of variations on use are gigantic, and so I will only mention some for now.

Pause.................

If you filled two of these with water, and pressurized them, you might want tensile stringers inside to help hold the shape. If you decided to sandwich two of these together, you would have a hollow inside that could house a pressurized habitat. This scheme could provide quite a lot of protection from the space environment, for the habitat.

Various schemes for spin gravity are optionable for this.

Anyway, the interior of the radiators may house living things that most likely live on chemicals, but you could also have artificial lighting inside of it if that was a desire.

I will leave it there for the most part on the radiator side.

For the hot side I usually think of the involvement of a concave mirror or perhaps solar panels, or maybe a greenhouse, but Terraformer offered another thing here: https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 66#p221566
Quote:

Terraformer
Member
From: Ceres
Registered: 2007-08-27
Posts: 3,810
Email Website
Compact Linear Fresnel Reflector
Instead of using a curved parabolic trough, it uses a number of flat reflective strips to focus light, much as a Fresnel lens does with refraction. Supposed to reduce costs and simplify manufacture. Even if efficiency is lower, it might win out for simplicity?
"I'm gonna die surrounded by the biggest idiots in the galaxy." - If this forum was a Mars Colony

So, I like to keep options open as there could be many variations of what may be sensible and useful to do. Situations are not all the same.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-04-10 09:30:58)

Void · 2024-04-10 19:27:56

One reason I am interested in cold side, radiator habitats for farming is that the universe gets down to 4 kelvin, I think or there abouts. But with mirrors and lenses you could get hot side temperature 1000 degrees or more. But high temperatures are not compatible with life that we know of.

I am ignorant though, and perhaps less than an amateur on these so corrections are welcome.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-04-10 19:28:38)

Void · 2024-04-11 07:41:03

In these schemes the hot side can simply be "The hot side". That is, nuclear or solar could make a contribution to the hot side, perhaps even geothermal.

Greenhouses imply some sort of a transparent window arrangement. These may be likely to leak. Also, you have to condition the sunlight to be of wavelengths favorable to life processes. Greenhouses may be likely to leak air, I feel.

On the cold side, I think it is less likely that light would be piped into the radiator hollows, though windows, but let's not forbid it.

We have the claims now of growing life efficiently in the dark using Acetate, and perhaps other chemicals. Here is such an article that describes it: https://modernfarmer.com/2022/07/artifi … synthesis/ Quote:

With acetate as a substitute food source, the plants were not only able to grow in complete darkness, some even thrived. According to the study, for some of the plants, the in-the-dark process was up to 18 times more effective than photosynthesis with sunlight.
Unlike the artificial process, biological photosynthesis isn’t exactly energy efficient. According to the study, plants typically end up with just one percent of the energy found in sunlight.

Quote:

The researchers had success with food-bearing crops such as rice, jalapeños, tomatoes, green peas and lettuce, in addition to growing yeast, algae and mushroom-producing fungus.

Yeast is the one that is said to be 18 times as efficient at photosynthesis. Algae and Mushrooms seem to work as well. Vascular plants probably need modifications (Biofoming), to be productive in this scheme.

While I understand this sounds like an unpleasant place for humans, and in some cases it may be. But a scheme that I am thinking of this morning could involve both Greenhouses> Nuclear>Radiator Habitats>Very cold Radiators>Universe. Then the condensed fluids sent to the Greenhouses, to cool them and back to the start and back though again. Of course you would not need all of these stages. And also you could have high temperature solar thermal instead of nuclear as well.

Generating electricity, and then the sunlight passing through the windows of the greenhouses would supply photons for photosynthesis and heat. Electricity generated in part could manufacture Oxygen and Acetate for the farming in the radiators.

This process might then manufacture organic based materials from the CO2 and H2 that can be extracted from Venus, as an example.
CO2, (And Nitrogen) could be scooped from the atmosphere of Venus from orbit, and Hydrogen could be pulled from the Sulfuric Acid of Venus. And then when humans get to the small worlds starting with Mars, these chemicals could be processed into organic substances as well. And there may be many small worlds that could supply those chemicals.

Mushrooms can be source of food and structures, that is in its early stages of development.
Cellulose can be gotten from Bacteria, it seems, and wood can be gotten from woody plants.

There would be a very large need for Bioforming technology. My first encounter with Bioforming was from Isaac Arthur.

https://terraforming.fandom.com/wiki/Bioforming

cellulose from bacteria: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bacterial_cellulose

A possible way to alter the environment of Venus would be to take control of the chemicals in it's atmosphere.

I have started with Hydrogen. 1) Accelerate Conversion of H2SO4 into Sulfur Oxides and water. 2) Remove Hydrogen from the atmosphere of Venus.

I have now considered a problem of what to do with the Sulfur. You cannot drop it to the surface as it will Oxidize in the heat, I expect.

Can you bioform bacteria to incorporate Sulfur into Cellulose? Looking on the web, plants do work with Sulfur to some degree, and I suppose perhaps, some bacteria could.

So, then you might create floating structure, using Carbon, Oxygen, Hydrogen, and I might hope Sulfur.
A wild idea, but a maybe.

The source of Hydrogen for Venus may be continuous. It may be from the interior of the Planet or from the Solar wind. So, Venus could be a source of water and perhaps organic structures in orbit and perhaps in the clouds of Venus.

To provide Venus with metals and silicates, asteroid materials might be aero braked to the orbits of Venus, or possibly in the future the surface of Venus could actually be mined.

With some strong modification the acid bath of Venus could be modified to a more tolerable PH, by the conversion of Sulfuric Acid to useful purposes for humans and machines.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-04-11 08:26:09)

Void · 2024-04-11 10:12:06

The conversation about Sulfur, was just a side consideration. Previously I had no concept of a way to get rid of it except for the expensive route of shooting it into space. If it can be incorporated into biological solids generated from the atmosphere of Venus, then you inhibit it from participating in the formation of Sulfuric Acid.

The idea might be to convert the Sulfuric Acid clouds into floating solid structure, by incorporating them with CO2 and perhaps a bit of N2.
This does not seem be prevalent in our organisms on Earth but most of Earth has little Sulfur in circulation.

There may be no evolutionary reason that microbes would use very large amounts of sulfur, but we are considering Bioforming, where we might guide the evolution of such organisms to do it.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-04-11 10:21:28)

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