Underwater & Salt thermal storage, OTEC, Environmental Blackmail.

Void · 2024-03-08 13:55:38

OK, I have been thinking of modifications for OTEC for some time. This could involve the storage of cold under a body of water.

Also, it could involve the pumping of nutrients from deeper water to higher water levels to stimulate photosynthesis which should further stimulate the production of food which may also tend to sequester Carbon.

I also want to explore the concept that Environmental Blackmail can be a consequence of the Environmental Movements, where schemes may vary from just giving some people a feeling of power to satisfy a psychological need, but also may be even sinister in the sense of establishing an estate of power, the power to interfere with an attempt to do something productive. Then to use that power to extract payments of wealth or to remove an action from service which otherwise might have been beneficial to the human race.

This set of concepts would involve the Earth, but I think it might have application on one or more other worlds.

This set of methods would possibly be coupled to an OTEC process. It will be more complex, so then it will also have costs. A question will be if the cost/benefit ratio justifies experimentation and perhaps even adoption.

OTEC has one big cost, and that is lifting the cold water from the deeps of the ocean. Cold water is heavy in general, and also there is a certain amount of friction.

This method would utilize excess energy to store cold in places under water. Excess energy can come from various "Renewable" energy sources, and also from a lack of loading on a power producing system.

Power lines already transfer energy produced offshore to land by running under water.

So, the idea here would be to run power do an underwater heat pump system and store the cold into a container.
I first thought of phase change with ice, but I think brine might work pretty well at first and eventually perhaps ice could be involved.

I have had my eye on the nature of fresh water and temperature. The densest water is at about 39 degF / 4 degC.
Colder water is less dense, and Wamer water is less dense.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Properties_of_water
Image Quote:
This link makes the chart easier to read: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propertie … r_(en).svg

So, as a method to convey cold fresh water might work out as being lighter when near the freezing point.

I haven't shown the power line or the water pipelines. And I don't know if the cost will be justified by the results. I simply convey the idea.

By the heat pump dumping heat into the lower water that water may rise up carrying nutrients with it. This may be beneficial to promote food growth and to also in part sequester Carbon.

Keep in mind that the heat pump would be a "Load Leveling" device. It would work on excess power in a grid, when there was an excess.

This action today was stimulated by this post I made with a link to an article: http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 10#p220210 Quote:

Here is something about OTEC again: https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/compani … r-BB1jl1ZK
Quote:
Startup revives 140-year-old tech to generate energy for remote areas: ‘Marks the beginning of a renewable transition’
Story by Susan Elizabeth Turek • 2d • 3 min read
I will say good. And I would like to see it. One thing that people may not have considered is that wind could be used to bring cold heavy water up for this purpose. It might help.
Done

The idea of environmental protections, guiding best practices is good, but I am afraid I am seeing evidence that the VV's are misusing it.
(Verbal and Violent).

It is being speculated that the Neandertals were more visual in mental capabilities. I think it likely that we may retain some of that, at least some of us. They may have in part have not been sufficiently competitive to keep the VV's from eating them.

Or quite simply if not eating them contributing to their extinction.

The practice of Unkindism, has been an evolutionary force. The concept that if you can kill off the weaklings or anyone who you can kill, the human race is improved is insinuated by Darwinism.

But in reality, having the skills to trump creative people by organized conversation and the mastery of easily attainable weapons, is not as likely to benefit the human race as Darwinist thinking might suggest.

But we are quite often told how superior they are. They are very happy to tell us so.

Those who are visual need to keep an eye on them and their antics. Sometimes losing genes is indeed losing a great deal.

Giving permission to them to establish estates of interference and control is to give them an undeserved weapon, which they may damage productivity. Productivity is what keeps us not dead.

As I have said, I do approve of environmental guidance to best or better practices. But those who promote unkindism and environmental blackmail are not on my Christmas List.

Unkindism is where you justify an action against a being because they do not have the qualities that you approve of. It is not always wrong, if for a justifiable reason. We don't want to invite cannibals to dinner for instance, as we don't want to be on the menu.

Done

Obviously for a OTEC related system you could also store heat.

I am just now starting to think about a liquid air system to relate to it, but I don't yet know if it would be of any benefit. Yes, I suppose liquid air could cool the brine when you start to warm it up. But still, I am not ready with it yet.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-03-12 10:01:55)

tahanson43206 · 2024-03-08 15:12:46

This post is reserved for an index to posts that NewMars members may contribute over time.

(th)

tahanson43206 · 2024-03-08 21:21:57

For Void re OTEC

I had thought that OTEC was dead and buried, due to it's many failures over the past century or so.

However, in today's news feed on the Internet, up popped a report on OTEC successfully implemented in an ocean island.

The OTEC system turns out to be better for that particular customer than wind or solar, and it will allow saving the cost of imported oil.

You should be able to find the report, but if you don't find it quickly I'd be happy to see if i can find it again.

(th)

Void · 2024-03-08 22:15:03

Yes, that is good. Is it this one? https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/compani … r-BB1jl1ZK

I will add some notions as well. Ice is one way to phase change to store cold.

So, a possibility is to have ice inside of containers that will not burst upon freezing, from expansion. A tall order.

But then those could be in the brine which would not freeze. An alternative to brine that may not freeze would be a hydrocarbon. One that if it leaked would be less toxic than other such fluids.

Just looking for a better hot side.
Here are some possible options:
http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 66#p219566
https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/markets … 5d16&ei=12
Quote:

Company designs genius ‘island’ of floating solar panels that maximize energy by following the sun — here’s how it works
Story by Wes Stenzel • 3w • 2 min read

In this case if you used a heat pump you could cool the solar panels and heat Paraffin Wax, in containers.

And this: http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 47#p219747
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/technolo … 13ca&ei=13
Quote:

Research team develops parabolic trough solar module for hybrid electricity and heat generation
Story by Science X staff • 2w • 2 min read

In this case you would not need a heat pump to melt Paraffin Wax for thermal storage.

Now if you store heat in Parafin Wax containers you have a hot side phase change storage.

The energy differential between hot melted Parafin Wax, and frozen ice, may power a OTEC engine rather well.

And if you are driving heat into the lower fertile waters then that fertility will rise into the sunlight and promote a living cycle. This would provide food, and also sequester Carbon.

So, I think that is pretty good. It might work to some degree in some lakes as well.

Done

And I believe that the OTEC process also distills water. Let me check.

OK, yes here we are: https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/otec-tec … james-ross
Quote:

Ocean Thermal Energy Conversion (OTEC) is a technology that has the potential to provide a stable and renewable source of electricity, as well as a potential source of distilled water, for tropical regions around the world.

If you were to include a solar hot side as I have suggested, then OTEC could work in temperate areas also not just tropical areas.

Done

But you are going to have to go to war with the bad environmentalists, as they hate the human race and wish we were dead.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-03-08 22:36:17)

tahanson43206 · 2024-03-09 07:11:49

For Void ....

There may be readers who are not familiar with the history of OTEC.

Examples of OTEC failures from history would be instructive.

It would help to support words with numbers.

All OTEC concepts involve moving massive (I mean ** MASSIVE ** ) numbers of baryons from a place far from the processing facility, and since the thermal gradient is typically less than 50 degrees Fahrenheit, the energy content of each cubic meter of (usually water) is minuscule compared to gasoline (for example). The processing consumes much of the energy extracted. And all the massive hardware must be maintained, so the paltry energy produced must be further allocated to costs of maintenance.

I hope that your research will find examples of successful implementation of the OTEC concept. That would be a nice surprise in an otherwise dismal record.

(th)

Void · 2024-03-09 12:19:38

Let's start with the title: "Underwater thermal storage, OTEC,Study of Environmental Blackmail."

This topic is not exclusively about OTEC. OTEC may be included, but in that case I hope to "Soup it up".

Therefore OTEC "Failures" are not necessarily a factor that rules out a Souped Up Combinational OTEC.

If they want numbers they can look here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ocean_the … conversion
Here is something:

Thermodynamic efficiency
A heat engine gives greater efficiency when run with a large temperature difference. In the oceans the temperature difference between surface and deep water is greatest in the tropics, although still a modest 20 to 25 °C. It is therefore in the tropics that OTEC offers the greatest possibilities.[4] OTEC has the potential to offer global amounts of energy that are 10 to 100 times greater than other ocean energy options such as wave power.[43][44]
OTEC plants can operate continuously providing a base load supply for an electrical power generation system.[4]
The main technical challenge of OTEC is to generate significant amounts of power efficiently from small temperature differences. It is still considered an emerging technology. Early OTEC systems were 1 to 3 percent thermally efficient, well below the theoretical maximum 6 and 7 percent for this temperature difference.[45] Modern designs allow performance approaching the theoretical maximum Carnot efficiency.

I will say that perhaps I misunderstood your intentions as it seems that you once again cherry picked a single item, dismissed it as failed, and then tried to dismiss the entirety of this topic. But I may have that wrong perhaps you are just struggling to offer a challenge.

OTEC is a base load power source with very low efficiency. The hot side of it is only available in the tropics in some locations.
But the cold side is everywhere at depth in the oceans, and perhaps in some lakes.

Renewable energy is typically intermittent. It also needs methods of storage to bridge the gaps in production. Blending OTEC with a renewable energy may turn out to be productive in many ways, I think.

But this collection of methods might not be used as an energy producer, but perhaps to produce water and to improve the fertility of the Oceans, thus producing food and sequestering Carbon.

Here is an attempt to communicate the notions:
This device could be a net energy consumer, but may provide worthwhile product. It could consume power from a grid, but I have indicated that it might have its own "Renewable Energy Device".

Not shown in the diagram we may include a ice making process as well to throw ice into the ice water: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Icemaker
Image Quote:
Quote:

Slabs of manufactured ice at the Grimsby Ice Factory prior to being crushed, 1990

I say such an ice maker is also a heat pump.

The two objectives of this machine will be to condense water out of humid air, and to heat fertile water in the ocean deeps so that it will rise up to the sunlight and provide fertility that may produce food and sequester Carbon.

Not shown, there would probably be a battery pack to run fans when the air humidity outside is favorable. We will intend to condense water out of the air into the ice water.

Lets talk about water turnover in lakes: https://water.unl.edu/article/lakes-pon … rnover.%22

I feel that they don't quite describe how in the winter the less dense 0 degC water floats over the 4 degC bottom water.
In the mechanism of the heat pump in the diagram, we are intending to send water as close to 0 degC but to avoid freezing, up into the ice water tank. If we draw warm humid air into the ice water tank, we expect the humidity to condense out into the water. As this happens some ice water may warm up to as much as 4 degC, and will sink to the bottom of the tank, and will be drawn down into the heat pump.
So, if working properly you are getting a water pumping action from this which is assistive to the water flow we want through the heat pump.

The Heat Pump dumps heat into fertile cold water and makes it float into the sunlight.

Why do I want to use a heat pump for this? Well, why do people use heat pumps to heat homes and industrial processes. It has some chances of being of a high efficiency.

And we may if we wish put an ice making machine, to further store cold in the ice water tank.

It is my understanding that RH% (Relative Humidity) doubles for every 20 degF drop in air temperature.
OK I will convert that: About 11.1111 degC, I think.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humidity

Quote:

Global distribution of relative humidity at the surface averaged over the years 1981–2010 from the CHELSA-BIOCLIM+ data set[1]

So, RH% can vary over time and the day cycle. Winds typically come from the sea in the daytime and from the land in the nighttime, I believe.

In my next post I will describe an addition to this scheme where perhaps heat is stored in a chamber, perhaps filled with Paraffin Wax.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paraffin_wax
Quote:

Boiling Point > 370 °C (698 °F)

Here is a heat pump that might be suitable to pull heat out of surface water and pump it into a Paraffin Wax tank: https://www.pv-magazine.com/2021/08/19/ … ste%20heat.
I produces 180 degrees Celsius, it is said, which is quite below the boiling point of Paraffin Wax.

But then using an OTEC method, perhaps, we now potentially has as much as a 180 Degree Span in temperatures.

Quote from a link earlier in this post:

Thermodynamic efficiency
A heat engine gives greater efficiency when run with a large temperature difference. In the oceans the temperature difference between surface and deep water is greatest in the tropics, although still a modest 20 to 25 °C. It is therefore in the tropics that OTEC offers the greatest possibilities.[4] OTEC has the potential to offer global amounts of energy that are 10 to 100 times greater than other ocean energy options such as wave power.[43][44]

So, there may be hopes of profits involved in some of these concepts. If adopted, then companies that deal in Hydrocarbons for sale, might instead make Paraffin Wax in bulk.

Done

There, how do you like the numbers?

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-03-09 13:29:37)

Void · 2024-03-09 19:58:43

I am considering ocean deserts now. Some study to do.

This is a wonderful video: https://www.bing.com/videos/riverview/r … &FORM=VIRE
Quote:

Oceans are Deserts

This is an old article that has a good map: https://www.earthdata.nasa.gov/learn/se … of-deserts
Image Quote: ocean_desert_3.jpg?VersionId=b.tOD1iHxx.IM_UoBP3.hmkUMI0NLqnj&itok=xOp55V-m
Quote:

Phytoplankton are microscopic ocean plants that form the base of ocean ecosystems; they are so abundant that they are visible from space. Here, average chlorophyll from 1998 through 2006 is shown in green and indicates areas of high biological productivity. (Courtesy SeaWiFS Project/NASA GSFC and GeoEye, Inc.)

The title of this topic being: "Underwater thermal storage, OTEC,Study of Environmental Blackmail.", usually we think of doing something near land.

But there is a vast area of ocean that has sunlight and water, but not nutrients in the sunlit surface waters.

This can be of interest: https://www.bing.com/videos/riverview/r … ORM=VRDGAR

And this one also: http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 23#p218823

Two of the ways of accessing deep ocean nutrients are to raise and low plants on frames so that they get nutrients and are then lifted to be exposed to sunlight, and the notions have been promoting here to heat deep water and have it rise up with nutrients.

So, then there would need to be large establishments in international waters, to use the resources that are potentially emergent with technology from the raw materials.

Clearly such could grow food and sequester Carbon. And also, potentially make fresh water and generate electricity. The is some question as to if you could maintain significant populations of people in those areas to make this all work. But we are going to have humanoid robots. Perhaps some version of them could do the work.

Which industries use the most water?
https://www.thomasnet.com/insights/whic … ost-water/

It is obvious that food production is one such, and this plan already plans to grow seaweed and fish.

But "Textiles and Garments" Robotic systems out in the ocean might do this and take the pressure off of land water supplies. Of course I am anticipating getting the fresh water from the air, as I have suggested in a previous post.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-03-09 20:37:50)

Void · 2024-03-10 11:41:30

Floating Solar Panels: Floating solar panels:
https://www.msn.com/en-us/weather/topst … 056e4&ei=7

Solar Float: https://www.solarfloat.com/en-us

I confess, putting installations into the deep oceans will be a very large task. Let's take some baby steps along the way.

Let's consider salt lakes.

Start with the Salton Sea, and then consider "The Great Salt Lake", "The Aral Sea", "The Dead Sea" and others.

Here are the floating solar panels again: https://interestingengineering.com/inno … -movements
Image Quote:

The panels have been said to provide shade of about 60%???

Let's arrange that the solar panels can be radiators also when needed. A dry cooling, probably at night. To work the best, it might be better if they were vertical.

Previously I would have thought to store heat at the bottom of the lake in salt gradients. But lets consider the opposite.
Let's make the lake cold. The surface can stay reasonably warm. Just by shading the evaporation will be reduced. And if you cool the surface waters a bit more the evaporation may be less still.

If you pull heat from the solar panels when they are hot, you could put that into tanks of "Paraffin Wax", or some other containment.
In the night you may cool the lake waters using the panels as heat exchangers to dry cool the water.

You could go so far as to make tanks of ice water over the solar panel arrays: http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 43#p220243

Possibly with ice in them.

You could then pass air which may be humid from above the lake into those chambers to condense fresh water.
Then if you have a low toxicity, use for the water, use it and then dispense of it on the top of the lake. Fresh water will float on the brine.

The Dead Sea blooms if there is some rainfall. Otherwise, it is too salty for good growth of life.

If you want to you can make condensed brine and drop it to the bottom of the lake and put the fresh water on top.

So, then the lake can have fish again, just fish that don't go too deep.

And yes, if you have hot Paraffin Wax and cold ice water, you might use OTEC technology to tap the situation as a power supply.

Let some of the light into the lake and allow the surface to bloom.

Swell the lake up in this manner. This then allows you to have even more floating solar arrays.

So, keep in mind that it is a battery of sorts, that may be somewhat efficient if it can use heat pumps to generate the thermal spreads from proximate sources of heat and cold.

Done

And yes, the other salty lakes that don't drain into the ocean, do them also. Aquafarming in the deserts may be more efficient than dumping fresh water onto dry desert dirt to grow crops. Reconsider what you are doing with your water.

Imagine the dead sea with a layer of fresh water over its surface, rather not as salty. Fish can breed in water about 2 x that of sea water.

For rivers that run into the sea, why don't you just impound the water and make more reservoirs and cover them partially. with solar panels. Eating fish may be a better option than eating bugs, which our elites seem to have planned for us.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-03-10 12:14:39)

Void · 2024-03-10 12:19:50

In the previous post I suggested making a change in salt lakes where the upper water is less salty and the lower water more salty and cold.

The Baltic Sea is a bit like that. It has Oxygen in the waters on top and is anoxic down below.

Now make your lake like that if it is suitable, and dump biochar in the bottom of the lake. It cannot burn, and has no Oxygen, and Biochar is hard to pull Carbon from.

Biochar:
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/technolo … 11dd&ei=12
Quote:

Waste streams flowing out of households and industries are often rich in carbon compounds. These can be trapped when biosolids are segregated from sewage water but often end up in landfills, where they are processed by microorganisms and release carbon into the atmosphere.
PYROCO is the commercial name given to pyrolysis technology that the researchers at RMIT use to convert these biosolids into a charcoal-like substance called biochar. In this technique, biosolids are treated at high temperatures without oxygen to create a stable form of carbon that is not released into the atmosphere.

So, now you grow fish in the lake people eat them. Maybe you can grow some plants as well, and people can eat them. The people flush the toilet. Then you make Biochar and dump it into the bottom of your lake which has anoxic waters. The Biochar will be sterilized of microbes by the process and it is also possible that the Pyrolysis process will generate some kind of a hydrocarbon fuel.

So, there is your Carbon Sequestration. This is generative Sequestration, not degenerative Sequestration where you get less out than you put in to do the Sequester.

And if you get into an ice age somehow, you know where the Carbon is so you can burn it to warm the planet back up.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-03-10 12:27:25)

Void · 2024-03-10 12:40:03

I like this: https://www.bing.com/videos/riverview/r … &FORM=VIRE

Done

Void · 2024-03-10 14:47:17

So, I have also been wondering how to integrate a Liquid Air Battery into the system I previously described: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fjERw-Ol-_s

A salt lake could have bottom water that was relatively cold and upper fresh water that is a bit warmer. So those thermal reservoirs might be useful in a Liquid Air system.

When you might boil the liquid air, you might first cool the lower brine water and then take more heat from higher layers, and then finally perhaps a tank holding heat as described in the video.

But it could use more thinking and better understanding of the processes.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-03-10 14:49:58)

Void · 2024-03-10 16:13:50

I am not disappointed but very happy that this showed up: https://www.bing.com/videos/riverview/r … &FORM=VIRE Quote:

This Tower Turns Ocean Fog Into FRESH Drinking Water!
YouTube
Two Bit da Vinci

The video is about 11 months old.

So, I think my notions could work for water as well.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-03-10 16:16:12)

Void · 2024-03-10 16:56:44

The Salton sea is only 15 meters deep at the most. So, that's almost 50 feet, so it has a bit of depth.

In order to create a difference in salinity between the surface and bottom water, wave action has to be reduced to reduce mixing.

Floating solar panels might manage that:

Here are the floating solar panels again: https://interestingengineering.com/inno … -movements
Image Quote:

It should still the wind and quiet the waves.

So, if it was desired to separate the waters so that a cold brine would be on the bottom and a less briny warmer layer on the top, it may work.

Water only twice as salty as sea water being on the surface some fish might survive in it. Of course, this is kicking the can down the road as you would simply be stuffing the salt to the bottom of the Salton Sea. Salt build up would continue. But you could buy some time. And the water level might rise as the solar panels would shade the water. If you were really smart you would send some water into the sea instead of pouring it on dry soil. But I understand the farmers want all of that water.

But this lake would become a very large power plant with energy storage. And the bigger the surface the more production of energy and fish.

A sensible solution would be to work a deal with Mexico to allow a canal that would flow sea water down into the Salton Sea during the night, generating power and to then flow water back up the canal during the day.

With the use of solar panels as radiators at night, the waters of the Salton Sea could be cooled to lower evaporation. And as said before the solar panels would likely shade the lake waters during daylight.

On the other hand, if the RH% is high in a specific period of time the radiators might be used to condense water out of the air.

I have some similar notions for other inland salty water places, not so much sea water but the rest of it. Although the dead sea might be connected by boring tunnels to allow water flow at night and pumping uphill during the day. It could be done gradually to not dump too much salt into the sea at one time.

The reason I mention such things other than the Salton Sea, is that I think there would be a lot of resistance to doing sensible things in California, other places might develop the techniques and then California could pick them up.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-03-10 17:16:41)

Void · 2024-03-11 10:20:12

I have this mischief going again today: https://www.lakeshoresup.com/2015/04/15 … e-ice-age/
Quote:

Great Basin Pluvial Lakes: Gifts of the Ice Age
April 15, 2015 By Sean Adlao

Image Quote:

I fully appreciate the needs of the farmers that use fresh water for irrigation. So, I think that the potential to do what I am saying will be greatly attenuated by the inertia of what has already been done with the land and water in the great basin.

But, I will look into an alternate great basin.

Existence of lakes is dependent on the balance between precipitation and evaporation, with also the possibility that aquifers may also absorb water or yield water.

I don't seem much hope at this time of increasing precipitation, but the alter evaporation is possible.

This can be a tool to reduce evaporation and cause such lakes to grow in size: Floating solar panels might manage that:

Here are the floating solar panels again: https://interestingengineering.com/inno … -movements
Image Quote:

It should still the wind and quiet the waves.

Environmentalists may get mad about it but in reality if you did not increase the rate of evaporation, then some parts of the lake could remain open for wildlife to use, and yet the size of the lake would swell up.

Of course this could risk flooding inhabited land. As I have said there would be some inertia that gets in the way of this. Retaining dikes might be used in some cases perhaps. Something like the Netherlands perhaps.

Shading will cool the water, and salt tends to absorb water vapor to a degree. As I understand it the Great Salt Lake gets a lot of its water from direct condensation in the wintertime where the cold salt water absorbs, moisture from the air.

If it were possible to use the solar panels as dry radiators, this could cool off the later water also in the winter and in the nighttime's.
1) Solid State: some heat would transfer by conduction from the water into the panels.
2) Convection. You could allow a liquid convection in tubes in the solar panel to conduct heat out of the lake waters into the air.
3) Forced convection. The same as #2 but with pumping.
4) Forced Evaporation. In that case you would pull a vacuum on the brine and produce steam to forcibly condense and also a cold brine concentrate to release into the lake. Such water should not be removed to irrigate dry land farms. Instead it should be treated after use and returned to the lake if not too toxic.

There could be a question of if people could live on these platforms.

Cold salty water is more likely to pull moisture out of the air than warm fresh water.

There is some concern about the accumulation of salt in these lakes. But if you want to swell these lakes back up you want the salt.

But if you don't want to increase the saltiness of the area of the lake, I think I may have something more than simply transporting it back to the sea. Build things with it.

Returning to the Salton sea, could you build things with the excess salt? Of course if it rains or the humidity gets too high the salt will melt.
So, you would need to protect the salt structures somehow.

Query: "Make buildings out of salt"
General Response: https://www.bing.com/search?q=Make+buil … F6&pc=U531

You can check it out yourself.

Here is one: https://www.notechmagazine.com/2016/02/ … -salt.html
Quote:

NO TECH MAGAZINE
We believe in progress and technology
Search this website …
Building With Salt

Image Quote:

I would suggest thermal storage in salt structures.

Also, if you could make a vacuum chamber with salt, then you could flow moist air though the structure and then pull a vacuum on it to get the water vapor out.

We might think to do some of this on Mars as well, as salt is available.

So, the saltiness of the Salton Sea is a gift not a curse.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-03-11 10:55:07)

Calliban · 2024-03-11 10:54:46

Void, this is an interesting new thread. Using a heat pump to gather thermal energy from seawater is certainly something that could be useful for heating coastal cities.

One problem with OTEC as it is traditionally envisaged, is that even in the tropics, the temperature difference between the warm surface water and cold deep water, is limited to 30°C. In most places, it will be lower. You correctly raise the problem of the energy cost of pumping cold water from depth. A low temperature difference means low efficiency of conversion of heat flow from hot to cold. So the pumping cost becomes very burdensome as efficiency decreases.

But there are other problems. To harvest the energy, the water must flow through heat exchangers, where warm water is used to boil a fluid like ammonia and generate gas at pressure. Cold water is used to condense the ammonia gas at the other side of a turbine. It is that pressure difference across the turbine that generates power. But there also has to be a temperature drop across the heat exchangers for them to work. If the temperature difference between hot and cold is already small, then those heat exchangers are going to eat into an already slim temperature difference. You can reduce the temperature drop by making the heat exchanger tube area larger. But heat exchangers are often expensive components. So it is efficiency versus capital cost. Then we have the turbine itself. A small temperature difference translates into a small pressure ratio. That means the turbine ends up being large for the amount of power it generates. And it cannot use a steam cycle. It must use ammonia or an organic fluid like propane or butane. That pushes up cost even more, by introducing toxicity and flammability problems.

This explains why we don't see any OTEC powerplants. Low power density in the generation cycle would make it capital intensive. But I think harvesting direct heat from sea water could have useful applications. Sea temperatures don't vary as much as air temperatures do with season. If we can store warm water offshore, using a seawater immersed heat pump, I think there could be value in that. But the storage tank woukd need to be either very large or well insulated to avoid heat loss into the water.

Void · 2024-03-11 10:58:58

That is all true. The difficulty of working with ocean locations is large.

That is why I am attempting to work with ideas in places like the great basin first. But experiments could do good things.

Yes, for your wind you could store peak energy as hot something. I kind of like Paraffin Wax.

You then don't send peak power though the power lines to land. Also you might bring peak power from the land on the same lines to help melt the Paraffin Wax.

Now if the hot reservoir is on the sea floor for instance, you can cover it in soil to help insulate it and the soil will hold some of the heat also.

Now you have something hot in cold water. You can do OTEC on the sea floor and forget about pumping heavy cold water to a surface installation. You would have a submarine power plant.

Your Norwegian neighbors have something that may help: https://norwegianscitechnews.com/2021/0 … pump-ever/

But you might also use resistance heating to get the wax hotter beyond that.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paraffin_wax
Boiling point is: > 370 °C (698 °F)
I don't know if increased pressure could raise that up but that is pretty hot alright.
The heat pump might only get you up to 180 degC.

Even at 180, if the water outside was at 20 degC, you have 160 degrees C of thermal span.

That might be workable.

And as the water is heated when you run a generator on the span, you then will cause nutrients to be lifted into the sunlight.
But the North Sea is already fertile.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-03-11 11:11:07)

Void · 2024-03-12 09:57:25

I don't want to lose this article so I will make a post. I found this on a break for coffee: https://theplanjournal.com/article/salt … ortunities
Quote:

Salt as a Building Material: Current Status and Future Opportunities
Vesna Pungercar
Florian Musso

I am interested in creating large simple thermal collectors out of salt, I suppose in deserts. But the idea of salt to build things is also interesting. Perhaps I will have to change the topic title.

Done

And so, I did change the title.

Done

There are bits and pieces of information about the Great Salt Lake: https://www.bing.com/videos/riverview/r … &FORM=VIRE

A different sort of information, but maybe of use.

For now, I am just collecting information.

5% to 28% salt in the lake, average 12%
Because of salt the lake never freezes. (That is important if you are going to have floating solar panels, which rotate to follow the sun).

Done

This is another source of information: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0vsOtMwZsn4
The Aral Sea has similar problems.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-03-12 11:09:18)

Void · 2024-03-12 17:32:52

The problems of evaporating salt lakes, might be in part addressed by the above.

Since we now have means to induce chemosynthesis.

https://www.snexplores.org/article/inno … ts-in-dark
Quote:

PLANTS
No sun? No prob! A new process might soon grow plants in the dark
Electricity, not light, may one day power their growth — a special boon for space missions

Acetate it seems is at least useful to grow Algae, and I presume Cyanobacteria, Yeast, and Mushrooms.

I am supposing that even if brine waters were covered totally by solar power, and light blocked the water could support the growth of a sort of crop. In reality some like might likely be let into the water.

So, evaporation could be blocked to a large degree.

Sourcing materials to build such structures would be a problem, and also corrosion and maintenance of such structures would be a cost. Methods to coat a structure with calcium compounds might help with the corrosion problems. Electrical currents might facilitate such a coating process.

I am not sure how this would play out.

If done to the Dead Sea, desalination of water could allow protected tanks of less salty water to do this in.

So, then in the case of the G.S.Lake, and the Aral Sea, the toxic soil could be covered over with brine, but the water would support solar power and a form of agriculture.

A low form is Algae, Cyanobacteria, and Yeast. I we could learn how to comb that out of the waters that would be efficient to get biomass.

Last edited by Void (2024-03-12 18:05:54)

Void · 2024-03-12 18:24:44

I was unable to finish the previous post due to ISE. Here is the rest of it:

Brine shrimp would be the next level. They do well in less salty water but tend to get eaten by fish in that case. So they do better if the water is too salty for fish.

Fish, if you had some enclosures with fish then I guess you could feed Algae, Cyanobacteria, Yeast, and Brine Shrimp to them. In all honesty, I will be willing to end the eating of animals, but not unless we can offer good substitute and in quantity.

Done.

Is it possible that ISE is a leftist censorship ploy?

I posted something they would not like elsewhere so, maybe, as we have seen them do other such things on twitter and other places.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-03-12 18:26:24)

Void · 2024-03-13 07:06:42

I am going to admit that floats in briny water will have corrosion problems.

Getting the materials would be a big problem, I know it will not be considered sensible, but I have begun to wonder if materials from the Moon could be brought to the Earth. Using one time heat shields made of Lunar materials, and the to splash into an ocean and be recovered from there.

The idea is that if you have large amounts of solar energy on the Moon and in space, and if you have autonomous robot labor on the Moon, then is the expense as much as we would think it would be?

And I have thought more about building thermal storage devices of salt from salt lakes. I think they might be able to pull water out of the air.

The melting point of Sodium Chloride is said to be 801 degC. Of course, that is not the only kind of salt in brines of bodies of water.

My idea is not to melt the salts at all, I just wanted to get a feel for how hot the interior of a salt chamber could be heated to.

This is of course an illustration, not a building plan:

I expect that the salt will pull in moisture on its outside that that the humidity will travel into the hot interior where the air being hot could absorb lots of moisture from the salt.

As you would draw air out of the heated chamber and cool it, I expect to see moisture condense. So, if this works, then you may extract heat and moisture at the same time. I don't think it would be necessary to draw a vacuum, but that is a possibility, perhaps on Mars.

It is not that unusual for the night air on Mars to approach 70% to 100% RH at times.

Method to heat the interior would perhaps be radiant heat, on Mars.

So, lake salt could be a resource on Earth as well, if you can keep it from liquifying from atmospheric moisture, rain/snow, and ground water. And the sea will provide all the salt we could want, I expect.

Well, this is convenient: https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/technolo … r-BB1jP8Wh Quote:

This company intends to be the first to mine the moon
Story by Christian Davenport • 1h • 5 min read

It cannot be denied that space could provide the energy to manipulate the materials into more useful forms.

Done

Well, we will see if they use Elon time also: https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/world/ru … r-BB1jMF5m Quote:

Russia and China announce plan to build shared nuclear reactor on the moon by 2035, 'without humans'
Story by Harry Baker • 18h • 3 min read

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-03-13 07:49:57)

Void · 2024-03-13 09:34:55

I anticipate that the process would work quite a bit like a solar still: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_still
Image Quote:

But a condensation process is needed either inside the salt cavity or outside of it.

Water dissolves into the salt from the cooler outside and may evaporate from the interior surface. Heat inside may help also I think it possible that UV light might help to pluck water molecules from the inside surface.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-03-13 09:38:06)

Void · 2024-03-14 11:36:48

A member, Terraformer, has started a very good new topic: http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=10727
I do not wish to corrupt the development of it so I offer support as a bystander.

Power from tidal is the center of that topic. But here I want to talk about what benefits could come from ocean currents.

Ocean Currents as the motive force: http://large.stanford.edu/courses/2014/ … al%20power.

Such by some means might allow the improvement of the fertility of the deserts of the oceans by moving nutrients from deep up to the sunlight.

Mixers which would mix warm surface waters with cold nutrient rich waters, might do it. Or heat pumps would produce near freezing water which would sink and warmer water which would rise.

Frankly I have also thought of using fission reactors to do similar.

But Terraformer is working with Tidal.

If Carbon capture can be improved, then more burning processes can be tolerated in the future.
Of course, eco-crazies will not like this post at all as they simply wish we were dead.

It is possible that submarine devices might make fuels for use, and so be a sort of renewable fuel source.

Good.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-03-14 11:46:13)

Void · 2024-03-18 10:23:18

In this topic I have moved towards inland bodies of water. Here are some interesting articles that get a little closer to real devices working today:

This one has a nice video in it:
https://solarpowersystems.org/blog/floa … he-future/
Quote:

The Ascendance of Floating Solar Farms in Powering the Future
February 20, 2024
0 Blog

This one appears to be from a vendor:
https://halcolenergy.com.au/solar-news/ … ar-panels/
Quote:

A COMPLETE GUIDE TO FLOATING SOLAR PANELS

Although I am very interested in this for Earth, I have now an interest for methods for Mars as well.

I think that now, a notion for Mars could be a brine pond covered with a plastic bubble, and a raft floating in that.

Solar panels on the raft. The bubble may be easier to clean than solar panels. On occasion the bubble could be changed. The brine that the raft floated on could be very briny and very cold, so boiling might not be a big problem.

So, then this could be sun following.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-03-18 10:51:23)

Calliban · 2024-03-18 16:41:09

Can you imagine the mess that an Atlantic storm or a tropical cyclone would make of a floating solar farm? This has always been the problem with wave power. The wave machines take an absolute beating from storm waves. They have to be over-engineered to such an extent that it renders them uneconomical. Offshore wind turbines take a beating in storms, and it limits their fatigue life. But a floating structure that has to move with the waves is going to take an even greater beating. The sea is cruel and does not forgive.

Void · 2024-03-18 20:36:48

I agree that solar cells are probably not suitable for the deep stormy seas.

But I have been moving towards giant robots, that can completely submerge.
Such could use wave power, thermal power, wind power, nuclear power and solar power (Solar Thermal).

Where I am at with that notion is a nuclear heart. It would need to be the very best per safety that can be constructed. This would be so that if it needs to hide from a storm, it could submerge and still have power.

When convenient it would tap into other types of power.

It would not anchor to the sea floor, but would drift in one of the five Gyres of the oceans.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ocean_gyre
Image Quote:

These Gyres typically seem to hold some of the ocean deserts.

Yes, I think that is true: https://www.earthdata.nasa.gov/learn/se … of-deserts
Image Quote: ocean_desert_3.jpg?VersionId=b.tOD1iHxx.IM_UoBP3.hmkUMI0NLqnj&itok=xOp55V-m
Quote:

Phytoplankton are microscopic ocean plants that form the base of ocean ecosystems; they are so abundant that they are visible from space. Here, average chlorophyll from 1998 through 2006 is shown in green and indicates areas of high biological productivity. (Courtesy SeaWiFS Project/NASA GSFC and GeoEye, Inc.)

These Robots might make liquid fuels for us, perhaps by using pyrolysis on organic matter, and also creation biochar to sequester Carbon.

Also, if they can attach the nutrients of the deeps with the sunshine of the upper layers this can create food and biomass to conduct pyrolysis on.

So, in a way it is a form of solar energy as you would be enabling life to generate biomass from sunlight.

Pyrolysis could be done with electric ovens, or solar concentrating mirrors.

So, go down a bit when it is stormy and then such machines might survive a big storm.

What do you think?

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-03-18 20:50:31)

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