Google Meet Collaboration - Meetings Plus Followup Discussion

tahanson43206 · 2025-02-09 07:35:10

Today is Google Meeting Day for NewMars....

if present plans hold, we will open the Waiting Room a bit before 1 AM UTC, 7 PM Houston, 8 PM New Hampshire.

Reminder for optical discussion: The paper at the link below is from 2008 - Use of optical cable to feed thermal process:

https://www.lpi.usra.edu/meetings/leagi … ra4011.pdf

Solar Thermal Power System for Oxygen
Production from Lunar Regolith:
Engineering System Development

Topics for this week might include:

Optical fiber discoveries
Space tugs, Three Phases, other items
SpaceNut's house project (if he is able to stop in)
kbd512's analysis of air forces
Welding not needed but what instead?
New items

(th)

tahanson43206 · 2025-02-09 17:33:34

Equipment check ... Equipment and software seem to be working.

I am unsure if anyone is going to want to think about space tonight ... The US is putting on the Super Bowl, and much of the Nation's attention is going to be focused there. We have not seen any of our European members, and the late hour in Europe is an understandable reason.

I've been invited to watch the Super Bowl with friends, and am planning to head over shortly.

I'm the only Admin set up to host the Google Meeting at this point.

Decision time! I'll plan to return home to see if anyone is in the Waiting Room at the top of the hour.

If no one is present, I'll assume the Super Bowl has priority.

(th)

tahanson43206 · 2025-02-09 19:00:17

Waiting Room is open

I'm not expecting anyone but to be consistent, the meeting needs to open every week.

The Philadelphia Eagles are ahead 17 to 0 ...

kbd512 dropped in .. we're off and running ...

GW joined ... We ended up with a ** very ** interesting discussion.

We started with a deep dive into ion propulsion, and the document at the link below will provide a glimpse of the knowledge available.

https://electricrocket.org/2019/259.pdf

Document ... in space propulsion ... electric propulsion

Update later: The Eagles ended up with a solid 40 and the Chiefs reached 22 during the final five minutes.

Some feedback I picked up on the way home was that this was a blowout rather than a slugfest, and a bit disappointing on that score.

However, another way of looking at this is that Pittsburgh was simply up for this game, and everything they tried worked.

The week ahead in NewMars forum is sure to bring new surprises as members investigate areas of interest, and share glimpses with the rest of us via posts.

(th)

tahanson43206 · 2025-02-15 20:33:15

The Google Meeting for Sunday February 16th 2025 is on schedule.

If all goes to plan, the waiting room will open a bit before 1 AM UTC, 7 PM Houston, 8 PM New Hampshire.

(th)

tahanson43206 · 2025-02-16 18:56:23

The Google Meeting is set up for this evening...

The Waiting room is open.

Time is 55:39

GW Johnson is already here.

kbd512 joined and we were off to the races!

Post meeting report:

This was another interesting and productive meeting.

We covered several topics in which kbd512 is a participant, and several in which GW is a participant.

Two really interesting ideas came out of the meeting, and probably others that I missed.

First, kbd512 took up Calliban's Steam Balloon idea and after a look at GW's Steam Image, kbd512 thought of using a Fresnel lense to heat water to keep a steam balloon aloft. We had started down the track of using photovoltaics to heat water to keep the balloon aloft, when kbd512 suggested just cutting out the middle man. The system would depend upon solar energy to stay aloft, so there would be a concern about the day/night cycle on Earth.

The group considered the use of microwaves to heat water inside a balloon. That system could probably be used to achieve a Guiness Book of Records listing, for whatever that is worth.

GW's cows are safely back in the pasture after finding a way out. Fortunately these were more cooperative critters than might have been the case.

kbd512 brought us up to date on his study of optical systems.

The second idea is related to the diameter of optical fiber needed to collect power from a solar sail system. I gather that there is a limit to how much power an optical fiber can carry, so (hopefully) kbd512 will be updating his post about that

(th)

tahanson43206 · 2025-02-21 11:26:15

We have another Google Meeting coming up.

We have multiple topics already in motion to discuss.

PhotonBytes recently introduced an interesting idea that might be fun to consider.

PhotonBytes created a topic with amusing title of "15 days to Mars using Chemical rockets" (or words to that effect).

I'd be interested to know if such a flight is possible, assuming the gross national product of the world's Nations were allocated to the effort.

I asked Google for figures on the distance to Mars:

How far away Mars is from Earth depends on where the two planets are in their orbits. The distance from Earth to Mars can be anywhere from 33.9 million miles (54.6 million km) to 250 million miles (401 million km). On average, the distance is about 140 million miles (225 million km) from Earth to Mars.
Distance from Earth to Mars | Facts & Measurement - Study.com
Study.com
https://study.com › ... › General Science Lessons

Mars recently approached as close to Earth as it is going to get in the current cycle. Today the distance is 120,584,000 km.

I asked Google to find a calculator to determine the velocity needed to reach Mars in 15 days if the distance is 120,000,000 km...

The answer came back as 92.6 km/s

The velocity of a space craft at Mars would need to be reduced by nearly the same amount, but the time needed for deceleration would subtract from the 15 days for the flight.

In addition, the time to accelerate would detract from the time available to travel at full velocity.

Thus, the velocity needed in the coasting phase would be far above 92.6 km/s

This is certainly an interesting speculation.

A Python program should be able to perform the calculations needed to study/evaluate various flight plans.

Perhaps programs already exist that perform this or similar calculations.

One possible outcome is that chemical energy simply cannot perform this feat, if it is implemented with the very best hardware humans can create.

(th)

tahanson43206 · 2025-02-22 07:44:40

The recent contribution of PhotonBytes to the forum, of a 15 Day flight scenario Earth-to-Mars inspired GW Johnson to take a look at the problem.
http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 22#p229922

If we assume an advanced propulsion system (such as fusion) then the scenario looks quite realistic. I am hoping this topic might be added to the agenda for the upcoming meeting on Sunday.

We also can look forward to an update on kbd512's research which might include (but is not limited to) optical systems with fiber to collect photons.

In last week's meeting we reviewed the power carrying capacity of fiber. It is much less than I had thought, but the difficulty of sending photons from various points on the outstretched collection panels can be resolved by adding fiber. The result will be increasing thickness of the optical delivery system as we approach the central spine of the system. The thickness of the collection system depends upon the power carrying capacity of an individual fiber, and while that information was included in last week's meeting, I lost track of it.

Given the data provided last week, and given the assumption of 1000 watts/square-meter at LEO, we should be able to compute the number of fibers needed to bring the photons collected by a 1 centimeter wide collection strip to the Central Spine. I am looking forward to learning what that number will be.

It should be possible to compute the dimensions of the photon collection system with confidence, based upon the data presented last week.

It is highly likely other topics will come up ...

(th)

tahanson43206 · 2025-02-23 07:32:00

The regularly scheduled Google Meeting is on track for 1 AM UTC, 7 PM Houston, 8 PM New Hampshire.

We have a number of items active in the forum over the past week, in addition to ongoing items such as the optical research by kbd512.

GW Johnson has been making progress on a number of fronts.

PhotonBytes has contributed several surprising ideas to the mix.

Spaniard has begun an effort to revise the measure of time used by scientists, astronomers and engineers. This should be interesting.

Terraformer and Void have been discussing a variety of life supporting structures that might be designed for remote locations in the Solar system.

Update: I have extended an invitation for a member of the NSS North Houston chapter to attend this evening.

(th)

tahanson43206 · 2025-02-23 18:38:56

System Check was necessary on this occasion. Zoom was holding the camera from a previous session. There may be a better way to persuade Zoom to let go, but to save time I just rebooted. The system is working now, and I'll be opening the waiting room a few minutes before the hour.

It is 38:15 UTC right now

GW Johnson has produced a (small) flood of new documents about the asteroid and about the Orion propulsion system.

The waiting room is open at 57:57 UTC

Post meeting report:

We were joined by a member of the North Houston NSS chapter. GW Johnson was delayed , so our guest left.

kbd512 reviewed his research on optical coupling for a space vessel, and that work will continue into next week.

GW arrived and we were off to the races once again. We reviewed slides GW has prepared for the asteroid topic and for the 15 days to Mars topic.

A detail from the 15 days discussion is that we (or at least I) learned that the shaped charge for the Orion pulsed propulsion system is quite different from what I was imagining. The drawing already posted on the forum in the 15 days to Mars Any Method topic shows a small object to the right of the pusher plate of a space vessel. That object has a gray/brown color on the left side, and a bright red box on the right.

The bright red box is the fission component, and the gray/brown blob is a supply of mass that the electromagnetic wave from the nuclear explosion is going to accelerate toward the pusher plate. That is the mass that I was looking for that is needed to propel the ship.

***
We went into great detail examining the asteroid intercept diagrams. I've had difficulty understanding the relative velocities in play in this situation, but made some progress in the highly interactive format of a live online meeting. The bottom line is that all existing space faring nations able to put a probe on Mars will have the capability to put a probe on this asteroid as it flies by in 2028.

I am interested in seeing that capability utilized to make a serious effort to mine the asteroid of material it contains, and direct that material to a location where it would be useful, such as the Moon. Since we do not know the nature of the asteroid at this point, it is pure speculation to assume it is a stony rubble pile. On the other hand, the chances it is a stony rubble pile are greater than even, because (my understanding is) the greater number of random objects in the Solar system are stony rubble piles.

(th)

tahanson43206 · 2025-03-02 07:09:30

Today is Google Meeting day for NewMars.

If current plans hold we'll open the waiting room a few minutes before 1 AM UTC - 7PM Houston - 8 PM New Hampshire

Topics that may be of interest include:

Calliban's trip to the Netherlands
kbd512's work on Optical Plane Deep Space vessel
GW Johnson's new video to Elevator Pitch for Orbits course
Renewed interest in Orion propulsion system (new book by George Dyson)
Many other possible topics from recent NewMars posts or other sources

(th)

tahanson43206 · 2025-03-02 17:42:00

Equipment check:

Hardware, software and the Internet appear to be working.

Plans remain on track to open the waiting room at 1 AM UTC.

Sophia the chicken will not be joining the meeting, I am told.

We might be lucky enough to get a glimpse of KT the cat.

Update at 00:58 UTC

The waiting room is open.

Post meeting report ...

This was a lively meeting!

We opened with kbd512's work on an optically powered deep space vessel.

When GW arrived we took a look at his Elevator Pitch for his course on Ellipses >> Orbital ellipses >> Analyzing and explaining asteroid ellipses.

kbd512 has a valuable suggestion that the marketing might be modifed for younger customers. The present version is designed for the kind of audience that would be in attendence at an NSS meeting. kbd512 suggested adding color and motion for a younger audience. I think this is a most helpful suggestion.

Then we branched into discussion of how kbd512 can design his home built aircraft and more importantly, get back to work on it, despite all the other demands on his time.

After that we took on the high energy topic of the Orion pulsed explosion space vessel, and how the concept might be updated to have value in mining an asteroid. The discussion branched into how to process materials found in space to make a massive space ship with heavy metals, and the high energy happened when we considered a NASA paper that estimated it will take 50 years to be able to make anything out of metal in space.

Now that the meeting is over, and I've had a chance to think about the discussion, I think excellent points were made on both sides of the question of timing. The NASA estimate of 50 years may be about right, for a metal smelting plant to go into operation, but on the other hand, the knowledge needed is available in what humans have learned on Earth over centuries.

I suspect that if an entrepreneur like Jeff Bezos or others in the space business were to fund a team to build a small scale test smelter for launch next year, that could be done. I hope that happens, because the sooner humans begin to build up knowledge of how to work with materials in vacuum and microgravity using solar energy for melting, the sooner we can learn how to separate elements from each other or to merge them into useful alloys.

(th)

tahanson43206 · 2025-03-09 06:26:16

Today is Google Meeting day for NewMars...

Thanks to Daylight Savings Time in the US, we are back to midnight UTC, which is still a stretch for our European members.

A flyer announcing GW Johnson's class on orbital ellipses was distributed yesterday at the March meeting of the North Houston chapter of NSS.

GW has created updates to the course that I'll be adding today.

NewMars members are welcome to print the flyer from the link in the GW Johnson topic, and pass it along to friends or acquantances who might be interested, or to teachers who might have students who might be interested,

Other topics that may come up include the Optical Plane Deep Space Tug. It appears that collecting photons is feasible, using existing optical technology, so now our attention will shift to the design of an apparatus able to convert the energy in the photons to movement of hydrogen molecules through a nozzle to produce thrust.

Update:

GW Johnson has prepared a course on ellipses >> orbits that we are hosting in the NewMars forum. The North Houston chapter of NSS distributed the flyer at their meeting on Saturday 2025/03/08.

The flyer is available via dropbox at this post.
https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 66#p230166

(th)

tahanson43206 · 2025-03-09 18:00:35

Waiting room is open...

Post meeting report:

kbd512 and GW Johnson were in fine form once again.

The topics covered ranged far and wide in every sense.

We ended up on Lake Waco where GW sailed as a youngster, and learned how to water ski behind a catamaran.

Sailing behind a sailboat is quite different from skiing behind a power boat.

***
Leading off the hour, kbd512 brought us up to date on his thinking about the photon powered deep space vessel.

I attempted to capture some of the ideas that flew by, but missed some ...

40 megawatts of power – kbd512
1 kilonewton of thrust
1 kilogram of mass
Used a real thermal rocket engine as a model
****
Issues …
mass of the ship (mass of optical collection device)
Engine can be at front …
Ceramic for the engine (pipe to accept heat)
***
Issues:
steering
how maintain flat surface
What is core geometry for the engine itself
How pressurizing the propellant?

The photon collection area to deliver a mere 40 megawatts is minuscule compared to the large space tug concept I've been studying.

As a reminder for folks who might read this but did not read the earlier work, a photon collection surface a kilometer long by 200 meters wide would deliver 2000 megawatts to the heat engine, and kbd512 estimated that would produce 5 tons-force by spending 5 kilograms of hydrogen per second.

***
We spent some time talking about GW's course on ellipses.

We have accomplished quite a bit over the past couple of years, in an effort to make the course available to the public, and to publicize it.

We still have some work to do, and GW has agreed to at least start to think about the missing elements.

I am currently focusing upon the output of a document. We've advertised that a student taking the course would be able to create a document similar to the one that features asteroid 2024 YR4 as it is expected to swing by the Earth in 2028. I am concerned about creating the actual document, which requires a set of skills that are not included in the course at present.

GW has been working to address the up-front problem of mathematics readiness. The 0.5 Class attempts to help a student pick up an understanding of algebra if the student has not yet had that material in class.

In short, while the course is ready for the first adventuresome students it is very likely still subject to improvement.

(th)

tahanson43206 · 2025-03-14 09:59:01

In planning for Sunday's Google Meeting, I've prepared a list of questions about how the photons collected by the proposed Optical Plane system would be used to heat liquid hydrogen to produce thrust.

http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 20#p230320

(th)

tahanson43206 · 2025-03-15 16:36:05

In preparation for Sunday's Google Meeting, I have determined that the desired temperature for hydrogen gas to be emitted from kbd512's Optical Plane Deep Space tug is 3000 Kelvin, which is above the melting point of quartz.

Some very interesting physics/engineering is likely to be in discussion Sunday evening.

(th)

tahanson43206 · Yesterday 07:00:05

Considering kbd512's Optical Plane Deep Space Tug concept:

GW Johnson has proposed a solution to the challenge of an optical interface between the photon supply lines and the hot volume where hydrogen gas is heated.

Suggestions are available for materials that might work for the heating system.

tahanson43206 wrote:

In preparation for Sunday's Google Meeting, I have determined that the desired temperature for hydrogen gas to be emitted from kbd512's Optical Plane Deep Space tug is 3000 Kelvin, which is above the melting point of quartz.
Some very interesting physics/engineering is likely to be in discussion Sunday evening.

If current plans hold, the waiting room will open just before Midnight UTC, 7 PM Houston and 8 PM New Hampshire.

(th)

tahanson43206 · Yesterday 17:57:01

The waiting room is open...

Welcome to all who stop by!

kbd512's Optical Plane vessel is on the agenda

(th)

kbd512 · Yesterday 18:05:48

tahanson43206,

Unfortunately, I'm very sick right now, so I won't be joining.

tahanson43206 · Yesterday 18:13:43

For kbd512 ... thanks for checking in despite feeling bad!

You used the word "very" so I will offer the strongest best wishes for recovery as soon as possible!

(th)

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