Polar oriented tera formation methods.

Void · 2023-09-12 12:00:33

This is intended to point mostly to Mars, as a somewhat specific method, but could be applied to other worlds, including our Moon or Mercury perhaps. If needed as things progress, I will modify the subject and the initial message, but this is rather a very specific method contemplated.

I have been posting of related content for a long time in many places. More recently this topic holds some of it.

Here and there are supportive materials in this topic: "Index» Terraformation» Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff."

Done

Last edited by Void (2023-09-12 12:02:28)

Void · 2023-09-12 12:05:03

A primary motive for this is that at the current tilt of Axis of Mars, the water vapor in the atmosphere has a bias to condense in the polar regions. So, if we control the polar regions, we control much of the condensation process on Mars.

And that by itself is a very, very important fact, as far as I can determine.

By itself that is a lot.

Done.

Void · 2023-09-12 12:13:04

Three worlds seem reasonably poised for polar seas. Mars, Mercury, and our Moon Luna. But likely the Moon will require importation of much water.

Mercury and the Moon will likely need strong armor of Magnetics and Mechanics to protect those seas. Mars could benefit from such but would be less needy.

Mercury and the Moon have pretty good clockwork for how solar energy is distributed.

Mars has reasonably good clockwork for seasonal solar, and day/night solar but less so for the effects of weather. Dust storms however, I believe are generally somewhat tied to a 3 year cycle. This article indicates that it is somewhat true.
https://solarsystem.nasa.gov/news/469/1 … m-on-mars/

If we had a ~3 year cycle of sun dimming here on Earth the seas might be of some greater use to us.

In any case I am thinking that the North Ice cap of Mars could have a string of pearls of lakes around its perimeter.
The South cap may need to use craters available not too far away for lakes. For the Korolev Crater ice a string of pearls of lakes might do around the edge of the ice mass.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korolev_(Martian_crater)
Image quote:

In the case of any of these Nuclear of most sorts would be desired and welcome. But also the adjacent areas can have solar panels.

Even on the ice bifacial east/west solar panels might be suitable, particularly for Korolev, as they would tend to shade the ice, I think.

For makeup water for any of these you could tunnel into the ice, and also for the North and South caps you could microwave beams to create a ice aquifer such as can exist in Greenland. https://www.nasa.gov/content/goddard/en … cumulation

Of course early bases on Mars to start with may likely be at lower latitudes where resources can be found.

For Mercury, of course you could choose a crater of small size in the dark areas and fill it with ice covered water. You would need serious ice protection. For the Moon, that might be possible but I suspect we are going to want an interplanetary transfer method for organic chemicals to the Moon.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-09-12 15:24:49)

Void · 2023-09-12 15:43:55

I would like to fold this post #351 of that topic into this discussion: http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 05#p213505 Quote:

Well, this is new to me, I understand that others may be well aware of it.
https://undecidedmf.com/why-co2-heat-pu … f-cooling/
Quote:
Why CO2 Heat Pumps Are The Future Of Cooling
Matt Ferrell By MATT FERRELL and JON OKUN 33 seconds ago
Most worlds we might access could use something like this perhaps.
On Mars, it is possible that this could be helpful to heat ice covered bodies of waters lower layers.
Fresh water can have slightly warming water at the bottom than the top, in winter like conditions.
For water with salt gradients, you can heat the bottom very warm, even hot.
Solar ponds: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_pond
Quote:
90 °C is attainable.
So, I think that you could have enternal>Top Water heat pumps to work with the cooler top water.
Then you could have Top Water>Bottom water. Then you could have Bottom Water>To Heating Needs.
The cold top water could also be used for cooling industrial processes this would be an "External Source".
This could at its source be photovoltaic, and/or Nuclear Fission.
You could also of course as an external source solar thermal.
Of course, as has been indicated elsewhere and elsewhen, the waters of such lakes can support life, particularly with further assistance. The upper layers can collect some sunlight, and certainly you can put artificial lighting and chemicals into any of the waters.
The above could probably be installed wherever there is a sufficient source of water, but in particular, I like the polar ice caps for long term. I anticipate that the long summers will be the time of collection of heat, and the long winter nights will be a time to run heat engines efficiently, using CO2.
For the North Cap, you would simply melt all the ice and over time the water would spread over a very large surface.
For the Southern Cap, you would to some degree use natural basins to make a matrix of "Lakes", but in some cases use ice to create long term ice dams.
For worlds like the Moon, sintered rock domes could be of a hot and cold variety. The Moon probably has enough CO2 for this, and more Carbon could be hard landed to facilitate expansion of the methods.
Many other worlds have plenty of Carbon or can import it.
Done

The topic also has other interesting materials from other members as well.

Last edited by Void (2023-09-12 15:46:32)

Void · 2023-09-13 10:00:36

I like the similarities of polar habitation for Mars, Mercury, and perhaps the Moon.

In the case of Mars however there are certainly alternatives. Mid latitude ice sheets, and also a spot the size of the Netherlands that gives a strong Hydrogen signal.

I have been re-evaluating the notion of lakes. I have in the past explored trying to get sunlight into them, and I think it is possible, but a different approach may have its value.

If lights were to be considered heaters, that also give off useful visible light, then they may make sense to store heat in a lake and may also support plant growth.

If heat is stored in the bottom of the lake, and ice stored at the top of the lake, heat engines might run off of the thermal differentials.

An Antarctic Dry Valley Lake may have water near room temperatures at its bottom in some cases. https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/10. … 0of%20heat. Quote:

25°c
The warm water, mperatures with up to 25°c, found bottom of near the the ice covered Lake Vanda Antar in Victoria has prompted ica, a Land, number of papers suggesting possible heating mechanisms. The Dry Vanda during 1973-74 summer the enabled temp ratures in the lake sediment underlying granite bedrock to be measured, offering source of heat.
Lake Vanda (Antarctica) revisited - Taylor & Francis Online
www.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/10.1080/00288306.1977.10420695
www.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/10.1080/00288306.1977.10420695

But a lake may have deeper spots, where perhaps the temperature could be higher. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_pond So it may be possible to store heat at temperatures above 25 C.

But piles of rock with enclosures would be able to be heated much above that. Multiple methods would exist to do that.

This one for 180 deg C exists apparently: https://www.sintef.no/en/latest-news/20 … pump-ever/

Heat Pumps of even higher temperatures are expected to be developed, maybe even as much as 550 deg C? But they may not be to efficient at that point. Time will tell.

If you really want to heat a bunch of rock up you can use electric heating elements. Of course water may boil without pressurization so, maybe massively high temperatures are overkill.

The other part of exploiting the Martian thermal environment would be the ice slab on the top of the water.

As you build the lake, you may embed two different pipe systems. One is to be the cold side of your heat engine. The other one will connect to radiators exposed to the Martian environment. Those could be forced air or convection. I anticipate them to be filled with dry Nitrogen and/or Argon. So, this gives the opportunity to chill your ice from the cold outside. Such radiators could be damaged by CO2 frost in the winter, so that has to be accounted for, but the CO2 frost may also provide evaporative cooling. So, you actually have a water/ice phase change energy storage in your lake cover. During the summer you will make the ice layer thinner as the temperatures outside will be warmer than the winter will be.

Most saline layers in the lake will be very hostile to most types of life, so you need lass salty conditions for the life and that can be done in containers in the lake.

Of course, I have ideas about that. But the lake will give pressurization, radiation protection, and be an energy battery.

I need a break.

If anyone wants to suggest a type of heat engine, I would like that.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-09-13 10:33:21)

Void · 2023-09-13 20:22:30

It will be quite a challenge to have piping that can tolerate freeze/thaw on its outside. I have some notions, but I will proclaim that I am not at all sure I have a good solution so far.

While in the previous posts I seem to veer away from passing light though ice, this is true for the heat engine version of a lake.

It will be quite possible to do lakes that simulate to some degree an Antarctic Ocean environment, and also a winter freshwater lake can have active photosynthesis. Even plants, perhaps we would need to see if complex plants can persist in such a situation indefinitely.

So, I consider the poles superior for farming, as you have perhaps ~11.5 months of summer light. But of course, that's an exaggeration, actually there is likely to be transition between summer and winter lighting. But you should be able to understand what I do indicate.

I think that starvation might be a risk with dust storms, so the plan should always be to grow an excessive amount of food when possible and to store it in cold and dry and pretty much away from Oxygen.

Almost any location underground on Mars could be made suited to that form of food storage.

And in reality, i think that Mars most likely can be about aquifers and flooding crater enclosures to make farms and heat engine devices.

The Heat Engine Lake I described could really use very simple solar thermal methods from concentrating mirrors to store fairly high heat in the bottoms. This then can be utilized against the cold of night, winters, and Dust Storms, to Keep the Lights On. And no, I am not against Nuclear.

Done

Last edited by Void (2023-09-13 20:27:32)

Void · 2023-09-14 08:20:02

Mercury in some ways resembles a combination of features of Earth, Mars, and Our Moon.

The Shadowed Craters of Mercury: https://www.scientificamerican.com/arti … water-ice/
Quote:

SPACE & PHYSICS
New Maps of Mercury Show Icy Looking Craters on the Solar System's Innermost Planet
A NASA spacecraft bolsters the case that ice lines the inside of polar craters on Mercury
By John Matson on March 28, 2012

It may be that some things that function well on Earth, may also do on Mercury. However, with the case of Mercury, much more protection would be needed to shelter a body of water.

My thinking on Mars is that in realty chains of lakes a possible way to do things, but even reaching to lower latitudes. I was thinking that that could not be considered for Mercury, (Or out Moon), but I am not so sure anymore.

Query, "Bandshells": Images from search: https://www.bing.com/images/search?q=Ba … C3&first=1

Mars has a large axis tilt, but Mercury and the Moon have small tilts.

I think that at least on Mercury it could be possible to build large shells from Metals and sintered regolith.

Openings in the shells could be on the North and the South, so very little direct sunlight will enter the shade of the shell. That example would be for the Equator. at higher latitudes only the end pointing at the local pole would be open.

Stating with a metal shell, then to sinter a shell of regolith in layers on top of it, creating a Roman Arch type archetecture.

https://www.dezeen.com/2011/06/28/the-s … us-kayser/

https://hackaday.com/2011/06/25/selecti … with-sand/

So, actually this perhaps could be done on Earth as well.

Mercury should work very well for the sintering of regolith, but you would need a way to not burn though the metal that the regolith is to be sintered over.

The Moon should work well enough.

Mars may be tougher. It might be better to simply glue regolith over the shell, if you could obtain said "Glue" at a reasonable price of effort.

After the sinter is completed, you might leave the metal under-shell in place, and interduce piping methods to circulate CO2 though it as a heat exchanger.

Obviously if the shell is thick enough, you may have some radiation protection under the shell.

The shell will likely crack under thermal changes, so when constructing it, it might be best to try to introduce the locations of cracks, sort of like you would have joints between stones in a Roman Arch.

Arches: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arch
Image Quote:

The size of Lava Tubes that are stable on a world might indicate how large your arche/tubes might be made.

https://www.cnn.com/2020/08/19/world/mo … index.html
Quote:

Lava tubes beneath the surface of Mars and the moon could be, respectively, 100 and 1,000 times wider than lava tubes on Earth, which could provide shelter and create exploration opportunities for astronauts in the future, according to a new study.

I will suppose that for Mercury could be similar.

So, for the two ends, (Presuming you did not make a Torus shape), many different things could be done.

You could use it as a radiator. to some degree in the north and/or south exposure openings you may close one or both up. You might include curtains. You might install windows.

You might shine light from heliostats into those windows, if you had windows and make a "Hot Box".

As for pressurizing, inner metal shell has both some compressive and tensile strength. The sintered stone shell is mostly good for compressive strength. But you could have anchors at the bases of the walls, and run tensile straps or cables over the outer surface of the sintered stone arch, to provide some tensile strength.

If the interior volume has an inner shell appropriate, then you might pressurize the interior.

I have not particularly thought out how we get the metal shell that we would start with.

Relativity Space seems to have 3D printers to make a fair amount of their rockets with, that might be a direction to look in.

As far as sintering the stone shells, I think that robots could be designed to do that when the solar conditions favor it. So, that might be cost effective.

As for the rest of options, I guess I will allow those for future consideration.

One thing that Isaac Arthur has suggested for the Moon is small windows with portals that can shut automatically if the pressure barrier is breached. You might shine light though those.

But if you want to be dealing on Mars, an arche structure with an ice-covered pond would be a minimal growth chamber. I have covered similar notions elsewhere previously so; I will try not to tire people out with excessive embellishments.

If you had window on one end or both ends, you could shine light into the enclosure.

Quite a bit of the UV can be filtered out with the atmosphere of Mars, the windows at the end(s) of the arche, and the Ice above the water. Also, the mirrors might be made to not reflect UV, but if if they get dusty then them might reflect UV.

I admit, it might be possible to have an open water situation instead of ice covered. But then you have to replace what the ice can do to block UV, with some other method.

100 millibar is said to be about the lower pressure that many plants can tolerate.

If you could get up to 333 millibar in the enclosure, then pure Oxygen would be suitable for humans. The water in the lake could add more pressure so that your aquatic dwellings might host a Nitrogen/Oxygen mix at that higher pressure.

I think that Robert has suggested an Oxygen/Nitrogen mix that may allow transfer of humans across pressures, without the bends occurring. But that is a recollection I have.

Other things to do.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-09-14 10:14:29)

Void · 2023-09-14 19:48:25

I am hopeful that sintered arches can provide a method to build structure on the surface of Mars at the poles. But unlike Mercury and the Moon deep ice and icy permafrost may be a problem for the foundations of those. Still, it is worth having a look. I think that Korolev Crater might be a good place to experiment for the method.

It leads to another idea though, could arches be made of ice and materials that can be supportive.

So, maybe more thinking could be of value for it on Mars.

However, I think it will work quite well in most locations on Mercury and the Moon. (Sintered Stone Arche).

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-09-14 19:50:27)

Void · 2023-09-17 13:48:06

I am just now looking into Magnetite on the Moon.

Strange Magnetic Anomalies on The Moon Can Finally Be Explained
SPACE
07 December 2022
ByDAVID NIELD
https://www.sciencealert.com/strange-ma … -explained

SCIENCE & TECHNOLOGY
Magnetism on the moon
https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/ … -the-moon/
Quote:

Their first clue came from the surveys that had long confounded scientists. When combined with more recent, hyper-accurate topographical surveys of the moon’s surface, it quickly became clear that most of the magnetic anomalies are scattered around the rim of an enormous, 2,400 kilometer-diameter crater known as South Pole-Aitken.

I guess one point is that not all places on the Moon are the same, and perhaps some asteroid materials can be found.

The other idea is that not only shadowed craters can freeze trap volatiles, but it seems to be suspected that a magnetic field can also help to protect them from the solar wind.

Mercury has a leaky magnetic field, and apparently the Moon may have some magnetic protection in some locations, that might impede the removal of materials by the solar wind.

Done

Last edited by Void (2023-09-17 14:09:28)

Void · 2023-09-17 19:54:03

Some members might be interested in Tesla Bot. I of course am very interested in various robots for the Moon.

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=Te … &FORM=VIRE Quote:

Tesla Bots:10 X Better Than Humans [Business Model] | Scott Walter
YouTube9.1K views12 hours ago

So, of course it will take time to ramp up, but I have tried to suggest methods of shelter/factory floor on the Moon for Robots and perhaps the inclusion of a smaller amount of humans.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-09-17 19:56:23)

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#1 2023-09-12 12:00:33

Polar oriented tera formation methods.

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Re: Polar oriented tera formation methods.

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Re: Polar oriented tera formation methods.

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Re: Polar oriented tera formation methods.

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