Wealth and Energy tightly bound

tahanson43206 · 2023-01-26 11:18:15

For SpaceNut .... we did not have a topic containing the word "wealth" in the title

I have been appreciating Calliban's posts about the importance of energy, while at the same time quietly holding Adam Smith's definition of wealth in mind.

Calliban may be from the same part of the world as Adam Smith. I'm not clear on that point.

Each of these gents seems to have part of the picture (and I do ** not ** claim to be any more visionary).

Adam Smith was most emphatically NOT an engineer or a scientist... he lived at a time of intellectual fervor, as the Enlightenment was in full flower, and Newton's ideas and those of many other pioneers in engineering and science were bouncing around as fast as the printing press could deliver them, and horses could carry them.

On the other hand, it would appear that Calliban is an engineer and historian with significant credentials. What I suspect is that Calliban is NOT an economist, although he sometimes offers commentary about how free market economies work (or don't).

From my perspective, I see that the two gents' views can be extended to overlap.

In the quote below, I think I have found an example of what I mean ...

https://www.yahoo.com/finance/news/tiny … 26838.html

You probably haven’t heard of Coke County, Texas. Out of thousands of counties in America, it’s one of the smallest, with just 3,300 residents.
But it enjoyed the biggest economic boom of any county from 2019 to 2021, according to an analysis from the Bureau of Economic Analysis. In those two years, Coke County’s gross domestic product (GDP) rose by 83%, from $128 million to $235 million.
The growth is being credited to a surge in wind farm construction. New wind farms are paying landowners in Coke County annual royalties of up to $10,000 while creating jobs and lowering energy costs. These twin economic benefits have helped the county’s GDP per capita rise from $39,000 a year to $71,000. The explosion in wealth has led one county judge to describe the locals as “tickled pink about this.”
But it’s not just Coke County. Of the 10 American counties with the biggest spikes in GDP from 2019 to 2021, seven have seen major wind farm construction in that time frame.

What I think this example shows is that an abundance of energy leads to increased wealth In the presence of the "productivity of the people".

In other words, what I think Adam Smith was missing was that the increasing flow of energy in his time was as important to the wealth of England as was the productivity of the population in harnessing newly discovered thinking patterns that allowed greatly improved personal performance.

For all who might contribute to this topic ...

Please try to think about a high school or college student who might read this topic as an exercise assigned by an instructor.

In many topics of this forum, posts are written (or appear to have been written) for amusement on a one-time chuckle basis.

I'd like this topic to be worth someone's time in the future.

(th)

tahanson43206 · 2023-01-26 12:28:31

For the second post in this new topic, I've quoted a member of Dr. Dartnell's Knowledge Forum ...

Sent: Mon Jan 23, 2023 9:28 pm
by Dave Z
Hi TH,
Tenakee Springs (our home town/port) has hot springs in town center. In the past years, one of the town residents has taken the lead in plumbing the springs to heat floors of buildings in reach and now, a community greenhouse. We have tomatoes in SE Alaskan January! Plenty of others are using water in cannisters for thermal mass, absorbing solar heat and radiating slowly in greenhouses, all to good effect.
Anke and I are lazy, though... we prefer to collect wild greens and shun the hard work of gardening!
I'm guessing this has been looked into, but there may be some new info to the discussion:
Geothermal Gradient has a Mars equivalent. The deeper the hole, the more heat energy may be tapped. On Earth, the grid scale energy has been out-of-reach of current deep drilling technology.
Recently, it has been proposed that gyrotrons (high energy field generators perfected for use in nuclear fusion containment) be used instead of conventional drills. Advantages include:
Vaporization of substrate for pumping clear.
Indefinite depth holes.
Zero torque issues.
Vitrification of hole sides means no cladding necessary.
MIT has a start-up company up and running (Quaise), and the first deep hole geothermal station is expected to be up and running sometime in 2024.
https://www.google.com/search?q=mit+gyr ... e&ie=UTF-8
Water and lesser crust/mantle heat would be the challenges on Mars, but if you're shipping 10MT ponds around, this might pay its way? Essentially a bottomless well of energy.

(th)

Calliban · 2023-01-26 16:22:52

TH, I would recommend reading this article, which deals with the very topic you have raised.
https://surplusenergyeconomics.wordpres … my-part-1/

In essence, economics has its roots in philosophy, not physics. It is based upon observations on the large scale behaviour of money. Economics therefore implicitly models the economy as a financial system. GDP is an estimate of the monetary value of exchanges that take place within an economy. In reality, what takes place in the economy is the manufacture of goods and services (using labour leveraged by energy) and their exchange. Money is only ever involved as a medium of exchange and is an entirely human artifact that has no physical presence in the real world. It does nothing to power the machines that dig ores, smelt them and then craft the finished materials into products. Those processes are driven by energy.

Since the 1970s, advanced economies have endured a slow contraction of economuc growth known as secular stagnation. This is inexplicable to conventional economics. Interest rates have declined steadily since the early 1980s and even went negative in some advanced economies. This has allowed GDP to continue to inflate only by allowing debt levels to expand more rapidly than growth. The reality ignored by economists is that the declining global net energy return of fossil fuels is resulting in growing headwinds to continued growth in real prosperity, as opposed to GDP. The GDP and notional asset values can be inflated endlessly by running money printers faster and spending that extra money into the economy. But real goods require real physical inputs which are processed into goods and services using energy. The continued expansion of the financial economy of money is increasingly decoupling from the real economy of goods. The first can be inflated through monetary policy. The second is dependant upon real physical inputs which cannot be expanded by tinkering with currency supply. One of the latest consequences of monetary inflation is rising prices of real goods and services, which has eroded personal prosperity. This is evidence of the growing discoupling between the real and imaginary (financial) economies.

Last edited by Calliban (2023-01-26 16:34:26)

tahanson43206 · 2023-01-26 18:34:01

For Calliban re #3

Thanks for the link you provided in Post #3

I took a quick look, and found that this is a lengthy and thoughtful blog post, followed by serious replies and observations.

The folks at the Cato Institute appear to have a more optimistic expectation for the future, but as I have reported elsewhere in the forum, they seem to disregard energy altogether. Instead, they appear to have faith in the inventiveness of human beings.

I tend toward optimism, so expect that all the folks working on finding energy sources to sustain the population while reducing CO2 production will eventually succeed. However, clearly (or at least to me) there is no way to know with certainty where those break throughs will occur.

What ** is ** clear is that folks with money to spend are making gigantic bets on many of the attempts that are underway.

In any case, thanks ** very ** much for adding this link (and the gent behind it) to this topic!

I'm planning to return to the link when I have more time.

I ** just ** came out of a monthly online meeting with a sense of being overwhelmed by advances in my field.

The fact is that the digital realm costs almost nothing to generate enormous wealth.

I suspect (only a gut feeling at this point) that our friends with all the worries about the economy are totally unaware of the multiplier effect of digital technology on the productivity (and happiness) of individual human beings.

The fact is that individual human beings require very small amounts of resources to stay alive and in comfort.

As one of the commentators to the article you linked pointed out, having Internet access can provide a world of opportunity to someone living in a tiny living space.

Books have a similar function ... the life of the mind can allow an individual to travel across time and space effortlessly.

(th)

kbd512 · 2023-01-27 04:37:55

tahanson43206,

In 15 to 20 years time, because tomorrow eventually "gets here", will the same energy companies now paying royalties to the residents of Coke County, also be there to remove and replace their old and worn out wind turbines, or will the company move on to clear-cut the next piece of land, assuming the company still exists?

How many old and worn out wind turbines have been dismantled and recycled in the US, relative to the number left rusting where they were built?

For the electricity rate payers who purchase their electricity from the power companies operating wind turbines in Coke County, have their incomes likewise increased, or are they all made collectively poorer so that a handful of people can get a little richer, at least until the power company figures out that it's easier to move on to spoiling new land than cleaning up after themselves?

Don't get me wrong, it's great right now for the residents of Cook County, but let's look at some counties that have had their wind turbines for the past 15 to 20 years to see where they are, economically-speaking.

What long-term jobs were created?

Based on interviews with the operators of wind energy projects in Michigan, each windfarm tends to have between 7 and 11 employees per 100 MW4,5. So a 200MW windfarm would likely bring 14-22 long-term full-time equivalent (FTE) jobs to the community.

The Wind Technician salary range is from $42,006 to $58,688, and the average Wind Technician salary is $49,656/year in the United States.

How often are wind turbines required to be serviced after they've been built?

For turbines that operate year round, typical maintenance may occur one to three times a year and turbines are monitored electronically 24 hours a day from a central office. If a problem is detected, wind technicians must travel to the worksite and perform as-needed troubleshooting, repair and service.

We now have "wind technicians" to fix "broken wind".

tahanson43206 · 2023-01-27 18:37:53

For Kbd522 re #5

Thank you for the timely reminder that technology that harvests a flow of energy must be maintained.

Unlike fossil fuels, wind is likely to remain a viable resource far into the future.

Your post #5 includes observations/predictions/questions that deserve study.

this is just to acknowledge #5.

It is possible that a study of the coal industry, or the oil industry, or the gas industry, would reveal similar concerns about the inevitable impact of entropy on all human created technology.

The purpose of this topic is to (at least attempt to) find a correlation between the availability of accessible energy and wealth.

I am highlighting the (apparent) difference of opinion between those who consider energy to be the primary factor in wealth, and those who ignore energy and consider human invention (and productivity of artifacts and systems) to be the primary factor in wealth.

My thesis is that it is a combination of available energy, human ingenuity and hard work to harness available energy, that is the key to wealth.

However, our friends at the Cato Institute cite the Rule of Law and Individual Freedom as a primary factors in the accumulation and maintenance of wealth.

As we (readers) attempt to decode all those signals from "very bright people", the answer probably includes elements of all of those and more besides.

(th)

SpaceNut · 2023-01-27 20:20:41

That wage does not take into account the high risk that is undertaken when you need to get to the center of the blades where the generator is to repair it. It sure is not compensating for the travel between them as most of them are spread quite far apart from each other and most as at high altitudes being on mountain ridges or the top of them.

tahanson43206 · 2023-01-27 20:44:39

For SpaceNut .... high paying jobs go with dangerous occupations.

Both men and woman appear to be happy to take on the challenges of maintaining wind generation equipment.

As you have noted, this may be a younger person's occupation. There are plenty of dangerous occupations where folks earn respectable livings. If a person cannot deal with the risks, then they should definitely find another line of work.

(th)

SpaceNut · 2023-01-27 20:53:38

This would be a comparable pay level since risks are very similar.

https://www.bls.gov/ooh/installation-ma … airers.htm

Pay The median annual wage for electrical power-line installers and repairers was $78,310 in May 2021. The median annual wage for telecommunications line installers and repairers was $60,190 in May 2021

Electric line workers listed among top 10 most dangerous jobs utilitydive.com

Electrical Power-Line Installers and Repairers - Bureau of Lab… bls.gov

What is the Death Rate for Power Linemen? baileyjavinscarter.com

What Is Electrical Lineman Salary by State? - ZipRecruiter ziprecruiter.com

What is a Lineman? How Much Does a Lineman Make? - Diver… divergentalliance.com

Here is another unexpected risk Giant Wind Turbines Keep Mysteriously Falling Over. This Shouldn't Be Happening.

tahanson43206 · 2023-01-28 11:10:54

The article at the link below is available in pdf format.

The paper explores the idea that electrity consumption is a better indicator of national wealth than is raw barrels of oil equivalent.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/a … 1500000811

Electricity use and economic development
Author links open overlay panelRossFergusonaWilliamWilkinsonbRobertHillc
https://doi.org/10.1016/S0301-4215(00)00081-1Get rights and content
Abstract
A study of the relationship between electricity use and economic development in over one hundred countries, constituting over 99% of the global economy has been undertaken. Correlations between electricity consumption/capita and GDP/capita have been analysed and compared with those between total primary energy supply/capita and GDP/capita. A supporting analysis has correlated the proportion of energy used in the form electricity, the `e/E ratio', with GDP/capita. The general conclusions of this research are that wealthy countries have a stronger correlation between electricity use and wealth creation than do poor countries and that, for the global economy as a whole, there is a stronger correlation between electricity use and wealth creation than there is between total energy use and wealth. The study also shows that, in wealthy countries, the increase in wealth over time correlates with an increase in the e/E ratio. The results imply that the energy ratio ($/toe) should be replaced by the electricity ratio ($/kWh) as a development indicator and, more precisely, by the e/E ratio (kWh/toe).

View full text
Copyright © 2000 Elsevier Science Ltd. All rights reserved.

(th)

kbd512 · 2023-01-28 12:40:41

tahanson43206,

Both men and woman appear to be happy to take on the challenges of maintaining wind generation equipment.

2.7% of all wind turbine technicians are women, while 97.3% are men.

There are over 3,985 bricklayers currently employed in the United States. 2.9% of all bricklayers are women, while 97.1% are men. The average age of an employed bricklayer is 41 years old.

That means there are 116 women who are employed as brick layers, out of 3,985 brick layers in total, and in total America's population is fast approaching 400 million. Your chances of being struck by lightning are probably about the same as running across a woman who lays bricks.

Brick Mason Statistics By Gender. 4.8% of brick masons are women and 95.2% of brick masons are men.

I'll wager that the women who work on wind turbines or lay bricks don't have a lot of other options going for them, or they really like being outdoors and working with their hands. Either way, the exceptions don't disprove the rule.

Terraformer · 2023-01-28 12:45:52

for the global economy as a whole, there is a stronger correlation between electricity use and wealth creation than there is between total energy use and wealth.

This makes a lot of sense. Electricity is high grade energy, and using it a lot correlates well with having a functioning grid (a country that can maintain a grid) and not being reliant on lower tech methods of heating, cooking etc. And of course, the sort of appliances wealthier countries have run on electricity.

tahanson43206 · 2023-01-29 07:26:19

This is for Terraformer ....

I am hoping for your endorsement of a set of challenges to you and your Countrymen ...

Your initiative in the Chat Index to study/plan/test strategies for best dealing with failure of a culture is sensible and realistic.

There are many folks alive today who share a pessimistic outlook on human potential, and who are focused upon trying to lay up stocks of survival goods, and survival procedures. Dr. Lewis Dartnell is a leading light in this large part of the population. We met in his Knowledge forum, and that forum has recently seen a (small) uptick in activity, as a member who lives in Alaska returned to offer additional insights about living off the grid.

What I would like to do (with your endorsement if possible) is to open two new topics to challenge your countrymen to show the way for Mars settlers.

Mars settlers are never going to have a wind industry, so I'm not including wind in my challenge. However, the winds in the vicinity of the British Isles are reported to be abundant, and significant work has been done already to enlist their favor to provide energy for residents.

However, Mars is most certainly going to have a major Nuclear Power industry, and it ** may ** have a geothermal industry as well. That latter option seems likely but it has not been proven possible by actual onsite measurements, so I'm less sure of it's potential.

Regardless, the British Isles, and in fact, many of not most of the regions considering themselves part of the UK have access to abundant geothermal power.

The topics I am thinking about would be something like:

(In Martian Economy topic)...

Challenge to England to Harness Nuclear Power

and

Challenge to England to Harness Geothermal Power

The theme in both cases would be to achieve an average power-per-capita of 1 megawatt.

One megawatt of power would be produced per resident of a region.

If the theory of Calliban is correct, that abundance in a society is directly correlated with the abundance of power flowing in that society, then the standard of living of all residents, including those with the least of assets, would be considered good by outside observers, because those with great assets would feel generosity sufficient to provide a decent life for those without.

I believe that it is the fear of want on the part of the wealthy that impels them to horde what they have and to deny it to those without.

In a society characterized by abundance, I am hoping that the wealthy will feel willing to allow some of that abundance to trickle down to the least advantaged members of the society.

(th)

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#1 2023-01-26 11:18:15

Wealth and Energy tightly bound

#2 2023-01-26 12:28:31

Re: Wealth and Energy tightly bound

#3 2023-01-26 16:22:52

Re: Wealth and Energy tightly bound

#4 2023-01-26 18:34:01

Re: Wealth and Energy tightly bound

#5 2023-01-27 04:37:55

Re: Wealth and Energy tightly bound

#6 2023-01-27 18:37:53

Re: Wealth and Energy tightly bound

#7 2023-01-27 20:20:41

Re: Wealth and Energy tightly bound

#8 2023-01-27 20:44:39

Re: Wealth and Energy tightly bound

#9 2023-01-27 20:53:38

Re: Wealth and Energy tightly bound

#10 2023-01-28 11:10:54

Re: Wealth and Energy tightly bound

#11 2023-01-28 12:40:41

Re: Wealth and Energy tightly bound

#12 2023-01-28 12:45:52

Re: Wealth and Energy tightly bound

#13 2023-01-29 07:26:19

Re: Wealth and Energy tightly bound

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