New Mars Forums

tahanson43206

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Registered: 2018-04-27

Posts: 19,382

Synthetic Fuel Produced using Nuclear Power

The challenge of producing synthetic fuel with nuclear power is greater than that for solar power, primarily because of the risks associated with nuclear power, and thus the need for expenditures of time and effort to secure nuclear facilities from various threats.

Never-the-less, forum member Calliban has described a compact facility that could (theoretically) produce all the synthetic fuel consumed by Earth dwellers today.   An actual facility need not be that large, but it ** does ** need to be large enough to earn a modest profit after covering all the risk reduction expenses in addition to the ordinary expenses for fuel, supplies and construction materials, not to mention staffing.

This topic is offered for those might wish to document the process of developing such a facility.

I suspect that massive solar power facilities will be operating long before a nuclear powered one, but this topic is available just in case.

(th)

SpaceNut

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From: New Hampshire

Registered: 2004-07-22

Posts: 29,431

Re: Synthetic Fuel Produced using Nuclear Power

repost

If you are looking for hydrogen to be a savior a gallon of gas is equal to 1 kg of hydrogen and to get that you need to break down 2.64 gallons of water to obtain the equivalent in hydrogen as there is only 110 grams of it in a liter of water.
For earth that is not a problem as we use free air in the engines of choice but for mars we need to capture the oxygen for reuse.

It is also said that the electrolysis input to get the hydrogen is just 70% efficient.

tahanson43206

Moderator

Registered: 2018-04-27

Posts: 19,382

Re: Synthetic Fuel Produced using Nuclear Power

For SpaceNut re #2

Thanks for giving this new topic a boost!

Efficiency seems of little consequence, if we are talking about nuclear fission power.

The heat engine driven by the hot reactor to produce energy is inefficient.

Electrolysis is inefficient.

So what?

Nuclear fission is inefficient, so make the reactor large enough to meet your customer demand.

If sea water is taken in to provide H2O for electrolysis, some energy will be consumed separating the H2O from the other elements and compounds suspended in the flow.

So what?

Just make the reactor big enough to meet your sales objectives.

Let's get going.

This topic is about synthetic fuel ... Hydrogen qualifies, although long chain hydrocarbons have advantages that have been articulated at great length by kbd512, Calliban and others.

(th)

tahanson43206

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Registered: 2018-04-27

Posts: 19,382

Re: Synthetic Fuel Produced using Nuclear Power

In another topic, Calliban recently posted a link to a paper about the status of efforts to create synthetic fuel in 2021.

The post below is an attempt to move the discussion of that technology into a topic better suited ...

Original post by Calliban: http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 15#p208515

Following up ...

For Calliban re #96

Thank you for the link to this report!

I've scanned it enough to realize this is a document worth careful study.

It contains historical data that I had not seen before, such as the US Army supply of 10 MW from a ship in the Panama Canal Zone while onshore facilities were being renovated/improved.

(th)

I scanned through the paper just now ... it is most definitely worth a slow read.

Thanks again for finding and posting the link!

Nice illustrations of Off Shore operations of various kinds ...

SearchTerm:synthetic fuel paper on status of

(th)

tahanson43206

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Registered: 2018-04-27

Posts: 19,382

Re: Synthetic Fuel Produced using Nuclear Power

This is a copy of a report from the ChatGPT topic...

The transcript below includes mention of BARD, and then explores options for SMR reactors.

The transcript was blocked by Apache Internal Error

Additionally, you may want to explore professional associations such as the American Nuclear Society, which represents professionals in the nuclear field and may provide useful information and resources related to nuclear energy and related technologies.

ChatGPT, your last suggestion is one that really hits a home run for me! Thank you for staying with me through this discovery process! Best wishes for continued success in helping your thousands of visitors! Catch you next time!

You're welcome, and I'm glad I could be of help! Don't hesitate to reach out if you have any further questions in the future. Take care!

(th)

The focus of this inquiry is how to cost out a synthetic fuel plant based upon the already approved 50 MW NuScale design for an SMR.

I would like to know how much synthetic fuel can be produced by a 50 MW plant, using air and water as input. 

With that information, it should be possible to discover the total investment that would be required to set up such a plant.

Since such a plant can be built and operated anywhere, it would be possible to site such a plant in a region that is suffering economic deterioration due to phase-out of fossil fuels.  It should be possible to employ local residents in a variety of occupations in support of the plant, operating the plant, or distributing the output of the plant.

The cost of building the first plant will be greater than the cost of building successor plants, as the folks involved gain experience.

In order for a build-out of such plants to be self-sustaining, they must NOT require input of fossil fuels, although building the first such plant will consume vast amounts of fossil fuel.  An objective of the management team supervising this roll out should be to eliminate input from fossil fuels as soon as possible.

(th)

tahanson43206

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Registered: 2018-04-27

Posts: 19,382

Re: Synthetic Fuel Produced using Nuclear Power

The article at the link below is about an unexpected downside to the introduction of hydrogen as an energy carrier...

https://autos.yahoo.com/hydrogen-resear … _test=0_00

It appears that if hydrogen is lost during manufacture or handling, it can interfere with destruction of methane molecules in the atmosphere.

I decided to put the link in this topic, because pulling carbon from the air is one of the possible benefits of synthetic fuel production. 

SpaceNut .... there are numerous topics with Hydrogen in the title.  There might be one or two where this link would fit.

(th)

tahanson43206

Moderator

Registered: 2018-04-27

Posts: 19,382

Re: Synthetic Fuel Produced using Nuclear Power

This topic is available for contributions that document the exact process needed to make synthetic fuel using nuclear power as input.

We have had discussions along these lines in the past, and there are even hints of what kind of nuclear power devices might be most effective.

This topic is available for contributions that go beyond wild hand waving to actual products available for purchase today, that can be assembled to make fuel.

What I'm looking for is a detailed specification an investor can follow to create a productive plant.

(th)

SpaceNut

Administrator

From: New Hampshire

Registered: 2004-07-22

Posts: 29,431

Re: Synthetic Fuel Produced using Nuclear Power

repost

The simplest solution and the one recommended by Zubrin, is to make methanol from various feedstocks.  If CO2 can be captured cheaply from ocean water (we have discussed that in the past), then:

CO2 + 3H2 = CH3OH + H2O

Methanol is a room temperature, atmospheric pressure storable liquid fuel, which can be stored in steel tanks without corroding them.  There are no issues with piping it long distances or storing large quantities of it.  A while back we discussed a solar thermal fuel manufacturing idea that would do all of this.  Methanol can be blended with gasoline, so this solution can be phased in gradually.  The only limiting problem is that methanol is corrosive to aluminium.  So the engines in new vehicles need to minimise the use of aluminium.  That isn't really a problem.  Where we need a diesel substitute:

2CH3OH = CH3-O-CH3 + H2O

This is dimethyl ether.  It is not corrosive to aluminium.  In liquid form it has about 3/4 the energy density of diesel and is suitable for compression ignition engines.  It has a vapour pressure of about 6 bars.  This could be used as jet fuel.

I can see this sort of initiative working in North America, where there is capital to support it and large areas suitable for solar thermal energy capture in the southern states.  It is less of an option in Europe, unless we really get our arses into gear and build out nuclear power.

One issue for the US is that the areas with the best solar resources tend to be away from the coast.  One way to solve that problem is to build ponds that can absorb CO2 from the air.  Another way is to use compressed air energy storage.  If air is compressed to high pressure at temperatures <31°C, the CO2 in the air turns into a liquid.  So we could colocate our fuel factories with CAES plants.

Air is 400ppm CO2, or 0.04% by volume and 0.06% by mass.  This means that each cubic metre of air we compress will give us 0.74g of CO2, which will make 0.54g of methanol.  This much methanol amounts to 10.76KJ of energy.  Compressing 1m3 of air to 10MPa, requires some 462KJ of energy.  So for every MWh of energy we store in compressed air, we get enough CO2 for 23.3kWh of methanol.  This isn't enough for a complete solution, but it is a start.

SpaceNut

Administrator

From: New Hampshire

Registered: 2004-07-22

Posts: 29,431

Re: Synthetic Fuel Produced using Nuclear Power

Water management for Power-to-X offshore platforms: an underestimated item

The present study evaluates relevant aspects and possible challenges with respect to water management as well as mass and energy balances in conceptual offshore methane and methanol production platforms. The results show that 1600 m3 of seawater must be desalinated to supply the electrolyzer and reach a daily 50-Megagram (Mg) hydrogen production. Around 1100 m3 of brine coming out of the desalination plant may be discharged to the sea as long as prior environmental impact assessments are conducted. Additionally, 273 Mg and 364 Mg CO2 need to be generated daily by direct air capture to produce 99 Mg day−1 methane and 265 Mg day−1 methanol, respectively. The daily produced methane and methanol wastewater is estimated to be 223 and 149 m3, respectively. Based on the scant literature on methanol wastewater, this is expected to contain toxic substances. Zero liquid discharge (ZLD) is proposed as wastewater method.

https://www.methanol.org/wp-content/upl … -Fuel-.pdf

https://pubs.acs.org/doi/10.1021/acssuschemeng.2c05968#

https://www.atlanticmethanol.com/public … rocess.pdf

New method converts methane in natural gas to methanol at room temperature