Heat Engines Generic topic

tahanson43206 · 2022-05-12 10:24:05

Heat engines are at the heart of most of current (ie, 2022) civilization.

We have at least one NewMars member who has published information/links/opinions and explanations about heat engines.

I'd like to see more members with expertise in this important field.

To launch the topic, however, I'm offering a heat engine example provided by Ma Nature for our enlightenment and study: hurricanes

The ** specific ** focus of my interest is a study performed by professional researchers who were investigating water participation in the mechanics of hurricanes.

The ** pinpoint ** focus of my interest is a conclusion that hurricanes power themselves (in part) by precipitating water.

According to the study authors, the thermal energy released by water when it condenses and falls out as rain contributes to the heat budget of the hurricane.

This means (as I interpret the results) that if humans could think of a mechanism, it ** should ** be possible to "earn" energy by causing precipitation.

Precipitation of fresh, desalinated potable sea water is preferable ** before ** a hurricane reaches land.

The study cited above (and linked in the Artificial Cloud topic) ** seems ** to suggest that a clever human could create a heat engine that precipitates water while at the same time (potentially) yielding a small surplus of energy that might be harvested.

Certainly hurricanes "know" how to harvest water to secure energy (if the study conclusions are valid).

Corollary: A hurricane is an out-of-control heat engine.

(th)

SpaceNut · 2022-05-12 20:09:28

One that gets its power from the continued rise in temperatures.

It is said that we will start to see category 6 wind speeds as a result of that increase in temperatures.

kbd512 · 2022-05-13 15:06:14

SpaceNut,

There are no "Category 6" hurricanes. Whatever a "Category 6 hurricane" is supposed to be, it does not relate to the actual hurricane wind speed scale used by NOAA.

NOAA - NATIONAL HURRICANE CENTER and CENTRAL PACIFIC HURRICANE CENTER - Saffir-Simpson Hurricane Wind Scale

That hurricane wind speed scale was introduced in 1971 by Herbert Saffir (a civil engineer) and Robert Simpson (a meteorologist and, at that time, director of the National Hurricane Center).

A number of meteorologists have repeatedly cautioned against using severe weather events such as hurricanes, which are by definition aberrations not representative of a norm, as a proxy for climate change's effect on severe weather events. There doesn't appear to be a clear trend linking severe weather events to climate change. Those same meteorologists have not ruled out such a possibility, and have merely stated that their data cannot demonstrate a causative link between climate change and severe weather events, using data compiled on major storms.

tahanson43206 · 2022-05-13 17:11:21

For kbd512 re #3

Thanks for the reminder that category "6" is just speculation, at this point.

Apparently the scale could be extended, if there is a need.

In the mean time, despite "popular" calls for extension, Category 5 is top of the scale.

For SpaceNut ... thanks for triggering this opportunity to learn (or re-learn) about hurricane categories.

(th)

GW Johnson · 2022-05-14 15:02:10

My own opinion is that we will need a "category 6" classification sooner or later. These things are demonstrably getting stronger more frequently.

It'll be a while yet, but we will probably eventually need an EF-6 classification for tornadoes, as well.

We may need to revise the drought classifications as well. I dunno, but it seems likely. Currently there's 5 levels, the top two being extreme (category 4) and exceptional (category 5). Where I live, we are on the borderline between them, and projected to be in category 5 exceptional in the next few weeks, if not the next few days.

There was a tiny bit of rain the last several weeks, so the grass and flowers are deceptively green just right now, but the soil moisture numbers have never improved. Not one whit. I expect rather more-rapid-than-normal flower seeding, followed by extensive browning of the pasture grass. The cattle will need outside hay and feed sooner than I have ever seen before. And we have lived here for 35 years now.

Anthropogenic global warming is quite real. Seen it. It's here. Some closer to the coasts haven't seen it yet, but it's here in central Texas right now. Ask the folks who depend on Lake Mead or Lake Powell how "real" this is. They'll tell you. It's been well over 1000 years since conditions were this bad, according to the geologists and the tree-ring people.

Doesn't matter what you want to believe, the data are quite real.

GW

Last edited by GW Johnson (2022-05-14 15:02:45)

SpaceNut · 2022-05-14 16:29:52

The category 4 and 5 were recently added since they were none seen before 1–5 scale was created in 1969 by the National Hurricane Center

Category 6 is a hypothetical rating beyond Category 5 with winds speeds of at least 181 mph to 214 mph and an average pressure of roughly 905 mbar to 880 mbar.

kbd512 · 2022-05-14 18:37:10

SpaceNut,

SpaceNut wrote:

The category 4 and 5 were recently added since they were none seen before 1–5 scale was created in 1969 by the National Hurricane Center
Category 6 is a hypothetical rating beyond Category 5 with winds speeds of at least 181 mph to 214 mph and an average pressure of roughly 905 mbar to 880 mbar.

No Category 5 hurricanes seen before 1969, huh?

1935 Labor Day Hurricane

The Great Labor Day Hurricane of 1935 (formally known as Hurricane Three) was the most intense Atlantic hurricane to make landfall on record in terms of pressure,[1] and tied with Hurricane Dorian in 2019 for the strongest landfalling Atlantic hurricane by maximum sustained winds, with winds of 185 mph (295 km/h). It was also the most intense Atlantic hurricane on record until Hurricane Gilbert in 1988. The fourth tropical cyclone, third tropical storm, second hurricane, and second major hurricane of the 1935 Atlantic hurricane season, the Labor Day hurricane was one of four Category 5 hurricanes on record to strike the contiguous United States, along with Hurricane Andrew in 1992, Hurricane Camille in 1969, and Hurricane Michael in 2018. In addition, it was the third most intense Atlantic hurricane on record in terms of barometric pressure, behind Hurricane Gilbert in 1988 and Hurricane Wilma in 2005.

That wasn't very hard to find.

SpaceNut · 2022-05-14 18:56:09

Yes wind speed measurements but they were not labeled as categories of strength...

All heat engines work with a difference of temperatures.

The same as pressure engines which use stored high level to pass through a turbine to a lower levels.

kbd512 · 2022-05-14 21:00:25

SpaceNut,

Wind speed and pressure are both objective measurement values. It doesn't matter what you or I choose to call it. We've already established or assigned category labels for measured values such as storm wind speeds that describe meaningful differences. I fail to see the point behind creating new category labels for storms that have already been labeled appropriately under the existing categorization systems.

Since adding a new category won't change measured wind speed values, what's the point behind doing that?

SpaceNut · 2022-05-15 06:25:18

That is like saying we do not need the Magnitude scales (Richter) for an earth quake, these are power within the category for force.

tahanson43206 · 2022-05-15 06:55:56

For SpaceNut re heat removal ...

In a recent post you mentioned in-house temperature of 90 degrees.

In earlier posts, you've described having ground water that is not potable, but it is available with modest pumping.

I've seen water flowing through cooling fans for public events, and wondered if something you cobbled together might help to keep the inside of a house cool on hot days?

The principle that I ** think ** is at work is that the water absorbs thermal energy from the hot, dry air as it passes through a membrane that is soaked in water.

This is a simple heat engine, if I understand the physics correctly.

As a follow up, here is a set of snippets from Google, showing examples of "water curtain" cooling systems

Water Curtain,Water Pad For Greenhousehttps://www.jdgreenhouse.com › water-curtain-water-pa...
Water curtain,water pad cooling system for greenhouse mainly used for ventilation and cooling in chicken farms, pig farms, greenhouses, factories, etc. Water ...
water curtain cooling devices from www.jdgreenhouse.com
Water curtain ventilation cooling system - 厦门万强环保科技 ...http://xmwk.com › product-121725-253765
In the humid areas (such as southern areas), generally can achieve a significant cooling effect of about 8-12 degrees; In areas with particularly hot dry ...
A WATER-CURTAIN FOR COOLING ROOMS: PRACTICAL ...https://jamanetwork.com › journals › jama › fullarticle
by WJ MANNING · 1910 — It is intended to show, by the illustration here presented, a simple, cheap, but effective, method for reducing the temperature and collecting dust in ...
Water Curtain Cooling System - Alibaba.comhttps://www.alibaba.com › ... › Air Conditioners
Wholesale water curtain cooling system come in a variety of options to suit your needs. Available as portable units, ceiling cassettes, or wall split units, you ...
Images for water curtain cooling devices
cooling pad
greenhouse
air conditioning
evaporative cooling
wet curtain
poultry
Water Curtain Greenhouse Cooling System / Fan And Pad ...https://www.film-greenhouse.com › sale-12898930-wat...
An evaporative cooling system consists of pads which are designed to absorb and hold water and give maximum surface area for air and water contact. As air ...
Packaging Details: STANDARD GREENHOUSE ...
Function: Plant Growing
Usage: For Agriculture
Place of Origin: CHINA
$50.00
water curtain cooling devices from www.film-greenhouse.com
High Quality Brown Water Curtain Cooling Pad Air Coolerhttps://m.made-in-china.com › product › High-Quality-...
1. The cooling pad is made from plant fiber pulp which mixed special chemicals, adopt the design of uniform cross flow structure. 2. Corrugated paper with the ...
water curtain cooling devices from m.made-in-china.com
Cooling Device Water Curtain with Fan Ventilation Coolinghttps://sd-erbang.en.made-in-china.com › product › Chi...
Model No. ... Cooling device water curtain with fan ventilation cooling ... Product Application. ERBANG Evaporative cooling pad-mainly used for ventilation and ...
$68.00 to $74.00 · In stock
water curtain cooling devices from sd-erbang.en.made-in-china.com
Cooling curtain made of a porous triple-layer membrane ...https://phys.org › Chemistry › Materials Science
Jul 26, 2017 — Climate change is leading to ever higher temperatures and aridity in many areas, making efficient room cooling increasingly important.
Cooling Pad&Fan System | Aeroponics, Greenhouse, ...https://www.pinterest.com › pin
Jan 31, 2019 - greenhouse cooling machine and system, greenhouse climate control, greenhouse water curtain, greenhouse fans, greenhouse air conditioner ...
water curtain cooling devices from www.pinterest.com

(th)

kbd512 · 2022-05-15 10:02:50

SpaceNut,

You made a statement of assertion, which was directly contradicted by historical evidence, that no hurricanes with wind speeds that would place them in "Category 5" under the Saffir-Simpson Hurricane Wind Speed Scale were recorded or "seen" prior to 1969, nor your proposed "Category 6", for that matter. I then provided a link to a hurricane with recorded wind speeds of 185mph at landfall that occurred in 1935, which would have placed it into Category 5, or Category 6 if it was defined the way you want it redefined.

Your argument is essentially that we need to define a new category for hurricanes that already fall into Category 5. There have been 37 storms that reached Category 5 intensity, recorded between 1924 and the present date. Over the course of a century, only 5 of those extreme weather events would fall into your proposed "Category 6" status. You want to create a new categorization for hurricane wind speeds, which defines something that's happened only 5 times over an entire century?

List of Category 5 Atlantic hurricanes

Why do those 5 existing "Category 5" hurricanes need to be redefined into "Category 6" hurricanes?

What will the addition of a new "Category 6" to the Saffir-Simpson Hurricane Wind Speed Scale do for us?

From my perspective, this seems like much ado about nothing.

SpaceNut · 2022-05-22 19:45:41

We are fast approaching the season First tropical disturbance of hurricane season will dump rain on MS Coast.

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#1 2022-05-12 10:24:05

Heat Engines Generic topic

#2 2022-05-12 20:09:28

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#3 2022-05-13 15:06:14

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#4 2022-05-13 17:11:21

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#5 2022-05-14 15:02:10

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#6 2022-05-14 16:29:52

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#7 2022-05-14 18:37:10

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#8 2022-05-14 18:56:09

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#9 2022-05-14 21:00:25

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#10 2022-05-15 06:25:18

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#11 2022-05-15 06:55:56

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#12 2022-05-15 10:02:50

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#13 2022-05-22 19:45:41

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