You are not logged in.
For SpaceNut (primarily ... all others welcome)
I am continuing to refine an application for development of the cloud harvesting / drone water delivery idea.
In the current iteration, I am seeing the project as an educational activity with incentives for schools and rewards for achievement.
This initial phase would NOT be a capitalist enterprise, with a profit at the end.
The monetary profit would come later, once the technical details are worked out.
The need is to provide fresh, desalinated sea water to needy customers in the United States and world wide.
By harvesting water molecules after they have been liberated from the oceans by solar flux, and after they have been transported over land by movements of the atmosphere in response to solar flux, it is possible to eliminate the costs and inconvenience of dealing with sea water.
At present, to the best of my knowledge, we have NO example of a working drone able to harvest water molecules from the atmosphere.
What we DO have are the ingredients that could yield that alternate future....
We have the idea itself in circulation in the (very small) readership of the NewMars forum of the Mars Society, and we have all the needed technologies already in use on Earth (and more importantly for this discussion, in the United States).
The challenge ahead is to inspire those who are receptive to the challenge of making working drones able to harvest water, and the challenge of building a viable long term capitalist business to make a profit by collecting and selling water.
There are already in existence private enterprises that collect and distribute water, and there are private enterprises that make and distribute desalination and water purification equipment.
Businesses set up to harvest the atmosphere for water would expand into that space.
The need for steady, reliable supplies of fresh desalinated sea water are already large, and they will keep increasing as the populations grow around the world, and as the stresses of climate change impose new burdens on farmers and city dwellers alike.
(th)
Offline
It would build a level of what it would cost to make it a profitable method to bring a supply of water to a remote area.
Offline
For SpaceNut ... just FYI ... I dropped a hard copy letter into the post box this evening.
It contains both the Interstate 80 pipeline and the Cloud Drone Harvesting ideas.
The recipient is unlikely to respond, or even to acknowledge the letter. That is normal for large organizations receiving unsolicited proposals.
Never-the-less, as a citizen, I have attempted to perform my civic duty, and now will resume day-to-day work on the topics, as well as others that may inspire attention from time to time.
(th)
So which form of collection was indicated for the drone air recovery of moisture?
Absorbent or super cooling?
Offline
For SpaceNut re #53
Thanks ** very ** much for your interest in the hard copy letter!
The proposals were written at the Executive Summary level, so details were not included.
What I ** can ** say is that the organization has staff more than able to investigate alternatives, as well as doing new research. My intention was to (try to) put the idea on the agenda, as worthy of serious consideration due to the long term benefits of success.
In the case of the pipeline, since the technology of pipelines is well known, and the Texas water pipe is an immediate example, the challenge is to solve the human problems, which are immense. On the other hand, the organization has the ability to perform miracles if it decides the proposal is worth consideration.
In the case of the Cloud Harvesting drone proposal, I wrote the summary to lean toward stimulation of creative thinking by the population of the United States, and particularly the high school and college aged population. The proposal would be adapted for funding of educational opportunities, and for funding of a prize or perhaps multiple prizes for demonstration of the various technologies.
There are a **lot** of techniques that have to be assembled into a single working system, and the specific mechanism for collecting water from saturated or humid air is just one of the challenges. It **is** an important part, without a doubt, and I appreciate your putting your finger on it as an element of a Critical Path.
The letter will take a few days to meander through the USPS, and then a few days to pass muster at the front office, so I'd appreciate your help in adding as much content to the two topics as we can over the next week.
I suggested the NewMars forum as a potential venue for developing both ideas. Whoever contacts us would expect the same level of confidentiality we extend to all our members! We do NOT publish personal information about any member, unless that person has posted something personal, and some of our members have done that.
Because of the speculative nature of both proposals, I would expect any organization to be careful about indicating any interest whatsoever.
(th)
Offline
No matter what system we use its got to way the cost benefits of the build/ maintenance to what the consumer can afford for the product that its producing.
Offline
For SpaceNut re #55
While your post makes sense, it is worth keeping in mind that fresh water that is NOT provided for free by Ma Nature will require investment of time and effort to bring it to where it is needed.
There is little point in lamenting that Ma Nature is not providing something for free. We humans have enjoyed the free stocks laid up by Ma Nature for a while now, and those stocks are becoming less and less, and eventually they will be gone.
At some point, folks will begin to decide to make an effort to secure what was long provided for free.
I'm sure they will complain, but Ma Nature could NOT possibly care less what we humans think.
The sooner we (humans) get started developing whatever solutions are needed, the sooner we will have a supply of fresh water that does not depend upon the vagaries of Ma Nature.
(th)
Offline
https://www.yahoo.com/news/water-thin-a … 00069.html
This machine cools the air to extract any moisture that might be present
How it is powered is not clear...
Reuters Videos
Water from thin air? Tunisian startup takes up challenge
Mon, June 13, 2022, 1:02 AM
STORY: Location: Jendouba, TunisiaThis machine transforms air into water
The founders hope the machine will find a solution to water scarcity
[Iheb Triki, Co-founder / Kumulus]
“This machine is called Kumulus, its goal is to make drinkable water from solar energy and air. The concept is to replicate the phenomenon of morning dew. So what happens? We see that the air enters from here and passes through the first air filter to clean it from pollutants, it then goes into the machine to cool down the water, so we replicate dew.”
Access to drinking water is a problem in Tunisia
The first Kumulus-1 machine has been established in a school
The school lacks proper access to drinking water
[Iheb Triki, Co-founder / Kumulus]
“We have a great water shortage in the Arab world. 12 of the 17 most water scarce countries in the world are in the Arab world. Water scarcity and the depletion of underground water are increasing due to climate change. This machine can do a paradigm shift, as it can produce water from air in Morocco, Algeria, Tunisia and Saudi Arabia, it can produce water from the moisture in the air. So it is one of the solutions to the problem of water scarcity that we suffer from.”
It can produce up to 30 liters of drinking water per day
Our goal is to create a safe and engaging place for users to connect over interests and passions. In order to improve our community experience, we are temporarily suspending article commenting.
(th)
Offline
I would like to toss out a question ....; I don't know the answer in advance, so look forward to any comments members might make ...
In Post #57, there is a report of a system to extract drinking water from humid air by cooling the air after filtering it for microorganisms.
If water is removed from the air, then the air has latent capacity to hold water.
As the drier air moves along, I would assume it would pick up any water molecules that might be available.
So! If a ** lot ** of folks extract what little water is present, I wonder what the net effect would be down wind.
It seems to me this would be similar to the situation that occurs when upstream folks consume the water in a stream.
The dry air will ** eventually ** reach open water where it can reload, but long before then it will travel over vast stretches of inland terrain.
(th)
Offline
https://www.weather.gov/source/zhu/ZHU_ … clouds.htm
https://www.usairnet.com/cgi-bin/launch … X&state=AZ
http://www.pepperridgenorthvalley.com/cloud_types.php
Of course the clouds you want are all at different altitudes and so is the moisture content. With the size of a clod its not likely to be impacted all that much by each drone pass. I would expect the winds to refill the trace of the drones path with in a short period of time as it would push the moisture back in to the created void...
Offline
For SpaceNut re #59
Thanks for those three links!
I note that regions with high pressure must contain just as much water vapor as regions with low pressure where clouds form.
Your prediction that a single drone flight would not produce a measurable effect on the water content of a volume of atmosphere seems reasonable to me. Where the prediction would run into measurable effects would be if we are running millions of drones through a volume of atmosphere, as would be necessary to take the place of the missing natural distribution of water.
Likewise, if the desert water harvesting machine in the post earlier today were to be duplicated by the millions, there would be less and less water in the air for any one machine to collect.
The water comes from open water bodies, and it does NOT come from parched land, so if the water from the ocean is harvested, then it is not replenished until the atmosphere is once again over open water.
The next stage of investigation would appear to be at the level of global weather analysis.
If we think of the atmosphere as a "river" of air moving across the landscape, like a river of water moves across the river bed, we can see that if we dip little bits of water out of the river, it will not be significantly diminished.
However, if we dip millions of buckets into the flow, eventually the flow will disappear.
Essentially, that is exactly what is happening to our existing rivers in the United States, and probably around the world.
The "buckets" are pipelines and aqueducts that draw water out of rivers, eventually drawing them down to nothing.
The same would (presumably) happen to the rivers of moisture born by atmosphere masses, if there techniques of harvesting water were sufficiently advanced.
(th)
Offline
For SpaceNut re #59 ... here's more follow up to your post ...
People also ask
How much water is in a cubic mile of fog?
What is a cubic mile of water?
How much water is in a cubic mile of rain?
How much water is in a cloud?
A typical cumulus cloud is about a cubic kilometer in volume, and has about 500 tons of water. Larger clouds can be much, much heavier. A big stormcloud could have over a million tons of water.
How much water is in a cloud? : r/askscience - Reddit
www.reddit.com › askscience › comments › how_much_water_is_in_a_clo...
These estimates provide a sense of the scope of the mission of this topic ...
We want to capture those 500 tons and deliver them to where they are needed.
A concern, as reported in recent posts, is how to pull water from the atmosphere without causing hardship to citizens down wind.
Clouds that are headed out into the Atlantic after passing over the continental US seem like good candidates for harvesting.
Perhaps there is a way for weather scientists to identify clouds that are up to no good, so they can be harvested before they do damage.
Any clouds over the Gulf of Mexico that are headed due East would seem to be eligible for harvesting, assuming that Florida is adequately supplied.
The clouds that would be of greatest interest would be those that are going to dump uselessly into the Gulf.
(th)
Offline
here is the first issue units of measurement imperial versus metric and why a lander namely Beagle went smack into mars.
It would seem that you need to fly in an area that is getting flooding such as yellow stone currently as that would relieve them of some of those flood waters.
Offline
For SpaceNut re #62
Thanks for getting into the spirit of the topic ...
** Removing ** water from heavily laden clouds was not in the original vision, so I'll go back and add it to Post 1
The ** ultimate ** demonstration of that technique would be to defang hurricanes and perhaps even tornadoes.
The ** first ** step is to be able to make the mental leap to be able to imagine that scenario.
You have helped me (and hopefully others) to make that mental leap.
That counts as progress in my book!
Regarding measurement systems ... can you give examples that are applicable to this topic?
The space craft that had the metric vs Imperial error was American, not British.
However, the Beagle ** did ** fail to land, as you pointed out. Is there a reference that shows the cause of the Beagle failure?
On second thought, this is a distraction from the topic.
Let's find another topic to discuss imperial vs metric and the Beagle landing failure.
I want this topic to concentrate like a laser on achieving the perfectly reasonable goal of creating a massive system of drones to harvest airborne water and deliver it to where it is needed. Whatever system is built is going to involve millions of aircraft flying in close proximity to civilian and military aircraft, so a global aircraft control system will be required. Mars_B4_Moon has been finding numerous references to advances in Artificial Intelligence. It seems likely (to me at least) that AI will be crucial for success with the drone water harvest, to coordinate flights.
The goal would be to deliver water to where it is needed so that each region on land has what is needed, while at the same time, no region has more water than is needed.
Ma Nature has been doing the work all these millennia but Her efforts do not meet human needs or expectations.
it is time for humans to give Ma Nature such assistance and guidance as are needed to improve Her performance.
(th)
Offline
I would say that the issue for a drone fleet is how large to carry back the mass of water desired and what will fuel them...
Offline
For SpaceNut re #64
Thanks for your additional feedback! I've adjusted Post #1 to show use of solar power to drive propellers on winged drones. In addition, I've added text showing that like the Albatross or Condor, or human glider pilots, these drones should be able to gain elevation by taking advantage of thermals (rising columns of air) and lift on the windward side of mountains, where the air rises to climb over the mountains.
Size of the drone is likely to turn out to be a sweet spot, where all the competing requirements meet at optimum values. However, I think it is reasonable to anticipate a range between a kilogram and a metric ton of payload.
(th)
Offline
For SpaceNut ...
Today's meeting of the local Linux Group included a wide range of topics, as often happens. Linux is quite stable these days, so attendees are permitted to drop off-topic questions into the mix. I tossed the cloud-drone question into the mix, and among the responses was a concern about robbing Peter to pay Paul. I'd worried about this in the topic, but here was a third party bringing it up as a major concern.
Atmospheric science would need to be enlisted to find out how best to harvest moisture from the atmosphere.
Clearly Ma Nature does a lousy job of random distribution of water, but the concern that human intervention might make things worse has a long history of being right.
(th)
Offline
Some say that the global temperature shifts are not only man induced. So if we want Ma Nature to change we must change as well.
The fossil fuels took millions of years to build up but man is going through them very quickly as a means to make thing easy.
Offline
For SpaceNut (primarily - others welcome) ...
The challenge of creating a water harvesting swarm of drones large enough to deliver water from where it is not needed to where it is needed is almost entirely a social challenge. There are very few technical uncertainties.
However, there ** is ** one ... In order for the system to work reliably over an extended period, it would be helpful to know where water is being carried along by the atmosphere, and where it might be harvested without causing injury to downwind "customers".
It is pretty clear that harvesting a hurricane before it reaches shore, or after it has moved offshore, is unlikely to be objectionable to most folks.
However, ** most ** water moves around the planet in less destructive forms than hurricanes.
There ** is ** an agency of the US government which has study of the atmosphere among it's many responsibilities: NOAA
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_ … nistration
In taking a first look at this web page, I note that there are agencies within NOAA that seem (by their titles) to be appropriate for this investigation.
However, the direction to invest any time in the initiative needs to come from the top.
***
Other agencies that I can think of right off the top:
FAA ... regulation of swarms of flying machines
FAA may already be regulating swarms of drones used for aerial light shows
FCC ... regulation of communication between individual drones and the control computer(s) that would be managing mass movements.
EPA ... It seems to me that distribution of fresh water might well fall within the jurisdiction of this agency. Obviously the agency has no influence over Ma Nature, but it definitely ** would ** want to participate in regulation of artificial water harvesting and distribution systems.
If you can think of other agencies would would (or should) be involved, I'd be interested.
To date, I have written only to the Commerce Department, primarily because water would be transported across state lines, so would fall within their jurisdiction.
(th)
Offline
Unmanned arial craft will always be in competition for bandwidth for signals to control these crafts no matter what size they finally end up being. This puts it well into the military arena as a weapon as well.
All good resources and here are a few more as we will want satellite maps of where the cloud cover is.
https://www.weather.gov/otx/Satellite
https://www.accuweather.com/en/us/national/satellite
Offline
For SpaceNut ... thanks for excellent looking links to study tomorrow!
It certainly makes sense that visible clouds would be an important hunting ground for water to be harvested.
Something to keep in mind though, is that much (if not most) water travels without being rendered visible by condensation. Still, the presence of clouds is a tip off to where water is moving from ocean to land.
What the mission planners need to do is to avoid draining clouds that are headed for customers where they are likely to be delivered by natural processes.
What is needed (as we think ahead) is a way to deliver a steady flow of harvested water to regions where water is NOT delivered naturally, such as the lee side of mountain ranges, and desert regions.
Once started, an artificial water delivery system is going to become essential to sustain, because when farmers become dependent upon a steady flow of harvested fresh water, they are going to expect that flow to continue throughout the duration of the growing season.
For many many years science fiction writers have been imagining planned rains, as their imaginations pictured a future in which humans have taken charge of water distribution. Now it appears (to me at least) that we (humans) have developed the precursors to allow that future to come into being.
(th)
Offline
It is time to bring this topic back into view.
I just wrote a gent who (may) be interested in pursuing it in a serious way.
There is NOTHING that needs to be invented to harvest salt-free water molecules from the atmosphere, but the only procedure ever used with any success is cloud seeding, and this topic is NOT about that antiquated and inadequate idea.
What ** is ** required is coordination between and among great numbers of human beings, and in the absence of a war or a severe medical emergency, such coordination is hard to come by.
Never-the-less, the Apollo program demonstrated that the ** fear ** of a war is a sufficient motivator to bring about astonishing achievement by literally millions of people.
The specter of Climate Change is on the horizon as a potential motivator, but (clearly) motivation at the required level has not yet happened.
This topic is set up to address the consequences of climate change, which seems inevitable in view of human inability to address it.
(th)
Offline
tahanson43206,
There's a guy in California with a YouTube channel who actually puts his money where his mouth is, regarding his green dream lifestyle, mostly going broke in the process (like most Americans, he thinks buying gadgets solves basic math problems), but he did a video on a new mesh and sponge technology that takes water vapor from the air. I thought it was really interesting. These materials work with as little as 4% relative humidity and up to 100%. I was floored at how much water a square meter of the material can pull out of the air per day. It's paper-thin and set into the ground on tent stakes with the collector sponge underneath it. Mold could develop on the sponge, but this would still be suitable for irrigation and feed water for a synthetic fuel plant. The tech is still lab technology, but it's not made from Unobtanium and at least appears that it could be mass-manufactured at a reasonable cost. It might last 5 years, maybe 7 years tops, before a replacement is required. Given that zero input energy is required to use these materials in conjunction with each other to collect what is essentially potable water, I think it's worth looking at.
This is a purpose-built atmospheric water vapor collection system, not rainwater, although it still does what it does when it rains. You could set the mesh / fabric out above the ground, sort of like a fence, the wind blows, the mesh captures the water vapor blown into it, the water vapor dribbles down to the collector sponge, and is piped into a holding tank, either fed into irrigation systems or into fuel synthesis plants. If you take the farm irrigation water demand pressure off the various rivers and lakes, then there's enough drinking water for places like California and Arizona.
Alternatively, you need a hell of a lot of power to desalinate sea water, by whatever method. This novel new option has to be the cheapest by virtue of energy cost (zero or near-zero- there is no power source other than gravity and some pumps to move the liquid water collected) and embodied energy cost (I'm not sure how much money a porous plastic will cost to manufacture, but it shouldn't be much more than existing plastics).
What if this could be made into a wing pod that would collect and then store in an internal tank as it flies.
Offline
For SpaceNut ... re #72 .... thank you ** very ** much for picking up on the possibility of kbd512's endorsement of your discovery.
I am hoping the gent I wrote today will be willing to consider the range of creative ideas that come from this group!
The project itself is going to require the cooperation of major agencies of the US government
I am expecting private industry to do almost all the work of producing machines and training operators.
On the other hand, Academia is going to be the logical place for study of wind patterns to find where to pull water vapor without disturbing natural flows to land regions where water is needed.
One benefit of the idea is that it can start small, with a single drone. However, beyond that early research and testing phase, the FAA is going to be involved in coordinating and controlling the movement of millions of drones.
The FCC is going to be involved in coordinating and regulating the frequencies needed for management of the fleet, which must be under positive control from takeoff to landing.
The Agriculture Department is needed to assist with allocation of water to farmers.
The department that manages forests is going to want water to be delivered to forests and grasslands under US management, and the States are going to want water for their properties.
I've probably just touched on a couple (few) of the agencies that will ultimately be involved.
(th)
Offline
Thanks to Mars_B4_Moon for finding and posting the links at the post below:
http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 71#p198771
It is good to see work underway to employ drones to deliver water for fire fighting.
This application is a subset of the scope of this topic, and it has the distinct advantage of urgent need and a prospect of copious funding.
Remotely controlled aircraft for water delivery is a whole lot ** better ** than sending human pilots into extreme danger.
(th)
Offline
Distance is the enemy when it comes to fighting fires...and it's the same for getting the volume required for use as well to the number of people that we need to provide water too.
Offline