You are not logged in.
With war very much on our minds, I think we should focus on how we make the war planet a haven of peace. Seems to me there are a number of principles:
1. Mars must not import Earth's conflicts.
2. Mars must have a unified system of governance with no right of secession. In this sense it would be similar to the USA as now is.
3. It is essential to establish Mars as an independent republic at the earliest opporunity.
4. The independent republic of Mars must assert its right to determine who may establish colonies and how.
5. Mars must have the ability to defend itself. What form this takes will depend on available technologies. However, certainly it should have the ability to swoop on any unauthorised settlement, deprive it of its energy and life support systems and take into custody all unauthorised colonists.
Worth noting that it will be very difficult to invade even a very small colony on Mars if it is determined to protect itself. The nascent Mars colony will have command of tens of thousands of material but any mission sent from Earth will find it very difficult to muster more than a few hundred tons to send to Mars.
An Earth power might be able to send a nuclear bomb to obliterate a target on Mars but it should be possible for the Mars colony to intercept any such mission before they descend to the surface.
Even a small colony numbered in tens of thousands might be able to defend its independence.
Last edited by louis (2022-03-25 15:15:34)
Let's Go to Mars...Google on: Fast Track to Mars blogspot.com
Offline
Like button can go here
Louis,
The best way to prevent Mars from becoming humanity's next war zone is to prevent lawyers, religious zealots, and other assorted homicidal maniacs from holding positions of authority. Retreating into fantasies related to futurism won't prevent that from happening, but education rather than indoctrination, as well as convincing enough people not to allow the very worst of our kind from representing us, stands a fighting chance of avoiding serious fighting. Conflicts are human problems that will follow us wherever we go.
Mars will eventually require its own military forces for self-defense, which will invariably be provided by the country on Earth that created the colony, but no Mars colony will be independent of anything within our lifetimes, and possibly several more lifetimes to come.
The military will consist almost entirely of very sophisticated sensor suites, lasers, and microwave systems that can fry incoming weapons. All of the land forces will be equipped with conventional firearms and personnel carriers armed with small cannons or guided missiles. Ukraine is teaching us that any small jet fighter or helicopter or armored vehicle can be destroyed by a small group of soldiers armed with handheld guided missiles or rockets, whenever its within range.
The good news is that the general trend amongst western military forces is towards smaller and highly accurate weapons that reduce the probability of collateral damage. We now have guided bombs and missiles intended to kill individual soldiers, rather than simply blow up an entire village to eliminate one soldier hiding somewhere within that village.
For that trend to continue, the assumption must be made that the combatants involved are rational actors and have a code of ethics similar to America's rules of engagement, which states that you only fire upon those who fire upon you, you positively identify your target, you make every effort to hit your target and nothing else, and that any deliberate attacks on non-combatants will not be tolerated.
Anybody who uses a nuclear weapon automatically invites a retaliatory attack in kind. To date, a pair of very small nuclear weapons were used to end the last World War at a time when America was the only country on the planet that had nuclear weapons. They've never been used since that time, and even the people we generally think of as tyrants view the use of nuclear weapons as madness. As long as rational actors are involved, they won't be used again. Twice was enough. We proved that nuclear weapons worked and that they're the most wantonly destructive devices that humanity has ever created. To their credit, even our military wasn't keen on using them, but orders were issued by civilian leadership and the military followed the orders of the civilians appointed over them. The issue of whether or not that use was appropriate has been hotly debated to this day. It succeeded in ending that war and those who survived benefited from the unparalleled prosperity that followed.
Offline
Like button can go here
For Louis ... This new topic of your has the potential to attract useful writing.
For kbd512 ... thank you for giving Louis' new topic a solid boost.
It seems to me the present situation shows the impact of failing to recognize a psychopath (by some) and failure to deal effectively with a psychopath (by others).
The psychopath can (and obviously did) weave a set of lies that ensnare an entire population.
This will happen on Mars as surely as it has happened on Earth countless times before now.
I think the single most interesting line in your important post is the one about 'rational" actors.
The fact is, humans ** are ** going to birth psychopathic personalities.
How the group in which they grow into maturity handles their arrival is the issue.
I don't know when the opportunity to nip the problem in the bud first occurred, in the present case, but ** someone ** received an order to kill another human being, and performed that duty.
One small success along those lines, uncorrected, has led to the mayhem we see today.
Louis... I hope your new topic attracts thoughtful commentary.
Good luck!
You'll need it!
(th)
Offline
Like button can go here
Mars must have a unified system of governance with no right of secession.
If you want to prevent war, forcing people to go to war if they want to govern themselves is not a very good way to go about it. I guess you can call the attacks by central government "security operations" if you want, to pretend Mars doesn't have wars...
Martian wars will be nowhere near as bad as the totalitarian planetwide society you're proposing to prevent them.
The real question is, why would Martians go to war with each other? Why do countries fight now? Establishing one group that thinks it has the right to own the entire planet is a very good way to ensure war. That seems to be the normal reason for war here on Terra.
Use what is abundant and build to last
Offline
Like button can go here
I don't view it as totalitarian. If you are saying that the USA is totalitarian because of its no-secession rule (confirmed since the Civil War began) then I disagree. The cultural values of states vary markedly. There's a big difference between Vermont and Alaska, between California and Florida.
I think if everyone coming to settle on Mars abides by a few core rules, then peace will prevail. But your vision would allow for billionaires and states to set up separate religious, ethnic, and ideological enclaves. We will simply import Earth's divisions and set Mars up for war and conflict.
My ten core principles would be as follows:
1. No secession.
2. All settlements must maintain democratic principles (free speech, elections to public office etc)
3. All settlements must maintain ethnic diversity.
4. All settlements must use English as the lingua franca of the planet.
5. All settlements must participate in the planet-wide governance of Mars.
6. All settements must commit resources to terraformation.
7. No settlment can be founded on exclusionary religious or ideological principles
8. No settlement can identify with or owe loyalty to any state on Earth.
9. All settlements must engage in free trade with the rest of Mars.
10. All settlements must use the Mars currency.
Mars must have a unified system of governance with no right of secession.
If you want to prevent war, forcing people to go to war if they want to govern themselves is not a very good way to go about it. I guess you can call the attacks by central government "security operations" if you want, to pretend Mars doesn't have wars...
Martian wars will be nowhere near as bad as the totalitarian planetwide society you're proposing to prevent them.
The real question is, why would Martians go to war with each other? Why do countries fight now? Establishing one group that thinks it has the right to own the entire planet is a very good way to ensure war. That seems to be the normal reason for war here on Terra.
Let's Go to Mars...Google on: Fast Track to Mars blogspot.com
Offline
Like button can go here
3. All settlements must maintain ethnic diversity.
Yay, mandatory miscegenation laws. Otherwise you run the risk of everyone becoming mixed and so no longer ethnically diverse.
I have no idea why you think humans will stop being humans just because they're on a different planet. Did that work in the US, which did indeed end up with one single government, ethnic diversity, a single currency, and English as the lingua franca?
Use what is abundant and build to last
Offline
Like button can go here
Well I think that would be more about the foundation of a settlement. It would prevent say white supremacists or CCP-directed Han Chinese for instance setting up colonies rooted in a particular ethnic identity. I would define mixed race people as being ethnically diverse in any case. I don't think we need to apply ethnic categorisation in an oppressive way but it should be a tool available to the Mars planetary government to assess colony proposals.
The way I would see this working in practice would be two processes:
1. When an entity (Earth state, religious body, company, charity, UN or whoever) applies to set up a self-governing settlement on Mars the planetary government would assess their application against a long list of criteria. This is what happens with the EU now re applicant states and I think it's not a bad approach. The applicant has to work through a number of "Chapters" (the EU has something like 30 I recall) showing that they meet the criteria.
2. Once the settlement is established I think it should be subject to annual review by the planetary government to ensure it continues to meet the criteria. If the review shows that there are concerns, then that could trigger a legal process and eventually the Supreme Court of Mars could order the settlement to be formally dissolved and for the planetary government to take over its territory and assets.
People won't stop being being people on Mars and that's why I am making these proposals. Equally, though, the Swiss haven't fought each other for 500 years and that's because they got their constitution right.
English has no formal or constitutiuonal status in the USA. It is only a lingua franca by common consent, nothing more. There is nothing to stop a future President conducting all his formal business in Spanish for instance. I would propose giving English a formal and constitutional status as the official language of the Mars Republic. This wouldn't be a Quebecois solution where you have legal sanctions against people who don't use it in restaurant menus. But it would ensure it is the language of legislation, justice, the state, and the education system.
3. All settlements must maintain ethnic diversity.
Yay, mandatory miscegenation laws. Otherwise you run the risk of everyone becoming mixed and so no longer ethnically diverse.
I have no idea why you think humans will stop being humans just because they're on a different planet. Did that work in the US, which did indeed end up with one single government, ethnic diversity, a single currency, and English as the lingua franca?
Last edited by louis (2022-03-22 17:53:27)
Let's Go to Mars...Google on: Fast Track to Mars blogspot.com
Offline
Like button can go here
Louis,
Common consent is the best kind of consent. When you don't have to force anyone to do something at the point of a gun, that minimally confers acceptance, if not agreement as well. I don't want America to ever have an official language or official religion or official politics. We have generally accepted principles or standards of behavior, along with a comparative handful of radicals who want to turn the board over instead of playing the game like everyone else does. I happen to like the fact that you can speak any language here, have any religion or none at all, and so long as you can pass a citizenship test, you're in. You have to swear loyalty to the law and the Constitution and to the Republic for which it stands, but that is the extent of our "official indoctrination". If you read the words, it's a fancy way of saying, "Do unto others as you would have done unto you." Those are words to live by. The "Golden Rule" is the gold standard for a reason.
Not one single human being has so much as set foot on Mars, so this discussion is rather academic at this point. However, whoever has the resources to go to Mars and set up a colony there is free to do so, sames as all the research stations on Antarctica, same as access to orbit around the Earth and the moon. They're not free to attack another colony simply because they can. If America has to use force to prevent that from happening, then so be it. Thus far, no scientists living on Antarctica have attacked each other, unless person-on-person violence over petty grievances counts. Basically, there's no organized violence there, and that's probably because they're all far too busy doing their work to engage in such self-destructive behavior.
The principle seems to escape all of our so-called "world leaders", and it's a funny thing, but when you give a man a job to do, food to eat, and a roof over his head, he's pretty content. Similarly, the majority of soldiers really seem to love peace. The ones who don't, well, some of them don't come back. At some point, it's really a question of "leadership in first principles".
Offline
Like button can go here
"If America has to use force to prevent that from happening, then so be it. " The USA doesn't even have a convinicing plan to get to Mars so the idea that they will be acting as Policeman on Mars is absurd.
You might think the discussion is academic. I don't think so. Any effort to set up anythng more than a scientific expedition will be highly political.
If Musk's vision comes true, his million person city will dominate Mars and will probably have an American flavo(u)r to it.
However that may just redouble the will of countries like China and UAE to build their own colonies.
Louis,
Common consent is the best kind of consent. When you don't have to force anyone to do something at the point of a gun, that minimally confers acceptance, if not agreement as well. I don't want America to ever have an official language or official religion or official politics. We have generally accepted principles or standards of behavior, along with a comparative handful of radicals who want to turn the board over instead of playing the game like everyone else does. I happen to like the fact that you can speak any language here, have any religion or none at all, and so long as you can pass a citizenship test, you're in. You have to swear loyalty to the law and the Constitution and to the Republic for which it stands, but that is the extent of our "official indoctrination". If you read the words, it's a fancy way of saying, "Do unto others as you would have done unto you." Those are words to live by. The "Golden Rule" is the gold standard for a reason.
Not one single human being has so much as set foot on Mars, so this discussion is rather academic at this point. However, whoever has the resources to go to Mars and set up a colony there is free to do so, sames as all the research stations on Antarctica, same as access to orbit around the Earth and the moon. They're not free to attack another colony simply because they can. If America has to use force to prevent that from happening, then so be it. Thus far, no scientists living on Antarctica have attacked each other, unless person-on-person violence over petty grievances counts. Basically, there's no organized violence there, and that's probably because they're all far too busy doing their work to engage in such self-destructive behavior.
The principle seems to escape all of our so-called "world leaders", and it's a funny thing, but when you give a man a job to do, food to eat, and a roof over his head, he's pretty content. Similarly, the majority of soldiers really seem to love peace. The ones who don't, well, some of them don't come back. At some point, it's really a question of "leadership in first principles".
Let's Go to Mars...Google on: Fast Track to Mars blogspot.com
Offline
Like button can go here
Louis,
I agree. The plan is not convincing. Nobody else has any plans, period. Does anybody else have closed loop life support? If not, then we can end the discussion there. Argue over the number of angels on the head of a pin all day, but it's not convincing anyone of anything. China is rapidly becoming an old folks home that can't feed their own people or keep the lights on. UAE Mars colonization? Seriously? Okay.
Offline
Like button can go here
Ground based lasers would be an effective way of destroying an incoming spacecraft a long way out in space. Multiple lasers could increase the surface temperature of the spacecraft above boiling point. Effective range is a function of beam coherence. If there is need to destroy hardened incoming warheads, then rail guns or coil guns could be mounted on Tharsis volcanoes. Few things are more devastating to an incoming target than a lump of iron accelerated to 10km/s.
Why we would need to do any of this is another question.
On Mars, the low gravity and thin atmosphere would make firearms more effective: greater range and accuracy. However, recoil would be more difficult to handle without losing balance in the weaker gravity. Maybe smaller calibre but higher velocity rounds would work better. The lower gravity would make it easier to more heavily armour space-suited personnel. Rifle bullets will be armour piercing - basically Teflon coated steel, with muzzle velocity exceeding 1000m/s. Calibre would probably be around 4mm.
Back in the 1980s there was a lot of research into the use of plastic bullets (the casing, not the projectiles). This is already standard for shotgun cartridges. It would effectively half the weight of ammunition. Does anyone know what happeneded to this line of research? Other options for boosting muzzle velocity and reducing ammunition weight, would be:
1. To inject liquid propellant into the combustion chamber, instead of solid cordite charges;
2. To use a light gas gun;
3. A coil gun or rail gun, powered by a flywheel or combustion powered linear generator.
With such a thin atmosphere and no magnetic field, Mars could make use of plasma based weapons. These could fry the electronics of spacecraft or electrocute human targets.
Last edited by Calliban (2022-03-24 11:06:58)
"Plan and prepare for every possibility, and you will never act. It is nobler to have courage as we stumble into half the things we fear than to analyse every possible obstacle and begin nothing. Great things are achieved by embracing great dangers."
Offline
Like button can go here
Musk is probably going to get to Mars on an expenditure of perhaps $20 billion max. UAE, Saudi, Kuwait and Qatar can all afford that...but of course it is difficult for them to co-ordinate the technological development in the way Musk can (people plus knowledge). But if they were prepared to throw money at the project - invest say £500 billion...well, who can say. You'd be able to attract the technical expertise with that sort of money.
Louis,
I agree. The plan is not convincing. Nobody else has any plans, period. Does anybody else have closed loop life support? If not, then we can end the discussion there. Argue over the number of angels on the head of a pin all day, but it's not convincing anyone of anything. China is rapidly becoming an old folks home that can't feed their own people or keep the lights on. UAE Mars colonization? Seriously? Okay.
Let's Go to Mars...Google on: Fast Track to Mars blogspot.com
Offline
Like button can go here
I would have thought a rocket with an explosive system on board would be the most effective way of destroying incoming spacecraft. But if it is a limited expedition of anything up to 1000 people. I think an established Mars Colony of say 10,000 would have no problem preventing them being able to operate after landing. Essentially you would attack their energy system, whatever that was, whether nuclear power or solar or whatever. You could probably get them to surrender even before they deployed their energy system if you moved in quickly and just used vibration on their landing craft to prevent them unloading their cargo. Imagine being subjected to non-stop disturbing vibration just after landing as you try to adjust to the change from zero G to 0.38 G!
Ground based lasers would be an effective way of destroying an incoming spacecraft a long way out in space. Multiple lasers could increase the surface temperature of the spacecraft above boiling point. Effective range is a function of beam coherence. If there is need to destroy hardened incoming warheads, then rail guns or coil guns could be mounted on Tharsis volcanoes. Few things are more devastating to an incoming target than a lump of iron accelerated to 10km/s.
Why we would need to do any of this is another question.On Mars, the low gravity and thin atmosphere would make firearms more effective: greater range and accuracy. However, recoil would be more difficult to handle without losing balance in the weaker gravity. Maybe smaller calibre but higher velocity rounds would work better. The lower gravity would make it easier to more heavily armour space-suited personnel. Rifle bullets will be armour piercing - basically Teflon coated steel, with muzzle velocity exceeding 1000m/s. Calibre would probably be around 4mm.
Back in the 1980s there was a lot of research into the use of plastic bullets (the casing, not the projectiles). This is already standard for shotgun cartridges. It would effectively half the weight of ammunition. Does anyone know what happeneded to this line of research? Other options for boosting muzzle velocity and reducing ammunition weight, would be:
1. To inject liquid propellant into the combustion chamber, instead of solid cordite charges;
2. To use a light gas gun;
3. A coil gun or rail gun, powered by a flywheel or combustion powered linear generator.With such a thin atmosphere and no magnetic field, Mars could make use of plasma based weapons. These could fry the electronics of spacecraft or electrocute human targets.
Let's Go to Mars...Google on: Fast Track to Mars blogspot.com
Offline
Like button can go here
Louis,
When last I checked, Elon Musk is an American.
The governments of UAE, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, and Qatar have almost zero interest in going to Mars. It's a scientific curiosity for them.
If going there was simply a matter of money, then someone would be there already. Since no human has set foot on Mars, I think we can safely conclude that merely having a lot of money to spend does not confer the capability to go there.
You can certainly attact a lot of people who want your money if you wave a bunch of it under their noses, but whether or not they're dedicated to achieving what you wish to achieve is another matter entirely. The people who work for Elon Musk don't do it for the money. They can go somewhere else and make better money while working fewer hours. That's not how his engineers get hired, though. So, no, this is not a matter of money. It never was.
Offline
Like button can go here
American, Canadian and South African I believe...
His company is registered in the USA I understand.
But Musk has made it pretty clear that his Mars community will be self-governing operating under its own laws, not those of the USA.
You really don't understand the culture of the Arabian region. All the countries I referenced seek to promote the Islamic religion - they are all completely explicit about that. They have very little interest in "scientific curiosity" for its own sake.
I made clear it wasn't simply a question of money. But with enough money you can begin to overcome the barriers to a successful mission. If UAE want to make their project a reality they would probably have to pay incredibly high salaries to the sort of people who can make it happen. But they don't have to be first. Why not wait until Space X solve all the problems and then just copy their solutions?
Louis,
When last I checked, Elon Musk is an American.
The governments of UAE, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, and Qatar have almost zero interest in going to Mars. It's a scientific curiosity for them.
If going there was simply a matter of money, then someone would be there already. Since no human has set foot on Mars, I think we can safely conclude that merely having a lot of money to spend does not confer the capability to go there.
You can certainly attact a lot of people who want your money if you wave a bunch of it under their noses, but whether or not they're dedicated to achieving what you wish to achieve is another matter entirely. The people who work for Elon Musk don't do it for the money. They can go somewhere else and make better money while working fewer hours. That's not how his engineers get hired, though. So, no, this is not a matter of money. It never was.
Let's Go to Mars...Google on: Fast Track to Mars blogspot.com
Offline
Like button can go here
Louis,
Does Elon Musk live in Canada or South Africa?
Yes, his companies are registered in America. That makes them American corporations, subject to American laws.
Since all of SpaceX's technology was funded in part by the US government, that government gets to decide what he can and cannot do with the technology.
You're right, I don't understand Arab culture. Neither do you, I suspect, since you live in the UK.
No, you really can't overcome technical problems with money alone. No amount of money can make people choose to devote their lives to a specific task. That's been proven again and again and again. You should probably ask the Chinese about why you can't simply "copy success". Why can't they make a jet engine that lasts as long as our jet engines do? They have plenty of money and engineering talent to throw at the problem, over many decades at that, but they still haven't come up with a home-grown jet engine design that comes close to matching something that General Electric or Pratt & Whitney or Rolls Royce produces.
Offline
Like button can go here
I would have thought a rocket with an explosive system on board would be the most effective way of destroying incoming spacecraft. But if it is a limited expedition of anything up to 1000 people. I think an established Mars Colony of say 10,000 would have no problem preventing them being able to operate after landing. Essentially you would attack their energy system, whatever that was, whether nuclear power or solar or whatever.
Wait. I thought you wanted to keep war *off* Mars? And now you're advocating for it as a matter of course?
Or do you just think that they'll accept being slaughtered?
Use what is abundant and build to last
Offline
Like button can go here
Ban islam on Mars, maybe another option might be to mock it constantly with funny cartoons or else reform it or class it as a dangerous subversive cult and tear out most of the pages of its books?
I don't believe in war, I was not sure if I would post here but then I started reading and could not avoid. Sometimes it will be almost impossible to avoid war, perhaps someone in Afghanistan doesn't want war but then some Taliban warlord comes around to their house shouting and screaming and making death threats asking if they are with this Nu-islam or Neo-verison of Muslim faith or not. This islamism or jihadist mindset will never co-exist with other cultures. It was the Fascism and Communism and Mass Murder Cleansing of its time, it has been given new life when idiots from the West or the East supply the islamic with high tech weapons technology, fools will claim it is a religion of peace, rightwing Bush and leftwing Blair calling it peaceful straight after the 911 attacks. However we have its deeds recorded and Thousands of years of history have shown what it is.
Sorry to dive in to an interesting discussion but I feel like I must reply
UAE, Saudi, Kuwait and Qatar can all afford that...
All these places are islamist theocratic systems, they do not want to afford the loss of a conquered brutalized mind, they are jihadi they are 'Absolute Monarchy', they are Sharia Law systems, they sit on top of an elite pyramid with million of miserable people under a control system. These sandbox islamism cultures are all about 'mind control'. What they want is to continue this control from the ghost of jihadists. Not all muslims will be terrorists some can have good quality as individual people, but islam is a backward oppressive system. These 'cultures' they want the islamic cultural centers, islamic death threats and jihadi mosques, they will want something similar to an Iranian radio tv broadcast or a Saudi Sunni Islam channel on Titan or the Moon or Venus or Mars first go out there to control any future colony. Even the first Malaysian in space had to comply with certain Islamic rules, a jihadist Fatwa Council even drew up the first comprehensive guidebook for Muslims in space, he was expected to find this religious craphole called 'Mecca' and pray into its direction was zipping around the Earth at 17,100 mph or 27,500 kph 16 times a day
In a ways it is a shame, because Arabia and Mesopotamia once produced wonders while people in Europe and Japan ran around in animal skin chucking spears at their food, North America perhaps mostly had Native nomadic hunter gatherer types. There is evidence some Native Americans had something there were a number of pre-Columbian cultures, forts that took some level of math and engineering and wisdom to build, Mounds and perhaps ancient Farming, Chaco Culture, ancient Viking contact and contact with other cultures in North America, the Cliff Palace of Colorado, the almost forgotten unrecorded people are collectively termed "Mound Builders" of Cahokia but perhaps no big revolutions of science. When islam arrived it destroys a region that was once ahead, it casts its mind control spell and moved an entire region backward while other parts of the world moved forward.
Today we can name so many scientists from the United States of America, from Japan, from Europe, India, Canada, Jewish Israeli Nobel laureates, researchers and technology leaders South Korea and other places that produce scientific wonders in biology, chemistry, so many prize winners, for new ideas on Nuclear energy, Chemical organic compounds. Awards and Prize for study of DNA and human blood groups, Prizes for studying electro microscope science and acid-protein complexes, work in quantum electrodynamics, Acknowledgement and Awards for advances in Science Photographic Data and Theoretical Physics, Thermodynamic math and dissipation structures, prizes for findings of the electrochemical the nervous system, ideas Computer Chips and new electro mechanics, yet nothing from moslim culture, only some stupid prize and some dumb medal for some stupid islamo jihad political thing.
American, Canadian and South African I believe...
Nikola Tesla was an outsider, he became an American. When he was young he probably first formed thoughts in Serbian, he was raised in the Austrian Empire, perhaps he eventually became a person of pure visual thinking, he formed pure math or sounds in his mind, or could draw things with audio and spatially as a guy on guitar or piano just knows where to go but with no real words, also called visual or spatial learning. These people might be on the scale of Autism and have a Nonverbal learning 'disorder' which isn't a disorder but more of an advantage, they can seem awkward socially and have little interest in the latest sportsball soccer basketball thing and show no interest in reality tv soap opera. Nikola Tesla got his opportunity coming to America and became as American as anyone else.
I believe Musk is something of the same, he's an outsider but he's as American as anyone can be. In interviews I can see and hear he's not just talking but often calculating percentages in his head right before he speaks.
Elon Musk has admitted to some of the more weird out there stuff he has posted online or tweets, I think Musk loves free speech. Canada, Aus and other places are probably far to Orwellian for him.
UAE to build their own colonies.
Arabic Emirate is not getting to Mars ...unless Elon Musk starts to behave like an idiot again, or maybe idiots from California, from Boulder Colorado, the Russians or the Kamikaze Japanese are dumb enough to launch islam into space
3. All settlements must maintain ethnic diversity.
Yay, mandatory miscegenation laws. Otherwise you run the risk of everyone becoming mixed and so no longer ethnically diverse.
I have no idea why you think humans will stop being humans just because they're on a different planet. Did that work in the US, which did indeed end up with one single government, ethnic diversity, a single currency, and English as the lingua franca?
Genetic Engineering is an interesting subject, although the Left today seem kind of radical there was a time when Neo-Con Republicans cut stem cell funding allowing Asia to get ahead.
I don't understand Arab culture.
I don't fully understand it either, I have listen to many of their people or translations of their people, from the dumbass jihad to the clever and witty ex-Muslim Atheist who tries to reform his own by writing only to be chased down by the mind controlled zombie like mob of jihadists
and I think you understand it better than most.
I think pre-islamic Arabic culture before Arabic became an official Religious Language, this Pre-islamic period is amazing to read. The rituals and Languages of Pre-Islamic Arabia and ancient temples are also interesting, its a shame and a crime islam has genocided so many pre-islamic cultures .
Louis,
The governments of UAE, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, and Qatar have almost zero interest in going to Mars. It's a scientific curiosity for them.
I would argue they do have interest to claim Mars, they want to plant their islamic Arabic flag and yet have little or no scientific curiosity in what makes our Solar System or the ancient question of are we alone and is there life on Mars, and its all about one of the oldest forms of warfare the mind, religion and propaganda. Psy-War and Arabic Mind Control and Symbolism, I don't really know how to describe it maybe like 'brainwashing' or the actions of some Witch or Shaman or Warlock. Spreading the mind control is about cultural conquest or using a political religion path to create subversion and Mind control on a new village or city, even if this village is in space, these idiots with their 6th century witchcraft spells and 6th century mindset plan on going there some day and sticking a jihad islamic flag in it. when did their witchcraft and warlock jihadi falg planting begin maybe in the 6th century approx 570 AD or CE to 609?
A new form of 'antagonist' set himself up in Mecca, from this DarkLord another tool of fear was used. Some people in our history will have different tools, they will use the tools of writing and paper to teach how to build a bridge, they might teach moral values, how to take care of kids, babies and teach folklore, others might write down foods and recipe or different musical notes, new ways to make a beer or wine, a new design of table or bike and they might write down how they made new instruments, instruments of war and art, and painting techniques. However some people use their knowledge simply to control others, almost all of their skills are used to spread this Psy-War symbolism and 'Mind Control' power against others. Think back of a science 2001 A Space Odyssey - one of the Monkey's an Archaic Human Primate picks up a tool to bash something, he is angry but curious, he stumbles upon a Bone and using a the femur, or thigh bone bone as a weapon.
But what if there was a different weapon out there, a weapon, a demonic haunting phantom djinn from the past of 1,400 years ago and ghost of a dead islamist you can not touch, something almost intangible to a rational person, almost sci-fi like a trans dimensional ghostly weapon, that engages in cultural conquest of minds.
Perhaps this 'Mind War' as happened to us for longer than we remember, long than we have writing. Perhaps it is instinct to go to 'religions' maybe long, long ago before we had history, before we books and wonder of art and writing. A primitive people painted symbolism onto a stone or a tree. for some strange reason unknown to us one the groups might have worshiped an 'X', another might have prayed to an arrow shaped symbol or simple picture of a spear, some other primitive might have prayed to a Cloudy Rainy shape or an 'O' or a Square or Triangle. Over time a split came, some worshiped Rivers more, other people prayed to Rocks or they thought the X symbol was very important for their ritual, maybe there was a crop failure and the others from one tribe decided the other group of primitive man prayed to the other 'gods' too much. These writing and pics started to have a life of their own, like idol worship these pics became sites and temples, the symbol supernatural almost mystical, the symbol becomes an edifice having a life of its own like a scifi or fantasy book, it comes to life like paranormal became a voodoo thing, then some basic form of Man got to see he could use this principal Temple and Symbol to control other hundreds and perhaps thousands of Prehistory Men, using these ghostly symbols to inflict mind control upon the many, perhaps the 'Temple' that had the stronger mind control over its own won, perhaps its win was short lived because it sent them into an intellectual collapse?
These cultures where their so-called prophet moohammad is seeing as the perfect prophet and the Quran or Koran is seen as a book which can not be questioned. These jihadi culture they are not in the curiosity of A.I they do not question if one day a machine could be alive, they do not start researching free-energy, they will not build Exoplanet Telescopes.
So why see that Moon symbol today over every mosque. Why the Penis, Yoni, Phallus and Lunar and BlackCube and Vagina idol worship symbols underneath islam? This new religion which claims to be the final say in the religion of Jews and Christian, it supposedly came from nowhere, it claims to be Jewish and Christian and also claims its a totally new book comes from the clouds or something, the man himself who founded it was an illiterate pedophile bandit terrorist. The thought his own donkey could talk to him, when his donkey said 'Hee Haw' the crazy murderous pedophile moohammad thought he could hear Arabic phrases. He also suffered fits and believed he himself was possessed by demons or djinn, other people passed on his words by way of mouth and eventually they captured a literate person to write the words of mohammad down. These revelations come to him, this prophet pops up he wants to loot, kill, take women as war booty and he has a sudden revelation given to him by his Moongod. This moohamamd claims the Christian Gods, the Adonai, El "God", Elohim Jewish God, Jew Shaddai "Almighty" God, the Almighty Lord, Germanic Christian One Gott the 'Dios' the South Korean Christian gidokgyo hananim and God of the Philippines churches or Dieu of Christianisme, Yahweh and Judean Tzevao Ehyeh are all the same God? It claims to be trueand everyone else 'infidel' and wrong and 'kaffir'
and yet if you examine the root of the Moongod al-Lah, it is nothing more than a Vedic Babylon Moongod of Pedophillia, Conquest, a Hindu god of Rape and an old Indian Death, a more evil wicked version of Al-Lat, a male war version of the female Moongod worshipped in a pre-Islamic Arabian. One site claims 'Kaaba came from the Tamil Language which originated around 1700BC.' https://haribhakt.com/kaaba-a-hindu-tem … y-muslims/ A stolen Hindu temple and worship of the Hindu deity Ganesh? https://balaji20.wordpress.com/2012/12/ … du-temple/ Vedic Hindu sacred scriptures in Arabia? https://krantikaribadlava.blogspot.com/ … slims.html There is much evidence trade existed from Greece to China to Egypt to India along an ancient silk road and also evidence this Indian Vedic culture once spread all the way across Iran and into Arabia, this Moohammad after getting himself kicked out for being annoying, he goes to Medina and builds an army, his followers are ordered to invade as immigrants by the trojan horse of migration, the mutil-cultural city of Mecca is invaded, the Bandit Army arrives all its hundreds of other gods and idiols smashed and then he dedicated Ka’aba for the worship of al-Lah, however the pictures have been leaked online, it seems the Temple and Ritual still shares much with the rituals of Hindu India, when muslims today go the Kaaba they perhaps unknown to themselves kiss the anus, kiss the vagina and penis of ancient Hindu and Babylon gods of Death, this is why ISIS go around smashing up pre-islamic history, because the religion itself has a foundation that is an absolute falsehood.
Last edited by Mars_B4_Moon (2022-03-25 14:06:21)
Offline
Like button can go here
Mars_B4_Moon,
All that was from my response to Louis that Middle Eastern countries generally view space exploration as a passing curiosity?
Most countries don't see space exploration as much more than satisfying scientific curiosity.
50 years have passed since America first went to the moon. Nobody else followed or went anywhere else.
The technology of today is more than good enough to accomplish much more than our lunar missions ever did, but none have even tried.
What does that say about humanity's general desire for exploration and knowledge?
It's mostly limited to very modest and concrete goals, and rarely done for its own sake.
If America doesn't push humanity into space, then it may not get done at all within our lifetimes. There's far too much inward focus, fixation on ideologies people disagree with, and general petty thinking and behavior. Don't become part of the inward focus, because that is always a losing proposition. To grow, to learn, to achieve great things, you must look outward, beyond yourself and what you know.
We must force the closed-minded to expand their thinking by expanding the worlds humanity inhabits. We must leave the cradle of life to take our place amongst the stars. If we do not move beyond Earth, then humanity is ultimately doomed in much the same way that the dinosaurs were doomed. If we do what we must, then that will not be our fate.
Offline
Like button can go here
Btw on the topic of government I think a single government Mono-Cultural Mars would become a boring sterile place.
Or maybe something worse.
Theocratic or Fascist or Stalinist in its own way maybe...road to hell is paved with good intention
Mars must have a unified system of governance
I imagine Mars will need help or loans from Earth for some time
However if it does become self-sufficient this 'One Unified Government'
I'm not sure this is a good idea, these lands available in space are huge areas, massive regions, the surface area of the Moon is massive, of Titan is massive, the Moon its Land Area I believe is just smaller than the continent of Asia, that is regions like China, Russia, Kazakhstan, Vietnam, Thailand, India, North and South Korea all combined....imagine trying to rule all area with many future colonists and different space corporations and family and rule all that with just one Government.
and Mars I think only slightly less than the total area of Earth's dry land,
how can you have a unified ruler of the whole of Earth?
If one culture does colonize Mars then at least split the planet and have the North and South in contest with each other. Hopefully the two governments would keep the other in check without an outbreak of war.
Mars_B4_Moon,
Most countries don't see space exploration as much more than satisfying scientific curiosity.
I believe a number of countries might still view 'Space' as a 'High Ground' or maybe Cultural Propaganda or National Science Interest or a Place of National Pride. For North Korea launching stuff up there is probably a military test rather than a scientific curiosity. The United States and NASA has by far the highest science feats in space and the biggest space budget but I believe China is now up there and per-Capita might be similar to the US level of spending, they might also see it as a tech military off shoot. The Soviet Russia budget has been high but with Ukraine-Sanctions I believe it is in collapse and might not recover. The ESA Europe has a big budget but it is dominated by a big player France, both Japan and India have a big budget. I believe France invests big because it wants FrenchGuiana, the Ariane rocket family and other French projects to lead, again it seems to be an Area of National interest or pride. It could be argued if all these areas are of 'space exploration' or their National French Technological Interests, some don't like nations cultures going against each other but I don't always see rivals as a bad thing, I think competition or 'Space-Race' stunts of who did it first can be of benefit to humanity. South Korea has recently started to massively invest in Space-Exploration but I think that might also be a thing of national pride, they have done joint stuff with Russians and the Russia sanction thing might cost them but they would Love to see a Town on Mars named Nu-Seoul. From Koreans I met they are somewhat nationalistic and would hate to go to a planet where everything was named New-Beijing or Mitsubishi-Town, if they go to Mars they will want to eat 'Kimchi' not BurgerKing or American or US Artisanal-style pizza or hotdogs or McDonalds, the Korean space tourist going to the new Koreatwon in space they will want their Manduguk foods, Soju alcohol drink or their K-SOOL, Bokbunja, Dongdongju, their Korean songs, Bibimbap....it might not be exactly like home, but new cultures when they set up their community always bring something of their language or culture with them, the S.Koreans would hate to be eclipsed by China and Japan.
So if Korea is planning on exporting its culture to Mars could they ever be accused of being culturally puritan, then let's have a look between the difference of Korea and islamism. Today in South Korea, nobody is going to go around blowing up music halls or making mass terrorist attacks to cartoonists that insult some Arab 'Moongod', nobody is going to run around South Korea in a mass murder rampage against Apostates who quit Buddhism and Christianity or quit some South Korean pagan folk religion. You might think its stupid to believe in the Tooth Fairy or Wonder Woman or Spider-Man or Santa Claus or WWE WWF Wrestling as a real thing but muslims have some of their own idiots so utterly brainwashed they are willing to blow others up because of the dead jihadi ghost of some fictional Moongod called al-Lah and they will kill people for their dead pedophile camel rapist prophet who has already been dead for the past 1400 years, that is how powerful the level of warlock islamist witchcraft and how strong their jihadi brainwashing works.
in fact I'm not even sure if Communist DPRK aka North Korea as horrible as it is could ever be as backwards as Afghanistan.
After the invasion of Afghanistan the USA spent 20 years trying to fix their nation, build them a country and the islamics themselves threw it all down the squat toilet.
In the Quran or Koran it says Moohammad has a talking donkey, the donkey said Hee-Haw and the psycho un-diagnosed mental patient moohammad would talk back to the donkey, it also says other anti-science nonsense like 'The Moon Split Took Place' maybe Moohammad ate some funny mushrooms that day or smoked something weird from the hookah shisha pipes which made the Moon break in half into two separate parts in his trippy mind. But if you question these books in islamic countries you are met terroristic assaults from a mob of angry locals or with threats of death.
Do not help export islamism to Mars, it is unwise and history has taught us that adding islam to a complex issue / problem only makes things worse.
I would prefer if the US was first to Mars as I think it exports the better values however.
If France or Japanese or S.Koreans or anyone else get to Mars on their own merit and even if its a source of nationalism then good for them!
Last edited by Mars_B4_Moon (2022-03-25 15:47:27)
Offline
Like button can go here
There are huge numbers of Arabs living in London and even more followers of Islam in the UK (millions now)!
Musk is a trinational. His place of residence does not affect that.
It's not at all clear that American laws apply on Mars. Via the Outer Space Treaty the USA has relinquished any claim to the land of Mars, so it's not at all evident that whatever happens on that land on Mars can be subject to US law. US Courts are known as being very aggressive when it comes to extending jurisdiction to other countries on Earth but this is another planet and it could within a few years be a planet with a self-governing entity. Musk has stated previously he hopes Mars will be a democracy. It can hardly be a democracy if it's ruled by the USA, without representation in Congress (remember your own history!). Other Earth based countries will be highly suspicious of any attempts by the USA to extend their legal authority to the planet. There might be some tenuous hold over US Citizens but Musk is not intending to limit colonisation to US citizens. Why should a French citizen be subject to American laws while living in a self-governing transnational community on Mars, on land that the USA has formally relinquished all claim to?
Louis,
Does Elon Musk live in Canada or South Africa?
Yes, his companies are registered in America. That makes them American corporations, subject to American laws.
Since all of SpaceX's technology was funded in part by the US government, that government gets to decide what he can and cannot do with the technology.
You're right, I don't understand Arab culture. Neither do you, I suspect, since you live in the UK.
No, you really can't overcome technical problems with money alone. No amount of money can make people choose to devote their lives to a specific task. That's been proven again and again and again. You should probably ask the Chinese about why you can't simply "copy success". Why can't they make a jet engine that lasts as long as our jet engines do? They have plenty of money and engineering talent to throw at the problem, over many decades at that, but they still haven't come up with a home-grown jet engine design that comes close to matching something that General Electric or Pratt & Whitney or Rolls Royce produces.
Let's Go to Mars...Google on: Fast Track to Mars blogspot.com
Offline
Like button can go here
Louis,
Well, that's rather odd, because Elon Musk himself says he's an American.
If other countries were so interested in space exploration, then why did Elon Musk choose to live in America instead of Canada or South Africa?
It's not at all clear to me that people from countries who have never sent a single person into space using their own technology get to dictate who can do what on another planet to countries who do send people into space.
America's legal authority extends to all American citizens, even if they do something in another country that that country doesn't consider illegal. For example, if another country thinks slavery is legal and an American citizen facilitates the practice of slavery, then the US courts can and will make legally binding decisions preventing American citizens from engaging in the practice of slavery.
If there's a colony on Mars, then it will receive representation in Congress. Guam is represented in the US Congress, for example. We still give people agency with our government, even if they don't come from an officially recognized US State.
Offline
Like button can go here
Space Wars between Mars, AsteroidBelt and Titan. Earth gets involved?
What side should Earth pick? The Outer Space Treaty was signatured in the United States, the United Kingdom, and the Soviet Union back in 1967. Then 111 Nation States, Kingdoms or Parties signed onto the treaty.
If a fight breaks out what is Earth expected to do? Decades into the future hundreds of thousands are in space. For whatever reason a proxy war breaks out between Titan, Mars and Asteroid Belt people, inside the planets and Moons and colonies there is also fighting. A lot of nations invested a lot of money to establish these bases, towns and colonies. Destructive hyper rail weapons and laser weapons of death are unleashed across space colonies, thousands are dying, images are broadcast across tv. The governments of Earth have far more powerful military systems but some regional governments are starting to blame each other, more images come out, some blame is put in the direction of certain people.
The Moon Treaty is generally seen as a failed political expansion of the Outer Space Treaty.
Would the USA and 'The Space Force' be expected to keep the peace in space, should a World Government Police Arrest anyone who might be linked to the Crimes on Earth or would it become something like a Solar system U.N
If other countries were so interested in space exploration, then why did Elon Musk choose to live in America instead of Canada or South Africa?
I will jump in, I'm not an American but I like the place and it is interesting, I'm neither for nor against gun rights it matters little to me and I'm not a US Citizen. Some Americans tell me its not a perfect place an evolving place and a work in progress. I'm guessing Elon Musk made the logical choice to choose the better place for him, his dreams of a tech company and the best choice for his family.
The United States has an interesting Constitution
A First Amendment where you can speak freely
You can have a gun and defend your family and property with the 2nd
I guess the Third is interesting
the Fourth Amendment to the US Constitution which bans unreasonable searches and seizures, the need for any police to first have search warrants based on probable cause.
I don't remember much of the rest.
The 8th a prohibition on cruel and unusual punishments?
Not all of it is perfectly wrote. Mistakes have been made.
18th for example where they tried to ban booze and gave power to the Mafia was probably a mistake.
For all problems the United States of America might have, few countries have the rights America has. I don't think any country respects the right to speech and other forms of protest expression like the USA has although each year political people try to take these rights from Americans, especially the 1st and 2nd.
I personally do not believe Mars should have 'Gun Rights', can you bring guns inside science labs or subs or cruise ships, you cannot carry a gun on a plane if you are off-duty, no amount of paperwork can change that. I believe Soyuz people had a 1960s type of gun that was something of a mix between a shotgun and pistol but that was only because of an emergency where they could land off course in Siberia with wild Bears and Tigers.
Last edited by Mars_B4_Moon (2022-03-25 17:17:53)
Offline
Like button can go here
No, I wasn't advocating for this - just pointing out that you don't need lasers. The advantage definitely lies with the defenders on Mars. The invaders will have given away their position for six months. Mounting a large expeditionary force from Earth sufficient to overwhelm a colony of 10,000 would be prohibitively expensive. Probably only a few Starship equivalents could be afforded as part of an armed invading force.
I think it would be easiest for the Mars Republic to immediately disable the invaders on landing. I think the most effective weapon would be something that generated disturbing vibration which would make unloading of the invaders' rocket impossible and disrupt life on board. So something that could send high energy sound waves towards the landed rocket.
I suspect any invading force would simply surrender within a few hours. If the invader rocket was capable of firing explosive shells etc at Mars units, then I think after a warning you would deploy drones in considerable numbers to destroy their craft. There would unlikely be any survivors from such a drone attack. That would only be in extremis. But are Earth States really going to send war rockets to take on the Mars colony?
If a Mars Republic were to be established in the way I suggest, I think war would be very unlikely to break out. There would be tensions but not necessarily war. The USA would likely play along with a Mars Republic that had at its core Space X involvement. They wouldn't necessarily recognise the Mars Republic's authority but they would be happy for NASA to use the Republic's facilities, maybe providing a platform for further prestigious exploration of the outer solar system. The Republic would I am sure license lots of scientific expeditions by Earth states. Maybe a licensing system wouldn't be required - it would simply be declared that purely scientific expeditions of under 50 people were allowed. What it would not do is allow Earth States to set up their own colonies without prior approval of the Republic. No doubt some Earth States would test the boundaries but as long as the Mars Republic was growing at the sort of rate envisaged by Musk, then their colonies are still going to be puny by comparison. The Mars Republic can exert its own pressures e.g. declaring a PV field or other energy facility in that area un authorised.
A Mars Republic growing to 10,000, 100,000 or a million will just be too big for Earth States to challenge in my view.
I would have thought a rocket with an explosive system on board would be the most effective way of destroying incoming spacecraft. But if it is a limited expedition of anything up to 1000 people. I think an established Mars Colony of say 10,000 would have no problem preventing them being able to operate after landing. Essentially you would attack their energy system, whatever that was, whether nuclear power or solar or whatever.
Wait. I thought you wanted to keep war *off* Mars? And now you're advocating for it as a matter of course?
Or do you just think that they'll accept being slaughtered?
Let's Go to Mars...Google on: Fast Track to Mars blogspot.com
Offline
Like button can go here
One day Mars if it has simialr type of human, politics and religion then might have an extreme series of crimes, how will it people and groups respond, deal with and re-act to its shocking criminal news?
'A woman is arrested in South Korea after bodies are found in New Zealand'
https://www.npr.org/2022/09/15/11231041 … ew-zealand
Offline
Like button can go here