Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

Void · 2022-04-25 20:40:53

Today at the topic: "Index» Human missions» Starship is Go...", post #1637, from GW Johnson, something I see as a shiny object:

Quote:

GW Johnson
Member
From: McGregor, Texas USA
Registered: 2011-12-04
Posts: 4,814
Email Website
BTW, as a follow-up, again using the old data, here is what Starship might possibly be able to do as a single-stage round trip ferry operated between the surface and low Mars orbit.
Surf circ orbit speed eastward: 3.6 km/s, factor = 1.02 factored dV = 3.67 km/s
rendezvous and dock budget 0.2 km/s factor = 1
deorbit burn .05 km/s factor = 1
landing pull-up, flip, and touchdown near 0.4 km/s factor = 1.5 min, factored dV = 0.6 km/s
total factored dV = 4.522 km/s
vac Raptor Isp = 380 s, effective Vex = 3.7265 km/s
required MR = exp(dV/Vex) = 3.3651
propellant fraction = 1 - 1/MR = .7028 = Wp/Wign
if Wp = 1200 m.tons, Wign = 1707 m.tons, leaving inert + payload = 507 m.tons
if inert = 120 m.tons, then payload = 387 m.tons, which is much more than I really expected.
However, if the inert is higher, nearer 200 tons, then payload maxes-out at 307 m.tons. Still very attractive for ferry operations at Mars, loading/unloading a big ship in orbit!
So, what happens if the inert is higher to cover the legs needed to make rough-field landings on soft fine sand, AND the factored landing dV is higher, nearer 1 km/s, to be "safe" for human transport? Then:
dV =4.92
MR = 3.7444
propellant fraction = .7329
at 1200 tons propellant, Wig = 1637 m.tons
payload plus inert = 437 m.tons
if inert = 200 tons, them max payload = 237 m.tons. If the design proves out at all, that's pretty close to what I would expect from it.
GW
Last edited by GW Johnson (Today 13:22:28)
GW Johnson
McGregor, Texas
"There is nothing as expensive as a dead crew, especially one dead from a bad management decision"

I will remove the quote if the author requests it.

I am guessing that this is for a Starship that is generalized for interplanetary service, not specialized to do a "Bring-Down" function. It does look encouraging.

Tilting towards robotic cargo Earth/Moon(Orbit(s))>Mars Orbit(s), I will list some possible described methods for cargo transfer to Mars oribts.

Nuclear and/or Solar:
-Mass reactions, (Expulsion of Mass).
-Photon (Solar).
-Ion Electric.
-Magnetic Solar wind.

In some cases these may involve some form or Aerocapture, (Hohmann or Ballistic Capture methods).
In some cases these may involve Ballistic Capture.

I am enjoying the notion that hardware made on or about the Moon, could be made of materials from the Moon and a bit from the Earth. Some of that hardware to be shipped to Mars Orbits.

------
So, I am under the impression that I might guesstimate notions of Starship for the Moon, to get stuff to orbit(s), in Part for delivery to Mars.

Yes Mass Drivers and other exotic methods are likely to show up, but I want to see what might be done using Starship, or Terran-R, or perhaps a derivative of Neutron that may come some day. These are currently considered to be Metha-Lox.

I will hope that the Hydro-Lox people will also show up eventually.

So, starting with Lunar Starship as an example.

I am going to do a trial balloon for this.
-Metha-Lox will come from the Earth to Lunar orbit by tanker.
-Oxygen will come from the Moon.
-The above will allow landings and launching, Lunar(Orbit)<>Moon.
-But I do not wish to consume more Methane than is necessary, so;
-Add on Aluminum fuel Solid or Hybrid outrigger rockets to the Lunar Starship.

*About that, Solid or Hybrid outrigger engines, possibly with Aluminum as fuel.
So, unlike the Space Shuttle, or New NASA child of Space Shuttle, the outrigger rockets would not be detached. I suppose that could offer some problems in balance, should one keep burning, so that would need to be handled. So, then you would have to expend Metha-Lox propulsion to land the Starship with Outrigger rockets, but the Outriggers would do most of the lifting from the Moon's surface.

So, of course these being for the Moon, I am hoping that they will not need as thick the cases as would the Space Shuttle Solids.

I recall that Isaac Arthur seems to indicate that Aluminum and Oxygen might make fairly good rockets from Lunar materials.

I do not know what construction for those. I do recall the "ALICE" rocket. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ALICE_(propellant)

I would regret the Hydrogen consumed but it would be a start. I wonder if it could be converted into a hybrid by adding an Oxygen flow, making it a combination Solid/Hybrid rocket.

Other possible references: (Query: "Isaac Arthur Aluminum and Oxygen rocket")
https://www.researchgate.net/publicatio … xperiments
https://metefotatozetekih.coffeecompany … 3588pz.php

So, maybe it is a good path sort of.

I like it as you can begin with strait Metha-Lox for everything, maybe get Hydro-Lox as an alternative, and then build up a Maker for Aluminum based propulsion methods, and then create a Lunar Starship 2.0 which would have "Strap-On", Aluminum based outrigger rockets.

-----

And with that and 3D printing, it may be economical and practical to create and lift hardware for Mars and other purposes, to be shipped by efficient/effective methods to other places, perhaps Mars.

Things like mirrors may be delivered both to surface and Martian orbits. Also, lots of other hardware.

I then also recommend a specialized version of Starship that can serve to do the "Bring-Down" function.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-04-26 08:37:22)

Void · 2022-04-26 08:42:20

Following on recent posts, I wish to think of the sun's output as a river like situation, except that it does not flow down one channel, but rather expands in many directions. We could call it the "Sun's River Flowage".

We have mostly been involved in competitive concepts. The conflict, may not be sensible at all however.
The three main sibling objectives are:
1) Moon
2) NEO's
3) Mars

Here the favored child is Mars of course, but lets also love the others.

If we had a river flowage, then I might imagine Earth>Moon>NEO's>Mars>Else.

Now don't get excited, I am fine with an early leapfrog to Mars prior to the full establishment of the system suggested above. Do as you like and as you can. It is better to scout out Mars anyway before you pour the main concrete.

It should be very possible to do a Mars starter, then begin sending hardware by efficient means to Mars, and while still doing that do a Earth>Moon>NEO's>Mars>Else.

Where the Earth supplies virtual labor to the Moon using telepresence, and AI.
Where the Moon supplies raw materials and built hardware to Mars, but also to NEO's.

The think about NEO's is that they suggest opportunities and threats. The answer could be to Control/Consume them.
If I understand the situation, these may get nudged into their current orbits, and may eventually leave those orbits, or hit a world such as the Earth. New ones then might get nudged into our way over time.

The attraction of Mars is that it has the chemicals needed, and is close to habitable. It is presumed that a bit of work can convert it into a profitable place for humans to continue their patterns of life.

It is thought that the Moon is much less so. Even so, it is an object of interest.

The NEO's are a case by case situation, likely not the same as each other, but likely similar.

It seems reasonable that eventually synthetic worlds will be constructed in the Earth/Moon system. The notion currently is to move things like Water and precious metals to the Earth/Moon system for various reasons. Some have suggested that indeed the Iron and such of the NEO's could be used to construct things at those locations.

Synthetic worlds in the Earth/Moon system may be expensive as the Hydrogen/Nitrogen/Carbon may be a high cost. Not sure that that will not be overcome, but we might assume it for now. So, some will be wanted, but what if more are then "Sent" down the river?

Other methods may be employed, but I suggest skeleton crew worlds constructed from the Moon, in part, with Earth virtual labor, then sent to NEO's, to be expanded and built up, and then sometimes to be sent to a destination world such as Mars. But the destination world might be other. Ceres, Callisto, 16 Psyche, and perhaps Mercury, using several gravity assists.

I favor using Magnetic Sails, for this, the journeys to be of years and decades for completions.

And of course, once you "Controlled/Consumed" all the NEO's, then their are any number of other small suitable objects to do the same with.

I am sure that major revisions will be wanted of plans. I will pause to make a very simple drawing.

OK, so this might be for a handful of people to be present on. The green area would be very habitable, the pink as minimally habitable,

The idea is to construct this largely from Moon materials and then fly it to a NEO, where it should be made more substantial and expanded to take new settlers.

Lets have a look at NEO's in general: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Near-Earth_object
Quote:

There are over 27,000 known near-Earth asteroids (NEAs) and over a hundred known short-period near-Earth comets (NECs).[1]

So, I am supposing that with synthetic gravity and learned methods, the raw materials could be converted to resources.

And then even flown to a place like Mars over a period of time and having oceans and even better habitability imparted to them, allowing expanding populations.

Of course if you want more internal oceans, beyond Mars the raw materials vastly exist for it.

Some may point out that many NEO's may be dry of what is needed. Well then first visit a wet one, create a lake/sea of water, and the go to a dry one, and consume it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asteroida … er%20means.
Quote:

Asteroidal water
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to navigationJump to search
Asteroidal water is water[1][2][3] or water precursor deposits such as hydroxide (OH−[4]) that exist in asteroids (i.e., small Solar System bodies (SSSBs) not explicitly in the subcategory of comets).[5] The "snow line" of the Solar System lies outside of the main asteroid belt, and the majority of water is expected in minor planets (e.g. Kuiper belt objects (KBOs) and Centaurs). Nevertheless, a significant amount of water is also found inside the snow line, including in near-earth objects (NEOs).
The formation of asteroidal water mirrors that of water formation in the Solar System, either from transfer via bombardment, migration, ejection, or other means. Asteroidal water has recently been pursued as a resource to support deep space exploration activities, for example, for use as a rocket propellant, human consumption, or for agricultural production, etc.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-04-27 11:09:39)

Void · 2022-04-27 11:10:08

This again, a very simple drawing:

The green circle is sort of a gondola spinning around a balloon. (If you want to see it that way).

A skeleton crew might be 3-100 people. A green zone might be heavily shielded from radiation with processed materials such as metals, and plastics. This could be relatively small. A gym/bedroom(s)/Kitchen/Office area?

The Pink zone would be less well developed and less massive per unit of volume.

This sort of drive:
http://www.niac.usra.edu/files/studies/ … 0structure
https://www.centauri-dreams.org/2017/12 … nd-beyond/

So, you might send this device without crew to a NEO, and then send a crew to it. First work would be to take all the shielding materials and convert them to hardware by 3D printer. While you consumed the radiation protection, you would replace it with asteroid materials.

And so, then over time expand into the Pink Circle, and allow for more crew to show up, and indeed eventually fly this whole thing to a place like Mars or other.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-04-29 07:50:45)

Void · 2022-04-28 08:09:21

Well, this showed up about water on the Moon: https://phys.org/news/2022-04-earth-atm … lunar.html
I see two interesting items:
1) Quote:

Earth's atmosphere may be source of some lunar water
by Rod Boyce, University of Alaska Fairbanks

2) Quote:

The new research estimates the moon's polar regions could hold up to 3,500 cubic kilometers—840 cubic miles—or more of surface permafrost or subsurface liquid water created from ions that escaped Earth's atmosphere. That's a volume comparable to North America's Lake Huron, the world's eighth-largest lake.
Researchers based that total on the lowest volume model calculation—1% of Earth's atmospheric escape reaching the moon.
A majority of the lunar water is generally believed to have been deposited by asteroids and comets that collided with the moon. Most was during a period known as the Late Heavy Bombardment. In that period, about 3.5 billion years ago when the solar system was about 1 billion years old, it is argued that the early inner planets and Earth's moon sustained unusually heavy impact from asteroids.
Scientists also hypothesize that the solar wind is a source. The solar wind carries oxygen and hydrogen ions, which may have combined and been deposited on the moon as water molecules.
Now there's an additional way to explain how water accumulates on the moon.

Probably there is less than what #2 speculates, but likely it is a lot.

There is likely Carbon on the Moon as ice and in regolith, but it may not be economical or sufficient to desires and needs.

I would think that one scheme if necessary would be for Starship to carry Carbon. It might dump it overboard during landing, to reduce required hover thrust. Carbon has a very high vapor pressure I believe.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon
It is very high: Quote:

Phase at STP solid
Sublimation point 3915 K (3642 °C, 6588 °F)
Density (near r.t.) amorphous: 1.8–2.1 g/cm3[2]
graphite: 2.267 g/cm3
diamond: 3.515 g/cm3
Triple point 4600 K, 10,800 kPa[3][4]

So, I have a notion about bringing Carbon to the Moon. I think variations of it might be workable. There could very likely be others.

Twirl skirt/chains: https://giphy.com/gifs/classic-film-len … VoDYOvuASs

So, you deploy a skirt of chains outside a ship like Lunar Starship, twirl the ship a bit, and land. The Chains/Skirt, impact the surface prior to the actual landing of the Ship, and so as the ship approaches the landing, its weight becomes less, as more and more of the Chains or Skirt will be in contact with the Lunar surface. It may be that it would be wanted that a finer grain material would be on the landing pad to lubricate the twirl.

But at some point prior to landing it may actually be possible to detach the chains/skirt to allow it to impact, in which case the Starship would be greatly released of it's payload prior to its final landing process. Polite people will not look at the engines in this case as it may Embarras the ship.

This would involve a bit of "Lithobraking", but not so much that the cargo would disperse excessively.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithobraking

There may be concerns about backlash/splash where the materials may bounce back to the ship and damage it. So centrifugal force may reduce this possibility, and of course all sorts of other factors.

Carbon would not be the only substance where this could be done. Plastics, and Metals might also be done as well, as perhaps other materials.

------

A curious notion would be to retain the skirt and use it as a hover bubble. The engines exhaust under it, this then perhaps being assistive in landing.

------

To do this on Mars might be possible, if the "Skirt" were held inside the engine bell about the perimeter of the engines.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-04-28 08:33:08)

Void · 2022-04-28 08:50:40

In the just prior post, I recommend that the skirt/chains, and the landing legs would be one time use, at least for the Moon, as they could be considered "Assistive Cargo".

Assistive cargo would be cargo that helps in a mission and then is recycled to some other further purpose.

In the case of Carbon likely to make Methane with Lunar Ice. In the case of Plastics and Metals, then into a 3D printing process. This would be the most valuable in the beginning of a Lunar base but might continue afterwards for some cases.

Certainly, some of this could apply to other worlds, Ceres, Callisto?

Obviously, Plastics will be very hard to do this with, but I would suggest that with further innovations it might be possible.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-04-28 08:51:50)

Void · 2022-04-28 11:47:16

About NEO's:
https://www.space.com/water-rich-astero … -fuel.html
https://www.space.com/how-much-water-in-asteroids.html

Truth is it seems like nobody really knows how much water is in them.

This then about the possibility that perhaps 1/2 of Earth's water came indirectly from the solar wind: https://singularityhub.com/2021/12/02/u … pace-dust/

This makes me wonder about Phobos and Deimos and asteroids like them that have a large "Void Spaces" in them, and may be being bombarded by the solar wind. What is inside? I am thinking more adsorption than actual ice.

So, in certain ways, our solar system has a sort of humidity.

https://www.scientificamerican.com/arti … 24-themis/
Quote:

Water Ice Found on the Surface of an Asteroid for the First Time
The asteroid 24 Themis has organic material and a layer of frost, bolstering theories that asteroids could have seeded Earth with both water and the precursors to life
By John Matson on April 28, 2010

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/24_Themis
Quote:

Ice
On 7 October 2009, the presence of water ice was confirmed on the surface of this asteroid using NASA’s Infrared Telescope Facility.[14][15] The surface of the asteroid appears completely covered in ice. As this ice layer is sublimated, it may be getting replenished by a reservoir of ice under the surface.[16][17]
Scientists hypothesize that some of the first water brought to Earth was delivered by asteroid impacts after the collision that produced the Moon. The presence of ice on 24 Themis supports this theory.[16] Because of its proximity to the sun (~3.2 AU), the widespread ice on the surface of 24 Themis is somewhat unexpected. The surface ice may be replenished by a sub-surface reservoir of water or impact gardening—a lunar phenomenon in which the moon overturns surface material at a rate of 1 m/ Gyr.[16]
An alternative mechanism to explain the presence of water ice on 24 Themis is similar to the hypothesized formation of water on the surface of the Moon by solar wind. Trace amounts of water would be continuously produced by high-energy solar protons impinging oxide minerals present at the surface of the asteroid. The hydroxyl surface groups (S–OH) formed by the collision of protons (H+
) with oxygen atoms present at oxide surface (S=O) can further be converted in water molecules (H
2O) adsorbed onto the oxide minerals surface. The chemical rearrangement supposed at the oxide surface could be schematically written as follows:
2 S-OH → S=O + S + H
2O
or,
2 S-OH → S–O–S + H
2O
where S represents the oxide surface.[15]
Organics
Organic compounds were also detected on the surface of Themis[16][17] in the form of tholins, high-molecular weight organics found in the outer solar system, distinguished by a brown or reddish color in optical spectra. Compounds found in the spectra of Themis include ice tholin (the residual of an irradiated mixture of water ice and ethane), asphaltite, carbonaceous meteorite material, and polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons.[17][18]

I did divert to main belt asteroids, so not NEO, but it is good to get a sense of what is out there.

Typical NEO mining suggests bringing water back to Earth to become rocket propellants.

I prefer to think to learn to use Oxygen as a throw mass to propel ships in many situations. I would consume the water and other volatile materials at the asteroids.

Some of these asteroids gradually converted to spaceships/worlds, could be gradually flown outward to places like Mars, where even more volatile materials might be acquired.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-04-28 12:05:29)

Void · 2022-04-29 07:15:02

This morning, I return to the observation that Phobos and Deimos seem rather similar to asteroids. So, then as there is likely to be a "Mars Direct" attempt(s) to set up on the Martian surface, then it seems reasonable to consider developing methods to access and use NEO's by pioneering it for those two moons.

This would be easier in many ways, as if the materials wanted prove hard to get from those two moons, chances are that materials needed might be obtained from Mars itself. Also, the gravity well of Mars makes possible the use of Ballistic Capture to get materials to an orbital effort.

The formation theories for these moons are various, and might also be combinational. The classic notion of hot impact of Mars and loss of volatiles from boil off, may be true, but likely there will prove to be other features in the histories of these moons. So, I consider it to be of enormous value to discover better the nature and histories of these moons.

To the extent that these objects might be partially from an original accretion with the planet, volatiles in the rock can be expected.
To the extent that possibly these moons repeatedly formed rings, then we can expect that the solar wind pushed protons into the ring materials.
Impacts of Mars may have been repeated, and so the little moons mopping up the results of many impacts. The notion that all impacts would lead to rock melt, must be false, as we have pieces of Mars that fell to our planet that were not melted.
As I have pointed out before, even a impact creating a melt liquid, may not shed all volatiles, as the two experiences the liquid would have would be 1) High pressure melting with massive inertia shifts. 2) Microgravity and cooling.
1) Too much pressure to shed the volatiles in their entirety.
2) No gravity process to separate bubbles of gas from liquid rock. Convection is inhibited in microgravity. Convection separations take an amount of time to complete, and as far as I can see the only time they might be possible is during the assent from impact, which is likely a very brief time.

And now about the moons as they appear to have been in their latest manifestation? Well, they seem to be rubble piles at least in part, actually more fluffy than typical rubble pile asteroids. I think that this could in part be due to tidal forces, but some think it is the presence of Ice. Ice is rather optimistic in my opinion, so I am not counting on it. I do consider hydrated minerals and a Adsorption process to retain volatiles to these moons.

It is thought that the sun may add materials to these moons by proton impacts, and micrometeor impactors. Seems reasonable to me.
But also the porosity of the moons may allow Hydrogen and other gasses such as Helium to get inside the void spaces of these moons, if they are indeed somewhat void of matter.

So, now lets look at this again: https://phys.org/news/2022-04-earth-atm … lunar.html
Quote:

Earth's atmosphere may be source of some lunar water
by Rod Boyce, University of Alaska Fairbanks

So, the religion of Mars has a dogma that most of the Martian atmosphere and water has been lost to space. So, maybe some of that can go into the Martian moons as they appear to be quite spongy. The solar wind having pulled atmosphere off from Mars, in some orientations may push the air to and into the spongy moons. Included may be Hydrogen and Hydrogen bearing molecules. Also to include may be Carbon bearing molecules and maybe a bit of Nitrogen.

I am willing to be conservative and suppose that even ice of water is hard to retain in these moons, but nevertheless lets check it out.

However, I think that it is very likely that adsorption and absorption may be at work internally for these moons, and that indeed they may also have a very feeble atmosphere internal to them. Even just a little atmospheric retention inside these moons may alter the ability to retain materials added from the solar wind and the atmosphere of Mars.

It has been suggested to put a colony into the moon Deimos. It seems attractive to me. However how you do it is also of interest to me.

You want access to the materials, but you also want access to energy. These sort of are against each other, if you tunnel into such a moon.

But you need protection from the space environment for your humans and even many machines.

This again, a very simple drawing:

This in part could be constructed in the Earth/Moon subsystem and flown to Mars, primarily using the solar wind and perhaps ballistic capture.

It was easiest not to fuss about details, as those can be added with discovery.

The green would originally be heavy built with metals, and plastics which will afford a well-protected living space for a small collection of humans. These should mostly be of materials that can be cycled through a 3D printing process to make machines, once you have access to a moon. The game would be to build your machines and deploy them into your pink minimum life support bubble. While this then reduces your radiation protection you may take materials from the moon(s), and process it for whatever, and turn the tailings/slag into replacement radiation protection materials. The crew for this could be as little as 3 people??? And maybe some tesla bots as well, so perhaps the green bubble would be rather small to accommodate a small crew in the beginning. You might give them the periodic option of 1 g in parts of the green area.

These machines might still use a solar wind propulsion to visit each moon to obtain materials, and also might periodically to low Martian orbit to communicate materials with and from Mars. It may be possible to land these on the moons but more likely they would have a tether connection to them at times.

OK, here is an alternative:

So, of course I have not shown a secondary mirror, or other things. The sun facing surface might do sun facing things, and the face leeward to the sun may be of a nature of radiators. I guess for radiation shielding you have the two gondolas (Until you build more), and you may place provisional and temporary radiation shielding elsewhere as may be useful, in the pink zone.

As a minimum provision of life support the pink zone may keep people and objects from floating away. It may moderate temperature swings. It may protect from impactors to some degree. It may have power and other life support sustems in it for space suited humans as it begins. It may be upgraded in life-support and productive machinery over time.

I think that dealing with orbital Mars will be very useful for ground operations and for future terraforming operations over time.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-04-30 12:39:52)

Void · 2022-04-29 11:38:26

This is a rather optimistic article, some members may not think it likely: https://solarsystem.nasa.gov/moons/mars-moons/in-depth/

Quote:

To someone standing on the Mars-facing side of Phobos, Mars would take up a large part of the sky. And people may one day do just that. Scientists have discussed the possibility of using one of the Martian moons as a base from which astronauts could observe the Red Planet and launch robots to its surface, while shielded by miles of rock from cosmic rays and solar radiation for nearly two-thirds of every orbit.
Like Earth's Moon, Phobos and Deimos always present the same face to their planet. Both are lumpy, heavily-cratered and covered in dust and loose rocks. They are among the darker objects in the solar system. The moons appear to be made of carbon-rich rock mixed with ice and may be captured asteroids.
Mars moon Deimos
This color-enhanced view of Deimos, the smaller of the two moons of Mars, was taken by the High Resolution Imaging Science Experiment (HiRISE) camera on NASA's Mars Reconnaissance Orbiter. Deimos is about 7.5 miles in diameter. Image Credit: NASA/JPL-Caltech/University of Arizona
Phobos has only 1/1,000th as much gravitational pull as Earth. A 150-pound (68 kilogram) person would weigh two ounces (68 grams) there. Yet NASA's Mars Global Surveyor has shown evidence of landslides, and of boulders and dust that fell back down to the surface after being blasted off the moon by meteorites.
How Mars Moons Got Their Names
Hall named the moons for the mythological sons of Ares, the Greek counterpart of the Roman god, Mars. Phobos means fear and Deimos means dread. Fitting names for the sons of a war god

If no Carbon or Ice, then Mars is nearby with Hydrogen, Carbon, and Nitrogen.

Here again is a simple drawing:

Basically, agriculture and industry, are neither steady loads to a power grid. Industrial equipment can be off and on. Agriculture will have some tolerance for brightness of "Day". Sort of complementary loads.

The argument for "Mars Direct", is in part that you want to get the humans down to the surface of Mars ASAP, as that is where the protection and resources would be.

Gerald K. O'Neil's work mostly involved sunlight through windows, as that was really the only sensible option at that time.

But as it happens, even here on Earth we are moving towards LED farming, so for this device that would also be the deal.

Radiation in orbit is felt to be a very big problem, including in orbit of Mars. But this device supposes very good shielding, in many cases with ponds of water. I show a continuous shell of water, but that can be divided into "Cells" like a beehive.

1 g is not prohibited, but really for this I am more thinking minimum gravity. That is not 1 g, not microgravity. Rather whatever works in general particularly for industrial processes.

It should be possible to cycle water through industrial processes to reject heat, and then out to some kind of power generation unit, or at least radiators.

This then could be included into assemblies in orbit, such as drawn in recently previous posts.

To make use of Earth Virtual Labor on the Moon, the shell(s) could be made of Lunar raw materials, and the then shells transported to Mars riding on the solar wind, possibly using Ballistic Capture. Then upon arrival filled with what else is needed.

All this might be suitable to also produce and maintain mirrors for Mars, and of course for Earth and the Moon as well.

It is obvious that if mirrors in Martian orbit, can add more sunlight, then this would assist in terraforming, and also would produce more energy on the ground. For the Mariner Rift Valley, this could both give nighttime energy, but also ward off night time frosts, presuming that that location can ever otherwise support vascular plants.

So, rather a good move in my opinion.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-04-29 11:55:39)

tahanson43206 · 2022-04-29 17:25:57

For Void ...

This post is offered to invite you to assist with another topic.

Ordinarily, (I believe) you would not see other topics, for a variety of reasons.

http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 88#p194188

I am asking for your creative thinking to help with the problem posed in the topic.

Ma Nature shows how to transport billions of tons of fresh water from oceans to land.

Humans have (so far) failed to achieve anything beyond the most paltry emulation of Ma Nature's example.

I am opening this topic to your creative thinking, in hopes there may be a way to move fresh water (molecules floating in air) to where they are needed (as considered by humans). Ma Nature currently sends all those molecules wherever she pleases, without regard to what humans might prefer.

Please excuse this intrusion on the flow of your thinking here.

(th)

Void · 2022-04-29 18:28:53

The intrusion is fine. I have studied your materials and will do so more on other days as well.

A pipe, water vapor dissolved in a gas, the gas delivered from A to B, the gas perhaps Hydrogen.

I would suggest that if such an effort were made, we should also consider a variation for use on other worlds.

You have specified a graphene pipeline. I am not sure I understand the nature of such a thing. But I will sleep on this stuff.

Done.

Void · 2022-04-29 19:02:57

In review of recent posts, the optimum situation for us would be for our Moon Luna to have up to a similar amount of water as Lake Huron here on Earth. Also, if the moons of Mars had ice in them that would be helpful.

However, a lesser resource base would likely work out OK. If the Moon had 1/10 th the water, then more conservation of the resource would be prudent. If the moons of Mars do not have ice, still they may have molecules of useful substances, and Mars itself can give what is lacking.

I have tended to be conservative about what could be done to terraform Mars, and still think we do not want a "Blue Mars", but I anticipate that an active production of orbital assistive hardware could greatly reduce the time required to beneficiate the planet.

I think that a "Lunar Maker", process that would create largely "Dry" structures to ship to the orbits of Mars and elsewhere, will be very valuable in those locations where they are made "Wet". The "Lunar Maker" could be a bit like a car factory, where these things would be shipped out on a regular basis. There is a whole solar system to ship them to.

The notion of humans stranded on the surface of Mars seems silly to me, as it is our intention to be able to have humans go to orbital facilities in our Earth/Moon sub region.

If a calculation were done of how much atmosphere you could generate from Martian moons, I think it would be very large. A thing about a thicker atmosphere with some greenhouse gasses, is that it should warm the poles more than the equator. This may reduce the ability for the planet to have global and long-lasting dust storms, as I feel the dust storms must be driven by a build-up of differential temperatures.

Really, what if all the materials of the moons of Mars was converted to machines, habitats, and atmosphere for Mars.

Of course in that situation, a global protective magnetic field is to be desired.

In such a world, how much would a ticket be to go Mars Surface<>Mars Orbit? Maybe not so much.

Likely tethers might be used to assist that process.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-04-29 19:12:56)

tahanson43206 · 2022-04-29 19:53:05

For Void re #185

Thanks for allowing this off-topic digression. With any luck, you might be able to weave whatever comes from this into one of your larger topics!

A suggestion of Graphene was just to try to provide a starting point for thought.

What I'm hoping will come from the new topic is an understanding of how humans might be able to guide moisture laden gases from one place to another.

As things stand, Ma Nature puts moisture laden water wherever She pleases, completely without regard to what humans might prefer.

There is even a song about this.

I am interested in the specific problem of delivering fresh water (in the form of vapor) from off shore to an on shore destination where a customer will pay for it.

At present, in all of human history (that i know about, which is little) no human has ever achieved this.

Accordingly, the problem is well suited for the galaxy spanning imagination of Void.

If you arrive at a solution, and then keep it to yourself, that would be quite fitting.

On the other hand, if you should decide to stimulate others to try to imagine possibilities, that would be (or could be) fun.

(th)

Void · 2022-04-29 20:53:04

OK, so I will divert a bit down to the surface of Mars, but not abandon the orbits.

Tunnels could transfer steam.

For instance, a Hyperloop Tunnel, could have a thin vapor of steam in it. I believe that Elon Musk indicated that a form of Hyperloop could operate on the surface of Mars, which I believe indicates a pressure of ~5.5 millibar.

So, you pull the air from your tunnel and fill it with steam. As long as your tunnel is warmer than the freezing point of water, the steam can flow, and will not condense into ice or liquid water.

And you might use it for a Hyperloop as well.

Where an ice body might be where you might get bulk ice, in some cases you might want to have some activity where the ice is not existing in quantity. So a tunnel perhaps.

Alternately you could have tunnels of vapor going from ice bodies, and tunnels of Hydrogen going to the ice body. I suppose some Hydrogen might leak out into the regolith that the tunnel went through.

But this might be how you transmit power to the poles especially during the winters.

Hydrogen pumped into bodies of water, along with Martian air would promote chemosynthesis and as a byproduct heat. Of course you might also use the Hydrogen for other purposes.

The nice thing about a water vapor filled Hyperloop tunnels, is that keeping the pressures down, no liquid pooling would occur, which then gives you more liberty as to how the tunnels tilt. You can flow the water vapor uphill at that pressure, as no condensates. As I said before the avoidance of ice would be temperature related only, I think.

Should you wish to you could superheat your thin water vapor or Hydrogen atmosphere and so turn the tunnels into a thermal reservoir.
Refrigeration then may be needed for any vehicles traveling the tunnel(s).

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-04-29 20:57:51)

tahanson43206 · 2022-04-30 05:15:57

For Void re #188

Calliban often mentions the need for cooling as he thinks about various nuclear fission reactors he might build if he were given the resources on Mars.

Your description of steam filled tunnels seems to me to catch the spirit of the concerns of Calliban, by offering a way to pull thermal energy from a hard working reactor, and to deliver a useful result.

The thermal energy of the steam will (of course) transfer to the walls of the tunnel, so the material around the tunnel will become warm as well. If comfy cabins are tucked into the walls of the tunnel, then all the better.

It will take the attention of an engineer with the appropriate training, education and experience to work out the practicality of this idea.

There may be concerns about radioactive materials leaking into the steam, but I ** hope ** ways can be found to keep the radioactive materials separated from the steam generation subsystem.

Radiation detectors should be as popular on Mars as fire detectors are on Earth.

(th)

Void · 2022-04-30 05:56:23

I guess we may each have our own vision. I did this posting to sort of "Get a feel", for approximately the objectives you seemed to have indicated as possible purpose.

Nuclear could be involved, however, if you have an extensive steam reservoir which involves storage of vacuum, or perhaps pressure, and might also be storage into the rock of thermal energy, and it is perhaps also a passage for goods or even humans, then it may be very well suited to work with intermittent energy sources such as solar.

I myself am dubious about the relative value of the system, except that it is valuable to have considered it, as it may eventually be augmented with further invention/discovery, and so perhaps become a useful preference.

The entire notion of moving water from one place to another, connects to complex notions of purpose. In the USA, if your water is too expensive, then you may consider moving to another state or location. It may be silly to encourage people to more populate a dry place than to more populate a cooler wetter place. The answer to that balance may be to find a method of energy for the cooler wet place.

Having said that, I find it very entertaining to consider how to beneficiate locations like the Great Basin, or on Mars a particular location.

We have an ever-changing collection of technologies and motivations. An alternate method to move water is to play with Albedo.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albedo

Historically it has been considered to darken the polar ice caps of Mars, in order to assist a terraforming process.

An alternative is to make more reflective of light the surface of a warmer area. I have previously suggested this for the Hellas Depression. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hellas_Planitia

Just now the Mariner Rift Valley looks like the best location to seek to establish an early human presence, but that requires further investigation of the "Ground Truth".

Hellas however could also lend itself to a major terraform effort, in my opinion by using Albedo.

To "Ice Ball" Hellas would be yet another gigantic terraform project. At this moment perhaps seeming absurd. However, if it is considered the ultimate level of ability that robots are likely to have then a labor force to do it could be made to exist.

Last edited by Void (2022-04-30 06:17:09)

tahanson43206 · 2022-04-30 06:16:22

For Void re #190

It is good to see your continuing development of a great variety of ideas for possible future developments.

I'd like to point out that people move to places that are attractive to them, when they have the choice.

In the United States, if you don't mind my pointing this out, all desirable land is taken. The option of moving to a wet place still exists, with the proviso that there is an opportunity at that location.

Folks who prefer a drier place to live must (of course) plan to import water to live comfortably.

That will be as true on Mars as it is now on Earth.

In the case of your vision of a tunnel filled with steam, I found inspiration to imagine a habitat build along the flank of Mount Olympus.

For ease of construction, it is difficult for me to imagine anything (on Mars) much more convenient...

The strong machines imagined by kbd512 in another topic could excavate a trench on the side of Mount Olympus, so that a complete city could be built up on the slope, fed by live steam from a hefty nuclear reactor at the base.

As I thought about this, it occurred to me that not only would heat be delivered to the occupants of this metropolis, but fresh water would precipitate out as the steam contacts the walls of the tunnel, so that every home along the passage would have plenty of fresh potable water as a daily supply from the hefty reactor at the base of the tunnel.

The trench would then be bridged over and the excavated regolith piled on top, to provide the radiation protection the residents will need.

Windows could provide a view of the plains around Mount Olympus, while at the same time being shaded from radiation by the piled regolith overhead.

All in all, this concept, which arises from your vision of a steam filled tunnel, seems (to me at least) to have potential for an artist rendering, if we had an artist in the group who was so inspired.

(th)

Void · 2022-04-30 06:20:08

Quote:

In the United States, if you don't mind my pointing this out, all desirable land is taken. The option of moving to a wet place still exists, with the proviso that there is an opportunity at that location.

I would assert that that is not true at all. Relative to Europe or China, we have plenty of potential places for expansion. However as it would seem that populations are likely to drop on the planet, the need for it is likely to deminish.

--------

OK, it is wonderful that other members are struggling with ideas. Since you have taken the current path, I guess I will add some pondering.

OK, Olympus Mons, or the Rift Valley, big elevation changes.

You could expand steam of water into an up tunnel, by evaporating water at the base. We will not specify energy source. You could also then condense the steam at the top and let it run down through another tunnel. Hydro-electric. Also water delivered to the top of the volcano, in the case of Olympus Mons. The high elevations may facilitate mass drivers, and skyhook activities to move mass to orbit.

I am presuming the likelihood that an aquifer could be tapped at the base of the volcano for the source of water.

So, I will then suppose that you boil with water with your heat source, and drive the steam though a turbine, and then into the upcomer tunnel. Then you condense at the top, perhaps even again driving some sort of heat engine. Then you drop the water down a tube, and generate even more energy. All the while you have tubes that have some form of water in them.

------

But could we use CO2, and/or Nitrogen, Argon?

Where I might want to skyhook Nitrogen and Argon and a little CO2 to orbit, could I force condense CO2 at the top of the mountain, and drop that liquid CO2 down for a sort of power source? The tube for this would be higher pressure to be sure, to maintain the CO2 as a liquid.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liquid_carbon_dioxide

The low pressure at the top of the mountain then requires extra energy to compress the CO2 to liquify it. However it is likely very cold up there, so that it assistive. A somewhat hard to see item is the fact that the CO2 is already at a high elevation. That is an energy source.

Each molecule is in a sub-orbital path, particularly if you get above a pressure which supports viscous flow. I don't think we would be that high. But at some time the CO2 evaporated off of the polar ice caps and was elevated to this height by atmospheric expansion.

If it were steel marbles you would understand that you could roll them down the mountain to collect energy.

Now you would have a cold and heavy fluid flowing down the mountain in a tunnel. Obviously this would allow for turbines to generate energy. But the rock of the tunnel may be warm, so you might exploit geothermal energy. You might also have a south facing side of the mountain so maybe you had added heat, by dumping solar heat into the flowing fluid. So you might flash some of the CO2 off to utilize that waste heat. But if the CO2 liquid makes it all the way down, then you may put it into a heat source and boil it and turn a turbine.

Alternately you may flash the CO2 off of a cliff, and wait for the result to condense water out of the air.

However, all of this is very large scale, and to be done much later in human development than the current now.

But it is rather cool to consider getting energy from a falling atmosphere.

I sort of wish to return to orbital activities in this thread. It does help that Mass Drivers, and Skyhooks were in the discussion.

I will be a bit rare today for a further presence here. Maybe later tonight.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-04-30 06:43:05)

Void · 2022-04-30 07:09:50

So, lets sub-divide Mars.
1) Mars surface and undergrounds.
2) Mars Hill Sphere excluding the contents of #1.

I believe I have shown that it might be possible to move materials from our Moon to #2.
Also, if desired it may be possible to move NEO materials to #2.
#2 already includes Phobos and Deimos.

For "Effort Magnitude", #2 is more accessible than #1, with the exception of Mars Direct Earth/Moon>Mars.
Presuming the means of travel, it is easier to travel #2>Earth/Moon than #1>Earth/Moon.

While the standard "Mars Direct", has its advantage of Aero burn to surface, I may argue that it can be considered to do a "Mars Direct to Orbit", also using an Aero Burn.

So, in my opinion, there are two versions of Mars, the real schematic is Earth/Moon<>#2<>#1.

I have indicated that #2 already has materials in it, and can receive more materials from sunward sources, it also can receive mass from #1, and once in orbit, that mass can be reused fairly endlessly.

So I want to make the point that #2 is nearer to us per effort required, than is #1.

And while #1 has a .38 g basement, and possibly might allow some centrifuge additional gravity in small volumes, #2 allows Microgravity up to and beyond 1 g.

Further #1 has global dust storms, and #2 does not.

A skyhook system would allow scooping #1 atmospheric materials up to #2, and of course mass drivers would assist in lifting solid materials from #1 to #2.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-04-30 07:20:09)

Void · 2022-04-30 12:33:28

I changed my schedule a bit, so aren't we all fortunate, I can post again.

I think most Mars concepts are partially outdated. They were created with the notion of a "Bone-Dry Moon", and the feeble pace that our space program could go for the last 50 years.

Based on my just prior post, I am going to think of the terms 1) Far Mars, and 2) Near Mars.

Near Mars does not include Mars itself but includes all objects that do or might orbit Mars.

There have been notions of going to the moons of Mars first, but I think the problem with that is infrastructure needed to usefully access the raw materials they may represent, a lack of certainty of what they might have for raw materials, and the protection of humans while in orbit of Mars.

I think that this can be addressed now and that the surface endeavors can also be more greatly facilitated by working with Near Mars.

Moon Seeds. This might be sort of it: This again, a very simple drawing:

The value of a seed or egg is that a birth can happen even if the parents have gone away. This is very true for seeds, somewhat true for eggs.

Let's hope that we can avoid cultural attempts to gain sexual properties by some individuals and discuss reproduction. In sending people to Near and Far Mars in fact we intend to reproduce. More than to reproduce individuals but also societies.

Lets have a look at Seeds: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seed
Quote:

A seed is an embryonic plant enclosed in a protective outer covering. The formation of the seed is part of the process of reproduction in seed plants, the spermatophytes, including the gymnosperm and angiosperm plants.
Seeds are the product of the ripened ovule, after fertilization by pollen and some growth within the mother plant. The embryo develops from the zygote, and the seed coat from the integuments of the ovule.

They did not mention the Yoke, which I presume exists by some other name.

So, in this I sort of suggest sending a seed to the Near Mars, by way of the solar wind, and that seed would be manufactured largely from Moon materials. Now lets not get too silly about what I say. This would not be inhabited by human crew on it's travel.

It's yoke would be the necessary life support for a nominal 3 person crew in the orbit of Mars. Nominal means nominated, suggested, a spit-ball number.

In this case, I guess I sort of think that green zone is the yoke area, would have heavy protection from radiation and would have what else would be needed to initiate human habitation of the device.

So, how much time does this take to get to the Near Mars location? Well maybe 2-10 years? No crew, so don't worry about immediate life support or radiation protection.

A special version of Starship brings a nominal 3 crew to the "Moon Seed", at an appropriate time. Because you have a centrifuge in orbit, the crew will not have to have synthetic gravity on the trip from Earth/Moon>Near Mars. The Starship uses aero capture and connects with the seed. Technically the "Moon Seed is now fertilized as it will now engage with organic highly animated life, (The crew).

Moving in, the crew would bring with them such more materials as the Starship might have on board, such as water/recycled stuff.

Spin-Up and re-habilitation would be next. As it could be done slowly, it might go in small fractions of 1 g until they are suitably well.

Early retrieval of materials from one of the moons could involve robots with electromagnets, or electrostatic attractor methods.

It can be remembered that this "Moon Seed" is supposed to have a magnetic bubble drive, so, I guess there is even a danger that if it gets close to a moon, it might be attracted, and dust might levitate to it. That might be interesting.

So, spin mode has to be reconciled with collection modes. I will leave that as a problem to better solve, for now. A turntable, and legs with harpoons to attach to the moon?

Anyway, first acquisition of materials may be simply regolith put into bags and scientific evaluations of the materials.

This would free up materials of the "Yoke", to be fed into 3D printers to make machines out of metals and plastics. The bags of dirt would replace the radiation protection that the "Yoke" had provided.

Different parts of the moons have different radiation environments. The side facing Mars for Phobos gets secondary radiation from Mars, where radiation striking Mars, emits secondary radiation to it.

Of course, the moons may also block radiations of all kinds from some directions.

Having created the machines, then processing of materials might be done, to produce??? What??? What do you want, what can you have???

I have not so mentioned greenhouses, but they would need to occur at some point, but it is only 3 nominal crew, and some ~Tesla Bots.

And I guess you build up your machinery. There could be more "Moon Seeds" sent, and there is not much limit to how much machinery. If you could have centrifuges on the surface of Mars, you could build mostly micro-gravity or low gravity facilities and have some 1 g facilities. And of course as you expanded you would acquire more crew/settlers.

I have not specified how this works with Far Mars, but I speculate that you work on both and as fast as they can can be developed that is how much you do with each. And they may work with each other.

Eventually the Near Mars effort will accept raw materials or resources from Far Mars, and may also send reflected sunlight down to Far Mars, as much as is possible/desired.

Getting tired, good enough for now.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-04-30 13:23:30)

Void · 2022-05-01 06:57:34

This showed up this morning:
Query: "SpaceX starship builds VERA station in 6 months, "Gateway Spaceport LLC" "

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s-XlWP4Q4Ds

Like many of you, (I presume), these concepts do not fully align with my own visions of "What Can/What If?", but very good stuff. This is all a bit like small children making art projects. It shows promise of possibility, and that is certainly what we want to have.

If I understand, what they are proposing is to make ring shaped robots, that can build pressurized, (If desired), torus structures. It seems like a good proposal to me.

If I understand, they also intend to fabricate sup-parts, (Panels), from bulk materials, nominally brought to orbit by Starship or similar. This makes sense as you no longer have as much of an issue of fairing volumes on the rockets.

Another shift, is that for evacuation, they intend to have an inner hub and an outer hub, connected by four elevator shaft containing "Struts"?'
And they feel that they can construct these things so fast that so many could be built that evacuation to another could also be done.

So, I think that their notions are indeed getting better, and they were already interesting.

Of course I am going to be interested in how and when it might be possible to begin to include materials from the Moon into this process.

And of course I want stuff like this to end up around "Near Mars".

Where they specify synthetic gravity machines, in my opinion, these do not have to be, they could also be microgravity.

Where they specify a human compatible pressurization, they do not have to be pressurized, in full, for instance they might have an interior that suits certain manufacture processes, and there could be some small habitats for humans included. Such structures can be minimal to the level of needs for a process.

For instance if you have a shell like that and it is thin, you can modify the thermal conditions inside. It may protect people and machines from impactors, to a degree. You may control what gas molecules and dust may be inside. It may prevent people and objects from floating away and becoming space junk.

Such an environment may facilitate industrial processes of kinds we do not yet know.

Of course I am messing with the bible, but I see the prospect of "Wheels within Wheels". , or rather torus within torus.

Since I blundered into this, I will add this, but remember not everything on the internet is truth. I do not know if this translation is correct:
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?s … ersion=MSG

Even if you are not religious, (Or so claim), it does not hurt for you to know something of what is written in the books that somewhat regulate major societies on our planet.

The machine I am thinking of is not so much like the one in that description, but just a torus with perpendicularly oriented tori emplaced in it. So, quite massive, for me fun the visualize. Certainly a thing for much later, if at all.

OK, sort of like this:

And such large rings, (Pink), could be joined to others to make a vast array. Of course the character of the environment of the Pink rings could be as desired within constraints of ability.

To be connected together the pink sections may not have synthetic gravity, but may or may not be pressurize to a degree as suitable.

Just some fun for the kindergarteners.

Done

Last edited by Void (2022-05-03 10:59:59)

Void · 2022-05-01 08:13:58

So, in the previous post a "Pink Toroidal Stator", hosts nested blue sub-Torus.

Likely the blue torus must have LED lighting. I don't like windows so much, but the pink stator could have windows.

However, to combine windows and some synthetic gravity then perhaps this. (I have presented materials like this before):

This could be attached to the pink stator structure and could have a rotor (Green) presented to a window that lets sunlight in. I have not yet provided for radiation concerns, but that can be added in various ways.

This would likely be low g, as otherwise you have to provide for a scheme of vacuum chamber to house the rotor, (In part), and seals to make it all work.

I would nominate the gravity of Ceres, for now, and so, no such vacuum chamber methods may be required.

And so you could go to such a room like this and get filtered sun output in a low g environment. Low g sufficient to provide a sense of up and down, and to make waste fall to the "Ground", and not try to enter your nose.

So, not that dreary.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-05-03 11:02:00)

Void · 2022-05-01 08:22:45

Jeff Bezos has suggested that to colonize Mars try camping for a long period of time on top of Mt. Everest. Sort of valid, but also not.,

The Finns have suggested artificial habitats for Ceres: https://earngurus.com/scientist-propose … ccupation/
Picture Quote: https://img.ibxk.com.br/2021/01/20/2019 … .jpg?w=704

Good stuff.

But a suggest that a "Common Stator" be used to connect most items, so that perhaps you could go to the various centrifuge devices without a spacesuit in most cases. Most of it would have acceptable life support.

Now "Near Mars" is closer to us than Mars, and it contains mass in low g collection. So this could be even better than Ceres.

Where "Far Mars" may be like Mt. Everest and Antarctica to some degree, with this technology and solar concentrating mirrors, "Near Mars" is by far a better place to settle than Ceres, CIS Lunar Space, or "Far Mars". With the exception that CIS Lunar space has the resource of virtual labor from Earth.

That is my current opinion.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-05-01 08:29:23)

Void · 2022-05-01 20:31:34

PEROIDIC GRAVITATION SIMULATION

Using the color code of posts #195 and #196, three colors.

-Blue, Higher gravity.
-Pink, Microgravity?
-Green Low Gravity.

We have previously to my knowledge, only considered long periods in one gravity field strength over a human day cycle.
(Mostly) We have considered centrifuges for humans on Mars or the Moon, on occasion, and so there you might pass from one gravity field to another during a day cycle.

On the Earth, we sort of simulate the variable stimulation from our 1 g gravity field. If we rest in bed at night, that somewhat simulates microgravity, sort of. So we already have periodic stress. But the simulation does not include blood pooling in the lower upper body, or eye damage. It does possibly simulate bone loss and muscle loss?

So, for a Multi-Torus orbital habitat situation, what might life be like, and what might the best guesses on short and long term health be?

Well, I am guessing that you could sleep anywhere???

But you would exercise daily in a blue torus, and likely spend a certain number of hours in one.

You might go to a Low Gravity section such as the Green, to be in a garden, or maybe that gravity simulation might be useful for certain industrial processes.

So, a question is, how many hours on average would it be healthy for a human to be in each color zone?

On Earth, if people are confined to bed for 16 hours a day, and yet have 8 hours to be on their feet and to visit a gym, can they be reasonably healthy?

So, probably the high and low gravitation will not induce motion sickness, but microgravity might. Certain people might learn how to cope with it, or might take drugs to do that, to be in the pink sections off and on.

A question is, "Could something like Neuralink be developed for the inner ear, to allow people to cope with various gravity simulations?". https://neuralink.com/

A further problem of the pink zones would be plumbing. Perhaps small low g devices could allow you to get a drink of water, use the toilet, and wash hands. Yes there are zero g toilets, but they are probably less desirable, if you are not worried about the mass of your plumbing. And I am presuming pink zones with life support such as air pressure and suitable to breath air.

So, how do you travel about in the pink zones? Big volumes with microgravity.

Various things come to mind. It could be a really cool life. Would you have forests in the microgravity pink zones?
Wood is good.

And so then if you have a chain of pink torus, how many???? Not much for limits I suspect.

Are the pink zones fully radiation protected, or do you Jetson about in a water jacketed propeller driven vehicle?

A good imaginary world(s) I must say.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-05-01 21:00:45)

Void · 2022-05-02 06:50:08

So, the way I recall things most opinions have it that "Far Mars", or the Moon, or Asteroids are the future. A small minority has mentioned Martian Moons. Just mentioning Martian moons, is not quite the same as to say "Near Mars".

I have said before "Near Mars" currently includes Phobos and Deimos, but can have materials moved to it using the solar wind from the Earth/Moon, and from NEO objects. Further, "Near Mars", can receive materials from "Far Mars".

So, I see it as the "Golden Place" in the solar system, at least with current and projected technologies.

But to be justified, a method to get materials off of "Far Mars", (Mars itself), needs to exist. Further justification would be the potential to get materials from NEO's to "Near Mars". That would be facilitated by the ability to project materials outward in the solar system from the Earth/Moon subsystem.

While Earth can supply some things, for bulk materials of course the Moon is the best choice.

I am very much in favor of developing the Moons surface and it's interior. And the same for Mars as well. But enormous potential awaits for orbital structures, and potentially a very good life stile I think.

So we are going to want to get lots of mass from our Moon to orbit(s).

Mass driver methods have been championed by some here, and also rocket methods. These are all good.

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=Is … M%3DHDRSC3

I am most interested in them for the Moon, but Mars and Earth are of interest as well.

Isaac Arthur gives a video on skyhooks. I actually find skyhooks hard to trust, but still I guess they can be tried, and then see what they can do in reality.

For the Moon and possibly Mars, the solar wind could be used to replace momentum to sky hooks lifting mass from the Moon or Mars. A magnetic bubble sail to do that.

Done for now

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-05-02 07:13:45)

Void · 2022-05-02 07:28:51

I have some items of interest about using magnetic bubbles in space.

They may be convenient to drift "Downstream", but some have types that could go against or tack against the solar wind and the Earth's magnetosphere. Dr. Zubrin, I think has invented such a thing.

To orbit the Moon or Mars with one, where no global magnetic field has been established, the solar wind could accelerate your bubble or decelerate it depending on placement in orbit, and magnitude of the magnetic field.

Can you "Litho-drag" on a worlds Lithosphere from orbit? That is, if there are natural and also reactive magnetic features in the rocks, can you drag the edge of your magnetic field into the crust of the Moon and Mars, and so circularize your orbit?

I am a fan of a notion of putting multi-faceted magnetic fields on the Moon, so that you can both dreg and repel the Moon itself as propulsion mass. This then could also be assistive in maintaining the inertia of Skyhooks.

OK, Done

Not really. I have been wondering about sending a magnetic bubble spacecraft to "Impact" the Earth's magnetic field.

Will it react and change the speed of the spacecraft?

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-05-03 11:08:36)

New Mars Forums

Announcement

#176 2022-04-25 20:40:53

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

#177 2022-04-26 08:42:20

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

#178 2022-04-27 11:10:08

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

#179 2022-04-28 08:09:21

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

#180 2022-04-28 08:50:40

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

#181 2022-04-28 11:47:16

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

#182 2022-04-29 07:15:02

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

#183 2022-04-29 11:38:26

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

#184 2022-04-29 17:25:57

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

#185 2022-04-29 18:28:53

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

#186 2022-04-29 19:02:57

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

#187 2022-04-29 19:53:05

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

#188 2022-04-29 20:53:04

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

#189 2022-04-30 05:15:57

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

#190 2022-04-30 05:56:23

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

#191 2022-04-30 06:16:22

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

#192 2022-04-30 06:20:08

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

#193 2022-04-30 07:09:50

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

#194 2022-04-30 12:33:28

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

#195 2022-05-01 06:57:34

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

#196 2022-05-01 08:13:58

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

#197 2022-05-01 08:22:45

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

#198 2022-05-01 20:31:34

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

#199 2022-05-02 06:50:08

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

#200 2022-05-02 07:28:51

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

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