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#1726 2024-05-28 19:55:34

Void
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Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 7,354

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

Those seem to be good concepts to add to it.

I guess if we wanted to we could call them "Diamond Rings".  As they have the form of a diamond but are a ring around a small world.

It seems possible to me from what you have previously said about steel elevator cables, Ceres may be a probability, but perhaps at the upper limits of that possibility.

Ceres is of great interest, but I also look at some other the somewhat lesser asteroids: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_e … _asteroids

10 Hygea is smaller, and a bit further out, but has an inclination of 5.1, compared to 10.6 for Ceres.

Ceres may be a good source of other organics, such as Nitrogen, but perhaps 10 Hygea could be a source of water ice?
But time will tell.  If the space elevator is possible with Ceres, then perhaps ice from Ceres then.

My interest in the stony terrestrial crossers, is that the use of solar propulsions could assist in delivered to orbit of other planets.

As for small moons we have Phobos and Deimos, but Jupiter has a lot of small moons, I believe.  Some may be in favorable locations in the radiation belts of Jupiter, such as Callisto, but of course I am interested in small moons: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moons_of_Jupiter

As for harvesting spin, it may also be possible to store spin.  Electric rockets of a Neumann Drive type, or Mass Drivers that expel excess Oxygen or magnetic dust.  But Photon Sails may induce spin as well, should they be able to pivot as needed to the photon stream.  And in a like manner, perhaps some sort of magnetic sail for the solar wind.

These are generally slow accumulations of inertia, but then as you have indicated a fling of a payload from a spin can then become linear and quite sudden in thrust.

Done. 

Last edited by Void (2024-05-28 20:14:07)


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#1727 2024-05-29 10:05:47

Void
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Posts: 7,354

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

While I have it in my mind to mine Mercury and the Moon, using rings eventually, it probably is good to seek more quickly attainable results than that.  This may be more in compliance with the thinking of Dr. Robert Zubrin, as I understand it.

He seems to be about Mars, with a faint nod to the Moon as its own thing, and yet he also then suggests that the asteroid belt can be a further project.

The "Diamond Ring" as I called it would have space elevator methods included with potential ring methods: https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 36#p223736
lmxGoIr.png

But I have also been interested in this, which would likely be for larger objects: https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 65#p223565
-My ring(s) has a centrifugal gutter matter catching method to it.
A representation of the basic concept is here: https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 26#p223526  Quote:

Post #1713 discusses such a device: https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 31#p223431
Quote;

This post from elsewhere was considered for Mercury, but I want to think of it for other worlds: https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 80#p223380
Quote:

l2mOXQT.png

The idea is to shoot fine materials from the surface of Mercury, to impact the cup-trough of the inner surface of the ring.

At first the surface will be abraded, but once you put a layer of dust or regolith or sintered tiles over it the metal would be protected.

Ceres, of course could be a target, or other smaller asteroids as well.  Mars may be a hard case, but maybe the mass driver notion could work from the mountaintops of Mars.

I would tolerate the tensile members of the "Diamond Ring" method for small worlds, and when productive or necessary.  But I don't particularly trust space elevators for all applications.

Ceres is actually rather large for an asteroid, so I am considering some that are smaller, and also some that are more rocky or stony in nature.  We have Vesta, Juno, and some others.

Here is the list of exceptional asteroids, again: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_e … _asteroids

Vesta: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/4_Vesta
Quote:

Regolith
Vesta's surface is covered by regolith distinct from that found on the Moon or asteroids such as Itokawa. This is because space weathering acts differently. Vesta's surface shows no significant trace of nanophase iron because the impact speeds on Vesta are too low to make rock melting and vaporization an appreciable process. Instead, regolith evolution is dominated by brecciation and subsequent mixing of bright and dark components.[99] The dark component is probably due to the infall of carbonaceous material, whereas the bright component is the original Vesta basaltic soil.[100]

  Thie coating of Carbonaceous materials is important, and it is likely that the solar wind has implanted water into the stony regolith, I expect.  This could be true for other stony/rocky asteroids in the main belt, I think.

Juno: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3_Juno

Eunomia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/15_Eunomia

Anyway we probably know the most about Vesta and Ceres of course.  So, just for fun I would imagine moving up from a Diamond Ring to a full ring with a centrifugal matter capture trough.

This should be sized down considerably from one for Mercury or the Moon, so, not quite so much made of "Impossibilium, but perhaps of a size which could be possible.

Such a ring might get spin from the Photon and Solar winds from the sun.  Matter projected to its trough, may be in an intercepting ballistic path, and so upon striking the trough surface, may be captured by inertia and friction, and may develop an equalization of path, by the consequences of such a set of collisions of a fine dust.  Not too far different from aerobraking.  The lining of the trough would be expected to abrade, so it would have to be maintained by replacement of abrasion surfaces periodically.  Catch pockets could also be incorporated into this scheme.

Even though I am interested in such a centrifugal catch mechanism, I expect that space elevators may have a place in all of this.

Being in the asteroid belts, volatiles could also be imported to stony/rocky asteroid types from Carbonaceous types.

The more substantial stony/rocky asteroids could eventually have a vast system of tunnels in them.  Vesta being volcanic in history, should have significant veins of some types of mineral ores.

So, at this time these ideas seem reasonable to me.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-05-29 10:46:04)


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#1728 2024-05-29 20:56:11

Void
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Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

I thought that this could be interesting: https://trek.nasa.gov/vesta/jpl/assets/ … facts.html

In the above you will find mention of Hydrogen, water, and Carbonaceous materials on the asteroid.

More such information is in this article: https://www.space.com/12097-vesta-aster … ystem.html
Quote:

NASA's Dawn spacecraft, which visited the asteroid in 2012, discovered that the rocky body had a surprising amount of hydrogen on its surface. It also found bright, reflective regions that may have been left over from its birth.

Quote:

Liquid water once flowed across the asteroid. Images captured by the Dawn spacecraft revealed curved gullies and fan-shaped deposits within eight different Vesta impact craters. All eight of the craters are thought to have formed within the last few hundred million years, fairly recent in the lifetime of the 4.5-billion-year-old asteroid.

"Nobody expected to find evidence of water on Vesta. The surface is very cold and there is no atmosphere, so any water on the surface evaporates," study lead author Jennifer Scully, a postgraduate researcher at UCLA, said in a NASA statement. "However, Vesta is proving to be a very interesting and complex planetary body."

Scully and her team thought the features were created by debris flows, as opposed to pure-water rivers or streams, sculpted the Vesta gullies. They proposed that meteorites bombarding the asteroid melted ice deposits beneath the surface, sending liquid water and small rocky particles flowing down the crater walls. Such activity suggests the presence of ice buried beneath the surface.

"If present today, the ice would be buried too deeply to be detected by any of Dawn's instruments," Scully said. "However, the craters with curved gullies are associated with pitted terrain, which has been independently suggested as evidence for loss of volatile gases from Vesta."

Ice could have been responsible for modifying Vesta's surface. In 2017, a study suggested that smooth patches of terrain on the asteroid frequently possessed high concentrations of hydrogen, which is often seen when solar radiation breaks down water molecules.

"We suggest that modifications of the surface by melting of buried ice could be responsible for smoothing those areas," Essam Heggy, a planetary scientist at the University of Southern California in Los Angeles, told Space.com. "Buried ice could have been brought to the surface after an impact, which caused heated ice to melt and travel up through the fractures to the surface."

Dawn also observed signs of hydrated minerals (minerals containing water molecules) on Vesta's surface, which could also hint at the presence of buried ice. The hydrated materials were associated with older terrains, and could have been delivered by impacts of material from farther out in the solar system.

A low-altitude map of Vesta revealed a rich geology. The steep slopes found on the asteroid, combined with its high gravity, paves the way for rocks to roll downward, exposing other material. Dawn revealed a variety of mineral, including some bright and dark materials that could relate to potential buried ice.

Vesta then has everything that Mars has apparently except not nearly as much Nitrogen or Argon, I expect.  Perhaps a bit of Nitrogen in the Carbonaceous materials.  But Ceres is expected to have some Nitrogen, so that problem may be OK.

So, I finally found some idea of gravity on Vesta at least at the equator: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surface_gravity
Quote:

Pallas    0.022 g (equator)
Vesta    0.025 g (equator)
Ceres    0.029 g

I will probably be doing this wrong, but if the deepest mine on Earth is going to be expanded to 4.27km, perhaps, perhaps, on Vesta it could be???  160km???  But Vesta being somewhat 525 km in size, the depth to the core would be 262.5 km???  But here is the thing, the further down you could dig, the lower the gravity.  So maybe able to get all the way into the core, and even though it?

I am not thinking that geothermal heat would be a problem as it may be on Earth.

But of course, 16 Psyche is thought to be a metal asteroid, sort of, so maybe no particular need to drill so deep on Vesta.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/16_Psyche

Vesta has a high rotational speed, which seems useful as per some comments from Calliban.

Anyway, we have 5 bodies that are considered terrestrial.  Mercury, Venus, Earth, Mars, and Vesta.  (Moon of Earth???)

So, I think that Vesta could be a good place to experiment with things like space elevators perhaps and rings.

It seems to me that while it was tunneled and mined, a vast structure of a Diamond Ring and then perhaps a Circular Ring could be built.

Movable sails could be positioned on those that could capture inertia to spin from the Photon and Solar winds.  And then that inertia could be used to toss payloads inward or outward in the solar system.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-05-29 21:40:52)


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#1729 2024-05-30 04:35:24

Void
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Posts: 7,354

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

There is a question about Oxygen.  It is generally plentiful, and could be used as a propellant, without a combustion process.  For instance, it could be tossed out of a Mass Driver, to generate spin.  I think that this could be a relatively good thing to do in some situations.  A most proper Mass Driver to do this might be massive, to get the highest possible speed in doing the toss of the Oxygen.  But for a linear ship this would be undesirable, as the "Dry Mass" of the ship would be very large.  But with a spin device, the power supply and the bulk of the Mass Driver simply become part of a "Flywheel" energy storage system.

This does not need to be considered to be a waste, the Oxygen tossed out would be carried away by the solar wind and perhaps the photon wind, and this Oxygen would eventually be incorporated into new worlds and new stars.

And here is the difference between the Oxygen of a Stony/Rocky world, and that of an Icy World.  In electrolysis of water, your remainder will be Hydrogen.  Hydrogen is not useless, it also can be a propellant, but in the case of Stony/Rocky materials, to the degree you extract Oxygen and then expel it to generate spin energy, then you may have a leftover of metals, glasses, and ceramics.  And so, this can be more rewarding.

Oxygen is very abundant.  The surface regolith of the moon is 40-45% Oxygen, and it seems likely that the materials below will also have considerable Oxygen in them.

From time to time, I have considered how could you move ices in a way so that you could access the core Stony/Rocky worlds, in the case of an object that is substantial in size and differentiated by historical heat?  One idea may be to create a secondary world, a binary of the core remainder of the original world.  Pluto/Charon is rather existing already.  For some ices, it may be possible to remove the water ice from Pluto, and bond it to Charon.  But this leaves the Nitrogen and Methane and CO, without a storage place.  So, I don't consider that problem solved.  And it really is not a problem that seems worth too much concern from me.  But Vesta, is not a world drowning under water and ice.  Its materials to a large extent could be subjected to Metalysis, to produce solids suitable to make structure at various temperatures.  And if using solar energy, it may be possible to expel much of the produced Oxygen to create spin.  And spin may be used to launch payloads.

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Last edited by Void (2024-05-30 04:54:28)


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#1730 2024-05-30 06:11:14

Void
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Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

Here is some interesting information about some various things:

Why Fusion Reactors are a Step-Stone Technology to a Dyson Swarm, John Michael Godier
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9mXTwSli8Pg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XY01ZgvslMo

In mining a world like Vesta, and building up structures above and around it, the distribution of gravity would change.  A intercept of more and more output of the sun would be possible.

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Last edited by Void (2024-05-30 06:14:41)


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#1731 2024-05-30 10:37:04

Void
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Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

I am going to segway to Ganymede as Isaac Arthur has a new video out on it: https://www.reddit.com/r/IsaacArthur/co … _ganymede/

I will request an extra measure of tolerance, as I am going to go in the direction of shell worlds for both Ganymede and Callisto.  Please consider this to be an exercise in imagination.  It could be possible someday, but of course there could be better things to do.  But I want to advance the idea of a traveling shell over Ganymede or Callisto.  One that could point one hemisphere at the sun continually.  If effect it would be a singular Heliostat bearing, where multiple concentrating mirrors would be attached to the sunward side.  We might consider such a thing for other worlds also.

This traveling shell, could have ice or water/ice on top of it.  And you could have multiple shells.  So, the shell method could provide various types of improvement of the surface environment of an icy world.

In a sense, a singular shell is like having a singular dome.  We already often hear talk of domes on worlds as a Para Terraforming notion.

A notion to propel the dome relative to the moon itself could involve propellers to push the air under the dome.  Electric motors, I presume.
The moon itself, the absorbing heat when under the sunward exposure may then emit heat when under the dark side.  This may be sufficient to prevent the condensation of atmosphere to the underside of the shell, it could be hoped.

How the shell is kept centered is some sort of a question.  I suppose lower atmosphere being denser than upper atmosphere this may emerge from the gravity of such a moon.

Should ice be heaped over the shell, it could be insulating and also radiation protective, and also pressurizing.

How it could be built would certainly be a puzzle.

That is as far as I have gone with it for now.

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Last edited by Void (2024-05-30 10:46:02)


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#1732 2024-05-30 21:59:47

Void
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Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

I guess I want to go a bit further with the shell notion, the heliostat shell notion.

I am not yet claiming that it is a good idea, just that it is an idea.

I wonder about a water shell.  That is a shell with a hardware made bottom, and then cells like the hexagons of a Honeycomb.  These then covered in ice and over that a hardware surface.

So, I suppose this then to contain an atmosphere, under this structure.

Somehow the first shell has to be made, maybe starting as a ring that rotates.  And then somehow the rest to be added sequentially.

It is an idea, but maybe I should consider alternate ways to achieve something as good or better.

The truth is many solar collectors might be placed in orbit of Jupiter and these could beam power to Ganymede and Callisto.

In that case perhaps a more practical shell can be considered.  We could in reality simply put bubbles in the ice and convey energy to them.

It does matter if you have an idea, that you think you like that you can look again, and see something perhaps better.

The jury is out on it.  I guess I am wandering.

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Last edited by Void (2024-05-30 22:08:48)


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#1733 2024-05-31 08:07:35

Void
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Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

I think that when the construction of megastructures, the KISS thing needs doing.  While it may be impressive to do something that nature does not do itself first it may be that it is not that good of an idea, and also human nature has to be considered.  At some point, a complex system could become vulnerable to terrorism/piracy/totalitarianism.  I am afraid that this seems likely for the shell I was thinking about.

An alternate view of the value of Callisto and Ganymede is that they are indeed worlds, but also are a collection of materials that may be used to build something that may from the start resist weakness to (terrorism/piracy/totalitarianism).

I think that building underground and also on the surface, and in orbit are all parts of such a possible plan.

From posts #1731, Quote:

I am going to segway to Ganymede as Isaac Arthur has a new video out on it: https://www.reddit.com/r/IsaacArthur/co … _ganymede/

  I recall that Isaac Arthur suggests that solar energy is not that wrong for these two moons and the orbits of Jupiter.  I tend to agree.

So, while you could and likely should capture solar energy on the two moons, if that is good then the Hill Sphere of Jupiter, offers a vast swath of light from our sun.  So, utilizing the materials of the moons of Jupiter then it makes sense to join those materials to the energy that the sun is beaming though the Hill Sphere of Jupiter.  Then to send significant energy to those moons by some sort of method, perhaps microwaves.

So, then perhaps rather than putting a shell around these moons, a notion to build shells without worlds within seems a possible pathway.

That could again be the "FlatBox" notion or perhaps spherical shells that could point their heliostat(s) at the sun.

As for the two moons, and other moons, those can supply materials for this.  And very large vaults could be dug under the surface to make habitat and also to provide the materials for orbits.

I think this makes the most out of Jupiter and its moons.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-05-31 08:19:54)


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#1734 2024-05-31 10:26:03

Void
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Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

So, a notion exists that Titan, Callisto, and Ganymede may be in part covered by "Sand" from comet impacts.

This article talks about it: https://universemagazine.com/en/are-the … r%20System.  Quote:

Are the dunes of Titan made of comet dust?

 

I think that it is very likely that for Titan, air braking and then impact would produce heat to part ices from "Sand" or dust particles in comet materials.  For Callisto and Ganymede impact would do the most to vaporize ice and leave behind the "Sand" or dust, but I suppose a large enough impact could create a very temporary atmosphere on occasion.

For Titan some have argued that cryovolcanic would cover the "Sand" or dust, and I suppose that process may exist.  But it seems that liquid Methane can dissolve water ice and organic matter.

https://www.jpl.nasa.gov/news/new-model … on-craters
Quote:

Most existing models that lay out the origin of Titan's lakes show liquid methane dissolving the moon's bedrock of ice and solid organic compounds, carving reservoirs that fill with the liquid. This may be the origin of a type of lake on Titan that has sharp boundaries.

If this is true, then Methane rain may be able to erode "Sand" and dust from the surface, and so, reduce the ice on it, and wind may then pick it up in the thick atmosphere of a low gravity world, and move it about.  Then the moving will also likely remove the ice as well.

So, this may indicate that Titan, Callisto, and Ganymede fall into a similar class as do Mars and I think Vesta.  Having a wide distribution of materials suitable to human technology.

And this then spins the story back to Vesta, I feel.  Whatever Vesta may not have in abundance, it might get from Ceres.  So, NASA's targets were very sensible.

So, a path could be Earth/Moon>Mars>Vesta>(Callisto, Ganymede, Titan). 

And somewhere along the line Mercury and Venus.

And then Vesta as a "Spin-Mill".  Being spun up by the expulsion of materials like Oxygen, and also by the Photon and Solar winds.

Vesta already has a high spin rate.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/4_Vesta
Quote:

Rotation

Olbers Regio (dark area) defines the prime meridian in the IAU coordinate system. It is shown here in a Hubble shot of Vesta, because it is not visible in the more detailed Dawn images.

Claudia crater (indicated by the arrow at the bottom of the closeup image at right) defines the prime meridian in the Dawn/NASA coordinate system.
Vesta's rotation is relatively fast for an asteroid (5.342 h) and prograde, with the north pole pointing in the direction of right ascension 20 h 32 min, declination +48° (in the constellation Cygnus) with an uncertainty of about 10°. This gives an axial tilt of 29°.[60]

So, if you did deep mining on Vesta, you might build a structure around the little world that extended well beyond its geosynchronous orbit.
The eventually even a ring as well.

Perhaps the ring would have a ~1 g force.  And could you do a sling sort of a thing from it?

I am currently trying this: MtNOGqT.png

It is a crude drawing.

Supposing that the ring has a spin gravity of 1 g.  The payload experiences about that amount prior to release.  A cord is wound around the ring.  I have shown only one part of a winding.  Upon release the payload still attached to the cord, is centrifugally spun to more outer orbits, but the cord still attached increases its velocity, (I think).

The payload is released from the cord prior to losing all slack.  And then some sort of machine rewinds the cord, and a new payload is attached.

I may have found something, or I have made a mistake in which case I need to learn something.

Done

The ring may or may not be attached to a world such as Vesta.  The ring may have habitats for humans.  The ring may have a matter receiver in the form of a sort of gutter on the inside of the ring.  The outer perimeter of the ring may be a place for a sling-type launching device.

The ring may host propulsion methods to increase its spin as a stored energy resource.

Vesta may of course be a source of Metals, Glasses, and Ceramics.  A different asteroid may be able to send ice.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_e … _asteroids

I think I like 10 Hygiea: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/10_Hygiea for that.
There could be other candidates.  But with a ring sling, perhaps it could toss ice around.

And then Ceres, perhaps as a source of Nitrogen.

Ceres being larger, I might want to try space elevators and rings on smaller objects.

Methods for propelling a ring, could be a very efficient ejection of excess Oxygen.  The Mass Driver for that could be very long, and perhaps follow the rings shape.  Its mass does not have to be made light, as the mass is simply a part of the rings ability to store inertia in spin of matter, or a flywheel.

In the case of harvesting spin from the inertia of the Photon Wind, solar sails could be canted as would be useful according to position on the ring they would be attached to.  They would move to change the tilt/cant, with every rotation.

It may be possible to have superconductive magnetic sails to also pull inertia from the solar wind.  Perhaps a trolly hosting such would run on a track around the ring, always positioning the magnetic sail to a propulsion advantage.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-05-31 12:02:34)


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#1735 2024-05-31 21:27:38

Void
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Posts: 7,354

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

I am not sure I have accomplished a plan for a practical machine.  Perhaps the proportions are not the best.

But the similar concept of a spinning wheel, or ring, could be a base for some other form of propulsion such as a Mass Driver or a Gas Gun.

I am trying for something of use and think it may be nearby.

A Mass Driver could be circular on the ring, or linear as to be a spoke of a ring.

Better notions would be welcome.

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#1736 2024-06-01 11:27:55

Void
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Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

CkVJLRb.png

The above is an attempt to conceive of a machine that could convert solar outputs such as the Magnetic Solar Wind or a Photon Wind into a mechanical spin with a ring as a flywheel.  It is not intended to be a diagram of an actual machine that you would build, rather to point to possible machines that could be designed.

While it would be expected that like a sail in the wind, the magnetic field would end up "Above" the ring, the trolly from which the magnetic field emerges from, uses the ring as a rail, and keeps the magnetic field facing into the wind in an off-center way.  This then should put increasing spin into the Ring/Flywheel.

Keeping such a structure positioned will actually need other means of doing so.  For now, we can simply say some sort of thrusters.

The Ring/Flywheel can be a Synthetic Gravity platform also, even a habitat for humans and pets, robots and plants and such.

But we might also want to try to turn it into a spin launch sort of platform.  Spin Launch is being tested on Earth, so why not in orbital space?

The thing about solar propulsions is that you need hardware that has inertia.  It is not convenient to move that away from the solar energy that is provided.  So, if you could keep it centered at a location that may be interesting.  Then you simply use it as a booster to boost a payload or spacecraft with a payload on its way.

So, there could be some value in this.  And if you are at a location far from the sun such as Jupiter or Saturn, you may use a mirror to concentrate sunlight. (But Nuclear is an option).  In any case your power supply has a lot of inertia, and you will want to reuse it so you may try to keep it accessible to further launches.

A magnetic sail would work better than a photon sail in such situations as for the same power, the further you are from the sun the larger your magnetic sail will become.  But of course, I was ignoring the magnetic fields of Jupiter and Saturn that would keep the solar wind away from this.  I am not sure if you could do something similar with a planets magnetic field???  I think you might be able to.

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Last edited by Void (2024-06-01 11:46:13)


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#1737 2024-06-01 14:31:38

Void
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Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

Anyway, I would think to return to the question of Terrestrial Crossing Asteroids.  Mars and perhaps some of the Mail Belt asteroids may supply things that many of the Crossers do not have.  But these, even the stony ones are now expected to have some water in their regolith.

These might be converted into partial Spaceships of a sort, perhaps with a Diamond Ring in some cases and perhaps with a full ring in other cases.  It may be possible to move them slowly also.  And it may be possible to park them into an orbit of a planet such as Mars.

I would consider Phobos and Deimos and other tiny moons of the solar system to be in a similar class of object as far as methods might go.
For the Earth/Moon it may be sensible to never try to get an asteroid into orbit, but it may be very ok to manufacture hardware on those asteroids and convey it to Earth/Moon orbits.

Such efforts on Crossers could include means for long term human life support and also of course robots of various sorts.

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Last edited by Void (2024-06-01 14:33:42)


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#1738 2024-06-01 16:11:52

Void
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Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

Of course, with new discovery there can be changes to intentions and plans.

But I see Vesta as a place to experiment with things like space elevators and orbital rings.  This is because Vesta has a strong resemblance to a Terrestrial.  But because it is from a volcanic birth, it may have mineral veins that may be good for specialty materials.  But 16 Psyche could be a substitute.  Perhaps there are others.

I see 10 Hygiea as a good source of water, perhaps Carbon.

Ceres is an opportunity to begin to learn how to work with Dwarf Planets.

Needed materials, might be sent to terrestrial crossing asteroids, and the materials from terrestrial crossing asteroids to the planets.

I see this as rather good.  And I think that habitats can be set up in many places for Robots and also perhaps Humans.

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Last edited by Void (2024-06-01 17:54:44)


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#1739 2024-06-06 10:55:04

Void
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Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

I have a liking for the shape of a healthy red blood cell.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_blood_cell
Image Quote: th?id=OSK.HERO3onpBp-xDVH161A2OvgldHhtXBH9TDSCiPpm2fmB8co&w=312&h=200&c=15&rs=2&o=6&pid=SANGAM

For this various forms of nesting might be supported.  Also it may well be possible to have solar power devices external to it to send it power.  This could be valuable in the outer solar system.

The shell of the shape could be built of various construction materials that can be considered normal and also, things like ices and organic materials similar to wood.  (Organics more on the insides).

The shape may or may not spin for synthetic gravity.  Also, it may hold a very low pressure or with far more work a higher pressure.

While we might hope to import power from external power stations solar or nuclear, the surface of the shape could be made suitable to radiate heat.  And perhaps with radiator fins on the outside.  These may help to endure impactors as well as shed heat.  They may have magnetic properties so that portions chipped off may collect to a provided magnetic field.

While an interior coating of ice or organic materials may insulate, a system that is incorporated into the outer skin may circulate fluids to shed waste heat.  This would be divided into many subparts, so that a ruptures consequences could be isolated to reduce that cost of damages.

These might be made from the materials of moons perhaps.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2024-06-06 11:06:43)


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#1740 2024-06-07 10:39:29

Void
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Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

In the cold oceans a large warm-blooded animal like a whale is advantaged by large size.  I am thinking of this advantage for nesting methods inside of the planetary magnetic fields of Jupiter, Saturn, Uranus, and Neptune.

Using the materials of the just prior post, these all have moons for materials.  Saturn may have the best setup.

I am indeed thinking of solar concentrating mirrors that might also serve as radiators for solar and nuclear heat engines.  Or might have solar panels at their focus of a mixture of various schemes.

Then the beam microwaves to large protective enclosures which may have nested devices in them such as spin gravity devices.

Solar may be rather a long stretch for Uranus and Neptune, but nuclear should be workable, presuming fusion.

Although at first waste heat will be a desired resource, eventually presuming a progression of increasing power capabilities, then having power stations separate from the main shell for nesting, would shed heat to the universe, and deliver microwaves to the main nesting frame.  The nesting frame being large could hole heat like a large mammal but could have a circulatory system as well that could shed heat to the skin of the enclosure, as desired.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-06-07 10:46:41)


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#1741 2024-06-22 10:59:03

Void
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Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

There appear to be limited remaining interests for me to participate on this web site.

But I guess for the moment I will try to expand a certain notion of agriculture for Space.  For the moment I am interested in plants like Cactus as for a crop.  Here is a post I just did elsewhere that can be reference materials: https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 38#p224638

Elon Musk has said that something like Vitamin "C" deficiency is an example of how a space colony may fall short of survival.  I think that certain types of Cactuses could be a partial solution to that.

Retaining water is a matter of importance.  Any enclosure may and will leak, and so then will leak moisture.

I have had an interest in combining a heat engine with a greenhouse.  Such a structure could employ methods to minimize moisture losses as well.  So, plants that can be grown at lower humidities may be of value.

Also, plants that can grow in lower pressures may be of value.  It seems to me that cactus have likely solved how to get CO2 from the atmosphere while losing a smaller amount of water to the atmosphere.

Here is a conversation about air pressure and CO2 for plants: http://scienceline.ucsb.edu/getkey.php? … atment.%22  Quote:

The main reason why pressure changes can affect plant growth is because it will alter the rate of gas exchange between this plant and the air. It's actually pretty similar to the reason we feel shortness of breath at high altitudes. Plants need to be able to take in CO2 to photosynthesize and grow. So, being at high altitude (low atmospheric pressure) can prevent plants from growing as fast because they are not able to take in as much CO2 as they could at sea level."

(The entire article is an interesting read).  They talk about Tomatoes, but those will require more water than Cactus will.

The balance of CO2 in vs H20 out matters.  I expect that Cactus will do it better than Tomatoes.  It is not proven.

The greening of Earth from elevated CO2 seems to be true: https://science.nasa.gov/earth/climate- … erfor-now/  Quote:

CO2 is making Earth greener—for now

So multiple tricks may allow plant growth with reduced amounts of humidity in air that may leak from a Heat Engine/Greenhouse.

A "Hot Window" boiler may be a component for such a Heat Engine/Greenhouse.  Such a window would receive a focus from a mirror, perhaps.  The heat used to drive a heat engine, the window allowing wavelengths of light into an enclosure.

The of course you need a radiator method, and also to be able to moderate the conditions inside of the greenhouse.

As I see it you might have at least two layers of envelope that the light would pass though.  The first would be the "Hot Window", the 2nd would be a humidity retaining tent.  The air gap between them might be filled with dry Oxygen at a lower air pressure.  This is to reduce losses of CO2 and H20 to space from leaks.  The dry Oxygen layer may be dehumidified by the radiator process which is needed to run a heat engine.

If soil were involved for plants, then that soil could be refrigerated to the tolerance of the plants, to help retain water in the soil for the plants to absorb.  And the air above the plants would have elevated CO2 and minimize H20, to the tolerance of the plants.  It is my guess that Cactus of some types may do somewhat better than Tomatoes on this, but no proof of that at this time.

So, I could elaborate on this some more, and give diagrams, but I should hope to do more than keyboard on a computer today which is a weekend.

Later perhaps.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-06-22 11:36:55)


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#1742 2024-06-22 14:32:49

Void
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Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

Here then is an attempt at a Heat Engine Greenhouse: k3vsmVP.png

The "Light Bulb Window" is the latest notion.

The shape that is a bit like a light bulb, may be of a frame of metal pipes, and may have a tent of transparent webbing around it.  Or, if you like a film of something like poly film.

The "Base" of the lightbulb is to be of pipe framing as well but of transparent ceramic window materials of some kind, ALON for instance.

Aluminum Oxynitride for instance: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aluminium_oxynitride, maybe some other things.  The purpose of the base window is to absorb heat from the light, and to block wavelengths not desired to enter the greenhouse.

The purpose of the lightbulb shape is to limit the pressure differential that the base window experiences, and to limit leakage of gasses from the devices.

There are actually 3 heating devices.  1) The greenhouse and the plants in it. 2) The "Lightbulb". 3) The "Base" window.  I expect them to be of different temperatures with 1 as the lowest temperature and 3 as the highest.

I have not shown a radiator system for the Heat Engine, but the mirror itself might be part of such a structure.  I just haven't developed the radiator too much yet at this point.

The greenhouse could have low pressure, but of course to host humans would need at least 250 mbar, probably more towards 333 mbar as a minimum.

Otherwise, robots could tend the gardens if the pressure were lower.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-06-22 14:43:31)


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#1743 2024-06-23 12:13:14

Void
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Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

Referring to the diagram in the just previous post this is a cousin diagram sort of: 7RCWPiu.png

Here an attempt is made to create an "Inverse Window", as a cylinder, like a fluorescent lamp shape of sorts.  It is not high art nor is it well fleshed out.  Rather it is an attempt to create something useful.  In this case I am anticipating using it on a world like Mars, which is going to be much harder than to do it in orbital space, in my opinion.

An inverse window of this sort is a frame of metal perhaps making a cylinder, with a transparency wrapped around it.  Perhaps of a "Plastic" film.  If possible, this frame would also be piping, so that heat could be extracted from the sunlight "Piped" in.  This sort of window has both Compressive, and potentially tensile characteristics.

Most windows I am aware of have to hold against bulging from a differential pressure, high pressure on one side, and lower pressure on the other.  The metal pipe frame would experience compressive forces, and yet the plastic film wrap around would have sectional tensile forces to endure, as where the gaps between frame pipes existed, it would bulge out towards the interior of the cylinder.

If these concepts have merit, then we have historical discovery of lightbulb shapes, that now could become in use for "Inverse Windows".

In this case the inverse window, may allow a reduction of damaging radiation into the growth chamber, and yet to hope to convey useful photons into it.

Another old technology we might look into could be the optics of lighthouses.  Some images: https://www.bing.com/images/search?q=Li … C3&first=1

As I have said, I think it will be much easier to do these things in orbital space, but then again with some effort, it may have a payoff on various worlds. 

Done

Fresnel Lens:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fresnel_lens

I think that there are also Fresnel Mirrors:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ridged_mirror
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compact_l … _reflector
Quote:

These mirrors are capable of concentrating the sun's energy to approximately 30 times its normal intensity.[1]

So, some food for young imaginations perhaps.

Done

The use of plastic films as the glaze for an inverse window is quick and dirty as a solution, but will have limited tolerance for elevated temperatures.  With greater effort things like ALON might be used.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aluminium_oxynitride
Quote:

Melting point    ~2150 °C[1]

So, quite a high melting point, but of course more difficult than a plastic film.

Anyway, a new field of technological art is suggested, or at least I think I see one.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-06-23 12:44:32)


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#1744 2024-06-24 14:06:08

Void
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Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

This is something I had not thought of at all: https://phys.org/news/2024-06-centers-space.html
Quote:

JUNE 24, 2024

Editors' notes
Could we put data centers in space?
by Andy Tomaswick, Universe Today

This would be for gaining both energy and cooling.  The Moon's poles come to mind.  Also, I think that mirrors with an aerogel backing layer, could have a heat shedding heat exchanger on the reverse side.

From post 1742, quote:

Here then is an attempt at a Heat Engine Greenhouse: k3vsmVP.png

The "Light Bulb Window" is the latest notion.

The shape that is a bit like a light bulb, may be of a frame of metal pipes, and may have a tent of transparent webbing around it.  Or, if you like a film of something like poly film.

The "Base" of the lightbulb is to be of pipe framing as well but of transparent ceramic window materials of some kind, ALON for instance.

Aluminum Oxynitride for instance: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aluminium_oxynitride, maybe some other things.  The purpose of the base window is to absorb heat from the light, and to block wavelengths not desired to enter the greenhouse.


So actually, a greenhouse, with a heat engine and a local load, being compute resources.  Probably more economic than beaming power down to the Earth or another planet.

Time latency may not be a problem, if a problem is sent out to a remote location that may take seconds, minutes, or hours, but if the problem is then solved at a location such as the Moon, Mars, or Saturn, and then sent back, it may still make sense.

That would be a really weird way to terraform Mars, using compute to melt the ice caps.  In that case likely you would beam power down from orbit.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-06-24 14:16:27)


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#1745 2024-06-26 10:36:44

Void
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Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

I collected this a few day ago, and may want to build on them:

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Solubility of Uranium, in seawater, per Oxygen amounts in the sea: https://phys.org/news/2024-06-sediments … -mass.html

Bacteria that "Breath" Uranium Oxide: https://phys.org/news/2015-06-scientist … obile.html
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

So, in a "Nuts-Shell", Uranium is selectively soluble in water.  With Oxygen then soluble, without then not so soluble.

I have in the past gone to the notion of "Tucking Heat" into icy deposits on Mars, to create ice covered bodies of water.  This heat could be solar on the ground and also derived from solar in orbit.

But with melt water, such bodies of water being salty could be manipulated to have a patchwork of seafloor with selective amounts of Oxygen in the water.  So, if you had brine pools in places with a lack of Oxygen and likely a Hydrocarbon instead, then Uranium may tend to condense in those from the Oxygen rich soluble water elsewhere.  The use of microbes may cause a greater facilitation of that.

So, then you might also heat these seas with fission power from Uranium.

The polar ice caps of Mars may be suitable for this, and of course there are other worlds with seas.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-06-26 10:44:10)


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#1746 2024-06-29 21:01:55

Void
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Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

Among the things that Calliban has taught me is that cold will be a resource eventually if humans can tap vast amounts of energy, and also that Uranium may be a very good propulsion method for the solar system, and that making the Martian atmosphere too thick may make it hard or impossible to use a mass driver on Mars.

So, Mars looks like it could be a very useful planet close to its current nature.  At least for a while.

And so, for Mars I am very interested in Para Tarraforming methods, including water reservoirs, and also in its orbits habitations.

Thinking of it as a second "Earth" is perhaps a bad notion at least for some time to come.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-06-29 21:03:41)


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#1747 2024-06-30 21:35:07

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Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

This post ended up with a damaged link, so I am putting that materials in this quote, and adding a new link at the bottom of this post:

I think i will bring this here as it will likely be orphaned elsewhere: https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 00#p224800

Basically, it is about activities on the Earth's ice caps that may be of an advantage.  I would like to suggest that a variation of it could be done on Mars also.

Most people want to stay far away from the Martian ice caps, but while I think first settlements should likely be put near the equator if possible, mastering the Martian polar ice caps may give the human race the planet, in my opinion.

Over a long period of time, I have developed notions for this.  The small polar caps themselves are one thing, and the layered deposits around them yet another.

Polar Ice Caps: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martian_p … blimes.%20
Quote:

The northern polar cap has a diameter of about 1000 km during the northern Mars summer,[3] and contains about 1.6 million cubic km of ice, which if spread evenly on the cap would be 2 km thick.[4] (This compares to a volume of 2.85 million cubic km (km3) for the Greenland ice sheet.) The southern polar cap has a diameter of 350 km and a thickness of 3 km.[5] The total volume of ice in the south polar cap plus the adjacent layered deposits has also been estimated at 1.6 million cubic km.[6] Both polar caps show spiral troughs, which recent analysis of SHARAD ice penetrating radar has shown are a result of roughly perpendicular katabatic winds that spiral due to the Coriolis Effect.[7][8]

For the polar ice caps, I suggest solar and nuclear power, with installations on the surface and also extensive tunneling inside of the ice caps.

For the area around the ice caps, I suggest covered seas and lakes, that can be filled with water from tunnels in ice.

The tunnel systems in the ice caps could be filled with O2, perhaps are a pressure of 1/3 bar, or maybe even deeper down a higher pressure O2/N2/Argon mix.

This then would give a large Oxygen reserve.  This turned up today, and looks promising for making Methanol on Mars:
https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/other/r … bf97&ei=20
Quote:

Revolutionary Catalyst Transforms CO2 Into Renewable Methanol
Story by Martha A. Lavallie • 11h

While tunnels in the ice caps seem uninviting, if you had fission reactors, then they could be tolerable year around.

And this may fit into the situation: https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/news/ne … 13#details
Quote:

New Material Harnesses Wasted Light to Make Solar Panels More Efficient
Scientists have developed a glass-ceramic material that can convert ultraviolet light into visible light, significantly increasing solar panel efficiency. The material also protects next-generation solar cells from degradation under strong light, with applications in both terrestrial and space industries.

And that may very well serve as greenhouse materials, where greenhouses could be on top of the ice caps.  Greenhouses with a extensive tunnel network below them in the ice caps.

By various means ice could be warmed up but not melted, so that over time it may be too warm for extensive CO2 deposits to accumulate on them.  Similar for the seas and lakes that might be made around the ice caps.

It may be possible that the seas and lakes created might become a source of Uranium, if the solvent methods can be mastered.  Water with Oxygen in the water may dissolve Uranium Oxides, and microbes might harvest it if given hydrocarbons to eat and Uranium Oxide to breath.

Done

The above post seems to have a damaged link now.  Here is a substitute: https://www.independent.co.uk/tech/sola … 73236.html
Quote:

Tech
Solar panel breakthrough harnesses wasted light to boost efficiency
Transparent layer converts UV to visible light, while also providing protection for the solar cell

Anthony Cuthbertson
Thursday 04 January 2024 15:14 GMT

I recalled it was first posted about China anyway, so I guess this may do.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-07-02 04:57:31)


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#1748 2024-07-03 17:11:23

Void
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Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

I am having a look at this: Hydrogen: https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/technolo … 57e9&ei=45
Quote:

Scientists make breakthrough using sunlight and waste to produce clean hydrogen: 'This is a transformative technology'
Story by Rick Kazmer • 3d • 3 min read

I want to study this more.  But what looks good to me is that large masses of ice on Mars could host ice tunnels where Oxygen and biomass could be stored long term.  At times solar panels might help to liberate Hydrogen, and also nuclear fission.

Methane to produce is yet another way.  In that case then of course, Biomass from a freezer to a digester may produce the Methane.

To send "Water" to other locations on Mers, then a Methane Gas pipeline system.  So then sending Methane, then to react it with Oxygen to produce water, and so then perhaps ice where it was not accumulated before.

While electrolysis may gain Oxygen from the atmosphere, basic biology may do it better, growth chambers for Cyanobacteria.  And those also to produce the bulk of the biomass to freeze in the ice tunnels.

I am working on it.

Done

https://phys.org/news/2021-02-biotech-r … ipeline%20
Quote:

FEBRUARY 16, 2021

Biotech fit for the Red Planet: New method for growing cyanobacteria under Mars-like conditions
by Frontiers

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-07-03 17:25:51)


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#1749 2024-07-03 20:34:15

Void
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Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

As an amendment to the previous post, I see that this showed up:

It is claimed to have survival superpowers, maybe with some minimal assistance it could make it on Mars?

One thing they may not have factored in is that it may be that at night enough humidity occurs due to low temperatures that such a plant may draw water from the air.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-07-03 20:39:17)


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#1750 2024-07-04 11:00:00

Void
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Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

In the last two posts, I have been dabbling in identifying potential resources for a planet like Mars.  I guess a consequence is a result of manipulations of raw circumstances.  A resource would then be a gainful consequence of such manipulations of raw circumstances.  Gainful is then defined by human desire so far as I have seen.  Perhaps otherwise called "Economic Gain".  Economic gain then is an amplification of the needed effort to produce a consequence though manipulations.

I concede the need to look to the gentler regions of Mars to hope to gain a foothold on the planet.  And there are large ice bodies at various latitudes of Mars.  Water from ice deposits has already been identified as a needed raw material.  In the case of Carbon, Mars is more generous than the Earth in the sense of availability over the entire surface of the planet.  But of course, that Carbon is Oxidized.

But in the end the polar ice caps themselves may be a raw material of some value.  I want to look further into that.  We have to presume that if the polar ice caps are to be manipulated to produce a consequence that results in  economic gain and resources, an energy source is going to be needed.  That can be various types of Solar and then also types of Nuclear.  But we also need a heat sink, ultimately in order to gain full benefits from those.  The ice caps of Mars may provide those.

Among those sources of cold are that currently available from exposure to the universe, and also fossil cold stored in the ices of the ice masses of Mars.  Fossil cold may be more economical to tap than surface radiating methods.  Like fossil fuels, however this raw material "Fossil Cold" is of a finite bur abundant amount, provided by nature from the past history of the planet Mars.

A possible source of energy could be Thorium brought to Mars by immigrants.  Perhaps to immigrate to Mars you would need to bring a certain amount of Thorium.  It could be a sort of currency like gold.  But of course, efforts to produce energy recourses from the local raw circumstances may be strongly desired as well.  I am going to presume that the energy need can be3 satisfied.  So, back to the heat sink need.

Tunneling is one way to satisfy that.  The ice being very cold, I expect, you have the options to warm it to warm ice, and then to a liquid and then finally to a vapor to be released to atmosphere.  Or you may warm the ice and melt it and release it to distribution networks to send it to lower latitudes.  Releasing it as a vapor may cause some interesting effects.  If you could get it to the upper atmosphere, it would be a greenhouse gas for a while.  If you released it to the low atmosphere, then it may cause snows and frosts at lower latitudes.  Another way to distribute moisture to low latitudes would be a contained atmospheric river.  Simply a sort of Pipelines-Greenhouse network where you flowed humidified air towards lower latitudes.  In the process, then hardy photo-life might grow inside of those.  These would have to put up with CO2 frost accumulations at higher latitudes in winter however, somehow.  But if vegetation could be fostered inside of them, then that could be harvested to make various products of use, such as Hydrogen, Methane, and organic matter, which may support the growth of Mushrooms.

The "Pipelines-Greenhouse network" could loop back to the tunnel system in the ice masses, so that Oxygen produced could be compressed into the tunnels as stored Oxidizer.  It may be that those ice tunnels will require some sort of liner such as a poly film, to hold air pressure.  If organic matter were brought back to be stored also in freezing conditions then you would have a fuel and Oxidizer stored.  LOX storage is not out of the question as well.

For the ice tunnels system, we could look at what ants and termites do.  Also, some underground human habitations might give inspiration.  Maybe some ground burrowing wasps also could give suggestion.

Here is an underground city in Anatolia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Derinkuyu … round_city

While ice tunnels may not seem inviting to humans, they may be very suitable to humanoid robots.  And it is also possible to give humans comfortable accommodation.   Nuclear reactors easily could provide that with waste heat, and waste heat further could be used to create more tunnels tapping fossil cold.

But also, local and orbital solar power may well have value.

So, I think I can imagine a pathway to a more useful Mars as seen from a human desire(s).

Done

While the potential accumulation of water, in part from the solar wind may be important, I anticipate that the capture of Helium might be of some value also.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-07-06 05:46:11)


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