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#1701 2024-04-16 13:00:48

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 7,219

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

To be fair, I guess it should be further studied the dangers of plastics, as the truth will set you free: https://www.theguardian.com/environment … dy-plastic

I will accept fair minded study.  But will be suspicious of "Movements" that involve self important crusaders who really should be given a better outlet for their inherited or induced psychological needs.

True study of plastics in the bodies of water we utilize, may indicate best practices.  I don't think it is reasonable to adopt a fanatic no-plastics stance.  Obviously dumping plastic waste into the oceans is completely wrong.

To make water filled underwater greenhouses, perhaps some types of plastics would be less harmful than others.  That would be good to know for places like Mars as well, as I feel the devices will be useful there.

Here is a notion of a self-propelled robotic greenhouse, underwater: dRY8UOR.png

Possibly something like this could exist in an ocean Gyre, hovering below the waves and storms.

Solar cells will not be high preforming and would need to be in a dry bag, I expect, but this could work.  Or if there are waves perhaps it could pull some energy from them. 

I have shown a small amount of air in the top, but unlike Nemos gardens, this would try to have a neutral buoyancy.

The schemes could be many.  Salt water outside, fresh water inside (Fresh water floats), or the inverse, or the same type of water inside or outside.  In some schemes the bag would be closed and not have an inlet and outlet that this drawing shows.



You might grow many things inside of it, at the moment I am contemplating macroalgae.

Hydrilla is generally frowned upon.  But let's say you have a bag of it in the dead sea.  You distilled fresh water from the dead sea, and filled a bag.  Now there are few animals that may damage the bag, as it is submerged and the salt is unfriendly to most life.

Hydrilla is not going to take up residence in the dead sea, but you should keep it away from the mouth of fresh water rivers.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrilla

I don't know how permeable plastic can be.  I would expect many situations.  If not too permeable then you don't lose much of the water in the bag so your makeup water may not be too much in quantity.

https://seagrant.oregonstate.edu/sites/ … 100913.pdf
Quote:

Can be eaten by humans
Hydrilla is a freshwater aquatic plant that can be eaten by humans. It is dried and processed to remove the water content, making it an edible powder12. There are no special requirements for processing Hydrilla before it can be consumed, and no known health risks associated with eating it2. Hydrilla has a bland taste but is high in calcium, iron, and vitamin B-12, so it can be dried, powdered, and used as a vitamin supplement3.

And so, this might be done on Mars, if we made our own Dead Sea there.

Don Juan Pond:
https://www.amusingplanet.com/2014/09/d … er-on.html

https://www.atlasobscura.com/places/don-juan-pond

Quote:

https://antarcticsun.usap.gov/science/4 … renheit%29.

Minus 50 degrees Celsius (-58 Fahrenheit)
Though only about twice the area of an Olympic-sized swimming pool, and barely a foot deep, Don Juan Pond is famous for being the saltiest body of water on the entire planet. Its waters are so saturated with salt that it doesn’t fully freeze unless the temperatu...
A Chemical Detective Story: Why is Don Juan Pond So Salty? - Anta…
antarcticsun.usap.gov/science/4362/
antarcticsun.usap.gov/science/4362/

https://endmemo.com/chem/vaporpressurewater.php

At -50 then the vapor pressure would be 0.0577 mbar, very much less than the 5.5 average on Mars.

Looking back at this post: https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 77#p221877

I think that -50 would be extreme, I think the conditions of the "Dead Sea" could be more moderate.  Of course, I expect the thing to be domed over, but at times when the outside humidity was high at night it might be possible in some way to extract moisture from the air to get it into the "Dead Sea".

Anyway, I have been over this stuff before in different ways.  I think that farming like this could be done on Earth and other worlds as well, perhaps Mars.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-04-16 13:53:52)


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#1702 2024-04-18 11:10:58

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 7,219

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

OK let's consider the Earth.  Let's suppose that due to global warming, we have to prop things up somehow, to squeak by and gradually bring things back.

What I will suggest is radical.

Let's put solar farms on the poles.  Send the power up by microwaves, and the bounce it back down to users.  Granted there will be two stages of loss, but this is to help the poles stay cold.

In the case of the Antarctic, if ports can be kept open then the idea would be to involve the coastal ecosystems the least amount possible.

In the case of Canada more or less you have some islands, and some floating ice.

In both cases you may have light bouncing off of reflective surfaces into your vertical solar panels.  Granted, this may bring heat to lower in the atmosphere, but it also will shade the surface ices and snows.

And to a small degree the equipment will be drawing heat off of the ice into the air at night and in the winters.

You may be able to cause glaciers to grow, as you may prohibit, melting and evaporation.

Perhaps if you could make the solar panels reflect unused light into the sky, instead of converting it to heat, you would gain cold.

Of course, each polar installation would only operate in parts of the year, but of course they are in opposing time slots.

I think these would need to be robotic so that they could step up on top of accumulating ice.  The Arctic ice flows might be particularly tricky.

I forgot about Greenland.  You could stop the surface melts of ice in the interior I may suppose.  Adding shade, and also transmitting significant portions of the sunlight as microwaves to relay satellites in the sky.

Tricky but possible, I think.  Easier in the land masses than on the sea ice.  I suppose that in the case of Greenland you might use some of the power locally to run robotic factories dug into the ice.  That could be profitable.

I think that Greenland or Canada could run a pilot project somewhere.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-04-18 11:20:17)


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#1703 2024-04-24 19:10:46

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 7,219

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

Going a bit further, the largest risk may be water tables in the ice masses.

This video loads slow for me, but talks about it: https://www.bing.com/videos/riverview/r … ajaxhist=0
Quote:

Greenland ice lakes drain at speed of Niagara Falls
YouTube
New Scientist
312.2K views
Apr 17, 2008

And this description may apply to permafrost bottomed lakes and seas which might be created on other worlds: https://www.whoi.edu/press-room/news-re … ake-drain/

If the ice under the body of water has less average weight than the liquid above it this could happen.

But I think that quite often the permafrost under a lake may be "Dirty" with dust, sand, and rocks in it, so I speculate that a bottom rupture is not likely then.

If the global warming alarmists turn out to be correct and melting like this threatens to lubricate ice in any of the ice caps, then I suggest some interventions may be possible and perhaps even profitable.

We have to be suspicious of the "People Farmers", the Fascists and the Communists/Socialists.  I believe I see evidence that they have use the climate issue to cause turmoil, also they may be promoting the deindustrialization of the west to weaken it for conquest or simply to make it impotent as a competitor.  Probably this is a real factor.

But climate problems may also be serious, so it would be good to have tools to manage the problem if it indeed become too large a problem.

I think that the method could be the opposite of tucking heat: https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=10756

"Index» Terraformation» Tucking Heat as a Para Terraform method."

The raw materials that may exist on top of an ice cap can be water, CO2, Sunlight, and Wind.

If you shade the ice that may melt, and also perhaps reflect some of the light back into space, you may reduce melting.  If you were to capture some of the sunlight energy and make Hydrocarbon fuels with it you also take some of the energy away from the melt and store it in the created fuels.

If you reduce melting obviously more ice mass is retained, but also you take away some of the lubricant that is supposed to assist the ice to slide downhill towards the sea.

If you make Hydrocarbons, and then ship them away from the ice, then that heat may be released later in locations away from the ice, and in particular it may be consumed in the winter, when melting is not a danger.

I suggest animated solar panels, with legs and computer brains.  These solar panels may also have a layer above them that reflects wavelengths out into space that cannot produce electricity.

I believe that in most cases, melting occurs after the sunlight has passed through ice, and then that darkens, the surface.

One trick would be to put fresh white snow over such spots.

Another would be to have robots build domes of snow, with holes for ventilation.  The hope here would be to encourage air to flow though these and so disperse the heat to the air above the ice cap.

Now, I have tried to get a solution that also may give material gain to humans.  But you may expect that the

"People Farmers", the Fascists and the Communists/Socialists

will try to bend it into a burden that may even be silly.  Such as using electricity to extract CO2 from the air, without creating a material benefit.  Remember that they want to break down the common people so that the common people can become their livestock, from which they can extract power and wealth and exercise cruelty over.

In locations where ice was relatively stable it might also be possible to install greenhouses on stilts, to grow food.  Remember "Midnight Sun", so, a source of sunlight for perhaps 4 months out of the year that was sufficient to warm the greenhouses.

Here again, you might put a reflective coating on the glaze, to reject unusable wavelengths back into the sky.

Many of these things could apply to Mars, but you would most likely want to capture and tuck heat in those ice caps.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2024-04-25 10:31:57)


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#1704 2024-04-25 10:38:19

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 7,219

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

Turning back to Mars, there are some strange things that go into our heads it seems.

We have had these stupid binary arguments, or I think Isaac Arthur calls the "Circular Firing Squads".

1) Mars against the Moon.

2) O'Neill cylinders against surface colonies.  Some of us can conceive of orbital habitats associated with Earth/Moon, but not Mars.

3) The poles of Mars are too cold to settle in, but then we want settlements on Callisto.

1) Well, it is becoming obvious that if you have a "Starship" or the equivalent, then it makes sense to access both Mars "AND" the Moon.

2) O'Neill cylinders were a good try in their time, but newer notions are available.  People can conceive of such in the Earth/Moon orbits, where you have to get your solids from the Moon to a large extent, and your fluids from the Earth.  But they cannot latch onto the idea that you could get your solids from Phobos and Deimos, and a whole spectrum of materials from Mars.

Some people talk about orbital mirrors to terraform Mars, but they don't think about orbital habitats for the Mars/Phobos/Deimos subsystem.

3) Seeing #2, then the settlement of the polar areas of Mars becomes more sensible.  That seems to be where much of the water and CO2 can be had. 

I think that nuclear is likely the most reliable first power source for a Mars settlement, but later it may make sense to have both orbital and surface solar power.

If you have that then you can "Tuck Heat": https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=10756

And that allows canals and ponds, and lakes and Seas.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-04-25 10:50:56)


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#1705 2024-04-26 12:36:33

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 7,219

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

This is timely: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3RQPFnWxrwg
Quote:

ENERGY BREAKTHROUGH: Synthetic Natural Gas From Sunlight And Air

Over The Horizon
1.53K subscribers

And Calliban provided this: https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 60#p222360
https://oilprice.com/Energy/Natural-Gas … ction.html
Quote:

Shale Gas Reactor Could Saves Millions in Propylene Production
By Brian Westenhaus - Apr 25, 2024, 3:00 PM CDT
New chemical reactor efficiently makes propylene from shale gas.
Hydrogen gas separation allows for higher propane pressures and more propylene production.
A plant producing 500,000 metric tons of propylene annually could save as much as $23.5 million using this method.

So, having another look at the Earth's polar ice caps, then if indeed sea levels may start to rise (Actually), then it may pay to inhibit ice melting.  After all, then that reduces the speed that ice would slide into the oceans.  The land conserved from flooding would be worth quite a lot.

How this service might be paid for, is a question.  I guess those cities that were in danger of flooding, would have an interest in promoting it.

Are Sea Levels rising?  https://www.climate.gov/news-features/u … -sea-level
Quote:

Global Web Icon
Climate.gov
https://www.climate.gov/.../understandi … /climate-…
Climate Change: Global Sea Level | NOAA Climate.gov
Global average sealevel has risen 8–9 inches (21–24 centimeters) since 1880. In 2022, global average sealevel set a new record high—101.2 mm (4 inches) above 1993 levels.

So, maybe there will be an economic case.  It does not mattery why the sea level is rising, but if you reduce melting it may be worthwhile.

But then of course the materials of this post may be important for Mars.

Done

I looked this up: https://techcrunch.com/2024/04/01/terra … tural-gas/  Quote:

Climate
Terraform Industries converts electricity and air into synthetic natural gas for the first time
Aria Alamalhodaei@breadfrom / 12:05 PM CDT•April 1, 2024

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-04-26 13:09:12)


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#1706 2024-05-01 09:24:19

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 7,219

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

This is interesting, it might provide a way to influence where snows would fall on Mars, presuming a slightly warmer planet: https://phys.org/news/2024-05-climate-c … ously.html
Quote:

MAY 1, 2024

Editors' notes
New climate study shows cloud cover is easier to affect than previously thought
by Technical University of Denmark)

I have read previously that if the CO2 of the ice caps was vaporized snows would be possible.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2024-05-01 09:30:02)


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#1707 2024-05-01 14:54:36

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 7,219

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

I was short on time in the previous post, so I will add some text for it.

In a partly terraformed Mars, where perhaps the average surface pressure was doubled, control of nucleation dust may help to redistribute water on the planet.  Also, of course greenhouse gasses, and added heat from orbit may help.

Sources of dust to inject might be from Phobos, Deimos, or even. Mars.

As for Mars, it might be desirable to try to inhibit nucleation dust in some locations, if a method can be found.

At the present tilt of the planet, water will tend to move to the poles as frost or snow.

But with dust controls it might be possible to bias the flow towards lower latitudes as per nucleation.

With greenhouse gasses, I believe it warms the poles more than the equator.

And power satellites and mirrors in orbit could also assist in the future hydrology of Mars.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-05-01 15:02:46)


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#1708 2024-05-10 21:18:31

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 7,219

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

This is fun, I can put it here, I haven't done much here for a while: https://www.bing.com/search?q=Comments% … FD&pc=U531

So, for the Moon after a 1km drop 203 km per hour, but then the next km drop will happen very fast, much too fast to build up so much more speed.  And of course Mars has some air drag.  Not that much.  But cargo ejected from a landing ship, might be evaluated for useful survival, just by a sort of guestimation, I suppose, from this.

It is a neat graphic.

I think that the point is that in the first km, you build up so much speed, that you may intercept the surface before too much more time has passed, and so with limited time, from that, you may not build up as much more speed as might be expected.


Done

Last edited by Void (2024-05-10 21:25:25)


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#1709 2024-05-18 15:02:54

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 7,219

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

I have been working on the notion of "Rung Worlds" in another topic: https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 93#p223193

But as I see it the development of Mars might be done on the surface as well as in orbit.  I think that would benefit both, and also benefit efforts elsewhere in the solar system.

I do want to see the polar areas developed, as I think that those and the low spots of Mars are where the first open-air or semi-open-air biomes could exist.

But reconsideration begs me to ask what assets are towards the Equator?
-Phobos
-Deimos
-Mars of course has the equator to be associated with:
-Several ice deposits are believed to be there at this point or near there.
-Near the Equator also are high and low spots, each of which may have value.

1) There is an ice deposit believed to exist near Candor Chaos, in the Great Rift Valley.  This is also a low spot perhaps with extra protection from radiation.  https://www.newscientist.com/article/23 … e-equator/

2) Noctis Mons (Provisional Name), shows some signs of glaciation and might have remnant ice: https://www.zmescience.com/space/mars-noctis-mons/
And this: https://phys.org/news/2023-03-modern-gl … r-ice.html

3) Then there is this really big one in another volcanic region with enough water to fill the red sea : https://newatlas.com/space/water-ice-un … 20colonies.
And Also: https://www.space.com/mars-water-ice-eq … ozen-ocean
Image Quote: EqtMyZH5SN8CxNSuVwJQ75-1024-80.jpg

#1 looks the easiest to get to, and #2 is unknown, and #3 would be hard to access but it appears to be massive.

And quite near the equator, at least 5 elevated mountain peaks, from which mass drivers might launch payloads to be brought to orbit.

And being near the equator then allows for two summers in a Martian year and two winters also of course.  (The sun wanders in the sky over a Martian year, due to the axis tilt.).

So, this all could be compatible with orbital structures which may have habitats, and also may collect and send to the surface energy from the sun.

And another asset that may be near the equator would be granite it seems which may have nuclear fuel, it seems.  A post from Calliban.  First the Moon is mentioned, (Post #1>), and then Mars is mentioned, (Post #6): https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=10790

So, if these assets could be stitched together both in orbit and on the surface, it could be very dynamic as an economy, I think.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-05-18 16:03:15)


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#1710 2024-05-18 18:58:38

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 7,219

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

With the materials of the just prior post, I have a "Wish-World" idea for Mars.

It happens that I have been sick once again, but it did not test as covid.  I am trying to be responsible and not spread it even so, so I am mostly trapped in my house today, looking for something to do.  So, I am here.

Since this is a "Wish-World" post, I am not so much intending to solve everything but to stitch together a set of possibilities that I Wish will be possible to eventually make work.

I think that the patch of Hydrogen in Candor Chasma, the size of the Netherlands may be a source of Hydrogen for the plan.  https://www.newscientist.com/article/23 … e-equator/
Here I am presuming that there will be no significant Hydrogen source available from Phobos, Deimos, or the tops of the mountains in and near the Tharsis Uplift.

The hope would be to have a base in the Candor Chasma where spaceships could land, and then tank up on Hydrogen.
But if Noctis Mons, does also have ice, then the Candor Chasma base may not be an urgent need: https://www.zmescience.com/space/mars-noctis-mons/
For either case, of source of ice, then a tanker could bring Hydrogen to a mountain top, perhaps Noctis Mons, or one of the other four, including perhaps Olympus Mons.

If somehow Hydrogen could be obtained locally from a mountain top, then the previous intention does not need to be done.
Anyway, at a Shield Volcano caldera, substances such as Carbon, Nitrogen, and Argon could be obtained from the Martian atmosphere.
The solar energy may be some of the best on the surface of Mars.  But also, there may be some protection from micrometeors.  With a Hydrogen source, farming inside of containments, and radiation protection should be within reach.

But a product I would like to see manufactured there would be Paraffin Wax.  If it turns out that Phobos and/or Deimos have the chemicals to make Paraffin Wax, then progression could be modified.  But I presume they don't for now.

If the process proceeds on top of a mountain, then also It may be possible to make metal drums to put the Paraffin Wax into, from local materials, perhaps using Metalysis.  A method to pull or push these to orbit might be preferred, it could perhaps involve, a Mass Driver and a Skyhook method.  But in the end if necessary then a spaceship if all else fails.

I think that we can be pretty sure that the moons of Mars can supply metals, ceramics, and Oxygen.  With Paraffin Wax, then you could do a lot.  But you might also want to bring Nitrogen and Argon to orbit to fill out the materials list.

And with that you might begin to build a "Rung World" around Mars with habitats and solar power equipment.

Parafin Wax Could also be shipped to Mars crossing asteroids so that they could be processed to help build up Mar and the solar system infrastructures in general.

The orbital solar infrastructure of Mars could beam power to various places and also assist in terraforming.

Mars_B4_Moon and Calliban have indicated that the volcanic mountains may have Thorium which is important for the nuclear industry.
https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 90#p223190
https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 96#p223196
So, that would be helpful in many ways.

Returning then to this article: https://www.space.com/mars-water-ice-eq … ozen-ocean
Image Quote: EqtMyZH5SN8CxNSuVwJQ75-1024-80.jpg 

Water extraction will be difficult, but the rewards would be enormous, I think.  I have some notions, but it is getting later.  maybe in another post.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-05-18 19:49:53)


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#1711 2024-05-19 10:54:03

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 7,219

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

Beginning a post with this:

Returning then to this article: https://www.space.com/mars-water-ice-eq … ozen-ocean
Image Quote: EqtMyZH5SN8CxNSuVwJQ75-1024-80.jpg 

Water extraction will be difficult, but the rewards would be enormous, I think.  I have some notions, but it is getting later.  maybe in another post.

I was thinking of a melt process, but understood how unstable that could be.

I think we might instead think of an inside-out sculpture.  Supposedly some sculptors, say, "It was inside of it, it is just exposed now", or
something like that.

On the diagram between the 900 and 1000 km mark (Distance), the sediments are apparently relatively thin, and also sloped, it appears.

If a tunnel were cut down to the ice, then both the overburden could be thinned down, and some ice removed.  The overburden removed could be subjected to Metalysis, to make building materials.  Those could be brought into the hollowed-out space to make a support structure to keep the remnant overburden from falling down into the void space created by removing ice.

OK, this might not be too bad an illustration: QUE6hUf.png
OK overburden is removed and converted to Oxygen and some structural parts.  You extract ice and use the structural parts to make a support structure to hold up a ceiling that holds the remnant overburden in place.  The structure will rest on jacks on the ice, so that aspect will continually change as you expand the void spaces.  Eventually you have a covered city the size of the volume of the Red Sea.

As heated air wants to rise, it may not be that hard to use a heat pump to keep the lower parts touching the ice at stabilizing cold temperatures even in the interior volume of the city can be warm.  I presume that the power supplies are on the surface, and/or in orbit.

Ice might be removed by chipping, or melting, or evaporation of some sort.  Then of course you would be resetting the supports all the time during ice removal.  And of course you would be using the water to good purposes, such as life support and also terraforming.

There is also a large body of ice buried a mile down at the north pole.  Perhaps someday that one as well.
https://phys.org/news/2019-05-massive-m … %20Arizona.

I think the key to making Mars more habitable is to intervene in the contest between ice and regolith.  Sufficient ice needs to be exposed to allow for high altitude clouds to be maintained to warm the planet.

https://www.lpi.usra.edu/planetary_news … %20Systems.
Quote:

High-Altitude Clouds May Have Warmed Early Mars

When Mars was younger and warmer, regolith piled on top of ice, would have allowed the ice to melt and then a Mars quake or impactor might have allowed floods of water out. 

But now it has to be us who will get more of the water up on top of the regolith.  The planet has cooled too much to melt it apparently.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-05-19 18:24:32)


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#1712 2024-05-19 19:10:33

Void
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Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 7,219

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

In the just prior post, I attempted to start a notion.  But I am not strongly qualified with Engineering and Architecture.

I see that Calliban has started something which seems more professional: https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 62#p223362

Anyway, perhaps the plan I suggested could use better architecture.

But the basic idea is to take some of the overburden and convert it into Oxygen and building structure to allow underground constructions.  Then, as is convenient to expand into the ice body, gradually using and replacing the ice with built structure with the proper amount of overburden to act as counterpressure to allow internal pressurization of a growing city.

Above ground structure could also be implemented of course, for things better place there, greenhouses or solar energy equipment or a rectenna to receive microwave energy transmitted from orbital power stations.

Such a city as suggested by this would be well able to generate various kinds of greenhouse gasses and other terraforming processes.

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#1713 2024-05-20 20:40:39

Void
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Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 7,219

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

This post from elsewhere was considered for Mercury, but I want to think of it for other worlds: https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 80#p223380
Quote:

l2mOXQT.png

The idea is to shoot fine materials from the surface of Mercury, to impact the cup-trough of the inner surface of the ring.

At first the surface will be abraded, but once you put a layer of dust or regolith or sintered tiles over it the metal would be protected.

Ceres, of course could be a target, or other smaller asteroids as well.  Mars may be a hard case, but maybe the mass driver notion could work from the mountaintops of Mars.

I have been told that steel space elevators could work for Ceres, but I wonder if the material throughput would be inferior to what mass drivers and Neumann Drives could deliver to the ring.

But I don't know how compatible space elevators could be with such a ring.

Beyond Ceres, the "Dwarf Planet" are exceptional asteroids: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_e … _asteroids

So, perhaps one of them would be suitable for such things.

For instance, 10 Hygeia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/10_Hygiea  It is smaller and somewhat round. 
Quote:

Hygiea (minor-planet designation: 10 Hygiea) is a major asteroid located in the main asteroid belt. With a mean diameter of between 425 and 440 km and a mass estimated to be 3% of the total mass of the belt,[11] it is the fourth-largest asteroid in the Solar System by both volume and mass, and is the largest of the C-type asteroids (dark asteroids with a carbonaceous surface) in classifications that use G type for 1 Ceres. It is very close to spherical, apparently because it had re-accreted after the disruptive impact that produced the large Hygiean family of asteroids.

A ring does not have to be at a 1 g spin, and it would be possible to hang habitats off of its outer rim, like chandeliers.

You might hand space elevators on the inner rim of a ring, or not.  I guess it is a choice.  I like having choices and options.

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#1714 2024-05-20 21:25:26

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Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

Returning to Mars, this is an OK video, another notion of where to put the first settlement: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rSZYCGHMStw  Quote:

This Is Where NASA Will Build The First MARS Colony!

The Space Race
261K subscribers

I jump around a lot from world to world, but that is because I think the best plan is to have an eye out for any world in the solar system that may have something to offer.  I don't think that it is a good idea to focus only on one world.

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#1715 2024-05-21 10:36:04

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Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

I have recently been mentioning Ceres, the "Dwarf Planet", which may have an ocean.

This article is about Pluto, which may also have an ocean: Pluto:
https://phys.org/news/2024-05-peering-p … mages.html

Quote:

MAY 21, 2024

Editors' notes
Peering into Pluto's ocean using mathematical models and images from the New Horizons spacecraft
by Chris Woolston, Washington University in St. Louis

Quote:

Their calculations suggest the ocean in this area exists beneath a shell of water ice 40 to 80 km thick, a blanket of protection that likely keeps the inner ocean from freezing solid.

Quote:

They also calculated the likely density or salinity of the ocean based on the fractures in the ice above. They estimate Pluto's ocean is, at most, about 8% denser than seawater on Earth, or roughly the same as Utah's Great Salt Lake. If you could somehow get to Pluto's ocean, you could effortlessly float.

As Nguyen explained, that level of density would explain the abundance of fractures seen on the surface. If the ocean was significantly less dense, the ice shell would collapse, creating many more fractures than actually observed. If the ocean was much denser, there would be fewer fractures. "We estimated a sort of Goldilocks zone where the density and shell thickness is just right," he said.

I am not saying that in this century it would be possible but I think actually cutting through 40-80 km of materials to the Ocean may not be impossible.

I found this calculator for weights on Planets, it seems like a nice tool.  https://www.mymonthlycycles.com/weight- … ulator.jsp

So, on Pluto, 100 pounds on Earth translates to 7 Pounds on Pluto.  So, 7%.

So, then let's reduce the numbers 40 to 80 appropriately.  So, that is the weight of 2.8 to 5.6 on Pluto.  Still some significant numbers.

But that is not of rock, but of ices: https://www.minerals.net/resource/prope … an%20water.

As I read that 4.5 is the average for rock, relative to waters 1.0,  But we are dealing with ices, but of unknown weight.  Water ice, Methan ice and Nitrogen ice.  I am content to guess 4.5 to 1.0, to get a crude guesstimation.

2.8 to 5.6 divided by 4.5 = .62 to 1.24 as per how hard it may be to drill down, presuming you had the materials to line a shaft.

A thing that may matter is what is the shaft filled with?  If it has a specific gravity profile equivalent to the ice being drilled though, then the stresses on the shaft casings may be within reason.

Fluids you might try to use may be brines, fresh water, and oils.

The interior of the shaft will need to be somewhat heated, to prevent freezing or jelling of the fluids in the interior of the shaft.

If the only ice were water ice, then it would be:
https://www.bing.com/search?q=Specific+ … cc=0&ghpl=
Quote:

At 0° C it has specific gravity 0.9168 as compared to specific gravity 0.9998 of water at the same temperature.

But this is estimation to get a sense of the magnitude of the task, precision could come later, if you were ready to do the task.

As for a strait tube of 40 km to 80 km, the use of liquid water on the inside would allow pressure to build up at a greater rate than for water ice on the outside.  This would create a differential pressure, with greater pressure inside of the passage/pipe.

Fresh water would be a problem, because if you heated the water on the inside then the outsides of the passage, may melt/vaporize Methane, and Nitrogen and maybe melt the outside water ice, increasing its density, and so destabilizing the exterior.

The use of cold fluids would then be preferred to warm ones.  This would at least allow not melting the outside water ice.

It may make sense to have a series of doors as "Airlocks", in the passage.

So, I think that their may be some hope of having a robotic method to access the ocean of Pluto, and perhaps other Dwarf Planets.

Since Pluto is a harder case, then what about Ceres?  Less likely to have large amounts of Methane and Nitrogen, but it may have clathrates of them deep down.

So, no, I don't know, but Ceres will have less gravity, I think, and if an ocean then a salty one like Pluto.  But it's crust must need to float on the salt ocean, maybe nearly that of the Great Salt Lake in amount of dissolved salts.

Anyway, Uranium and perhaps Boron could be dissolved in those oceans, so that was what I was after.  For Ceres, plenty of metals and perhaps some silicon can be had at the surface.  For Pluto you might want to hope to get them from what is dissolved in the ocean, or you have to import them.

Anyway, some notion of the scale of the possibility/problems.

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#1716 2024-05-21 19:52:40

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Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

Some further thinking about the last post, an attempt to create a portal between the surface of a world such as a Dwarf Planet, or an icy moon, and a subsurface salty ocean.

I am sure it is much easier to say than to do.

For the fluid I suggest at this point a mix of an alcohol and fresh water at a sub-freezing temperature to slow down or inhibit biological activity.  The fluid needs a specific gravity approximately similar to the ices which will remain outside of the shaft casings.

At some pressure the water ice outside may liquify even if below what we experience for the freezing point of water.  This happens below glaciers.  The preference would be to avoid that, so you need some fairly cold vodka-water mix.

So, I can identify a mix, but don't know what the freezing point for it is: https://bartenderly.com/tips-tricks/alc … sity-chart
Quote:

Alcohol density chart – the most comprehensive list …
Web53 rows · May 8, 2013 · Vodka (40%) 0.916: Absinthe: 0.89: Everclear (75%) 0.84: Everclear (95%) 0.80: Alcohol, pure (ethanol) 0.789

So, it looks like 40% Vodka / 60% water is 0.916, which I think is a good number to match water ice.

Freezing points of alcohol mixes? https://www.bing.com/search?q=Freezing+ … 70&pc=U531
Quote:

Global web icon
The Spruce Eats
https://www.thespruceeats.com/will-liquor-freeze-760302
What Is the Freezing Point of Alcohol? - The Spruce Eats
Water freezes at 32 degrees Fahrenheit (zero degrees Celsius), and the freezing point of pure ethanol alcohol is -173 degrees Fahrenheit (-114 degrees Celsius). Alcoholic beverages are a mixture of both alcohol and water (in some cases, sugars and other additives), which puts the freezing point of your alcoholic … See more

OK, not sure but I think that a suitable mix is possible.  If you have to put so much alcohol in that the mix gets too light, then you may be able to add some salt to make it heavier.

Now about the concerns about Methane and Nitrogen ice.  We know that at a sea bottom pressure Methane Clathrate can be stable, a few degrees above the freezing point of pure water.  So, near the surface for Methane it could be a problem, but once you got deep enough and kept the temperatures down Methane Clathrate could be stable.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nitrogen_ … atmosphere.
Quote:

Nitrogen clathrate or nitrogen hydrate is a clathrate consisting of ice with regular crystalline cavities that contain nitrogen molecules. Nitrogen clathrate is a variety of air hydrates. It occurs naturally in ice caps on Earth, and is believed to be important in the outer Solar System on moons such as Titan and Triton which have a cold nitrogen atmosphere.

It appears that large pressures are required for Nitrogen Clathrate.

Here we go Nitrogen Clathrate can be in ices on Earth, Titan, and Triton.  How about Mars?  Could ancient buried ice on Mars has Nitrogen Clathrates?

So, about liquid and solid phases of Nitrogen: https://www.thermopedia.com/content/979 … 3%20or%205.  Quote:

Nitrogen—(L. nitrum, Gr. nitron, native soda; genes, forming), N; atomic weight 14.0067; atomic number 7; melting point –209.86°C; boiling point –195.8°C; density 1.2506 g/1; specific gravity liquid 0.808 (–195.8°C), solid 1.026 (–252°C); valence 3 or 5.

It would be best to find ice that did not have much Nitrogen in it, I suppose, if such exists.  But more information will be needed on that.

I would say that the Nitrogen problem is not well enough understood.

But I am more encouraged that it could be done now, a portal between the surface of an ice world, leading to its oceans.  Cold and nasty, but perhaps robots could navigate it.

I would hope that the salts of the ocean would have substances of value such as Uranium and Boron, for Fusion to Hydrogen.  And I suppose other things.

I have had the thought that the way salt solutions work would it be possible to have a salt water nuclear reactor inside of these oceans?  Maybe not very active, but active enough to generate some more heat than just normal radioactive decay does.

Salts dissolve and precipitate, concentrate, segregate due to factors such as temperature and I suppose pressure as well, I am guessing.

https://phys.org/news/2023-02-radioacti … rnova.html
Quote:

Radioactive isotopes reach Earth by surfing supernova blast waves, scientists discover
by University of Hertfordshire

So, if Icy Dwarf Worlds, can receive these materials, and if they could develop a natural saltwater fission reactor, then can that help retain an ocean?  I have read that natural fission reactors have occurred perhaps on Earth and Mars, so could salt behaviors produce a concentrate of something like Uranium salts??? from dissolved water.

And if stars absorb fission products, then can that affect them?

Calliban has talked about some sort of fission/fusion processes.  Could that happen in a star such as a White Dwarf?

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#1717 2024-05-23 09:38:44

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Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

This is a skill that may be beneficial to the needs of humans beyond the Earth: https://phys.org/news/2024-05-finland-w … n-air.html


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#1718 2024-05-23 18:42:31

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Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

I have been pondering this for some time, for Asteroids: https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 01#p223501

Quote:

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Email
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=psyCWvavYt0

I have this today; it interests me also for asteroid mining.
Quote "How This Fusion Tech is Solving the Geothermal Energy Problem

Dr Ben Miles
237K subscribers

Join

Subscribe

"

Even rubble pile asteroids. 

More later.

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Last edited by Void (2024-05-23 18:43:52)


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#1719 2024-05-24 21:00:56

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Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

The question of what can be done with rocks/regolith, with microwaves?

So, we make rocks using concrete, and break rocks, using crushers, and rod and ball mills.

But I see that microwaves can be use to sinter or even melt rocks on the Moon, which may be in part a substitute for Concrete and kiln made bricks and mortar.  About sintering: https://ntrs.nasa.gov/citations/20220005023

And in the previous post we see about vaporizing rock and then turning it into dust.  But it is for a narrow drill shaft wave guide.

But I am wondering if we can get to the point of turning rocks into powered dust, and then using sintering to make that back into rocks.

Along the way and in between possibly to reduce the materials a bit to change their nature such as magnetism.

Magnetized dust, even if only weakly magnetic might be projected from a electromagnetic mass driver.  And it that case might be projected to a receiver.

I have mentioned ring receivers that may use centrifugal force and friction to receive the projected dust.

Post #1713 discusses such a device: https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 31#p223431
Quote;

This post from elsewhere was considered for Mercury, but I want to think of it for other worlds: https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 80#p223380
Quote:

l2mOXQT.png

The idea is to shoot fine materials from the surface of Mercury, to impact the cup-trough of the inner surface of the ring.

At first the surface will be abraded, but once you put a layer of dust or regolith or sintered tiles over it the metal would be protected.

Ceres, of course could be a target, or other smaller asteroids as well.  Mars may be a hard case, but maybe the mass driver notion could work from the mountaintops of Mars.

These methods probably use a lot of power but may be more suitable for in space methods.

Something to ponder and try to get to a place where it may make sense.

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#1720 Yesterday 11:28:15

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Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

OK, it seems to be about worlds, and rings for worlds, and matter manipulations.

-Calliban had a ring for an asteroid, but I don't believe that it had spin.

-Isaac Arthur has videos that include ring, ringworlds actually.  and those do tend to spin.

-This is a wiki about ringworld(s): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ringworld

-Space does already have rings such as those of Saturn: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ring_system

-My ring(s) has a centrifugal gutter matter catching method to it.
A representation of the basic concept is here: https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 26#p223526  Quote:

Post #1713 discusses such a device: https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 31#p223431
Quote;

This post from elsewhere was considered for Mercury, but I want to think of it for other worlds: https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 80#p223380
Quote:

l2mOXQT.png

The idea is to shoot fine materials from the surface of Mercury, to impact the cup-trough of the inner surface of the ring.

At first the surface will be abraded, but once you put a layer of dust or regolith or sintered tiles over it the metal would be protected.

Ceres, of course could be a target, or other smaller asteroids as well.  Mars may be a hard case, but maybe the mass driver notion could work from the mountaintops of Mars.

We can choose to liberalize the original idea to allow less centrifugal gravity in the gutter, and a deeper gutter with a "Pocket", and also a gutter(s) which does not circle the entire ring, but may have several or only one gutter and pocket capture method.

The gutter and pocket method would be a gutter target you would fling matter towards to intercept it and as the materials slides in the gutter it will encounter a pocket which can catch it.

While I have suggested adapting a microwave drill method to render to powder rocky materials, actually most airless worlds have a considerable amount of inherited dust materials that are of a fine texture, so that is low hanging fruit.

We could utilize metalysis to extract Oxygen and Metals, and Silica, but I want to shoot powder at the gutter receiver mechanism on a ring, so that is perhaps not the most economic method.  Carbon, CO, or Hydrogen can be used with heat to reduce the amount of Oxygen in dust, and so then in some cases bring it to have magnetic properties.  The results which would likely be CO2 and Water can be reprocessed to produce Carbon, CO, and Hydrogen.  Some dust will naturally have magnetite in it, but reducing the dust may enhance the magnetics of the dust.

A source of heat may be desired to help in the reduction process.  This could be an electric heat process or perhaps a solar process.  This has recently showed up: https://thedebrief.org/this-new-solar-p … -required/

So, not all worlds are of the same character, substances and sizes are different at least, and so it remains to figure out which worlds would work early on and often be of the best profit.

The first rings will be very expensive, and it is a chicken and egg thing, getting in the way.  Before building a full fledged ring, this might be tried: Ov9wLVR.png

A sort of a cross between a ring and space elevators.  This might be best suited to a significant asteroid of a smaller size.

So, here again a list of such asteroids: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_e … _asteroids
Quote:

List of exceptional asteroids

So, from my point of view, you would look for something that you could apply the dual gondola method to, and then start building a proper ring for that asteroid, and then using that ring start building rings for bigger and bigger asteroids, eventually even building rings for rather big worlds such as Mercury.

This could be very profitable in our solar system, but also the skill leaned it may be useful in other solar systems with worlds without thick atmospheres. (If such a travel were to become possible).

If Proxima 'd' and 'b' qualify they may become targets.

Proxima 'd': https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proxima_Centauri_d

I expect that these worlds may be volatiles at their poles or on a tidal locked dark side.

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#1721 Yesterday 14:33:34

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Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

So, the ring game might include space elevators, at least at the start.

Quote:

The first rings will be very expensive, and it is a chicken and egg thing, getting in the way.  Before building a full fledged ring, this might be tried: Ov9wLVR.png

A sort of a cross between a ring and space elevators.  This might be best suited to a significant asteroid of a smaller size.

So, here again a list of such asteroids: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_e … _asteroids
Quote:

List of exceptional asteroids

This crude drawing is perhaps a cross between Calliban's ring, and my notion of Lassoing a asteroid.

Various elaborations are possible.  You could have a ladder of Gondola's for various gravity levels.

Where you might start with a space elevator concept to move bulk materials to build up the rings and dependent gondolas, eventually you might get to a full gutter slide and pocket system to receive fine dust tossed to the receiver.

The question is where an ideal set of starter objects is and what is a sensible progression from small target to larger targets in a progression.

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#1722 Yesterday 20:08:21

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Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

I neglected to include a ring concept that I wanted in the last post:  https://newatlas.com/space/space-habitat-ring-plan/  Image Quote: ?url=http%3A%2F%2Fnewatlas-brightspot.s3.amazonaws.com%2F0c%2Fe7%2F1bf75795423681c18b5f25c5abfd%2Ffea-asteroid-base.jpg

But the method seems to not expect very large chunks of rock, and the process has no "Infancy" and "Childhood", that is metamorphic progressions.

And so even if my drawing was made in haste and is crude, I assert that it gives the potential of a metamorphic progression from a start though stages to a completion at some level:Quote:

The first rings will be very expensive, and it is a chicken and egg thing, getting in the way.  Before building a full fledged ring, this might be tried: Ov9wLVR.png

A sort of a cross between a ring and space elevators.  This might be best suited to a significant asteroid of a smaller size.

So, here again a list of such asteroids: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_e … _asteroids
Quote:

List of exceptional asteroids

But I don't think that the above method will suit large objects like the Moon or Mercury, but rather bite sized objects, perhaps preferred to be bigger than Phobos and Deimos, but not excluding them.  But I confess a rotating ring would be a bit different for such moons as they do not rotate at a high pace.

But looking at Phobos and Deimos, and the notion of microwave drilling, I am curious if it could be used on those two little moons.  We may have several potential productive results, maybe ice, maybe Hydrated minerals, or perhaps a Hydrogen cloud in the void space of the rubble pile.  And possibly some of the interior rocks may have special materials such as metals of value.

I think I will rest it for now.

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