New Mars Forums

Official discussion forum of The Mars Society and MarsNews.com

You are not logged in.

Announcement

Announcement: This forum is accepting new registrations by emailing newmarsmember * gmail.com become a registered member. Read the Recruiting expertise for NewMars Forum topic in Meta New Mars for other information for this process.

#1676 2024-03-22 17:42:17

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 7,376

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

An interesting question: http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 97#p220697

Really, I don't think I am called to do anything.  It just seems that better minds have already done the rough work, which gives hope of a method that seems probable.

The Moon is basically Oxygen bonded to metal ores.  Robots on the Moon are likely to be the big thing.  After local factories can be established on the Moon, not much more needs to go to the Moon.

Eventually Mass Drivers of some sort may be built to export materials in some way.

But before that a combustion process would be nice to have.

The Moon could be without people, and only robots, but I guess time may change that, over time, imported organic chemicals could make it a place to put a large human population.  That would be something that time will determine.

But in order to get to other worlds beyond the Moon, Lunar resources could be helpful.  Oxygen from the Moon is said to be cheaper to bring to LEO from the Moon than from the Earth.

https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.10 … -72694-6_4
Quote:

If Mars-bound vehicles could be fueled in LEO with H2 and O2 from the Moon, the required mass of Mars-bound vehicles to be delivered from Earth to LEO would be reduced to about 40% of the required mass if propellants were brought up from Earth. For example, a Mars-bound vehicle that weighs say, 250 metric tons in LEO when propellants are brought from Earth, if fueled by hydrogen and oxygen from the Moon would have a mass of only about 100 metric tons. This would have a huge impact on the feasibility of launching large Mars-bound vehicles.

To change that for Starship, travel to a Moon could be facilitated by Methane from Earth, and perhaps some Oxygen from the Moon to LEO.

Then the Starship would bring all its Methane and then be refilled much more with Oxygen from the Moon.

An Aluminum/Oxygen propellant method might be able to lift LOX to a low lunar orbit, perhaps for the refueling.

While futuristic methods of lifting mass to lunar orbit will be desired and perhaps eventually implemented, having the Aluminum/Oxygen combustion method would be more practical to implement in the beginning.

A robotic Moon with few people could do this as well: https://www.realclearscience.com/articl … 8540.html#!
Quote:

Energy from the Moon could also be transported back to Earth. Because only a handful of countries have the capacity to land a rover on the Moon, some scientists have suggested building minimal infrastructure on the Moon and focusing the majority of energy generation and transmission inside Earth’s orbit. Solar panels on the Moon could transmit electricity to satellites orbiting the Earth using microwave beams, the same technology that undergirds radar, and the solar panels themselves could be cheaper to build because they would not need to withstand weather events.

So, possible, maybe.  Even without huge numbers of people on the Moon.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-03-22 18:01:57)


Done.

Offline

#1677 2024-03-22 20:01:55

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 7,376

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

This is an interesting article: https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/technolo … r-AA1lhGpz  Quote:

Hydrogen Discovered In Moon Rocks Could Mean Big Things For Space Exploration
Story by Rob Rich • 3mo • 3 min read

An interesting read, it suggests the Hydrogen might be significant in the regolith of the Moon, which would be nice.

Done

Another article about Moon water: https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/technolo … r-AA1h0B4B  Quote:

Reconsidering the Origins of Water Found on the Moon
Story by Matt Hrodey • 6mo • 3 min read

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-03-22 20:36:42)


Done.

Offline

#1678 2024-03-23 11:13:26

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 7,376

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

So, my hackles are up again.  I have to fight down my conspiracy phobias.  Having to do with the Moon, I have seen recent articles that indicate that there may be no ice in the Lunar craters, as none was seen.  However, I suspect that levitated dust also collects in these craters, so ice could be really dirty, at least on the surface.  Or maybe there is little to none.

This water thing is potentially a point of manipulation, if my phobias of conspiracy could be true.  In the media we seen bipolar moods always.  New news articles can be justified periodically by swinging from one position to another.  Around 2020 was where the idea of ice on the Moon was prevalent.  Now I see articles about no ice on the Moon.  My just previous post is still favorable to water on the Moon.

My theory(s) of what is going on can be attached to suspicions of elitist sculpting of information to the masses, as one possibility.  There is a business of issuing certificates of authority.  An accredited organization can vouch for a person's worthiness to pose as authority.  A necessary thing more or less.  But not always accurate I suspect.  In any case the suspicion is that some of the Elites regard the average person as like a farm animal to be exploited.  Such persons, in my opinion leak into places like America from older cultures, although we breed them ourselves.  They like the idea of authoritarian governance.  So, the suspicion is that they do not want free people to go into space where they cannot enslave them.  So, then the degree of their power is not well measured at this point.  That is the dark suspicion.  And to some degree the American government may back them at times.  But not every part of the government and not all the time.

So, because I see the possibility that these people may try to lock down American in space for another 50 years, I want a Moon concept that can be largely divorced from the need for large quantities of water on the Moon.  And robotics can contribute to that.

So, then we already have a way to bypass any impediment that the enemies of free peoples can put in place to further enslave them.  Having this weapon in our tool kit, may cause the elites to not bother to try to use this slaving method of disinformation or exaggeration about the Moon.  So, we might be spared that stupidity.

So, I want a plan that is largely indifferent to the amount of water on the Moon.  Again, robots could do that.

That in place for the discovery of a dry Moon, we might review materials that may suggest a less dry Moon.

Questions that may matter:
Does the Moon seem to have water inside of it?
What about Argon that is developed in the deeps of the Moon, does it also collect in the shadowed craters?
Carbon.  Why is more Carbon seen around the Moon than expected?  Can that Carbon also collect in the Shadowed Craters?

So, the answers to the above questions might suggest a dry or not dry Moon.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-03-23 18:16:51)


Done.

Offline

#1679 2024-03-23 13:06:39

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 7,376

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

So, talking about the Moon, I ran into a discussion that indicates that the Moon had a very powerful magnetic field for some time.
https://www.sciencealert.com/scientists … e-the-moon
Quote:

We know not long after it formed, the Moon had a powerful magnetic field, which started to decline about 3.2 billion years ago. Such a magnetic field is generated by motion and convection in the core, so what the lunar core is made of is deeply relevant to how and why the magnetic field disappeared.

So, this may suggest that the Moon had some protection from the solar wind while it was outgassing.

If the Moon was created by a splash of molten Earth rock, then I do not think it so likely that all the Carbon and Water would have boiled off so quickly.  For one thing if the splash was in microgravity, then the bubbles which could have formed would have no gravity field to separate them from liquid rock.  And if the splash then merged into a big ball of liquid rock, the bubbles would have been crushed down, and to some degree dissolve back into the rock.

Then if having a magnetic field, the gasses from fire fountains would have had some protection from the solar wind.

If this is how the Moon formed, then I have to suppose that a fair amount of Carbon and Water could have been retained in the deeps of the Moon.

Granted, since then the surface has been cold and hot dried out at least on the surface.

And a lot of the surface materials have been shocked by impacts.

But what is down lower might be different in places.

This may support what I say to a degree: https://www.nasa.gov/solar-system/an-at … nar-water/
Quote:

An Atmosphere Around the Moon? NASA Research Suggests Significant Atmosphere in Lunar Past and Possible Source of Lunar Water

Quote:

The short-lived atmosphere — estimated to have lasted approximately 70 million years — was comprised primarily of carbon monoxide, sulfur and water. As volcanic activity declined, the release of the gases also declined. What atmosphere existed was either lost to space or became part of the surface of the Moon.

So, it is possible that for a little while the Moon could have had bodies of water, a water table, and maybe glaciers in some places, like Mars did.  So, then that could suggest that Hydrated Minerals could be found somewhere on the Moon.

I have seen suggestions that the Moon may have had atmospheres more than once.  https://cosmosmagazine.com/earth/earth- … ow%20today.
Quote:

Not that this lunar atmosphere would have persisted very long. Most of it would have been lost in about 70 million years, Kring and Needham calculate.

But in that interval – which may have occurred twice, once after each pulse of volcanism – the Moon wasn’t the airless expanse we know today.

So, a short period of time of relatively wet Moon might have also caused Carbon Dioxide to absorb into rocks as well.

So, just maybe there are veins of materials created in such a period of time that could be found on the Moon.  So, the Moon would not be entirely homogenous in nature.


Done

Last edited by Void (2024-03-23 13:25:39)


Done.

Offline

#1680 2024-03-23 18:18:23

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 7,376

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

Nice to see you here "JoshNH4H" smile  Been a long time.

Done


Done.

Offline

#1681 2024-03-24 11:47:57

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 7,376

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

Well, I was thinking to myself if we could make robots an "Invasive Species" on the Moon. 

I wanted to suppose a situation where humans managed to start such a process on the Moon, but then it had to sustain and grow itself, for some reason.  A Moon centric view.

I found this 5 year old video today.  I has a very interesting shovel process: https://www.bing.com/videos/riverview/r … &FORM=VIRE  Quote:

Building a lunar base out of Moon dust
YouTube
Verge Science
1.2M views
Sep 18, 2018

It is an interesting video.  But back to my thinking of a robot Moon, I was sort of going SciFi with my thinking.  That humans would still be able to communicate with the robots from Earth.  The purpose of the idea is to see if there were anyway to perpetuate and grow a 4 d pattern on the Moon.

We are 4 d more or less, perhaps there is more than that even.   A pattern(s) in the material that move though time, whatever time is.

Of if that Stings, "We are spirits in the material".  The we is not the material but the information remembered by us of us.  Our illusion of self, I guess.

So, then I don't think we will be isolated from actionary machinery on the Moon, but I wondered, how it could be done, to make materials have form, form that remembers it's previous self as we do think we do.

I have all day; I may come back.  I am hiding from a snowstorm that is more of a threat at this point than a fact.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-03-24 11:57:41)


Done.

Offline

#1682 2024-03-24 16:41:36

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 7,376

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

Well, this could help as it sort of disputes a dry Earth, that the Moon would have come from.  So, maybe a wet Earth, and so maybe a Moon with some water to begin with.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/technolo … r-AA1l6Din
Quote:

Earth may have had all the elements needed for life within it all along − contrary to theories that these elements came from meteorites
Story by Shichun Huang, Associate Professor of Earth and Planetary Sciences, University of Tennessee and Wenzhong Wang, Professor of Planetary Science, University of Science and Technology of China • 3mo • 3 min read

Done


Done.

Offline

#1683 2024-03-24 17:33:24

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 7,376

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

In post #1681, I said

Well, I was thinking to myself if we could make robots an "Invasive Species" on the Moon.

This is somewhat entertaining because many people will have attached notions to that phrase, with cast it as negative.  It would in fact be true, but for the Moon would it be a bad thing?  As far as we can expect, the Moon has no 4d matter on it.  And certainly, we have no evidence of 4d matter that can replicate patterns.

My observation on this is that someone who knows what has been assigned to the phrase "Invasive Species", may not have the ability to project what that would mean on the Moon.  It does not indicate that they are not able to learn, but it may indicate that they are not able or inclined to adapt a concept to a new situation.  They are locked into language to deal with reality.  They may not be able to think without language.

I'm not sure, just trying to comprehend this.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-03-24 17:40:24)


Done.

Offline

#1684 2024-03-25 09:36:08

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 7,376

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

What I think could be low hanging fruit, could be a one way Lunar Starship.
1) Prove that it can land and not topple.
2) Grow some sterilized mice in a life support chamber and observe them over their lifetimes, remotely.
3) Test Robot Prototypes.

A one-way ship would need less filling I expect, and its payload might be kept fairly light.  (That's an option not a requirement).

Decent treatment of the mice would be to have the option to terminate their lives by slow depressurization if it is determined that the mice are suffering too much.

Of course, some lab equipment would be needed to monitor what was going on with things like their bones and muscles, and weight.

A mouse life span is short anyway.  Up to 5 years I guess?  But I expect that it would be shortened by the low gravity.  As far as radiation I would think some protection could be available.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-03-25 09:41:07)


Done.

Offline

#1685 2024-03-27 11:47:16

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 7,376

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

I want to have another look at Mars now.  Calliban made an interesting post recently in another topic: http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 41#p220841
Quote:

Calliban
Member
From: Northern England, UK
Registered: 2019-08-18
Posts: 3,352
Email
This may be of interest.
https://www.nextbigfuture.com/2024/01/w … -2050.html

If an orbital mirror can be used to increase the surface temperature of Callisto by a modest amount, sublimation will produce a thin CO2 atmosphere.  Nanorods can then be released into the atmosphere, giving rise to a powerful greenhouse effect.  The source estimates that 1.5m tonnes of nanorods released each year into the Martian atmosphere, woukd be sufficient to warm the planet by 10K.  Maybe something similar would work for Callisto.

"Plan and prepare for every possibility, and you will never act. It is nobler to have courage as we stumble into half the things we fear than to analyse every possible obstacle and begin nothing. Great things are achieved by embracing great dangers."

I guess if something were to be done with Callisto, first it would be done for Mars.

A good greenhouse effect still could be improved with a broad mixture of gasses.  The article linked to suggests that the particle method would eventually evaporate more CO2 and some water.  The water would also increase the greenhouse effect.

This article discusses that: https://www.lpi.usra.edu/planetary_news … arly-mars/ Quote:

High-Altitude Clouds May Have Warmed Early Mars

I was pondering if splitting CO2 into CO and O2 could have any benefit.  I was looking at increasing the "Carrier Gas" Effect.  "Carrier Gasses" would be gasses that cannot condense on the Martian polar ice caps.  They may even have some greenhouse potential themselves, and they can carry heat around the planet to the poles by way of wind.

I looked it up and found that CO can be up to 12.5% before being explosive, here on Earth.  Of course it is a terrible poison to life that has Hemoglobin.  But Mars atmosphere is already poisonous in that fashion as there is some CO in it, along with about twice as much Oxygen.

We probably cannot obtain much more Nitrogen for Mars from its subsurface, and we are not yet ready to move Nitrogen from the outer solar system to Mars.  Nitrogen and Argon could be preferred "Carrier Gasses", but not much available.

CO and O2 however could function as "Carrier Gasses", but work has to be done to split CO2 molecules to enhance their presence in the Martian atmosphere.

This article discusses using a plasma method to split CO2 into CO and O2: https://www.science.org/content/article … xygen-mars

I stumbled on this today and will also use it in this post: https://chemistry.stackexchange.com/que … nhouse-gas  Quote:

As has been noted, ozone also initiates reactions that generate the highly chemically active oxidants, including hydroxyl. The lifetime of radiatively active methane in the atmosphere is determined by hydroxyl abundance. Carbon monoxide and methane are both sinks for hydroxyl, CO
being the more reactive of the two. Greater concentrations of carbon monoxide in the atmosphere lead to lesser concentrations of HO⋅
, which in turn lead to higher concentrations of methane.

So, if we expect greenhouse and other warming effects to bring water vapor into the atmosphere, CO may help Methane to be preserved and perhaps even evolve from UV lights effects, where CO and HO may react to create CH4 and perhaps Oxygen.

We might also hope to create Ozone:

CO
is not considered a primary (or significant) greenhouse gas due to the weak (but non-zero) absorption of energy in the infrared. However, it does increase global warming by reacting with certain chemical species in the atmosphere which in turn lead to an increase in concentration of primary greenhouse gasses, most notably methane and ozone (see final paragraphs cited below). Thus, it is not completely accurate to dismiss it as a contributing factor.

In our wildest dreams we might hope to produce a UV blocking Ozone layer but in lesser dreams we at least may hope to have a greenhouse effect with Ozone.

So, it is possible that increasing the amount of CO and as a result O2, might lead to the synthesis of Methan and Ozone in the Martian atmosphere, and those are both greenhouse gasses and they both block UV to some degree.

An even weirder notion would be to continue creating CO and O2 content until you could run some type of engine off of the mix, but that might cause the whole planet to blow up if not done correctly.

Anyway, a bit of new information on terraforming.

I think that a combination of methods would probably produce the best results.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-03-27 12:25:46)


Done.

Offline

#1686 2024-03-27 12:46:13

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 7,376

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

Borrowing from Dr. Johnson and being a Big Speculator (BS) smile I will think about wood for Mars:
http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 23#p220923
Quote:

If the ties were wood (not something you could use on Mars),  the thermal expansion coefficient is somewhere around 20 x 10^-6 in/in-F.  That would raise the change in gauge to near 0.2 in,  within what they have to accommodate on curves anyway.

I would hope to grow wood in synthetic gravity devices in the orbit of Mars.  Might as well start with an O'Neill Cylinder: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/O%27Neill_cylinder

I like it in this case because it does have mirrors and windows on its sides.

To make it plain though, I want to have fast rotating devices inside of slow rotating devices, so as to share radiation protection and perhaps to avoid gyroscopic effects of a negative type.

So, in an ideal world(s), the O'Neill Cylinder might only have the rotational gravity of Ceres if possible or more if necessary.
And if we were to have a Stanford Torus inside, I will need a vacuum chamber to be inside of: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanford_torus

The torus might have a pressure of 2/3 an atmosphere of N2/O2.
The Cylinder might have a pressure of 1/3 atmosphere of O2, maybe a bit lower.

The whole assembly(s) could be attached to a parent structure: https://www.sciencealert.com/could-huma … anet-ceres Quote: satellite-1.jpg

Most of the structure could be built from Phobos and Deimos, and perhaps from asteroid materials brought to Mars using ballistic capture.
If Phobos and Deimos have no Hydrogen, Hydrogen could be lifted from Mars, and combined with Oxygen from the two moons.
Nitrogen for the torus would likely have to come from Mars as well.  Some Nitrogen as fertilizers for the cylinder as well.

You could put tanks of water around here and there as additional radiation shielding, perhaps on the ends of the cylinder where needed.  Such tanks of water could be used for aquiculture also, either by piping light into them or by use chemical agriculture such as Acetate.
Acetate agriculture: https://www.snexplores.org/article/inno … ts-in-dark

The cylinder would not need as good radiation protection as the torus.

As the device will collect heat from the sunshine, and radiate infrared, various methods might be implemented to generate electricity from that process.  A simple method might be anti-solar cells on the outside of the cylinder walls.

https://oilprice.com/Alternative-Energy … anels.html

The wood products would be valuable on Mars, and also it might be possible to export energy to the surface of Mars using microwaves.
Also, some types of food might be grown more reliably in orbit than on the surface of Mars, dust storms and climate being a problem on the surface of Mars.  The lower gravity of Mars may allow this to be practical.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
On a planets surface.
Now that I think of it, why not heat a greenhouse with geothermal energy, and harvest electricity from that.  Also use Solar in the greenhouse.  Dump excess heat back down into the geothermal well when the sun was shining.

This would supply electricity around the clock without other means of energy storage.  And it might work very well in winters.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-03-27 13:25:15)


Done.

Offline

#1687 2024-03-27 21:09:26

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 7,376

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

Strangely and conveniently this article show up: https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/technolo … 864b&ei=11
Quote:

Phys.org
10K Followers
Newly discovered carbon monoxide-runaway gap can help identify habitable exoplanets
Story by Science X staff • 1mo • 3 min read

Quote:

On Earth, carbon compounds such as carbon dioxide (CO2), methane (CH4), and carbon monoxide (CO) play a crucial role in shaping the climate and biogeochemistry and could have contributed to the emergence of life.

It appears to be supportive of what I had in this recent post: #1685: http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 24#p220924

So, CO may be the magic potion to return Mars partially to its youth.

The OH molecules created by UV, can be reglued into Methane, and perhaps Ozone.  These may be beneficial to make Mars a better place as it might have been in its youth.

Calliban provided this link: https://www.nextbigfuture.com/2024/01/w … -2050.html
That is a very strong terraform method apparently. 

But in warming the planet, it will be possible that water vapor in the upper atmosphere will be disintegrated by UV light producing OH molecules.  I am not sure, but perhaps this process might also reduce the loss of gasses to the Solar Wind.

Also, I can imagine that CO in the upper atmosphere might even capture H+ from the solar wind.  (Maybe and that is a faint maybe).

But if it is desired to utilize the Hydroxyl formed by UV light shredding water vapor molecules, then rather than manufacturing the Methane, you might manufacture CO and O2, using plasma methods.  In that way the UV lights energy is tapped into.  You don't have to force H20 Molecules to split, the UV does it for you.

As I have said before Methane, and Ozone both block UV, I believe.

Here seems to be some support: https://www.remodelormove.com/which-gas … radiation/

Quote:

Yes, methane absorbs ultraviolet (UV) light12. UV light is part of the electromagnetic spectrum and includes light that has the most energy and the shortest wavelength, making it highly energetic and easily absorbed by greenhouse gases such as carbon dioxide, methane, and water vapor1. Methane can also absorb the infrared light that water vapor leaves behind, which contributes to its higher climate change potential2.

So, maybe a way to make the surface of Mars more habitable to primitive life like Cyanobacteria.

In addition to perhaps double the air pressure, and more moisture and a bit warmer, perhaps some added UV protection.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-03-27 21:38:13)


Done.

Offline

#1688 2024-04-04 07:55:10

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 7,376

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

I think that it is sensible that if spacecraft capable of attaining Mars will exist, then also at similar times, LEO infrastructure would be established, and also some activities on the Moon.

I am interested in other people's visions of what may come.  This is simply a viewing of another person's ideas: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WZN2xXMb28g
Quote:

How To Develop The Moon ALL PARTS

AnthroFuturism
1.87K subscribers

Boston Metal is mentioned in the video: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boston_Metal

I deviate from the Video, as I feel that robots would be a better way to start off to develop the Moon.  You could have some/occasional humans, but life support and protection for a large crew of humans, imposes a heavy burden.

Robots would require less protection on a startup situation.

Housing for robots would likely need less protection from radiation.

Also, a robot startup would be able to hibernate during lunar nights.  I like the idea of nuclear reactors, but at the south pole, almost continuous sunlight is possible to tap. 

Blue Alchemist, allows to make solar panels in a manner similar to Boston Metal.  You might have the extra Iron though to do what is suggested in this video, but at a different rate.

His idea of a transit ship for LEO<>Moon does make sense.  There are going to be a very large number of new engines, not just raptors.
Vaporized Uranium engines?  Well OK, I don't know much about that.

The ideas are interesting though.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-04-04 08:03:58)


Done.

Offline

#1689 2024-04-04 10:06:42

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 7,376

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

As it happens Isaac Arthur produced a nice video which might relate to my previous post to a degree: https://nebula.tv/videos/isaacarthur-cl … from-space
Quote:

Clean Energy From Space
Video published:
Mar 31, 2024
Nebula First

I would like to consider associating a solar power plant with large scale human habitations in space, so I may post about that later.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-04-04 10:08:38)


Done.

Offline

#1690 2024-04-04 18:16:18

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 7,376

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

YvlPyPM.png

The above is a rough idea.  'B' is a very low g rotor that is a partial sphere.

'C' is much like this: aVRmdI8.png

There could be many instances of the 'C' structure attached to the perimeter of the "Eyeball".  See this topic for further description: https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=10740

My objective here is to create a power plant that works by dumping waste heat to the universe from a "Greenhouse", (Eyeball), that gives photo life support.

It is a baby idea so don't drop it on its heat because if it not perfect.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-04-04 18:23:09)


Done.

Offline

#1691 2024-04-05 11:08:39

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 7,376

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

Per the previous post, I am not certain that that path is a best way.

But I am interested in investigation of it.

The combination of windows and mirrors, may intercept some wavelengths of light for some purpose, by various methods, might generate electricity at those locations.

But such a machine might have internal lights or chemical methods to grow crops.

Some of these notions seem like they might lead to interesting life styles in space.

But enough for now.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-04-05 11:11:08)


Done.

Offline

#1692 2024-04-13 10:11:29

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 7,376

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

Dr. Johnson was good enough to give some guidance in a post: https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 98#p221698
Quote:

GW Johnson
Member
From: McGregor, Texas USA
Registered: 2011-12-04
Posts: 5,438
Email Website
Void:

You said "get to Mars orbit",  so I am interpreting that you want to examine some sort of orbit-to-orbit ship that is propelled with electric propulsion.  An orbit-to-orbit design is certainly a feasible notion for electric propulsion.  The escape from Earth is 4-5 months spiralling out,  meaning you are exposed for months to hard radiation transiting the Van Allen belts.  The arrival at Mars is a couple of months spiralling-in,  with no radiation belts to worry about.  The return to Earth is similar:  a couple of months spiralling-out from Mars,  and 4-5 months spiralling-in at Earth.

Note that I did NOT invoke any aerobraking at either end of the journey.  Such would be feasible and perhaps attractive for returning to Earth,  although the vehicle design is greatly complicated by the need to have a full entry-capability heat shield.  Such is not so feasible for arriving at Mars,  because the upper atmosphere density varies erratically by factors exceeding 2 at entry-type altitudes.

You must be prepared to make some sort of arrival burn than constitutes the majority of the dV,  should the densities be factor-2 lower than you expected.  And electric propulsion cannot do that job,  it has to be conventional rocket at quite high thrust,  because time is of the essence.  If you fail to slow,  you are literally lost in space.

I will say this in addition:  it has to be a full capability heat shield!  You cannot sidestep that by "skimming" through the upper atmosphere,
because you WILL NOT get any appreciable deceleration!  You WILL get full entry heating before you penetrate deep enough to get the necessary deceleration.  You can see this in a simple direct entry:  the peak heating pulse always precedes the peak deceleration pulse!

You can use a space tug to shorten the spiralling-out/spiralling-in times at Earth,  and/or at Mars.  I have looked at that. The tug cannot give you the full escape dV from LEO,  its max speed must be a tad lower than escape,  to stay in an elongated elliptical orbit for practical recovery and reuse.  The minority of the escape dV must come from the orbit-to-orbit vehicle,  but if electric,  that's very little propellant,  really.  And the spiral-out time from that condition is much shorter,  too.

The same arguments apply at Mars,  although the infrastructure to operate a tug there would have to be put into place first.  Such tugs could be nuclear or chemical.  I've looked at that,  too.

GW

Last edited by GW Johnson (Yesterday 15:12:43)

GW Johnson
McGregor,  Texas

My response was: https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 06#p221706
Quote:

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 7,041
Email
Dr. Johnson,

Thank you for giving me this useful information.  I am very interested in orbit to orbit with various methods.
I seems to me that between the NASA-Lockheed Martin devices and SpaceX, some interesting things might be done.

I seems to me that with these tools, Mars activities might be divided into 3 parts.
1) Initiation.  In this case you do not yet have resources from the surface to give to the effort, so you have to develop them.
2) Bulk Cargo transfers.
3) People moving.  Immigrants, not professionals space crews.

I want to explore #2 at this time.  Bulk Cargo transfers.  What I will suggest cannot so much be done until #1 is reasonably complete, and you probably have to have some very professional people involved as well in #1, #2, and #3.

From post #1814, Quote:

1) Nuclear Thermal, probably with Hydrogen.
2) "Jetson", which is nuclear electric.
3) Nuclear power plants to land on the Moon.

If you are doing robotic transfers, then you may only need the "Jetson" device, coupled with a Starship.  You don't need to be concerned about the Van Allen Belts.

So, I suggest modifying that Starship to be compatible with a "Jetson" device.
-Perhaps the Header Tanks can be removed.
-And do not load any Methane or Oxygen to the ship.  Perhaps put a propellant into a Starship tank though, perhaps Argon.

I believe that Elon Musk thinks it would be nice to have a major settlement on Mars by 2050.  So, there is plenty of time for this assembly to spiral to Mars and down to a low orbit.  Perhaps bring a lot of extra cargo along, too much to put in the cargo compartment.  Strap some of it to the leeward side of the Starship.

There should be a propellant depot in orbit of Mars with Methane, Oxygen, and perhaps Argon kept on board.  It also should have heat shield repair services.  Now disconnect the "Jetson" device and also the external cargo.  Fill the Starship with Methane and Oxygen, sufficient to land.

Also perhaps connect some "One-Time" landing legs onto the Starship.  These legs could have ablative and perhaps where needed active cooling heat shield methods.

Land the ship if you can and unload the cargo.

So, far, the story is that most Starships will stay on Mars as habitat and materials for resources.  But this may be a Ship that could fly to orbit perhaps 5 times or more, I am guessing, with minor maintenance.  If it does not pass examination, then it can be grounded.  When it launched to orbit it may leave its landing legs behind as materials to make resources out of.

Each time it would fly to orbit it could carry Methane, Oxygen, and Argon to the propellant depot.  Each time it was at the propellant depot, it could have its heat shield examined and repaired.  Also, perhaps new landing legs put on it.

If a Starship crashes, then it becomes scrap materials.  Hopefully it would not damage anything on the ground.  Eventually statistics might indicate how many times a Starship should be used before retiring it to use, perhaps as habitat and factory space.

The previous story I am aware of was that you landed them and then they usually stayed planted as things to repurpose or recycle.  This, I think makes more sense because you may well have a perfectly good tool that can have reuses before being retired.

As for the legs, if they are not used as scrap, perhaps they can be refurbished and sent to orbit in a launching Starship.  Presumably new heat shielding would be added to them.

This process should be less dangerous than coming in from interplanetary space.  Coming from Low Martian Orbit should be a slower speed, and it should be possible to have extra propellants on board for the landing so that you don't have to land, "Running on fumes", so to speak.

I will be happy to have input on this if you have the time and patience for it.

Done.

Last edited by Void (Yesterday 20:32:26)

Done.

The items:

1) Nuclear Thermal, probably with Hydrogen.
2) "Jetson", which is nuclear electric.
3) Nuclear power plants to land on the Moon.

These are all pointed to the Moon at least.

The "Jetson" electric propulsion would be benefited if Argon can be gotten from the Moon.  It can come from Earth, but also perhaps from the Moon and Mars.

About Argon: https://www.spacedaily.com/reports/Argo … ve%20rocks.  Quote:

Argon is a noble gas that gives a nice blue glow to some fluorescent light tubes. We know it's on the Moon. Rock samples from the Apollo missions held traces of argon, which is produced by the decay of radioactive rocks.

There's no reason why argon shouldn't be at the poles, but there is reason to suggest that there could be more of it there than elsewhere. The polar regions are very cold, as NASA's Lunar Reconnaissance Orbiter recently discovered. In fact, the poles could be the coldest places in our solar system!

Temperatures are so low that argon would be frozen solid. This could help these regions to retain more argon than the hotter regions of the Moon, because argon gas escaping from rocks over a long period could simply freeze in place. Admittedly, radioactive decay produces heat as well as trace gases, but the gas could percolate upwards from hot, underground areas and reach the colder surface.

It might be possible to drill for Argon on the Moon, as it results from radioactive decay.

Earth Argon would be more important, but Moon Argon would be helpful.

It may exist in the polar cold craters, perhaps along with some water ice.

In my reply to Dr. Johnson, I suggested a bulk cargo method for sending stuff to Mars.  I think that could be modified to include the Moon.

The steps could be:
1) Launch a Starship to LEO, by its own means.
2) Go to a depot and purge the Oxygen Tank and fill it with Argon.
3) Refill the Methane.
4) Use "Jetson" (Nuclear Electric), to move the Starship to a Lunar proximity.
5) Connect to a depot and drain the Methane from the Starship into the Depot.
6) If you have Lunar Argon in the Depot, then fill one or two propellant tanks with as much Argon as is needed to travel to a Mars orbit.
7) If hardware that could be useful for Mars could have been manufactured on the Moon, load that onto the Starship/Jetson assembly.
8) Send the robotic Starship/Jetson to a Mars orbit.
9) At Mars orbit, connecting to depot, unload any remaining Argon from the tanks, and put it into the depot.
10) Tank up on enough Methane and Oxygen, from the depot to do a landing on Mars.
11) At the depot, repair the heat shield if necessary, and if not present attach a one-time use set of landing legs with thermal protection.
12) Land and unload cargo.  Then tank up on the desired amount of Methane and Oxygen and go back to orbit.
13) At the depot again, load more cargo, and then perhaps deliver some Methane and Oxygen, maybe Argon to the depot.
14) Land again, and unload cargo, and tank up on Methane, Oxygen, and perhaps Argon.
15) Repeat, until it is calculated that the ship is reaching its expiration limits.
16) Try to land the ship and convert it to useful resources on the surface of Mars.

For this system a Moon base would only supply Argon, if it is available and also manufactured hardware.  You might say that it would be better to manufacture the hardware on Mars, and that is the desire, but until Mars gets boot-strapped up, the Moon can be a place to manufacture some heavy goods that could be built by robots on the Moon.  Such robots may be in communication with humans on the Moon and also the Earth.

This system would normally not involve the travel of humans in it.  That would be a separate method that can be more protective of humans.  Protecting them from the space environment.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-04-13 10:52:24)


Done.

Offline

#1693 2024-04-13 15:42:29

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 7,376

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

OK, I seem to have found a path to the Angry Realms: https://www.youtube.com/c/TheAngryAstronaut
This is one I was looking for yesterday: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v7s2X9HO-vU
Quote:

A new, nuclear powered plan to put humans on Mars from NASA and Lockheed Martin!!

The Angry Astronaut
133K subscribers

I guess I am tunneling to another topic again: https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 87#p221787
Quote:

Index» Terraformation» Para Terra formation in Orbit, with orbital services.   Post #28.

People are much more likely to live underwater on Mars than in domes, I think.  Or rather live in underwater "Domes".

I did not think that highly of nuclear in the past, but I do now.

Here then are more materials by way of a topic tunnel: https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 86#p221686
Quote:

Index» Human missions» Starship is Go..  Post #1814.

I feel that this item is of particular interest in establishing farms on Mars:

3) Nuclear power plants to land on the Moon.

The bulk of underwater agriculture would be driven by chemicals, but you could still have green plants growing in some locations.
While domes on Mars are usually thought to contain air, they might sit on the bottom of a cold body of water, but have warm water in them and a bit of air as well.

Just like Earth then Mars can start its biosphere in the water and later extend it above.

Tital and other worlds might do this as well.

Bazar as it may seem, it might be that with enough energy, the atmosphere of Pluto could be expanded to be suitable also, like Titan.  I am not sure it could be retained very well though, but perhaps.  An artificial magnetic field would work better than for Mars, as the solar wind id attenuated at that distance.

Then there is Eris: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eris_(dwarf_planet)

Perhaps Triton, the moon of Neptune?


Done

Last edited by Void (2024-04-13 15:59:00)


Done.

Offline

#1694 2024-04-13 17:09:53

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 7,376

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

So, to build an oceanic nuclear Mars, at first fuel would come from Earth.

But this offers some hope to extract Uranium that is dissolved in water: https://www.ansto.gov.au/news/promising … ong%20time.  Quote: 

Promising material provides a simple, effective method capable of extracting uranium from seawater

 

Key Points
Uranium can be extracted from seawater simply and effectively using a new material

Adding neodymium to layered double hydroxides (LDHs) improved their ability to capture uranium selectively

Multiple techniques at ANSTO clarified the octahedral coordination environment, oxidation state and adsorption mechanism

An Australian-led international research team, including a core group of ANSTO scientists, has found that doping a promising material provides a simple, effective method capable of extracting uranium from seawater.

The research, published in Energy Advances and featured on the cover, could help in designing new materials that are highly selective for uranium, efficient, and cost-effective.

EnergeryAdv-Cover Uranium from seawater
Research featured on the cover of Energy Advances
Uranium is a highly valued mineral used as a fuel source in nuclear reactors around the world.

“There's a lot of uranium in the oceans, more than a thousand times more than what is found in the ground, but it's really diluted, so it's very difficult to extract. The main challenge is that other substances in seawater, salt and minerals, such as iron and calcium, are present in much higher amounts than uranium,” explained lead scientist Dr Jessica Veliscek Carolan, who supervised co-author honours student Hayden Ou of UNSW with Dr Nicolas Bedford of UNSW.

First author was Muhammad Zubair of UNSW. One of the co-authors, Bijil Subhash received a grant from the Australian Institute of Nuclear Science and Engineering (AINSE) to support his research at ANSTO.

Layered double hydroxides, materials that have attracted interest for their ability to remove metals, are fairly easy to make and can be modified to improve the way they work.

Because these layers have positive and negative charges, they can be tailored to capture specific substances such as uranium.

Lanthanide dopants, neodymium, europium and terbium, were tested.  Adding neodymium to layered double hydroxides (LDHs) improved their ability to selectively capture uranium from seawater, a highly challenging process that scientists have been working on for a long time.

Synthesised materials were characterised using a variety of techniques, including Scanning transmission electron microscopy (STEM) and scanning electron microscopy (SEM) at ANSTO’s microscopy facility by Dr Daniel Oldfield and at UNSW by Yuwei Yang.

When neodymium was added to LDHs (MgAlNd), these materials chose uranium over ten other more abundant elements found in real seawater.

Importantly, the experiments were undertaken under seawater-like conditions.

A  crucial finding was that the dopant, neodymium, changes the way uranium binds to the LDHs.

The research team also used X-ray absorption spectroscopy (XAS) and Soft X-ray spectroscopy at ANSTO’s Australian Synchrotron to clarify the octahedral coordination environment, oxidation state and adsorption mechanism, respectively. They were assisted by Instrument scientists Dr Jessica Hamilton and Dr Lars Thomsen, co-authors of the paper.

X-ray measurements showed that under seawater conditions, the removal of uranium occurred through a process where uranium atoms formed complexes on the surface of LDHs by replacing nitrate ions in the LDH layers with uranyl carbonate anions from the seawater.

By adding neodymium and other lanthanide elements to the LDH structure, the chemical bonding between metal atoms and oxygen in the LDH became more ionic.

This improved ionic bonding made these materials much better at selectively binding to uranium via ionic surface interactions.

The authors pointed out that the study demonstrated a way to adjust how well a material can capture uranium which could lead to creating new materials that are even better at separating uranium from other substances.

The materials were not just useful for taking uranium from seawater but also had the potential to clean up uranium from radioactive wastewater near nuclear power plants.

“There are additional benefits in that these materials are simple and inexpensive to make, making them a cost-effective choice for large-scale uranium extraction,” said Dr Veliscek Carolan.

DOI: https://doi.org/10.1039/d3ya00154g

Scientists
Dr Jessica Veliscek Carolan
Dr Jessica Veliscek Carolan
+61 2 9717 7251
jvc@ansto.gov.au
Dr Nicolas Bedford (UNSW)
Dr Nicolas Bedford (UNSW)
n.bedford@unsw.edu.au
Dr Lars Thomsen
Dr Lars Thomsen
+61 435 010 085
larst@ansto.gov.au
Dr Jessica Hamilton
Dr Jessica Hamilton
+61 3 8540 4297
hamiltoj@ansto.gov.au

Of course, then you need "neodymium": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neodymium

The oceans that may have existed on Mars suggest where they could be rebuilt today: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mars_ocean_theory
Image Quote: 350px-MarsTopoMap-PIA02031_modest.jpg   Quote:

The blue region of low topography in the Martian northern hemisphere is hypothesized to be the site of a primordial ocean of liquid water.[1]

If you want to enlarge the image, then right click it and select "Magnify Image".

It appears that the Rift Valley could have ocean in it down the line some time.

I would not build a single ocean, but partition it with permafrost dams.  You would not have to build the permafrost dams, they already may exist.  You simply do not melt the permafrost in an area where a dam is to be kept.

Most terraform plans try to heat from the top down.

I will think I might coin a phrase, "Tucking Heat" into permafrost.  That will be more efficient, and then the lakes and seas produced will be radiators.

At first heat may come from reactors imported from Earth, and the hopefully nuclear fuel will be extracted from "Sea Water" on Mars to make more such reactors.

Then solar(surface), and solar(orbital), and Fusion may be added if the technologies are practical to use.

Elon Musk has said that the city on Mars may extend a mile down (km down?).  These lakes and seas would mostly be shallow, and you could have tunnels and vaults under them.  Typically, these bodies of water may be covered in ice, and perhaps the ice be protected by soil or built materials.

For the south hemisphere, likely ice could be melted so that it can flow into the basins to form such seas.  Hellas could be one such place.

Using permafrost dams, then each lake or sea could have its own level, so that you could spread the water and ice over a larger land area than might be true for a singular sea or ocean.

I am not sure, but one way to "Tuck Heat" into the permafrost would be to beam it down from orbit as microwaves.  You could have the antenna on top of the ice.  But some microwaves might actually penetrate into the water and warm the water that way.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-04-13 17:40:20)


Done.

Offline

#1695 2024-04-14 01:22:17

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 7,376

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

In this post, partly based on what Dr. Johnson has said I described a shipping chain method to get bulk goods to Mars: https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 55#p221755   Post #1692.

Dr. Johnson has some interesting ideas about the exploration and setup phase for Mars, where professionals are the ones who go to Mars in small numbers.

But a third thing is needed, an "Immigrant Pathway".

Perhaps that could involve a Thermal Nuclear Rocket boost from LEO quickly through the Van Allen Belts with immigrants.  The conditions would be crowded but the trip would be quick.  The ship would arrive at a Moon proximate situation.  The ship would be joined to a much larger ship in a Moon proximate position largely built of Moon materials.  This ship would be less crowded.

The process of post #1692 would include the transit of cargo ships to Moon proximity, with a cargo of Methane and perhaps Argon.  These would be Nuclear Electric ships in part, but still include a full Starship in them.  Methane would be proximate to the Moon therefore, and Oxygen could be manufactured on the Moon.  This may provide a situation where a Moon Ship would refill Methane in a Moon proximate location and Oxygen on the surface of the Moon.  It would be a ship(s) that repeatedly travels Moon Proximate<>Moon Surface.  These ships could bring up materials to build deep spaceships from for immigrants.  It is hoped that Argon would be the propellant for the propulsion to get the immigrant ships to Mars orbits.  This has been referred to as "Jetson" in post #1692.  The immigrant ships would have to have enough life support method for the trip.

Probably a "Jetson" immigrant assembly could include a Starship, the "Jetson" propulsion method, and an Expansion Ship.
The "Expansion Ship" would have been built mostly from Lunar materials.

So then that assembly being bulky, there is some radiation protection just from bulk.  If you had a ball of 100 humans and a ball of 1000 humans, then the humans in the 1000 bundle would be better protected from radiation, the bodies of each human sheltering the others to some degree.  But of course, also involved would be the large bulk of the Immigrant Ship composed of a Starship, a Jetson, and an expansion ship.  And you would have storm shelters.

What to do when arriving at Mars?
1) The Starship is put into service, including being filled with Methane and Oxygen to land with.  Methane and Oxygen would be from the Martian surface.  It could bring most of the immigrants to the surface of Mars with repeated trips Up and Down from orbit.
2) The expansion ship could be added to other expansion ships to make large orbital habitats.  A number of people might be in those, and it is possible that materials from Phobos/Deimos/Mars could be processed in such devices.
3) What about the nuclear reactors of "Jetson"?  Well, they could be distributed to the orbital habitats as power sources, the orbital habitats may include method to beam microwave power down to Mars.

But also, it may be that there would be a way to drop these reactors down to the Martian surface, with a starship, and robots not too sensitive to the hazards of the task.

From post #1693:

OK, I seem to have found a path to the Angry Realms: https://www.youtube.com/c/TheAngryAstronaut

As for an Expansion Ships nature, perhaps we could start with this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7l12cNKvXak
Quote:

SpaceX prepares to launch the first stainless steel space station! Built by Airbus!!

The Angry Astronaut
133K subscribers

Reference, metal printer: https://www.airbus.com/en/newsroom/stor … to-the-iss

Reference, Starlab: https://spacenews.com/starlab-commercia … -starship/

So, if you could build Starlab clones mostly from Lunar materials, they could be put into Lunar Starships and lifted to a Lunar Proximate location.

The clones lifted to a Lunar proximate orbit would then be finished off with furnishings from the Earth where necessary.

A hope is that large amounts of Argon could be gotten from the Moon as propellants.

Well anyway, a people mover would be composed of many "Starlab" clones joined together.  A Starship would bring a large number of crowded people to the assembly and the Starship would be joined to the assembly.  The people would be distributed though the assembly.
A Nuclear-Electric "Jetson" would then be joined to the assembly, and it would set off for Mars orbits.

Relativity Space 3D printers: https://www.relativityspace.com/

So, if you set up a production line on the Moon, you could clone a Starlab type module that could go into a Lunar Starship to launch to an orbit.  Once you had the method to build one, then you might be able to move to mass production.  The production would likely generate a lot of Oxygen for propellants.  If you had Methane deliveries from Earth, or maybe Mars, you then could lift these modules to orbit and join together into an "Extension Ship".

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-04-14 02:24:50)


Done.

Offline

#1696 2024-04-14 09:55:51

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 7,376

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

In the previous post I suggested a factory(s) on the Moon to prefab modules that could be lifted to a Moon proximate location by Starship.

Once set up this would be a repetitive exercise done primarily by robot labor with some human intervention/oversight as needed.

I implied that the prefab modules could be used to make space stations in the orbit of Mars and to also, in part, make the immigrant ships.

But in fact, since the prefab modules will fit in the Starships, you could land them on Mars as well.

There is an inclination to say, "Well why not make them on Mars instead of the Moon"  Well, Mars is expected to have a labor shortage, and unlike the Moon, Mars has a more intermittent solar power potential.  This is true for all types of solar except Martian orbital solar.

The Earth would have abundant virtual labor in humans and computers, that could assist in a robot factory setup on the Moon.  The Moon is closer to the sun than Mars so solar is better, and so, the "Why Not?" can apply.

While the Starlab is to be of Stainless Steel, I am wondering if perhaps a different alloy could be used from Moon materials.  Using Metalysis on the Moon, to create the materials for the prefab modules will yield Oxygen as propellant that the robots do not need to consume.

https://metalysis.com/

While Methane originally may come from the Earth, perhaps it could come from other places such as Mars and the moons of Mars.

So, once you got this prefab machine(s) up and running you might assemble "Extension Ships" suitable to travel to many places in the solar system.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-04-14 10:19:34)


Done.

Offline

#1697 2024-04-14 11:41:14

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 7,376

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

I think it is likely that both nuclear and solar will be developed broadly across the solar system over time.

Calliban in the past has pointed out the value of heat sinks.  So then Mars and Titan can be high on the list of worlds of interest.

It may be that some moons such as Callisto and Ganymede can be modified for this, and Triton, and some of the dwarf planets.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-04-14 11:42:54)


Done.

Offline

#1698 2024-04-14 16:58:40

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 7,376

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

I have had another look at seaweeds, particularly Antarctic ones.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-63785575

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/scie … 34345.html

https://earthsky.org/earth/seaweed-colo … ntarctica/

I have no proof that they utilize Acetate and Oxygen but suspect that they may.

So far, yeast, Mushrooms, and algae seem to be able to do that, but I presume those are tiny algae.  My hope is that the big ones can also.

My thinking that the polar areas are where it is more likely to be true is that both sea ice and the dark of winter may provoke them to do that to survive, to extract chemicals from the seawater.  Acetate and Oxygen perhaps.  But also, it could be that they may use Hydrogen, Methane, and CO as fuels as well.  This could be important for Mars farming if it is true.

The light must be rather attenuated at 100 meters, so these organisms might very well use such methods year around to get energy, as the small algae may dump Oxygen into the water for them to breath.

Such very cold water might house domes where warmer water could exist.  But living things could be on the domes.

If macroalgae have the property of chemosynthesis, then for Mars the generation of the chemicals they would need to promote their growth, along with a pinch of light.

I have speculated, but it might be true.  It could make evolutionary sense for these macroalgae to have such an ability.

And we have microbes that "Eat Air", so perhaps also there may be organisms in the ocean that eat dissolved gasses such as Hydrogen, Methane, and CO.  Certainly, those will be in the water.

About air eaters: https://newatlas.com/biology/air-eating … ica-artic/

If this ability exists then these organisms might be farmable on Mars, where long periods of darkness might occur both seasonally and from dust storms.  And as they may not need too much light, it may even be practical to nourish them a bit with artificial or piped in light.

This again talks about acetate in the Ocean.

As for Hydrogen, Methane, and CO, (And even Oxygen), there could be many ways these would be generated in the Ocean.

Natural Hydrogen can occur with the Oxidation of Iron, perhaps in volcanic rock.  It is apparent that Methane somehow seeps out of "Methane Seeps" in the ocean bottom.  CO and Oxygen might result from radiolysis.  So, our biosphere is likely a bit chemosynthetic and not only based on the sun.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_hydrogen

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cold_seep
So Cold Seeps may emit both Methane and Hydrogen Sulfide.  So, Hydrogen Sulfide may go on the list as well.

Methane Seep: https://www.usgs.gov/news/state-news-re … scientists
Quote:

“This methane activity plays a significant role in oceanic cycling of carbon, and forms the basis for an amazing vast ecosystem, fueled, not from the sun’s energy, as most life on Earth’s surface is, but from chemosynthetic communities of bacteria. The Atlantic margin is home to hundreds of these widely distributed seeps that support these unique communities.”

There may not be use of these chemicals in Macroalgae, but I am hoping that there is.

Some filter feeders can use them.

Some animals feed on microbes that use the gasses, and some actually host microbes in their bodies that can utilize the chemicals.
https://www.whoi.edu/know-your-ocean/oc … 20microbes.

Drifting a bit out of topic, Bladderwort, are carnivorous plants.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utricularia
I believe that they are vascular plants.  While they may not consume chemicals from the water they may consume microbes that consume chemicals: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utricularia

Quote:

Carnivory becomes an essential survival strategy in nutrient-poor situations. Bladderworts have adopted this strategy, taking advantage of the chance to receive organic nitrogen, phosphorus, and extra carbon in addition to what they may get via photosynthesis.

I thought the carnivorous plants only get nutrients from eating creatures, but they seem to get Carbon, perhaps as calories?

Although they may have some uses, they are not necessarily a farm crop.  But along with other vascular plants that returned to water, they may have returned to the ability to extract chemicals from the water.  If so then that might be transferable to our garden food crops.

On the other hand perhaps Bladderwort could be bioformed to become a useful crop.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2024-04-14 17:45:37)


Done.

Offline

#1699 2024-04-15 11:11:50

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 7,376

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

Sort of a review of previously done stuff.  I just want a quick item today, at this time: kL6jpCg.png

I have stored some interesting links in post #1 of this topic: https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=10144

Here are some:
Dealing with UV light on Mars: (Post #1563)
This reference which discusses a 3 layer plastic inflatable dome method, includes materials from SeaDragon:

Another UV reference:

At any rate the outer dome in the drawing may be protected by the methods SeaDragon indicated, and by not having Oxygen either inside it or at more than trace levels outside of it.

The surface water could have ice on it which may help block some UV light which may protect the inner dome, and the dark blue water content from some of the UV.

Quote:

Unlike metals, floating ions pass right over plastic materials without any negative effects. All plastics are inherently resistant to all salts. Plastics are chemically inert, so salt can not corrode plastics as it does metal and scale is less likely to build up.
How Well Do Metals and Plastics Stand Up to Salts, Brine or Seawa…
www.corzan.com/en-us/blog/how-well-do-metals-and-plastics-stand-up-to-salts-brine-or-seawater-1
www.corzan.com/en-us/blog/how-well-do-metals-and-plastics-stand-up-to-salts-…

So salty water likely can be tolerated.

Another protection for this system would be to have a "Draped" plastic film over the outer dome.  Doing that then that sheet could be changed out periodically when it yellowed or was excessively damaged by the Martian environment.  The sheet removed could be recycled into something else.

While I have provided for water radiators by having ice covered reservoirs as the radiators, those would not easily allow light in.  This system, it is hoped would allow light in and yet they could be used as radiators for a heat engine, particularly the upper water between the two domes.

Done

Time to do something responsible like cleaning up the house.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-04-15 11:35:29)


Done.

Offline

#1700 2024-04-16 11:00:24

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 7,376

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

Farming Macroalgae, is of interest for several worlds, in my opinion.

I suppose it could merit a topic of its own.

It could be done a bit differently than Nemo's gardens: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nemo%27s_Garden_(Noli)
Image Quote: 220px-Nemo%27s_Garden_1.jpg

Air filled underwater bubbles are interesting, but what about water filled ones?  With controlled environments within.  This will likely involve plastics, and of course the scientific community it going off about that like crazy.

They may be correct that it is a problem but it is becoming very suspected that some of this is social manipulation.  The desire to doom the people, and hot provide plenty as they may gain authority over populations by stifling solutions to problems.  Problems that are not solved can give powers over mobs to manipulative people.  Destroying solutions, is a way that the old world can take captive productive new world peoples.  I don't like that in case you do not know it.

They use verbal and violent to upset reality and do genetic damage to the human race by not allowing for the retention of useful talents, but narrowing the gene pool to stupid verbal and violent types.

Some seaweed stuff:
MacroAlgae: https://www.msn.com/en-us/health/medica … r-BB1lwl9g
Improved Seaweed: https://scitechdaily.com/super-seaweed- … f-seaweed/

Sea Weed:
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-63785575

A submerged bubble of water in the oceans or salt lakes may provide a garden to grow such things.  You could even do it in fresh water lakes, just keep the saltwater in the bag.

Keep in mind that mob manipulations allow some creepy types to benefit from social upset.  And to perpetuate their kind at the expense of the more productive types.

America has been prosperous because we limit the powers of these vampires.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-04-16 11:10:36)


Done.

Offline

Board footer

Powered by FluxBB