Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

tahanson43206 · 2024-02-18 12:51:55

For Calliban re #1650

Thanks for a ** very ** interesting development of the atmosphere mining concept that Void's been tossing out for years.

That would be one of the industries that we might be able to introduce to the forum, if we are able to work through the difficulties.

The Solar System has a number of planets and moons where the technique you described would work and produce useful products for sale.

(th)

Void · 2024-02-18 14:22:55

It is very good. At the very least this might inspire some interesting SciFi.

Perhaps the check to see if there is evidence of life in the clouds of Venus could accelerate.

If lots of young minds work on it, (Maybe some oldies even), maybe something more can happen.

Done

Void · 2024-02-19 08:51:08

In post #1650 Calliban said:

Calliban
Member
From: Northern England, UK
Registered: 2019-08-18
Posts: 3,252
Email
Another option for atmospheric mining could be a ram scoop satellite in an elliptical orbit about the planet. The perogee of the satellite would pass through the ionosphere, allowing gas to be compressed and captured. The apogee would be much higher, several thousand km above the surface. For most of its orbit, the probe would use solar electricity to chill a mass of nitrogen and CO2 beneath their freezing point. As it passes through upper atmosphere, this accumulated cold energy is used to chill the intake gases. With each orbit, it would accumulate more liquefied gases. A plasma engine of some kind would accelerate the satellite before and after passing through the upper atmosphere, replacing the energy lost by transiting the atmosphere.

I really do appreciate alternate ideas.

I have thought about local and nonlocal values of retrieved materials. This method may not be able to get any Hydrogen, but I am not certain of that. It depends on how deep the solar wind mixes into the sunward side of the planets atmosphere.

This article suggests that little Hydrogen can be retrieved by Caliban's method from deeper in the atmosphere:
Quote:

https://www.nature.com/articles/nature06026
Abstract
Venus has no significant internal magnetic field1, which allows the solar wind to interact directly with its atmosphere2,3. A field is induced in this interaction, which partially shields the atmosphere, but we have no knowledge of how effective that shield is at solar minimum. (Our current knowledge of the solar wind interaction with Venus is derived from measurements at solar maximum3,4,5,6.) The bow shock is close to the planet, meaning that it is possible that some solar wind could be absorbed by the atmosphere and contribute to the evolution of the atmosphere7,8. Here we report magnetic field measurements from the Venus Express spacecraft3 in the plasma environment surrounding Venus. The bow shock under low solar activity conditions seems to be in the position that would be expected from a complete deflection by a magnetized ionosphere9. Therefore little solar wind enters the Venus ionosphere even at solar minimum.

Still, I am going to wonder if you put a magnetic field on the collection device and skimmed, the location where solar wind might pile up above the atmosphere, could you perhaps collect some Hydrogen or Helium?

Possibly catching it into a cold Carbon adsorption device. We don't need too much, but as much as possible would be desired. A magnetic field may be able to catch ionized gasses, and if that collection could be directed into an adsroption device that might work for Hydrogen, maybe Helium from the Solar wind.

And then if you wanted to collect Nitrogen and CO2, you could simply do as Calliban has suggested, but you might also consider a magnetic field.

So,we might hope to collect Hydrogen, Nitrogen, CO2>(Oxygen, Carbon).

The local value of these substances would be ranked (Hydrogen, Carbon, Nitrogen, Oxygen).

The export value of these substances would be (Nitrogen, Carbon, Hydrogen, Oxygen).

A magnetic ram scoop is not an entirely unexplored notion: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bussard_ramjet

This is very nice: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atmospheric_mining
Quote:

Atmospheric mining

They seem to not have looked at Venus yet but have looked into the four outer planets. Venus has available Nitrogen, and it would be harder to get Nitrogen from the 4 outer planets, except for their moons.

Because Oxygen is so common in the solar system it is less valuable to keep, unless, for breathing purposes.

If Oxygen can be used as a propellant in something like a mass driver then it may have that value. a lot of Oxygen exits Venus though it's tail.

Another form of propulsion can be sailing on the solar wind. If you do have an elliptical orbit, the ram ship might sail out away from the sun with an expanded magnetic field, and then collapse the field on the inward bound path, presuming that the perihelion would be on the sunward side of the planet.

So, we might combine a ram with a plasma sail. And then also add a tether. In some cases, your power pickup unit will have drag that you do not want to expose to the atmosphere. You only want to expose your collection device to atmosphere.

Energy devices could be nuclear, solar and also microwave. Solar would be either solar panels or solar thermal. Microwave would be a rectenna, that gets power beamed to it from other devices in orbit of Venus.

The tether would probably not be rotating, but would be like a fishing line, where the power device is above, and the collection device might be some distance below the power device on a tether, and it would skim the atmosphere at perihelion.

Returning to Oxygen again, I don't know if Oxygen would be used to push the ram. If it did, it is possible that some of the Oxygen would return to the atmosphere of Venus, depending on speed of expulsion and direction and timing. Just an interesting notion.

But I think that for interplanetary transportation the carbon might be Urea, Wood, Carbon, Ammonia, Liquid Nitrogen as possibilities, but Oxygen could be a thrusting mass. Most likely a magnetic solar sail might be used, but it may be that at times Oxygen would be expelled, perhaps in a mass driver method.

So, yes maybe we don't need things floating in the clouds, (Aerostats) to collect gasses of use..

Carbon Nitride is interesting: https://www.newscientist.com/article/24 … s-diamond/

A new achievement and hard to make. I wonder if it could be useful as structure in space?

Anyway Aerostats are not ruled out but the ram process with a tether looks interesting to me.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-02-19 16:40:54)

Void · 2024-02-19 21:05:27

Caliban's notion of liquid Nitrogen or CO2 as a condenser, is not wrong, might be considered as well. Perhaps chilled near the freezing point.

Done

Void · 2024-02-20 09:36:02

Going a bit further with Callibans concept, I am wondering about a tank filled with CO2 Snow/Frost. Porous may serve best.

So, if you can skim atmosphere from Venus, and push it into this tank, a preferred target would be Hydrogen, Nitrogen, and CO2. Up higher though you may get Hydrogen, Helium, and Oxygen.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atmosphere_of_Venus
Image Quote:
Quote:

Venus interacts with the solar wind. Components of the induced magnetosphere are shown.

Quote:

Due to the lack of the intrinsic magnetic field on Venus, the solar wind penetrates relatively deep into the planetary exosphere and causes substantial atmosphere loss.[49] The loss happens mainly via the magnetotail. Currently the main ion types being lost are O+, H+ and He+. The ratio of hydrogen to oxygen losses is around 2 (i.e. almost stoichiometric for water) indicating the ongoing loss of water.[48]

So, if we had a magnetic ram/heat shield, perhaps the materials could be conducted into such a tank. I would expect Helium to embed into the CO2 snow perhaps in an adsorption process? Hydrogen ions may chemically react to the CO2 Snow/frost. Oxygen Ions may also chemically react. The results of chemical reactions may condense or be adsorbed. Not sure.

A deeper dive to get N2 and CO2, would use a different method, I expect. Perhaps still the magnetic ram, but a further collection process needs some more thought.

Using a magnetic ram/shield/collector for initial contact with the gasses, allows them to radiate heat to the surroundings before some kind of compression into a further collection method.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-02-20 09:45:21)

Void · 2024-02-20 15:10:29

The notion of extracting resources from Venus, still needs work. I cannot be sure it will work out.

But the notion of air braking materials into orbit of Venus, I think would work. You might use a combination of heat shields made of asteroid regolith. However, magnetic heat shielding method might make sense.

I am wondering if you could cool a canister of regolith to very low temperatures, could you use a magnetic shield, to aerobrake and you scoop Venus's atmosphere into it and have that atmosphere condense in the canister of cold regolith.

A Maybe, I guess.

I would not expect to air brake whole asteroid but to mine the asteroids to create these things to air brake into orbit of Venus,

The motion of Venus crossers would in part give the method to get to Venus, but you might use additional propulsion methods.

Among those could be solar magnetic braking, navigating. The magnetic field might work as a scooper for air braking to orbit.

The magnetic air brake might then be able to use the solar wind to return to an asteroid to pick up another load.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-02-20 15:12:22)

Void · 2024-03-08 09:11:26

I have been working on the idea of manipulating materials of small worlds, in other topics. Here is one: http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 76#p220076

But I think I will work here now and leave that back to Calliban.

For the moment I am focusing on tiny rubble piles more like Bennu and Ryugu, and later may tackle the small worlds Phobos and Deimos which resemble a size of asteroid and are proximate to Mars.

There are some nice pictures of the object in this article: https://www.universetoday.com/141859/as … x-arrived/
Image Quote:

I ran into some membership disagreement with the notion of using magnetics and electrostatics. The criticisms caused me to reevaluate. I will still want to use them, but have now tilted more toward mechanical methods. Now, I am collecting the following to try to imagine using together along with magnetics and electrostatics.

1) Harpoons. I learned this idea from an Isaac Arthur presentation.
2) A cinch loops. I think I came up with that on my own but would not be suppressed if others have thought of it.
3) A half hoop, which is a modification of Caliban's notion of a ring around an asteroid.
4) Accumulated Inertia. I worked with similar ideas previously.

And then allowing that magnetics and electrostatics can be used as might be helpful.

Pause.................Coffee.

1) Harpoons: Well, it seems that we are going to harpoon an asteroid! In our dreams: https://www.popularmechanics.com/space/ … -asteroid/
Anyway, it is an established idea. The two locations I think to first harpoon are the spin poles.
Then, perhaps a circling of the asteroid round a longitude path to then provide anchors for a;

2) Cinch Loop. The Linch Loop, (Draw String) attached to the harpoons to encircle the asteroid. Then the loop drawn fairly tight.
Draw String: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drawstring
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trucker%27s_hitch
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Butterfly_loop
Anyway, rope tricks and to lasso an asteroid.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lasso Yeee Hay! I'm a space cowboy!

3) The Calliban hoop or ring, could then have bearing attachments at the spin poles. A full or half hoop could be considered. A full hoop would completely surround the asteroid, a half hoop would be like that that anchors a globe map of the world.
https://www.amazon.com/Waldauge-Illumin … 4263&psc=1
Image Quote: 91oz-K8nBUL._AC_SX522_.jpg
Due to centrifugal force, it may be desirable to have a full hoop/ring, to counterbalance centrifugal forces.
Then you could have two trollies that counterbalance each other to some degree that can travel the hoop/ring. This again however does not need to be a rigid hoop/ring, but might be a cord of some sort that you could shorten as you mined the asteroid. The concept is not finalized. There is room for further innovation. The trollies then could access any point on the surface of the globe of the asteroid as the hoop/ring is on bearings and may be motorized to do a slow spin.

3a) The trollies then might have material manipulating "Hands" to gather materials and then the trollies might move these materials to a spin pole location for further actions.

4) Inertia. By moving materials to the spin poles to process, some of the materials may be accumulated to give inertia to the polar structures. Inertia may be helpful for stability as an action by a moving member in the material gathering effort may threated an instability that may damage the whole process. Also accumulated materials may provide some radiation protection that may protect electronics and perhaps even humans, if they are present.

There does come a question, of what happens after you peel off lots of materials and the asteroid rubble pile becomes smaller, perhaps too small to continue handling in this way.

A suggest turning the hoop/ring into a full shell. It does not have to be too strong, just enough to retain the remaining asteroid materials.

At that point of shelling, then we can go full on back to the methods of Calliban and pluck the remaining materials with robotic arms of some sort.

So then rather than building a massive ring and transporting it to an asteroid, we would start with lightweight methods, and work our way to having extracted exportable materials and also retaining common materials by building them into additional structure. Over time the tricky methods of manipulation would become much firmer. So, we are then using a metamorphic progression to process the asteroid.

In truth our shell to build may be more of a net, such as has been suggested for working with a rubble pile asteroid: https://phys.org/news/2022-12-rubble-pi … itats.html
Image Quote:

But I prefer a globe. A globe can be built more from local materials. A weave of whatever cables/strings can be constructed from scrap materials. In a similar fashion sintered blocks of scrap materials could be attached to the interior of such a webbing under construction.

And then you would have a protective shell encompassing the remains of the asteroid.

As for humans and artificial gravity, I think a small crew with a baton type of spin gravity device would do, (Dr. Johnson). Vast Space has something like that in mind. https://www.vastspace.com/

Such a device might not have exceptional radiation protection at first, but only storm shelters. But over time, materials from the asteroid would be used to fortify and expand the nature of the spin gravity device.

The spin gravity device would be separate from the mining operation of the asteroid but could be reasonably nearby.

Also, independent but nearby could be power stations. I guess nuclear is not prohibited, but solar would perhaps be a thing that could be constructed from the materials of the asteroid. The power stations might include processing facilities for materials extracted from the asteroid.

Where it is practical and useful to use magnetics and electrostatics and the solar wind and photons, they would be used.

The spin of the asteroid might be turned into orbital propulsion by some methods. Various types of magnetic or photon sail might be used, or even a mass driver system to propel payloads to desired places. So, eventually the spin might be nullified.

Thats enough for now.

Done

Oh, materials from asteroids may be very useful in places like the orbits of Venus and on the surface of the Moon, making those places more useful to the entire effort to expand into the solar system.

Done

Apophis is being discussed elsewhere: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/99942_Apophis
Quote:

Aphelion 1.0994 AU (164.47 million km)
Perihelion 0.7461 AU (111.61 million km)

I think that looks good. Extracted materials could be Ballistically Captured to Earth/Moon orbits, and I think that extracted materials could also be aero braked into Venus orbits.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orbit_of_Venus
Venus: Quote:

Venus has an orbit with a semi-major axis of 0.723 au (108,200,000 km; 67,200,000 mi), and an eccentricity of 0.007.[

So, that kind of looks good, but in both the case of Earth/Moon and Venus, delivered materials have to pass by the delivery point at the time of the delivery. And of course, one way to protect planets from an Apophis is to eat it, and to have propulsion methods to keep it from harming a planet. So then perhaps to build a space station out of it with propulsive means.

Apophis may have some water resources but not much Carbon or Nitrogen, I expect.

Done

But focusing on small rubble piles, it may be possible to build sufficient infrastructure to then start handling objects like Phobos and Deimos and asteroids of a similar size.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-03-08 10:55:33)

Void · 2024-03-09 20:56:09

I think I have something to add to tools for anchoring to an asteroid. The corkscrew type thing that can anchor a dog's leash to the ground.
Lots of good ideas in this: https://www.amazon.com/s?k=corkscrew+gr … 55skvxde_e
Image Quote: 71TMh+2LikL._AC_UL320_.jpg

The problem of anchoring a trampoline to the ground also has an interesting tool: https://www.wikihow.com/Anchor-a-Trampoline
Image Quote:

Now if you have a left and a right hand version then a spacecraft could punch into the soil with them and spin one clockwise and the other counter clockwise. That way the torque would be satisfied to zero, we might hope.

Harpoons are good, with barbs, but these might be better, and it may also be possible to unscrew them if you want to move them or otherwise reuse them.

Now, I am thinking of Phobos and Deimos for instance.

Also, perhaps for many other asteroids where sufficient gravitation is lacking to build structures.

Anyway it is possibly a way to do things.

Done

While you might add magnetism to these corkscrew augers, you might also use electrostatics if you coated them with a electric insulation.
The combination may help them cling to regolith, I hope.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-03-10 11:39:19)

Void · 2024-03-10 08:34:49

OK, I have found some things I was looking for about the Martian Moons: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phobos_(m … urface.%20
Quote:

Recent images from Mars Global Surveyor indicate that Phobos is covered with a layer of fine-grained regolith at least 100 meters thick; it is hypothesized to have been created by impacts from other bodies, but it is not known how the material stuck to an object with almost no gravity.[37]

OK, maybe cork screws will work. Can magnetism be provided in the cork screw devices, and might it help anchor them?

https://www.space.com/20413-phobos-deim … moons.html
Quote:

Identity crisis
Phobos and Deimos bear more resemblance to asteroids than to Earth's moon. Both are tiny — the larger, Phobos, is only 14 miles across (22 kilometers), while the smaller, Deimos, is only 8 miles (13 km), making them some of the smallest moons in the solar system.
Both are also made up of material that resembles Type I or II carbonaceous chondrites, the substance that makes up asteroids. With their elongated shapes, they even look more like asteroids than moons.

Unfortunately we don't have much certainty about much of what is thought to be true.

About Carbonaceous Chondrites:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbonaceous_chondrite

I like this one: https://ui.adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/1963S … M/abstract
Quote:

They have been divided into three subgroups known respectively as Type I, Type II, and Type III. Analyses of Type I meteorites show about 3 5% of carbon and 20% of combined water; they consist largely of hydrated magnesium-iron silicate, magnetite, and magnesium sulfate, contain no chondrules, and have a density about 2.2. Analyses of Type II meteorites show about 2 3% of carbon and 10 15% of combined water; they consist of a groundmass of hydrated magnesium-iron silicate enclosing chondrules of olivine and pyroxene which are almost iron-free, and have a density of 2.6 2.9. Analyses of Type III meteorites show about 0.5 2% of carbon and 2% combined water; they consist largely of olivine (often variable in composition, but averaging 30 40 mole per cent Fe2SiO4), with accessory pigeonite and sulfide minerals, and have a density about 3.4.

So that is encouraging, but it has been said that the surface materials of the two moons do not indicate water. And a Arab space probe claims the moons resemble Mars materials.

But yet another article https://science.nasa.gov/mars/moons/facts/
Indicates

The moons appear to be made of carbon-rich rock mixed with ice and may be captured asteroids.

It is my personal opinion that if the voids inside the moons do not have ice, they may be filled with a thin cloud of Hydrogen from the solar wind. The solar wind appears to be absorbed into Phobos.

I am going to pause.....................and have breakfast and then finish this post, I hope.

This got fetched up from the past due to a query from (th): http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 71#p220271
Quote:

I can look further but I like this from Spacenut: http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 58#p155158
Of course it is about a rubble pile moon, but in a similar manner rubble piles may often be compose of materials from more than one object.
Quote:
https://www.sci.news/space/phobos-impac … 06445.html
This is an answer I am somewhat comfortable with, Quote:
The study does not argue Phobos is made entirely of material from Mars, but the new results are consistent with the moon containing a portion of the planet’s crust, perhaps as an amalgamation of debris from the planet and the remnants of the impacting object.
I have some work to do on other topics and perhaps later I will look further. I also liked Terraformers post that referenced Hopp.
http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 74#p155174
Quote:
https://hopsblog-hop.blogspot.com/2015/ … solar.html

Done

So, at this point I am most comfortable with the notion that the moons of Mars may be composed of materials from Mars and one or more impactors. So, then they may still contain Carbon. That will have to do until better information is available.

This method to work with iron turned up today: http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 73#p220273
Quote:

I think the members could be interested, I think Martian dune materials might be processed this way: https://journals.plos.org/plosone/artic … ne.0249962
Quote:
Iron can be microbially extracted from Lunar and Martian regolith simulants and 3D printed into tough structural materials
Sofie M. Castelein ,Tom F. Aarts ,Juergen Schleppi,Ruud Hendrikx,Amarante J. Böttger,Dominik Benz,Maude Marechal,Advenit Makaya,Stan J. J. Brouns,Martin Schwentenwein,Anne S. Meyer ,Benjamin A. E. Lehner
Published: April 28, 2021
And the 3D printing is of interest also for making parts.
Done

Quote:

Martian regolith contains a high concentration of iron in the form of Fe(III) [21] that can be reduced to Fe(II) by S. oneidensis, promoting the precipitation of magnetite which can subsequently be extracted magnetically

But to use this on the Martian moons, a source of Hydrogen will be needed. Mars itself could be that source if necessary.

So, now I am considering the propellants that could be extracted from Photos/Deimos/Mars.

Oxygen from Phobos/Deimos
Hydrogen from Mars?
Carbon from Phobos/Deimos or Mars if necessary. (Carbon granules, CO, and perhaps CH4 as fuels)
Then Magnetite dust to spew from mass drivers.
Iron to use in Neumann Drives (I think that both Carbon and Iron will work with those).

Mass Driver: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_driver
Quote:

Since a mass driver could use any type of mass for reaction mass to move the spacecraft, a mass driver or some variation seems ideal for deep-space vehicles that scavenge reaction mass from found resources.
One possible drawback of the mass driver is that it has the potential to send solid reaction mass travelling at dangerously high relative speeds into useful orbits and traffic lanes. To overcome this problem, most schemes plan to throw finely-divided dust. Alternatively, liquid oxygen could be used as reaction mass, which upon release would boil down to its molecular state. Propelling the reaction mass to solar escape velocity is another way to ensure that it will not remain a hazard.

Magnetite: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetite
If you shot Magnetite dust out of a Mass Driver you would be shooting Iron and Oxygen molecules.

Neumann Drive: https://neumannspace.com/neumann-drive/

So, propellants.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-03-10 11:37:29)

Void · 2024-03-10 16:19:08

Recalling a calibration lab I used to work in, a sand bath.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sand_bath

A stream of air from the bottom can levitate the sand and make it fluid.

And so I am thinking of Phobos and Starship.

OK, I have found some things I was looking for about the Martian Moons: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phobos_(m … urface.%20
Quote:

Recent images from Mars Global Surveyor indicate that Phobos is covered with a layer of fine-grained regolith at least 100 meters thick; it is hypothesized to have been created by impacts from other bodies, but it is not known how the material stuck to an object with almost no gravity.[37]

So, could we put small cold gas thrusters in the nose of a starship and fluidize the fine-grained regolith, and so then fire the starship tail engines to push it into the fine-grained regolith? The process needs to not be overdone, but only be sufficient to fluidize the soil as the nose goes in.

And to further anchor the starship in the regolith, rods or auger devices might pass through holes in the hull horizontally into the soil.

You might then use corkscrew or auger type anchors to further tie down the ship. Then you have to have a way into the propellant tanks, and would have drained them, and you would cut passage though the tanks all the way to the nose section, then you would have to make the ship air tight, and so then you would have very good radiation protection for the most part, I expect, and you could make it better by shielding the exposed tail end with bags of regolith. You could mount a power supply on the tail, perhaps nuclear, perhaps solar.

If you had a passage in the nose, you could then tunnel deeper into the regolith, perhaps finding what is inside, voids or voids filled with ice?

A desire would be large slabs of rock that you could anchor cables to. Then to tie the ship down better using that.

Depending on the nature of the interior of the moon Phobos or Deimos, you might not need to mine the surface of the moon but hollow out the interior of the moon.

At some point you would need artificial gravity. Ideally that could eventually be done inside the moon, but at first a baton type device might do it outside, to recondition people. Bagged regolith could perhaps become radiation shielding for that effort.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-03-10 16:33:03)

Calliban · 2024-03-11 06:59:15

I don't think the corkscrew device will work well on most asteroids, because the regolith is too weakly bound to sustain any shear stress. If you could find a surface that was solid rock, then there is enough shearing strength there to hold some kind of thread against a normal pulling force. But what we have seen so far tells us that the surfaces of most asteroids appear to behave more like a liquid than a solid. There is nothing to fix a thread into, because the forces between particles are very weak. Van der waals forces appear to be just as important as gravity in holding the smaller objects together.

This problem is why I suggested the ring idea in the first place. It allows you to use gravity as a balancing force, even if the surface behaves like liquid. Maybe if the cork screws were extremely long (several m) they will lock against enough particles for even the extremely weak forces to be effective in holding the screw in place. Maybe it will work. I think we would need to try it before we can know for sure.

Last edited by Calliban (2024-03-11 07:01:42)

Void · 2024-03-11 07:49:18

I agree, there can be some major concerns as to if it can work. I have suggested using electrostatics to improve the cling. In that case the anchor would need a non-conductive outside layer. Also, magnetics might give some assistance as well. And they might be long.

And they may well not work well enough to be worth it. I think the chances of it working for Phobos are greater than to work for Bennu.

You have brought up an interesting thing though. If the regolith is like a fluid, then can a ship swim into it?

In any case the notion of being locked down, can be relative. If you have a robotic system to move appropriately so as to be very slow motion you might lock down enough so that you can eventually dig down to a big slab and anchor to it.

More needs to be known about Phobos and Deimos.

It feels better to have facts: https://science.nasa.gov/mars/moons/facts/
Quote:

Phobos has only 1/1,000th as much gravitational pull as Earth. A 150-pound (68 kilogram) person would weigh two ounces (68 grams) there.

So, one of the things I have wanted to do would be to perhaps fill a container with regolith. You have stimulated a notion.

A big filled with regolith could be made to weigh 150-pounds on Phobos, if you got enough regolith into it.
Believe it or not I used to work with metric in calibrations, also sometimes pounds.
Convert 150 pounds to kg: 68.04 kg, 68040 grams.
Maybe my numbers are correct, so that you would have to scoop 1000 150 pound people into the bag

The math may not matter so much the phrase lotsa regolith may do.

So, then what if you have a big bag, and a ship with thrusters and a nose end with two counterrotating auger/propellers. The bag could be toroidal perhaps. You would have to be careful that a rock jam would not wreck your auger mechanism. I might be like a Bottom feeder mouth on a fish. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypostomus_plecostomus Image Quote:

Maybe the bag would be cylindrical. but it would need a frame connecting the auger mouth to the thrusters.

So, when you were done you would have a bag with fill that weighed 150 pounds / 68.04 kg. Some sort of robot attached to it could scoop more regolith for some purpose.

Just a trial run. I don't feel foolish about the cork screw thing either as previously others have suggested harpoons.

But it appears that we have to have a learning experience of some type for these objects. I think that the key is to get inside of them and wedge yourself into the voids that exist or that you could create.

If you could push into the regolith, then you could use some kind of hydraulic expander to create a useful void. Maybe if you could get a balloon in there. Perhaps an expandable space station that would harden after inflation. It could have a considerably thinner hull as the regolith would provide considerable protection from radiation and impactors.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inflatable_space_habitat

So, after more probes give better data, some of these tricks could be starter methods to get inside of a rubble pile asteroid or moon.

In some ways if you are going to inject an inflatable into the regolith, the bigger the better. And as anchors balloons might work fairly well.

Also, bags of regolith on the surface might weight things down.

Your power supply would need to be on the outside of the rubble pile though, and also an access path, probably more than one access path.

Thanks for the stimulation.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-03-11 08:26:39)

Void · 2024-03-11 11:13:19

I am cloning a post from Calliban here, as it is what I was going to work on next here: http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 08#p220308
Quote:

Calliban
Member
From: Northern England, UK
Registered: 2019-08-18
Posts: 3,316
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Interesting topic. Humans could teleoperate humanoid robots from Mars orbit and build a base. They would never actually have to land. A large ship could take them to Mars orbit and back again using low thrust ion propulsion. This might be an early option for exploring Mars and building a base for humans to inhabit before anyone lands. It allows humans to teleoperate robots in real time without transmission lag.
Last edited by Calliban (Today 12:02:20)
"Plan and prepare for every possibility, and you will never act. It is nobler to have courage as we stumble into half the things we fear than to analyse every possible obstacle and begin nothing. Great things are achieved by embracing great dangers."

The above is post #89 from "Index» Science, Technology, and Astronomy» Teleoperation".

There seem to be two ways to preposition big loads into Martian orbit not requiring air breaking you have mentioned ion propulsion. We also have Ballistic Capture which is compatible with ion propulsion.

I would not necessarily eliminate the notion of landings on Mars, but prior to setting up a permanent base, an establishment in orbit could make sense.

In this post I talked about propellants that we might be able to get local to Mars orbit: http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 64#p220264

If we could find a way to bag fine regolith from Phobos or Deimos, a baton spacecraft with artificial gravity could be flown to Mars orbits and the bags of regolith be attached to it and then it would be rotated for artificial gravity. This is where you could recondition humans periodically as needed. Perhaps it is the only place humans would be at first, as bases on Phobos/Deimos/and Mars, might only be occupied by robots with telepresence at first. This could greatly simplify a base on Phobos or Deimos.

In reality a sucker fish skimmer ship might be how to mine the two moons at first: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypostomus_plecostomus
If you had some type of impeller-propeller-augers in the mouth, then the thing might skid on runners on the surface of these moons and suck up fine regolith. It would need thrusters of course.

But come to think of it the impellers might be able to pull the thing along while pulling dirt in. If you could charge the "Fish" up with a (+) charge, it might be attracted to the moon you are mining. It would not take too much attraction. You could shoot electron beams off of the "Fish" perhaps at the moon itself??? or out into space??? That way you might not have to use the thrusters too much.

And of course, Phobos and Deimos actually do have tiny gravitation which could help.

So, the materials gathered into bags could be processed at a factory facility in orbit, to produce some of the things wanted.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-03-11 11:36:50)

Void · 2024-03-11 12:07:36

Isaac Arthur is likely to have a video out about the Martian moons, on Thursday. I am looking forward to it.

But for now, we can recall something that the ESA has done: https://www.space.com/phobos-radar-unkn … rs-express Quote:

Mars moon mystery: Strange structures found inside 'fearful' Phobos
News
By Keith Cooper published October 31, 2022
Understanding the interior structure of Phobos could be key in solving the mystery of its origin.

Image Quote:

So, there might be large chunks of rock inside.

It needs more scanning though.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-03-11 12:12:33)

Void · 2024-03-13 13:16:29

This could go into a Humanoid Robot Topic, but I would like to consider it or things like it on the Moon, around Mars and eventually on Mars.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iYC-lwRMYxU
Quote:

BREAKING: Figure CEO DROPS New Demo Humanoid Now Talking
Brighter with Herbert

I am not doing this to annoy anyone. This is just a use of magnetism and electrostatics and shells stimulated by Calliban:

The drawing indicates a method to recatch low level leakage of gasses out of the surround as frost. The magnetic field would repel the solar wind, and also perhaps give some radiation protection. An electric charge of (-) is intended to make molecules cling to the outside of the surround. The hope is that the molecules will bounce to the two cold spots at the poles.

Using Phobos, Deimos, or an asteroid as a counterweight, the surround can be sun following, I hope and can keep the little world in front of the habitat as additional radiation protection.

Done

So, as it may be easy to bring large loads to the orbits of Mars without air braking, and using electric propulsion with Ballistic Capture, with robots the options of how to expand to Mars may change a bit long term.

Done

The internal pressures are not defined. Originally I have thought that they would be rather low.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-03-13 13:43:49)

Void · 2024-03-14 10:55:10

Isaac Arthur has delivered as promised: https://www.reddit.com/r/IsaacArthur/co … os_deimos/
Quote:

r/IsaacArthur
•
4 hr. ago
IsaacArthur
Settling Mars: Phobos & Deimos

Perhaps not popular, but if fuel were prepositioned to the orbits of Mars and Oxygen extracted from the moons Phobos or Deimos, perhaps the use of Merlin engines would be justified if the fuel was of a nature that could store long term in orbit with minimal effort, RP-1.

I am ignorant, I confess it, but that looks like a question that may be justified, if Oxygen could be harvested from one of those moons.

The hardware exists, it is not nearly as good as raptors, but it may be adaptive to the need and options. The coking problem would not be a major issue as you might only fire the Merlin's one time. You would perhaps use electric propulsion to get the booster to Martian orbit with the fuel in it.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-03-14 11:00:49)

Void · 2024-03-17 11:04:09

I want to talk about hardware that appears to be emerging at this time. But I don't want to interfere with more professional conversations that at this time are occurring. So, I will do my posting here.

Just at the moment Starship, and Stoke Space come to mind. Well, why have a Star, if you could have a NOVA instead?

For the moment, my interest is in LEO, for either of the ships. You don't seem to get much else done, if you don't do that.

I will think about "Relative Value".

Starship as it is, is relatively as valuable as is SLS, in my opinion. They do need to get more control over near orbit processes for the Starship than they have yet accomplished, but they are close. If they can close on that, then they have something. Not the completion of the entire set of promises, but they then have a fully expendable rocket process that could deliver large masses in large sizes to orbit.

If they can get to semi-expendable like the Falcon 9, then they would recover the Super Heavy most of the time. And that could be better than Falcon 9, as the Raptors are better than Merlin's, and the payloads to orbit could be very heavy and rather large.

Recovering 33 Raptors on each Super Heavy flight would be rather valuable.

Just now they appear to be doing testing of a full Starship with flaps and heat shield.

Later on if they wanted to they could send stripped down Starships as well. Such Starships could be recovered to relocate. This would allow 200 to 250 ton payloads to orbit, I believe.

Such Starships could be moved to another location than LEO, and be used as a resource, or modified with Lunar Resources. But those are ideas that mush come later, if at all.

Stoke Space is just fun to watch, with their "Nova", as their process is much different. Not nearly as ambitious at this time. Probably a safe bet that if their concepts react well with reality they will make a machine that works and is useful. A combinational heat shield might be of two types I can think of:
1) Nova: Put ablative or tile heat shield over the active cooling heat shield. Then if you get a hot spot, your active cooling might handle it. This of course would be more costly.
2) Starship: if you could put a squirt gun robot into the propellant tanks, and it detected a hot spot it might squirt the hot spot with a fluid or gas to cool it. Fairly cheesy, I admit, but who knows maybe further thinking would yield something.

Other things have passed through my mind but let's not be troubled with it at this time.

Just now I am thinking about combination heat shield methods, and also if it would be possible to return to Earth from Mars by way of Venus, thus avoiding the need for a heat shield. A swing-by of Venus from Mars/Phobos/Deimos would then perhaps allow a Ballistic Capture to Earth/Moon orbit. I query for that and the internet being what it is, it only talks about going to Mars from Earth by a swing-by of Venus. I will make note that a return from Mars by swing-by of Venus would allow you to take on supplies from Mars/Phobos/Deimos.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-03-20 07:12:09)

Void · 2024-03-20 07:14:07

I may be very "Off-Base" on this, but I have an interest to think of a sort of Mars Boomerang Ship. This might be a ship that does fly-bys of Venus and/or Earth/Moon, and then returns to Mars orbit, not stopping at Venus or Earth/Moon. And no, I do not know how much sense this makes.

But Phobos/Deimos/Mars would be the materials origination for such a method. While a "Parent Ship" would not stop at a planet other than Mars, it may host "Child" ships, that may stop at Venus or Earth/Moon. For Earth/Moon this might be a method to return humans from Mars, or perhaps also the Asteroid Belt. For Venus, it might be a method to deliver payloads as well.

The "Parent Ship", not having a heat shield method, may return to Mars without heat shield by Ballistic Capture method. I then, therefore, must have a life support that can protect humans completely during extended periods of flight. This is, if it is to host humans.

For delivery of humans directly to Earth/Moon or Venus, heat shielding would be needed for the delivered packages, or an unreal number of propellants used.

For an indirect delivery of humans to Earth/Moon, a flyby of Venus would be needed, and then a Ballistic Capture to Earth/Moon.

In the case where a heat shield was used to deliver packages to a planet with an atmosphere, a heat shield method involving devices made of materials from Phobos/Deimos/Mars might be considered. This might be similar to making heat shields from regolith.

I haven't read this, but it appears to speak of such heat shields: https://www.nasa.gov/wp-content/uploads … tagged.pdf

Such may be very important for deliveries to Venus. The delivery method would most likely be to capture a payload to an orbit of Venus. And so, then the remnant of the heat shield would likely be regarded as an asset material at that location for repurpose.

By this method then the orbits of Venus might be a place to at least have an emergency shelter for humans who need to abort a trip Earth/Moon>Venus>Mars. Probably more is desired for that.

I think it might make sense that for a delivery Mars>Earth/Moon, such a heat shield may be assistive to brining a ship to a survivable insertion to Earth orbit or Landing.

I could speculate on assistance to Starship. But that would be tricky. If the Starship was planning to directly land, then the heatshield would likely need to be dumped after the atmospheric entry heat is dissipated.

This might be interesting as a notion for return of a Lunar Starship to a lower Earth orbit. In that case the heat shield might remain with the ship until repurposed. And then the Starship would return to the Moon without it.

In the case of something like Stoke Space, such a Lunar Heat shield might allow it to get to an orbit of Earth, then that heat shield left in orbit the NOVA could land. But it does need Hydrogen to cool itself, so that is complex to solve. Hydrogen in a depot, Hydrogen from Earth, might be filled into the NOVA to allow it to land.

Anyway, the Moon conversation is a bit of a deviation from the main body of this post.

I think it may be interesting to see how Phobos/Deimos/Mars/asteroids, can be used to deliver passengers and materials to Earth/Moon and Venus.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-03-20 07:38:14)

Void · 2024-03-20 08:23:08

Regarding the last post, a "Parent" ship as described there, could have multiple methods of propulsion.
I have already suggested flybys of Venus and Earth/Moon, and Ballistic Capture is also a gravitation form of propulsion.
To have the "Parent" ship exit the gravity well of Mars, a chemical-based action/reaction might be suitable.
And then you have the potential of photon sails and also perhaps magnetic type solar wind sails.

Nuclear could support nuclear thermal, nuclear electric, and nuclear magnetic propulsion methods.

If you did not photon sails, it is possible that they could double as concentrating mirrors for some method of propulsion.

I leave it open.

Such a "Parent" ship could behave like a cycler for a while, connecting to one or even perhaps two planets as per passes, and then with the correct propulsion methods be available it might hook back up to Mars, involving ballistic capture. So, the "Parent" ship probably would not have a heat shield.

So, the using a ship like Starship from Earth, people could be transferred to the "Parent" ship.

You will notice that "Parent" is not gender specific There is a reason for that, that many of you may not comprehend.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-03-20 08:26:55)

Void · 2024-03-20 09:32:33

So, continuing from the last two posts, a Cycler(Ballistic Capture Type) would need a weight loss program, to avoid excessive costs for imposed changes of inertia.

A regular cycler might not care that much, but of course it has to have course corrections also.

We could suggest an O'Neill cylinder. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/O%27Neill_cylinder Image Quote:

But as it might be relatively easy to get one of them into a ballistic capture of Mars or Earth, the propulsion to pluck them away again would be expensive.

So, they might be something lighter, and with efficiency of everything in mind. But they might be substantial enough that they could support human life support needed indefinitely.

Assistive to this could be if they could link up with actual cyclers at times.

These might be uninhabited at times, but habitable.

I am just speculating but I think that a different type of cycler might be useful as well. A single planet cycler. You could have many of those. And those might have permanent populations. Unlike two planet cyclers, they would simply have a periodic encounter with a particular planet. But they may at times be able to change which planet.

So there could be different types of cycler:
1) Cycler(Ballistic Capture Type. (The least inertia)
2) Cycler(Dual Planet Type) (Medium inertia)
2) Cycler(Single Planet Type) (Largest inertia)

A ship from Earth/Moon or other planet might hitch a ride on any of these. But #1 might be light enough to push itself to a point where Ballistic Capture to a planet might be possible. Of course #2 and #3 could do that as well, perhaps, but then to pry them out of the gravity of a planet would be expensive as per resources.

If coming from the more inward part of the solar system, then perhaps to Mars, and if coming from Venus or even Mercury, then perhaps the Earth/Moon.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-03-20 09:48:38)

Void · 2024-03-21 08:18:50

From the previous post:

I am just speculating but I think that a different type of cycler might be useful as well. A single planet cycler. You could have many of those. And those might have permanent populations. Unlike two planet cyclers, they would simply have a periodic encounter with a particular planet. But they may at times be able to change which planet.
So there could be different types of cycler:
1) Cycler(Ballistic Capture Type. (The least inertia)
2) Cycler(Dual Planet Type) (Medium inertia)
2) Cycler(Single Planet Type) (Largest inertia)
A ship from Earth/Moon or other planet might hitch a ride on any of these. But #1 might be light enough to push itself to a point where Ballistic Capture to a planet might be possible. Of course #2 and #3 could do that as well, perhaps, but then to pry them out of the gravity of a planet would be expensive as per resources.
If coming from the more inward part of the solar system, then perhaps to Mars, and if coming from Venus or even Mercury, then perhaps the Earth/Moon.

In dealing with terrestrial crossing asteroids, it might be convenient to move some of their mass to either Venus or Mars orbits. It might also be possible to convert some of their mass into cyclers, under control.

So, for Mars, not only Phobos/Deimos/Mars materials could be available, but also materials directed into Ballistic Capture into Martian orbit.

So, for Venus, not only materials from Phobos/Deimos/Mars might be moved to Venus orbits using aerobraking, but also materials from terrestrial crossing asteroids.

1) Cycler(Ballistic Capture Type. (The least inertia), hosted to Phobos/Deimos/Mars, could escort ships from Mars, to Venus or Earth. These would not be permanent cycles, but would from time to time end in Ballistic Capture to Mars. These also could escort ships between the three planets Venus, Earth/Moon, Mars, as might be suitable.

But Martian orbit would be the place to refill certain types of propellants, and to dry dock the Cycler(Ballistic Capture Type. (The least inertia), devices.

So, although a Starship type device might be capable of moving people between planets, the Cycler(Ballistic Capture Type. (The least inertia), could improve safety and comfort in the travel episode.

There are various types of propellants that could be available in Martian Orbit. Obviously, Methane and Oxygen might be possible, but the Hydrogen and perhaps the Carbon for that would have to come from Mars itself. Argon from Mars might also be a possibility.

But from the moons and asteroids, materials for Mass Driver Propulsion could come.

The Neumann Drive is a new possibility, but it is very young, I do not know if it can scale up to propel such a process as is in this post.

Materials from Phobos/Deimos/Asteroids/Mars could also be used to build solar sails both photon type and magnetic types.

It may also be possible to have metal fuels and Oxygen as a method, that is considered for the Moon.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2024-03-21 08:31:07)

Void · 2024-03-22 11:17:19

Well, I am going to appropriate a post from Spacenut and go to the Moon now: http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 47#p220647 Quote:

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 28,730
Email
Branching Aerospace firm Northrop Grumman, which will be designing the system US unveils wild plan to build a train network on the Moon

From Spacenuts quote of Spacenuts post: https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/technolo … ef6e&ei=71 Quote:

US unveils wild plan to build a train network on the Moon

I thought I saw comment of robots to do the building, so it may be possible to do.

I can imagine that Lunar Starship may become true. If so, then I expect it will fly some missions. But overtime as production of resources from Lunar raw materials may emerge such a ship may not be a need to continue with.

I anticipate a more "Mini" type of ship to be created. So then with the production of at least Oxygen on and around the Moon from Lunar raw materials, it would not be necessary to refill a Lunar Starship with a large number of supporting starships to fill the ship in an elliptical Earth orbit. This could make things more practical.

It also seems to me that for ships to go beyond Earth/Moon, refilling Oxygen in Lunar orbit from Lunar raw materials will make sense before embarking on a trip to Mars.

So, it looks like the Moon can become a very big thing.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-03-22 11:28:50)

Void · 2024-03-22 12:04:23

I am very excited about robots on the Moon, somewhat autonomous, but also to some extent teleoperated from the Earth and perhaps space stations, and moon bases. Once the "Makers" were established on the Moon, I fail to see many limits to what could be built.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-03-22 12:12:45)

Void · 2024-03-22 12:48:40

Now that I am back at the Moon, I am also excited by a topic started by (th) where Dr. Johnson also has participated: http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 85#p220685

I want to return to the surfboard heat shield idea for Lunar Starship.

The surfboard would be a working payload. That, is, it would perform a service in helping a Lunar Starship to achieve a lower Earth orbit by aerobraking, and then after would be recycled/repurposed into other things.

As I do not know the proper term for it, I will use the word "Aerobraking Footprint". The aerobraking surface total, more or less.

A Surfboard could have more "Aerobraking Footprint" than is demonstrated for Starship at this time. I don't know if the device would dip far enough into the atmosphere that motorized flaps would help navigation. Navigation would involve skipping off of the atmosphere, and so then developing a lower energy orbit of the Earth than one that could intercept the Moon. If the flaps are not enough then you would need some kind of thrusters. Probably you would need thrusters in any case.

The surfboards could likely be made from Lunar Materials for the greater part, I expect.

Lacking a reference of any sort, I could imagine an "Aerobraking Footprint" of 4.0 which might be 4 times as much as a currently existing Starship. So, then the hope would be considerably less heating than would be true for Starship, but of course aerobraking would be for the inertia and weight of the Starship and the Surfboard.

I am thinking that the surfboard would have a backing of metal, and forward aerobraking surfaces of Oxides of materials. So, then the surfboard after the aerobraking event would provide metals and also Oxygen for salvage.

Some of the Oxygen then extracted could serve as propellants for trips back to the Moon. Metals can also be propellants by several possible methods.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-03-22 13:03:40)

Void · 2024-03-22 16:11:48

I took a look at the idea of rockets from Moon materials and was surprised to find that some interesting things do apparently exist: https://lunarpedia.org/w/In-Situ_Propellant_Production
Quote:

In-Situ Propellant Production

Stupid me, I never thought they could do this: Quote:

Aluminum
Is is proposed that aluminum could be used as a fuel. This would have the advantage of virtual inexhaustability, as aluminum makes up a significant percentage of the moons crust. One downside is aluminum's high melting point(compared to other propellants), which would make conventional bi-propellant fuel processes difficult.
One proposed solution to this problem is to mix finely powdered aluminum with liquid oxygen, adding a small amount of fumed silica to the mix. The result would be a gelled monopropellant which would provide an estimated specific impulse of 285 seconds[4], the same as with sulfur. This approach has been tested on a small scale, and was determined to be reasonably stable.[5][6]
Tests were also conducted by NASA, with actual tested ISP's of about 130 seconds. "Powdered Aluminum and Oxygen Rocket Propellants: Subscale Combustion Experiments".

Query: "Powdered Aluminum and Oxygen Rocket Propellants: Subscale Combustion Experiments".
General Response: https://www.bing.com/search?q=%22Powder … 16&pc=U531

I am very surprised about the claim of a paste of LOX and Aluminum powder, that can be pushed into an engine as a monopropellant. I would not expect that. Aluminum particles may be surrounded by an Oxide layer. Perhaps that is how it does not explode and burn, until exposed to a strong heating.

But that is one thing that has bugged me about rockets on the Moon, that I do not want to see organic chemicals used except when necessary, and I did not see how metals could effectively be a propellant. Apparently, they can be.

So, robots on the Moon could build a lot of things and make endless amounts of rocket propellants.

It's a good thing, I guess. We do not have to resort to exotic methods of propulsion like Mass Drivers, until much later.

But what would this mean for working with asteroids? They also may have lots of Aluminum and Oxygen.

And so might Phobos and Deimos, but that remains to be discovered.

Anyway, interesting to me at least.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-03-22 16:51:42)

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